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S Koreans boycott Japanese beer

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By Claire Lee

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This is getting ridiculous. I have traveled to South Korea roughly a dozen times a year for 15 years for business and this is meaningless. I usually see nothing but Hite, Cass, or OB when I am out to eat. I think Japanese beer is rarely consumed in Korea (but maybe I am missing something).

There may be a drop in consumption but I think it is probably a drop in consumption of an already not so frequently consumed product.

22 ( +27 / -5 )

Good on Korean beer drinkers. I don't think that Japanese beer is all that good to be honest. It always has been very over-rated.

-21 ( +15 / -36 )

@Tokyo-Engr

 I think Japanese beer is rarely consumed in Korea

Japanese beer had the 30% market share of the direct retail beer market(Bought at supermarkets and Convenience stores by consumers) before the Consumer driven Boycott hit Japanese brands.

By the latest statistics, consumer purchase of Japanese brand beer is down 40%.

Same thing with Japanese brand cars, down 40~47%. Lexus saw the biggest drop at 47%.

-7 ( +9 / -16 )

A brainwashed nation.

32 ( +45 / -13 )

A brainwashed nation.

@Speed. If you are talking about South Korea, maybe not brainwashed, but pragmatic.

-29 ( +11 / -40 )

Samit - interesting that the figure is so high. I would not have expected it to be at that level. When in Korea I do not really buy beer from markets.

As an American doing business in both countries (and I like both countries....just happen to live in Japan) I wish the politicians (and I mean the leaders of each country) would sit down and talk to each other.....maybe over a cold beer. But this is the real world and I do not see this happening. It is too bad as I see the good in the people of both countries and I think both countries would benefit tremendously if they cooperate with each other and set the past aside.

15 ( +16 / -1 )

I don’t get it. They are hurting themselves/their businesses and repressing their own needs in order to hurt Japan?

Those Japanese beers come from breweries located in S.Korea.

Guess who will be out of job is the sales keep slumping? S.Koreans that’s who.

Either there’s Something wrong in South Korean waters or they are all brainwashed.

Pitiful.

23 ( +28 / -5 )

@Tokyo-Engr

I would not have expected it to be at that level. When in Korea I do not really buy beer from markets.

Korea had a screwed up alcohol tax law that penalized domestic brewers, so domestic beers tended to be watery, driving consumers toward imported beer. There was even a joke of how North Korean beer tasted better than the Southern beer.

That alcohol tax law was fixed recently and domestic beer can now compete with imported beer on even term, but it pushed consumers toward imported beer that both cost less and taste better due to higher alcoholic content.

-1 ( +13 / -14 )

"Asahi beer has always been very popular among my customers," he said. "But I'm willing to make this sacrifice for my country."

What a patriot... I'm sure Abe is quaking in his boots because you wont buy some beer.

19 ( +25 / -6 )

@Hachidori

Guess who will be out of job is the sales keep slumping?

No job loss since those breweries will now brew for domestic brand.

-19 ( +5 / -24 )

Samit Basu

No job loss since those breweries will now brew for domestic brand.

You are well aware that your people are not really fond of their domestic brands.

Give it 2 more weeks. They will come around, buy the Japanese drinks and consume it at home far from judgmental eyes.

This won’t be the first time.

21 ( +27 / -6 )

You are well aware that your people are not really fond of their domestic brands.

Give it 2 more weeks. They will come around, buy the Japanese drinks and consume it at home far from judgmental eyes.

This won’t be the first time.

When I was stationed in Korea, the Koreans I knew preferred American cigarettes because Korean cigarettes were weak, but they had to keep the cigarette packages hidden so other Koreans didn't see them smoking American ones. It will be the same with beer soon enough.

24 ( +28 / -4 )

@speed

What makes Korea a brainwashed nation?

The people there are willing to stand up for themselves and fight for what they want. They wanted huge workplace and workers rights reform and they boycotted Korean companies until the Government was forced to pass laws and now Korea has much better work life balance than those here in Japan.

They stood up against their president. They stood up against many industries. I’m confused about the meaning of brainwashed?

-14 ( +15 / -29 )

What makes Korea a brainwashed nation?

Because despite the fact that it is clearly hurting their nation, they are encourage to hold a grudge for over 70 years.

24 ( +35 / -11 )

So they normally don't like girly beers, Cass, Hire, Kloud etc, preferring instead to drink Sapporo, Asahi etc...BUT, they'll be patriotic and drink girly beer instead?

IMHO, if they can't get their beer priority right, how on earth are they going to do anything else well?

Message to all beer drinking pepple of Korea - swim accross the pond if you have to, but drink what you want to drink, not what a puny politician has manipulated you into drinking.

13 ( +20 / -7 )

Because despite the fact that it is clearly hurting their nation, they are encourage to hold a grudge for over 70 years.

What exactly is "clearly" hurting their nation?

-13 ( +7 / -20 )

I'm surprised with the enthusiasm for the country of SK people. Japanese people should learn it. But I'll drink Asahi super dry with some authentic kimuchi after working. It's the best.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Great! More beer for the rest of us! Cheers!

7 ( +13 / -6 )

Just like in the States, the media and/or government are engines of narratives to get the population to be suckers and not think for themselves. From what I see, Japanese like Korean food and Koreans go to Japan to live, work and enjoy.  Always the suits with negative ego that want beef.

10 ( +11 / -1 )

Remorse is felt but demanding it eliminates most if not all regret.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

"One customer said just by looking at Asahi beer, it makes them angry,"

Really? When I look at Asahi beer it makes me happy.

19 ( +25 / -6 )

Samit Basu

No job loss since those breweries will now brew for domestic brand.

So you're saying the Asahi brewery in SK is going to start brewing Hite beer. Yeah, ok

13 ( +15 / -2 )

Who cares !!.. More beer for us !!.. Childish korean crybabies..

7 ( +12 / -5 )

Ridiculous. SK "beer-lovers" will be the ones who miss out in the long term, Kirin, Asahi etc will shift exports to other nations in the region. There is a huge boom in Japanese beer all around the world as beer lovers find out how amazing Japanese beer tastes. Now Korea beer drinkers must drink Hite... its awful lol!

9 ( +15 / -6 )

This all has nothing to do with economy or trade. Is this ancient hatred koreand have towards the Japanese.

It's like, because being South American, like I would stay hate Spain.

Even Israel people have no quarrel with Germany.

Japan changed. Grow up korea.

11 ( +18 / -7 )

@extanker

Because despite the fact that it is clearly hurting their nation, they are encourage to hold a grudge for over 70 years.

So you are saying that any injustices they suffered in the past are irrelevant and they should just let it go? Rape, torture, subjugation and more for decades. They should just let it go. Its nothing serious. Also, an agreement between a lowly third world country and an economic power. Do you really think that agreement was fair? Because those were the roles of Korea and Japan respectively in the 1960's.

Here is a question. Do people of Jewish descent still let the holocaust go? Do black and white Americans still let slavery go?

Also, where is the clearly hurting their country part? I didn't know unification against a common thought and choosing to divert more of your home earned money towards home grown products classified as clearly hurting your country.

-13 ( +7 / -20 )

So you are saying that any injustices they suffered in the past are irrelevant and they should just let it go?

Irrelevant? Of course not. I never said anything of the sort. They should always remember their history.

But to still have hatred for Japan after 70+ years of Japan showing that they have clearly changed? Absolutely they need to let that go.

Here is a question. Do people of Jewish descent still let the holocaust go? Do black and white Americans still let slavery go?

Actually, yes, they have.

Please show me where there is a Jewish boycott of German products because of the Holocaust? They remember their history, they don't wallow in it.

You seem to have this mistaken impression that letting something go means forgetting it, when it only means stop using it as an excuse for anger and hatred after nearly a century.

15 ( +18 / -3 )

Also, where is the clearly hurting their country part? I didn't know unification against a common thought and choosing to divert more of your home earned money towards home grown products classified as clearly hurting your country.

Well the whole technology export sanction thing comes to mind...

10 ( +11 / -1 )

@JJ Jetplane

and now Korea has much better work life balance than those here in Japan.

Sure, with a 52 or 56 hours work week. Great place for workers to be.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

Idiots

7 ( +9 / -2 )

South Korea and Japan are both democracies

Many people thank that Japan is democracy, and I also had thought so. But recently I found it is not at all. The bureaucratic system of Japan is similar to PR China, orchestrated, inflexible and irresistable, but certainly it is not per se under one-party dictatorship. Press freedom seems O.K., but recently it became at a dangerous level. Distortion, misinformation and exaggeration, controlled by the Japanese government and business are well known, and many obedient Japanese people are prone to it.

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/30/672423391/japan-times-newspaper-redefines-comfort-women-and-forced-labor

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/05/world/asia/japan-media.html

https://rsf.org/en/japan

Fortunately there are some civil groups and individuals who fight for press freedom of Japan.

http://justice.skr.jp/moon/moon.html (Japanese)

-12 ( +8 / -20 )

I've never, ever purchased a Korean product in all over 18 years in Japan.

Does that count as a boycott? Or is it just that, in a free market, I can purchase or not purchase whatever I like?

I don't think I'm alone in this either. It's why South Korea boycotting Japanese items in their country sounds so childish and ineffective.

All it does is demonstrate just how dependent South Korea is on Japan, and why they are taking the loss of preferential treatment with Japanese exports so badly.

9 ( +14 / -5 )

JJ JetplaneToday  08:27 am JST

@extanker

Because despite the fact that it is clearly hurting their nation, they are encourage to hold a grudge for over 70 years.

So you are saying that any injustices they suffered in the past are irrelevant and they should just let it go? Rape, torture, subjugation and more for decades. They should just let it go. Its nothing serious. Also, an agreement between a lowly third world country and an economic power. Do you really think that agreement was fair? Because those were the roles of Korea and Japan respectively in the 1960's.

Here is a question. Do people of Jewish descent still let the holocaust go? Do black and white Americans still let slavery go?

Looking at those non-Korean people like yourselves and stereotyped statement, being brainwashed this much, no wonder these Korean people are deeply and incurably brainwashed by series of lies in it's falsified history narratives.

3 ( +9 / -6 )

It is not just beer the Koreans are boycotting ,is it?

The Koreans are hoping that this boycott will show their displeasure of the Japanese government’s policy towards Korea.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

They want to boycott Japanese products and Japan wants to curb exports. Where is the problem in this relationship? If Japan stop all exports, it's even better. It is called win-win.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

IMO, S. Koreans don't know much about the taste and quality of beer, because of the bizarre tax regulation on alcohol beverages in S. Korea. Most beer in S. Korea is consumed for making 'bomb shot", which means that the quality and taste does not matter at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_shot

But recently a few products of local ale beer have been tried, and the future seems bright. https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/south-korea-craft-beer-magpie-brewing/index.html

Regarding Japanese alcohol beverages, Japanese whisky is surprisingly superb. Also I prefer traditional shochu from sweet potato to sake. Local beers in Hokkaido were impressive.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

"One customer said just by looking at Asahi beer, it makes them angry," she told AFP, adding that she hopes South Korea and Japan end their animosity so that "both of the countries prosper".

LoL, can you say coockooo...

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Wow! Boycotting Japanese beer? No things are getting serious! It’s just another petty ploy by SK.

Let’s see a ban on tourism and exports of TV dramas and k-pop. Then I’ll start to believe SK is serious.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

You know what South Korea and Japan have in common? They both love watery weak beer. They should take that fact and use it to get along better, no use it to fight more.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Yay! More Japanese beer to drink and share! My preferred beer is Japanese. They just taste better.

Let the Koreans do what they do best, boycott and scream injustice. We watch them while we drink Japanese beer. Yah?

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Seems to me the only appropriate response is for Japanese to boycott K Pop!!

That will hit 'em where it hurts!

:-)

7 ( +7 / -0 )

"

SJToday  09:25 am JST

South Korea and Japan are both democracies

Many people thank that Japan is democracy, and I also had thought so. But recently I found it is not at all"

SJ got downvoted heavily for this, but sadly they are partly right. Japan has a VERY effective illusion of freedom. They are ranked around very low when it comes to freedom of press and freedom of speech and such things the represent a TRUE democracy. Just yesterday a few hecklers at an Abe speech, in public (not at a closed rally or speech), yelled "no new taxes". Plain closed police forcibly removed these people. If that isn't oppressive. I don't know what is. The government all but 100% controls the news outlets and media. Sure Japan is nice and safe and peaceful... but it definitely comes at a price that the vast majority of people have are unaware they are paying.

-4 ( +6 / -10 )

 There is a huge boom in Japanese beer all around the world as beer lovers find out how amazing Japanese beer tastes.

You're blinded by your own jingoism there.

Just about every country on the planet brews several brands of generic, inoffensive lager, utterly lacking in character or interest. And that's exactly what Japan's leading breweries are putting out.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

@zones2surf

Seems to me the only appropriate response is for Japanese to boycott K Pop!!

Japanese teen girls and young women don't care about Abe san's oyaji business.

@JapanTimes

South Korea and Japan are both democracies and U.S. allies

Japan is not a democracy, this is so obvious to outsider observers but Japanese themselves don't seem to understand what qualifies as a democracy and what not.

To qualify as a full democracy, there should have been at least three peaceful transition of power between parties. Korea had four transitions, so it passes the standard. Taiwan had three transitions, so it also qualifies as a full democracy. Japan had only two transitions, with no prospect of the third transition, so Japan is not a democracy, but a single party state like China.

-12 ( +4 / -16 )

Do the hustleToday  10:03 am JST

Wow! Boycotting Japanese beer? No things are getting serious! It’s just another petty ploy by SK.

Let’s see a ban on tourism and exports of TV dramas and k-pop. Then I’ll start to believe SK is serious.

Given how dispensable Korean 'entertainment' is, and how globally popular Japan is as a tourist destination, I think these two areas - if boycotted - would be very quickly filled by some other competitor.

In other words, South Korea boycotting anything Japanese won't do anything other than massage some very fragile egos.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

wipeoutToday  10:35 am JST

generic, inoffensive lager, utterly lacking in character or interest. And that's exactly what Japan's leading breweries are putting out.

Well let's put that to the test, shall we?

Since there's an article today about Asahi Breweries buying out CUB in Australia, let's have a look at a liquor retailer there has on its 'Beer' page, under the "Popular beers" tab:

https://www.danmurphys.com.au/beer

Yep, you guessed it, Ashai Super Dry, with an award winner label, 4 stars from 133 reviews... all lamenting that it's brewed locally now and not in Japan anymore!

This is in Australia... where the beer market is saturated to the ninth degree.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

IMO Asahi isn’t a great beer but it’s drinkable. HITE beer in South Korea tastes like dog water. Their loss.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Most outrageous action from a democracy. Childish!

As far as mind control is concerned, no difference between North and South Korea.

Let's see how long they can survive without Japanese beer.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Beer seems almost nothing to be boycotted now. S Korea should have boycotted much more important things made in Japan from the independence of S Korea. It has too much depended on one country for too long time. That's why S Korea is now in a big panic.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Well let's put that to the test, shall we? Since there's an article today about Asahi Breweries buying out CUB in Australia, let's have a look at a liquor retailer there has on its 'Beer' page, under the "Popular beers" tab:

https://www.danmurphys.com.au/beer

Yep, you guessed it, Ashai Super Dry, with an award winner label, 4 stars from 133 reviews... all lamenting that it's brewed locally now and not in Japan anymore! This is in Australia... where the beer market is saturated to the ninth degree.

Yes, it's Australia, long known for rubbish beer. And that's probably why people are discussing flavour differences in a particularly rubbish beer, even by Japan standards, Asahi Super Dry. Have the Australians made it taste even worse than the Japan-brewed version? It's tempting to say "Knowing Australian beer, very possibly" but the real answer is, "Would it matter?".

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

From the above:

Tokyo says its trade restrictions -- targeting key chemicals used in making gadgets -- were made necessary by a "loss of trust" in relations with Seoul, while also accusing South Korea of improperly handling exports of sensitive materials from Japan.

This has been bandied about to the point of nausea by the Japanese press and the Abe government and has remained vague as ever. Either this is unbridled stupidity or clumsy but deliberate obfuscation.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

I love all the "how dare they not buy Japanese beer" comments.

What makes Korea a brainwashed nation?

The people there are willing to stand up for themselves and fight for what they want. They wanted huge workplace and workers rights reform and they boycotted Korean companies until the Government was forced to pass laws and now Korea has much better work life balance than those here in Japan.

They stood up against their president. They stood up against many industries. I’m confused about the meaning of brainwashed?

@JJ Jetplane - Well said. SK has recently deposed a president they felt was doing a terrible job.

SK is a far more democratic nation than Japan. SK has a higher freedom of press index (SK sits at 41st, Japan at 67th. source: https://rsf.org/en/ranking ). Japan has essentially become a single party government where individual freedom and liberties are sacrificed for the common good (look at Fukushima residents).

If South Koreans choose to not buy Japanese products in light of recent developments, it's their choice. The yelling at the cloud calling them 'brainwashed' etc is laughable.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Great! More beer for the rest of us! Cheers!

Really? When I look at Asahi beer it makes me happy.

alwaysspeakingwisdom

I do not condone the action of the Koreans. But your arrogance is just as bad as them.

Jeong Deok-rye, a 52-year-old restaurant owner in Seoul, said customer complaints had forced her to remove Asahi beer from the menu.

"One customer said just by looking at Asahi beer, it makes them angry," she told AFP, adding that she hopes South Korea and Japan end their animosity so that "both of the countries prosper".

Good on this lady.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Ridiculous. SK "beer-lovers" will be the ones who miss out in the long term, Kirin, Asahi etc will shift exports to other nations in the region. There is a huge boom in Japanese beer all around the world as beer lovers find out how amazing Japanese beer tastes. Now Korea beer drinkers must drink Hite... its awful lol!

Sorry, mate. Asahi and Sapporo beers sold in Australia are brewed in Australia. So what you say is not happening here. Good luck with other Asian countries.

By the way your patriotism of Japan as a foreigner really amazes me. Keep it up, mate. I look forward to your next patriotic post.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

SK is a far more democratic nation than Japan.

Is your only source rsf.org?

According to this site, the situation is different:

https://freedomhouse.org/report/countries-world-freedom-2019?order=field_fiw_aggregate_score&sort=asc

In particular, it's interesting the ranking about the Freedom on the Net, where Japan is considered "free", while South Korea "partly free":

https://freedomhouse.org/report/countries-net-freedom-2018

I guess different organizations have different parameters and methods. I can speak only according to my personal experience in terms of net. I noticed South Korean press on line is way more, more nationalist than Japanese press on line (I mean the press of their newspapers in English).

In these days, I didn't see in any main Japanese newspaper any support for some kind of boycott of Korean goods, while if you go in South Korean newspapers, there's plenty of articles that speak about the boycott of Japanese goods, and you can feel clearly they are written in a way that share and promote that action.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

@ Alejandro Coyle

This all has nothing to do with economy or trade. Is this ancient hatred koreand have towards the Japanese.

It's like, because being South American, like I would stay hate Spain.

Even Israel people have no quarrel with Germany.

Japan changed. Grow up korea.

How has Japan changed?

The leaders still worship the war criminals, distort history, downplay the comfort women issue, claim Korean territory, renege on their statement that individuals have the right to claim damages despite the 1965 treaty, use the rising sun flag, downplay and backtrack apologies etc. These actions prove no closure to the past in the eyes of the victims. They are still constantly reminded of the past because of the Japanese government's actions. So what change are you referring to?

You are right in that there is a deep distrust for the Japanese. And who can blame them. Koreans have been attacked by Japan almost every single year for over 1000 years. Eg. invasions every 300 years, pirate attacks annually, burning and ransacking of historical cities, kidnapping of artisans etc. etc. For 99% of the history, Korea has been attacked by Japan in one form or another. Only in the recent 70 years has Japan not attacked Korea - albeit physically. Instead the government does it psychologically through un-remorseful actions inflicting pains of the victims.

How dare you tell Korea to grow up when Japan has not even been remorseful for her actions?

The apologies made by the Japanese government are lip service. Any criminal can apologize but it's the actions that follow that truly indicate whether they are remorseful or not. Japan for her part has not acted remorsefully for a successful closure.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

@JJ Jetplane Today 07:31 am JST

The people there are willing to stand up for themselves and fight for what they want. They wanted huge workplace and workers rights reform and they boycotted Korean companies until the Government was forced to pass laws and now Korea has much better work life balance than those here in Japan.

If that's true, I'm duly impressed, but I'm sure you know where the brainwashed appelation comes from. I actually prefer extremist to brainwashed. Just so that we are on the same page, Extremism is when you are willing to take disproportionate measures to get what you want. The presence or absence of underlying facts does not change this charge - rather it is what you honestly believe are the facts, what you think should be the end state, and the correspondence of the measures you take to the societal norm.

A nation willing to run roughshod over international law over an event over 50 years ago may be termed Extremist. The alternate theory is that they are Hooliganist. Hooliganism is when you have an unhealthily low valuation of such things as law, order or rights of other people (such as Japanese.)

So which better describes the Koreans - their goal as just so unacceptably important to them OR other people's rights and interest so unimportant to them? Either way, this is not healthy.

@SJToday 09:25 am JST

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/30/672423391/japan-times-newspaper-redefines-comfort-women-and-forced-labor

Look, SJ, you can't say people are undemocratic just because they choose to use more neutral language...

http://justice.skr.jp/moon/moon.html

OK, people. I've discussed this. In "South Korean political parties back Moon in Japan trade row", July 19, 11:18 am JST.

https://rsf.org/en/japan

Sigh. The kisha club bit aside, how does getting a certain amount of criticism, or a law that would punish you for leaking secrets compare in any way to Korea's criminal prosecutions? 

A problem with Reporter without Border is its reliance on a questionnaire with questions like "What are the factors apparently preventing the creation of independent, privately owned media?" with ratings of 1 through 10. The meaning of 1 (no political/religious block) and 10 (impossibility) are relatively objective, but everything in between is subjective and affected by the answerer's expectations. A country where the reporters expect more can actually score lower than a country where they expect less, even though the first country is objectively better (and thus created those increased expectations)! 

Even questions like "Do private media have to adjust their content in exchange for state subsidies?

" can be affected by knowledge. A person who heard a rumor of a small change will report Yes. A person who is unaware of complete revisions because information is so tightly controlled in his country will vote No.

They really should have a system of "fixed downgrades" for specified "offenses" - lose twenty positions for any prosecution, another 30 for conviction and so on. Otherwise, we may have a situation where people are prosecuted but the country's mark doesn't go down because all the reporters are Patriots who feel the prosecuted guy had it coming.

@stepoutsidetheboxToday 10:34 am JST

Just yesterday a few hecklers at an Abe speech, in public (not at a closed rally or speech), yelled "no new taxes". Plain closed police forcibly removed these people. If that isn't oppressive. I don't know what is.

It might have been genuine concern for public safety. While it isn't the best day for Japanese freedom of speech, how does this compare to criminal prosecutions of people who say the wrong thing in Korea?

@Samit BasuToday 10:40 am JST

Why is 3 the magic number? Besides, there were a number of transfers, from LDP to "New" in 1993, then to "Renewal" and then Socialist before going back to LDP, and then there was another transfer to Democratic and the reverse transfer. So, more than three.

However, I do suspect that Japan is not a fully multi-party state, for the reason that the other parties don't have the organization, connections or experience required for effective rule even if they are given the spot. We saw this the few times people from other parties became prime ministers. But then, it could just be that the LDP is good enough at reading moods and not making anyone too dis-satisfied to stay on.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

If Korea is what it is today it is thanks to Japan and all the technology that Japanese companies have given them.

Poor Korea, instead of advancing they walk backwards.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

The Taiwanese love the Japanese and they were occupied as well. Get over it Korea.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

@Alex80 - Thank you for drawing my attention to this. I was not aware of Freedom House. However, any reason why you linked 2018 data, and not the 2019 data? Both countries are classified 'free' according to the latest report.

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2019/map

If Korea is what it is today it is thanks to Japan and all the technology that Japanese companies have given them.

Poor Korea, instead of advancing they walk backwards.

@F***ko - So SK should be thankful to Japan? Righto..

And if SK citizens choose to continue to consume Japanese beer they are moving forward, but if they boycott Japanese beer on the back of a recent retaliatory move by Japanese government they are going backwards? Got it.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

The leaders still worship the war criminals, distort history, downplay the comfort women issue, claim Korean territory, renege on their statement that individuals have the right to claim damages despite the 1965 treaty, use the rising sun flag, downplay and backtrack apologies etc. These actions prove no closure to the past in the eyes of the victims. They are still constantly reminded of the past because of the Japanese government's actions. So what change are you referring to?

QFT. Anti-Japanese sentiment in SK has increased since the right wing Abe government came into power. It was much less 10 years ago.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

^ Well put. It is difficult for those educated in Japan to form such an opinion. The rhetoric here is about the superior Japanese people who helped Korea out of poverty only to be badgered and poked at by the ungrateful Koreans.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

Japan is restricting exports to SK. 

SK is fighting back with boycott movement

Why are people talking nonsense saying SK is walking backward, brainwashed, etc?

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

The Taiwanese love the Japanese and they were occupied as well. Get over it Korea.

@shona

http://www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/AJ201808150047.html

"Ma Ying-jeou, left, Taiwan's former president, looks on as the statue symbolizing “comfort women,” a first in Taiwan, is unveiled at a ceremony in Tainan on Aug. 14."

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/taiwan-activists-demand-japan-apologise-over-sex-slaves

"TAIPEI (AFP) - Around 200 Taiwanese activists protested outside Japan's de facto embassy in Taipei on Wednesday, demanding Tokyo apologise and compensate women forced to work as sex slaves during World War II."

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3506511

"TAIPEI (Taiwan News) – A protest was held outside Japan's representative office in Taipei on August 14, to mark International Memorial Day for Comfort Women and to call for an apology and compensation from the Japanese government."

But I suppose you think all of them are lying or brainwashed, and only the Japanese politicians are telling the truth?

BTW SK loves to holiday in Japan, and they are often the largest source of foreign visitors to Japan, when not just a shade behind China. Roughly 1/4 of Uniqlo's international sales are from SK (on par with North American sales), and 30% of imported beer consumed in SK are Japanese. The only time there is anti-Japanese sentiment is when it comes to political disputes.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

@ shonanbb

The Taiwanese love the Japanese and they were occupied as well. Get over it Korea.

Your comment is quite naive and ignorant.

First, the degree of brutality inflicted upon the countries is not even comparable between Taiwan and Korea. There were in excess of 200,000 comfort women from Korea, while only 1,000 from Taiwan. Most of the human experiments were on Koreans, not Taiwanese. Most of the massacres were on Koreans and Chinese, not Taiwanese. Koreans were mobilized to Japan, Sakhalin, Far east Russia, etc, to serve the Japanese, not the Taiwanese. More Koreans died participating in Japan's imperial ambitions than the Taiwanese. In other words, more Korean families were affected than the Taiwanese.

Second, a third of the Taiwanese population back then did not even live in occupied Taiwan. They fled communist China to Taiwan after Japan surrendered. China is a large country and I would say that more than 80% of people did not even see a Japanese soldier during it's occupation. The Kuomintang therefore would never have such a negative view of Japan.

Third, of the actual people that lived in Taiwan under Japanese rule, the Japanese extensively brainwashed the people saying that the occupation was better for them. Koreans were not that naive.

I have Taiwanese friends and although they don't hate the Japanese, they don't love them like you say they do.

Koreans want closure for sure. But it's the Japanese government's sincere apology that will only work.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

@Heckleberry: I linked you two reports. The first one, about 2019 data, is about global freedom in a Country, and both Japan and South Korea are classified "free", but South Korea is way behind Japan. It's the same report that you linked to me. The second report is, like I had said, about specifically freedom on the net, and there's only the 2018 ranking so far. You are free to trust rsf more than Freedom House, that's only your personal choice. I wanted to show you that different organizations, have different results.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

What! Disgraceful! Hehe. I was like a kid in the candy store when I lived in Tokyo in 2014. I really like Japanese beer. Sapporo Gold being my fave but Asahi had some good off shoots (and some great can designs compared to our boring UK designs) and by the end of my time in Japan, I became a big Yebisu fan. I even went to the Ebisu beer factory 'tour'. It was great to see all the old Japanese bottle designs from the 1880s there. I also discovered an amazing Japanese / Yebisu version of Guinness there. If they sold that in the UK, it would be a sure fire winner. If South Ks don't want the Japanese beer, then send them over here, I'll drink it!

3 ( +4 / -1 )

HeckleberryToday  01:29 pm JST

SK is a far more democratic nation than Japan. SK has a higher freedom of press index (SK sits at 41st, Japan at 67th. source: https://rsf.org/en/ranking ). Japan has essentially become a single party government where individual freedom and liberties are sacrificed for the common good (look at Fukushima residents).

41st mounts 67th. What a low race, regardless of the accuracy of the ranking.

I just wish to read articles of Chosun online and Korean Joongang Daily Moon forced to delete

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@showchinmono: again, you could be interested in Freedom House reports that I linked, that show basically the opposite situation. It's up to people trust an American organization (Freedom House) more than a French organization (rsf), or viceversa. My point is that people can't show that they are absolutely right, bringing only one source, like Heckleberry did. Different sources tell different stories.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Alex80Today  06:28 pm JST

@showchinmono: again, you could be interested in Freedom House reports that I linked, that show basically the opposite situation. It's up to people trust an American organization (Freedom House) more than a French organization (rsf), or viceversa. My point is that people can't show that they are absolutely right, bringing only one source, like Heckleberry did. Different sources tell different stories.

Yes I know. It's too obvious, not only about freedom of press but also about the freedom of opinions, which country can ones openly disclose their opinions. Just look at what happened to those professors, politicians, K-Pop girls, those ordinary citizen who just uploaded their Japan-tour photo.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Wonder how long S Koreans can boycott Japanese beer? one year? Forever? When they went overseas soon / maybe Japan, they will surely buy Japanese beer there if they can't forget Japanese one is very good taste in Korea. That is a reality.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Japan to form such an opinion. The rhetoric here is about the superior Japanese people who helped Korea out of poverty only to be badgered and poked at by the ungrateful Koreans.

Thumb up to you, mate.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Why are people talking nonsense saying SK is walking backward, brainwashed, etc?

Because like some Koreans who have unrelenting hatred towards Japan, there are Japanese or foreigner living in Japan who have unrelenting hatred towards the Koreans.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@yaponezy closure? Your joking right?If they really want closure why does the SK blackmailing japan over the wartime labor to get what they want? And also japan want the SK governments to re-investigate the treaty but why does the SK governments reject it?

7 ( +8 / -1 )

yaponezyToday  06:01 pm JST

@ shonanbb

The Taiwanese love the Japanese and they were occupied as well. Get over it Korea.

Your comment is quite naive and ignorant.

First, the degree of brutality inflicted upon the countries is not even comparable between Taiwan and Korea. There were in excess of 200,000 comfort women from Korea, while only 1,000 from Taiwan. Most of the human experiments were on Koreans, not Taiwanese. Most of the massacres were on Koreans and Chinese, not Taiwanese. Koreans were mobilized to Japan, Sakhalin, Far east Russia, etc, to serve the Japanese, not the Taiwanese. More Koreans died participating in Japan's imperial ambitions than the Taiwanese. In other words, more Korean families were affected than the Taiwanese.

Second, a third of the Taiwanese population back then did not even live in occupied Taiwan. They fled communist China to Taiwan after Japan surrendered. China is a large country and I would say that more than 80% of people did not even see a Japanese soldier during it's occupation. The Kuomintang therefore would never have such a negative view of Japan.

Third, of the actual people that lived in Taiwan under Japanese rule, the Japanese extensively brainwashed the people saying that the occupation was better for them. Koreans were not that naive.

I have Taiwanese friends and although they don't hate the Japanese, they don't love them like you say they do.

Koreans want closure for sure. But it's the Japanese government's sincere apology that will only work.

I enjoyed all these craps. Well done. especially " The Kuomintang therefore would never have such a negative view of Japan." who actually fought against Japan. Bu ha ha. But I advise you to get appropriate license from Taiwanese to speak on behalf of Taiwanese.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@ Lone Cabal, @yoshisan88

South Korea is not blackmailing Japan.

If you read the "Agreement on the Settlement of Problems concerning Property and Claims and on Economic Co-operation" made between Korea and Japan, the reparation included all claims for property including those raised at the individual level. But such properties only include confiscated land, food, machinery, resources etc. of individuals. That is, "Property".

Claims for damages made by individuals as compensation for inhumane acts such as sufferings, rape, torture, accidents, human experiments, murder, etc. are not even included. That is, "Damages".

If you have a drive and accidentally hit a person, your insurer is not going to pay you if you only have property damage cover (which covers accidents with other cars and other property). You need liability insurance for the insurer to pay damages to the injured person.

The Japanese government at that time didn't want to include the word 'damages', as it meant they admitted their colonization was illegal which they were ashamed of.

However, the Japanese government in 1991 admitted twice, through Yanai Shunji, in the Japanese Diet that an individual’s right to file a claim had not been terminated due to the 1965 bilateral agreements.

Furthermore, the 1996 U.N. resolution by Commission On Human Rights recommended that Japan accept legal responsibility and pay compensation to individual victims of Japanese military sexual slavery, which Japan refused erroneously arguing that it is all covered under the blanket 1965 treaty.

Yet even more recently, Taro Kono told reporters that a victim’s individual right to file a claim had not expired when Korea's Supreme Court verdict was upheld last year. It's funny how he now changed his stance saying that Korea violated the 1965 bilateral treaty.

The Abe government's stubborn stance and backtracking are all to avoid paying damages, not just to the South but to North Koreans. Just wait and see how the Japanese government will react after all the victims are dead. By then, it will be too little too late.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Wonder if there was any racist rhetoric and name-calling including allegations that the whole country is "brainwashed", when Japanese boycotted SK with big drops (33% according to 2013 sources) in visitor numbers to SK when ex-SK president Lee Myung Bak visited Dokdo and the relationship between the two countries soured.

https://skift.com/2013/04/23/south-korea-tourism-drops-as-political-tension-with-japan-cuts-visits/amp/

I guess not, on JT it is accepted as truth that whatever Japan does is out of calm rational thinking, and whatever SK does is out of childish spitefulness.

Who is really brainwashed?

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

@yaponezy Today 08:33 pm JST

That's not what the treaty said. Here is what is said, from https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%20583/volume-583-I-8473-English.pdf

Article II

*1. The Contracting Parties confirm that [the] problem concerning property, rights and interests of the two Contracting Parties and their nationals (including juridical persons)*

The Property Bit is done here. And even that is really only because of the clarification in the Agreed Minutes, where they did say "2. Re Article II of the Agreement : (a) It is understood that "property, rights and interests" means all kinds of substantial rights which are recognized under law to be of property value ;"

Otherwise, under a plain reading those might well have ended here.

*and concerning claims between the Contracting Parties and their nationals, including those provided for in Article IV, paragraph (a) of the Treaty of Peace with Japan signed at the city of San Francisco on September 8, 1951, is settled completely and finally*

With no terms qualified, claims is unlimited and includes any possible damage claims.

The Japanese government at that time didn't want to include the word 'damages', as it meant they admitted their colonization was illegal which they were ashamed of.

How about, it was not on the law, and the Koreans want to claim such but realize they had a losing hand, and in the end chose to accept the actual formulation.

1996 U.N. resolution by Commission On Human Rights recommended that Japan accept legal responsibility

actually does say that. In fact, the term "legal responsibilty" appears exactly 8 times in the text. However, almost no reasoning is given in the text, other than

123. The basic claim by the Government of Japan that any attempt at asserting legal responsibility would imply retrospective application is met by the argument that international humanitarian law is part of customary international law.

and does not even attempt to engage the argument that this is included in the "claims" portion of the 1965 treaty. On the whole, the report is poorly done and is a fine example of the potential weakness of the inquisitorial approach, having only a relative few testimonies and yet somehow managing to blow it up to 200,000 victims on the basis of one "expert" (Yoshiaki Yoshimi, who else) and ignores the recommendations of its other expert (Ikuhiko Hata). Regardless of the actual facts, the idea that any party should suffer legal consequences from such a crappy report can only be seen as an affront to procedural justice.

individual’s right to file a claim had not been terminated

OK, very quick. First, international law does not care about your exact formulation and theories, as long as you can get to the right operative part. Second, the fact that in theory an individual had the Right to Claim (請求権) does not equate the ability of any legal body to grant them "relief". Finally, the "right to claim has been terminated" variant was actually preached by Korea until recently

*6 これに対し韓国政府は1965年の日韓請求権協定締結以来、同協定により被害者個人の請求権が消滅したとの見解に立っていた。ようやく日本政府が外交保護権放棄説に立っているこ とが知られるようになり、2000年に請求権協定で放棄されたのは外交保護権であり個人の請求権は消滅していないとの趣旨の外交通商部長官答弁が行われた。*

from http://justice.skr.jp/seikyuuken-top.html, SJ's favorite "Japanese lawyers".

5 ( +6 / -1 )

@Heckleberry: that article in your link doesn't prove in any way that drop was because of a massive boycott action induced by the media. Maybe most of Japanese were only afraid for the increasing anti-Japanese feelings in South Korea in that moment. Can you show me that there was a large "boycott South Korea" movement, supported not only by some right-wingers, but by a massive part of ordinary Japanese?

Currently, we have the confirmation that in South Korea also the nation's biggest online community dedicated to travel in Japan, is supporting the "boycott Japan" movement.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/tech/2019/07/694_272533.html

Korean press is proud to show these actions, so it's easy to find confirmation about what South Koreans are actually doing to promote anti-Japanese feelings.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

@ showchinmono

I enjoyed all these craps. Well done. especially " The Kuomintang therefore would never have such a negative view of Japan." who actually fought against Japan. Bu ha ha. But I advise you to get appropriate license from Taiwanese to speak on behalf of Taiwanese.

So tell me, how would the Kuomintang party benefit by promoting negative views of Japan to its citizens if the existing islanders and mainland escapees don't have negative views? My point had nothing to do with KMT defending China from Japanese attacks.

Shows the level of intelligence if one is to respond with 'these crap'. Truth may hurt, but the sooner you acknowledge it, the sooner Japan and Korea can move forward.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

Let them drink soju with their kimchi and bulgogi. It's a great combination.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@kwatt

Wonder how long S Koreans can boycott Japanese beer? one year? Forever? When they went overseas soon / maybe Japan, they will surely buy Japanese beer there if they can't forget Japanese one is very good taste in Korea. That is a reality.

Most beer brands for mass production are lager beer, but specialty beers that people can love are actually craft beer with small-scale local production. In Korea, more than 100 brands of import beer are available, and the Japanese brands accounted 22.3% in 2018, doubled in just 4 years.

Yes. I like Asahi beer, too. But my impression is that the taste differs between Japan and Korea. I suspect Korean version of Asahi bottled beer are actually produced in China. And in Japan, they take care of keeping a consistent temperature while delivering beer from the factory to the mart. But in Korea, they do not care so much, and the temperature can be too high, deteriorating the taste of beer, and the result is that there is no difference in taste between the lametable Korea lager brands and Japanese brands. And, for Qingdao beer, the most popular Chinese import brand, I was surprised that Chinese people boil it like tea before drinking, which means that temperature is not a factor at all in taste.

And, to Japan, S. Korea is the biggest buyer (63%): http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2019/04/694_245605.html

Personally I like craft ale beer. It is very expensive, but the quality is superb. As the FTA was agreed between EU and Korea, the sales of European beer is expected to increase dramatically in S. Korea. I look forward to seeing more European ale beer such as Goose IPA.

Anyway, the market share of Japanese beer in S. Korea is a minority, and the boycott is just a symbolic grassroot gesture, which I do not care, because I seldom drink Japanese beer.

My favorite Japanese beverages are shochu and whiskey, which are very cheap, but the quality is one of the bests. Regarding shochu, it costs just 1,000 yen in Japan, but here it is easily upto a price by a factor of 5 or more. In restaurant, it is even more than 7,000 yen, because of its rarity. But I do pay for it.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

And, I forget to mention that S. Korea is one of the biggest markets of alcohol beverages in the world. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/which-country-drinks-the-most-amount-of-alcohol-per-capita/news-story/5197f334dac288f10f21d56f903d3c94

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

yaponezyToday  09:59 pm JST

 

So tell me, how would the Kuomintang party benefit by promoting negative views of Japan to its citizens if the existing islanders and mainland escapees don't have negative views?

 

If KMT( and it’s soldiers) was not so negative despite they were the ones who fought bloody war, and existing islanders and mainland escapees didn’t have negative views, That’s just Taiwanese didn’t (and still don’t) have negative views toward Japan. Just as simple as that.

That’s just enough and no need for your crappy comparison with Korea.

 

Your post rather makes it sound as if Korean (ruler)s had good reasons and benefit by promoting negative views to Japan and Japanese and brainwashed extensively their people, saying everything Japan did was awfully evil. Well, that actually seems correct.

 

Shows the level of intelligence if one is to respond with stereotyped crap like '”Truth may hurt” , the sooner Korea acknowledge it, the sooner  Korea can move forward.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@ showchinmono

If KMT( and it’s soldiers) was not so negative despite they were the ones who fought bloody war, and existing islanders and mainland escapees didn’t have negative views, That’s just Taiwanese didn’t (and still don’t) have negative views toward Japan. Just as simple as that.

Finally, thank you, exactly my point.

As for the comparison with Korea, my answer was in relation to why Taiwan can forgive but Korea cannot forgive. To explain the difference obviously requires a comparison.

So speaking the truth about Japan's atrocities is considered brainwashing? Seems like you are the brainwashed person.

And for your information, the Korean's view of Japan began improving until the Abe government came in and started (yet again) whitewashing history, worshiping murderers, saying the comfort women were legal, reneging on individual claims, claiming Dokdo as its own etc. It wasn't the Korean government that brainwashed the people, it was the Japanese government that continued to show no remorse for its actions that got the Koreans angry. An apology isn't an apology until remorse is shown.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

I like Japanese beer, and I am a beer snob. It isn’t complicated or fancy, a good easy beer. Now, I love strong IPA and European beer more, when I am looking for something more serious... as far as this boycott goes... it is silly... time to move on SK... I will just have to drink more Asahi here in the U.S. to help with the exports!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@yaponezy Today 08:33 pm JST

In case you don’t understand what Kazuaki Shimazaki’s explanation, here is simplified analogy:

Assume You and I got in fight. You claim I hit you in your face and wants compensation for damage. While you are just claiming as such, it is just your "claim". When you sue me and a court made judgement you win, meaning your claim become substantiated by the court decision, your claim becomes your substantial right which is recognized under law to be of property value. But unfortunately you have no courts exists to help you to do so.

This analogy is not something I just made up but actually the one used by Mr. Minoru Tanba: FMAJ International Affairs Bureau Chief of UN division at Budget Committee of the lower house of the Diet  1993 May 26.

Also this is the reason, *"property, rights and interests" **as substantial rights which are recognized under law to be of property value and “the claim” as not those, were separately refereed to in the text of Article 2 in 1965.*

2 ( +4 / -2 )

With no terms qualified, claims is unlimited and includes any possible damage claims.

You should have read farther :

(g) It is confirmed that problem concerning property, rights and interests of the two countries and their nationals and concerning the claims between the two countries and their nationals, which is settled completely and finally as mentioned in paragraph 1, Includes any claim falling within the scope of the "Outline of the Claims of the Republic of Korea against Japan" (the so-called "Eight Items"), which was submitted by the Korean side at the Japan-Republic of Korea negotiations and that, therefore, no contention can be made with respect to the above mentioned Outline of the Claims of the Republic of Korea against Japan

So what are these 8 items ?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

yaponezy Today  12:41 am JST

As for the comparison with Korea, my answer was in relation to why Taiwan can forgive but Korea cannot forgive. To explain the difference obviously requires a comparison.

So speaking the truth about Japan's atrocities is considered brainwashing? Seems like you are the brainwashed person.

Speaking only Korean narratives as truth just proves you are heavily brainwashed. Japan's ruled both countries in the same way. But Taiwanese don't have as negative views, don't grudge, against Japan as Koreans. as simple as that. Basing the difference between 2 countries perceptions on some sort of unverified victim numbers and on some fabricated stories and lies is all you have done to excuse Korean character.

Just taking the cases of Yasukuni-visit, Rising sun Flag allergy, where you cannot make excuse by the difference in scale, Taiwanese were never as hysteric as Koreans. There were 200k Taiwanese soldiers for IJA, There were Taiwanese wartime laborers some of whom visit Japan in 2013 to join 70th ceremony. Taiwan has territorial dispute over Senkaku too.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

And one big difference is why there are still so many ( getting less and less as time goes on) of old Taiwanese people over there who still miss good old their Japanese days. I know there was a 95yr-old Korean men who got beaten to death on the street by paranoid lunatic youth like yourself just for missing his good old Japanese days.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@ Kazuaki Shimazaki @showchinmono

No, the treaty is as exactly as I mentioned (although I used layman's terms rather than legal gibberish).

But unfortunately you have no courts exists to help you to do so.

That is why, it is understood by both Japan and Korea that the properties, rights and interest refer to rights with clear and solid legal foundations.

Substantiated rights did not include claim rights, the latter being unsettled rights for which the legal foundation can be disputed. Therefore, compensation for damages were not even included in the substantiated rights.

With no terms qualified, claims is unlimited and includes any possible damage claims.

Actually, claims are specifically outlined as mentioned by @Flute in the 8 items.

Tanba-san also gave the following concrete examples to the Diet:

Property, rights and interest - "creditor rights, rights to collateral, and the right to demand receivables"

Claim rights - "claims for compensation for damages for which evidence is lacking, pain and suffering claims, and wage claims etc."

The Japanese government is fully aware that individual rights to claims have not been extinguished and spoke so on numerous occasions. It's unfortunate that the government today is back-flipping on that agreement.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

The japanese have a way of bullying and being passive aggressive. Not to mention stubborn. they are slow to apologize and make amends with their past wrongs. They will mistreat and abuse someone, and when the other party reacts, they want to make them look bad. Meanwhile, trying to showcase to the world that they are 'hardworking', 'respectful', and 'harmonious'. But it is only about themselves and their rules/culture.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

@ showchinmono

*Speaking only Korean narratives as truth just proves you are heavily brainwashed. Japan's ruled both countries in the same way. But Taiwanese don't have as negative views, don't grudge, against Japan as Koreans. as simple as that. Basing the difference between 2 countries perceptions on some sort of unverified victim numbers and on some fabricated stories and lies is all you have done to excuse Korean character.*

Just taking the cases of Yasukuni-visit, Rising sun Flag allergy, where you cannot make excuse by the difference in scale, Taiwanese were never as hysteric as Koreans. There were 200k Taiwanese soldiers for IJA, There were Taiwanese wartime laborers some of whom visit Japan in 2013 to join 70th ceremony. Taiwan has territorial dispute over Senkaku too.

Right, so everything was the same. Same number of soldiers, same number of comfort women, same number of massacres, etc. Therefore, since Taiwanese don't hold a grudge against Japan so Korea shouldn't either. Believe that brainwashed propaganda if you like,

But lets just assume everything was the same.

Did Japan invade Taiwan every 300 years, ransack their merchant ships and ports every year, kidnap artisans, monks and skilled laborers, destroy their ancient cities, assassinate a royal family member, across a span of more than a 1000 years, and furthermore divide Taiwan in half?

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

@showchinmono

Just curious why the Japanese government enacted the following act:

Act on Measures in Relation to Property Rights of the Republic of Korea and Others Incidental to Enforcement of Article 2 of the "Agreement Between Japan and the Republic of Korea Concerning the Settlement of Problems in Regard to Property and Claims and Economic Cooperation"

この協定を実施するために、日本では「財産及び請求権に関する問題の解決並びに経済協力に関する日本国と大韓民国との間の協定第二条の実施に伴う大韓民国等の財産権に対する措置に関する法律」という国内法を制定し、この法律によって、法律上の根拠に基づき財産的価値が認められる全ての実体的権利、つまり財産、権利及び利益を消滅させました。

https://www.taro.org/2018/11/%E6%97%A5%E9%9F%93%E8%AB%8B%E6%B1%82%E6%A8%A9%E3%83%BB%E7%B5%8C%E6%B8%88%E5%8D%94%E5%8A%9B%E5%8D%94%E5%AE%9A.php

The Japanese government invalidated the individual's right immediately after making the 1965 treaty, which suggests that they also recognized the individual's claim is still valid, and invalidated within Japan by making the above act.

This act made by the Japanese government was one of the reasons why the supreme court of Korea in 2012 interpreted that the individual's claim is still valid in S. Korea.

If you still do not understand it, please read the following opinion of a Japanese professor: https://imidas.jp/jijikaitai/d-40-138-19-02-g765

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

@showchinmono

And one big difference is why there are still so many ( getting less and less as time goes on) of old Taiwanese people over there who still miss good old their Japanese days.

...there are still so many....???

Believe your utopia propaganda where a few have been interviewed to represent the majority.

You talking with unverified numbers as facts just shows your double standard when it comes to giving evidence.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@Flute Today 12:48 am JST

Good catch. I'll concede you that and it'll be unsporting not to give you a LIke. But it doesn't really damage my position, since it is "include". So as a minimum (not maximum), it includes whatever is in those Eight Items, which admittedly I've heard but don't have a copy of. However, these items can only either be within the Eight Items in which case this would directly apply OR it is not within the Eight Items in which case it'll still fall within the literal interpretation of "claims" in the agreement proper. either way, the Koreans aren't getting away.

@yaponezy Today 02:44 am JST

Claim rights - "claims for compensation for damages for which evidence is lacking, pain and suffering claims, and wage claims etc."

In other words, claims do include any hypothetical damages, right? So, no escape on that front.

The Japanese government is fully aware that individual rights to claims have not been extinguished and spoke so on numerous occasions.

It is not "backflipping" so much as people are unable to understand the more complicated formulation. I again point out that the Individual Right to Claim has been extinguished variant is actually the Korean version before they heard of the Japanese one and backflipped to a position they presumably hoped was more advantageous.

Either formulation is fine in international law, since both versions are compatible with the text, so long as it isn't interpreted to create a new obligation, since that would be incompatible with the text.

It is perfectly possible for a right to exist but be unenforceable because of higher level concerns. For example, take self-defense. Attacker's right to health is arguably not "extinguished", but yours took priority so he cannot get anything. But he does have a right, and he can file a claim - he just won't and shouldn't win.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@FluteToday 12:48 am JST

So what are these 8 items ?

As nobody replies, I link the related internet documents:

https://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/%E9%9F%93%E5%9B%BD%E3%81%AE%E5%AF%BE%E6%97%A5%E8%AB%8B%E6%B1%82%E8%A6%81%E7%B6%B1 (in Japanese)

http://www.mofa.go.kr/www/brd/m_4081/view.do?seq=323815&srchFr=&srchTo=&srchWord=&srchTp=&multi_itm_seq=0&itm_seq_1=0&itm_seq_2=0&company_cd=&company_nm=

(in Korean)

A detailed interpretation of this document in relation with the 2018 court ruling by a Japanese professor is as follows:

https://imidas.jp/jijikaitai/d-40-139-19-02-g766

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@SJToday 03:43 am JST

https://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/%E9%9F%93%E5%9B%BD%E3%81%AE%E5%AF%BE%E6%97%A5%E8%AB%8B%E6%B1%82%E8%A6%81%E7%B6%B1

Oh, interesting and very welcome.

https://imidas.jp/jijikaitai/d-40-139-19-02-g766

Sigh, OK, let's go over it...the first comment is that a lot of this is from a 殷勇基 and the entire document created by a 朴順梨. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but they sound a lot like Koreans.

つまり日本政府は、法的用語の『解決』を、『完全解決ではない』と意味に理解してきたのです。」(殷勇基氏)

This accusation is simply inconsistent with the facts, since the operative parts of both solutions are the same (no money).

日本政府はなぜ個人請求権が消滅していないと言うのか?

This must be a popular conspiracy theory, and ignores any possibility that it is a good faith ruling. If the goal is not to make a payout, there are many legal logics that can be proferred, and this idea would just change "Why did you give up our right to claim?" to "Why did you abandon your duty to fight for us?", so it arguably won't even immunize them.

Also, as he acknowledges later, "diplomatic protection" was at least the Japanese position from a fairly early stage, Extinguishment was the Korean government's old position. They then changed to the "diplomatic protection" position. So, would 殷勇基 say the Korean government is just being a coward and dodging its rightful responsibility with this change? Would not Estoppel block this despicable move?

旧見解なら〈日韓請求権協定で『解決』といっても個人の権利は残っている〉わけですから、日韓請求権協定を理由に日本政府は韓国の判決を否定できません。

日本政府の新見解だと、被害者は裁判にはもちこめなくなってしまうわけですが、訴訟の外で自発的に支払うことは問題ありません。つまり、日本政府の新見解でも、韓国の判決に従って新日鉄住金が訴訟外で賠償金を支払うことを日本政府は否定することができません。

Again, this lawyer (probably Korean), who is either stupid or malicious, puts the cart before the horse. In science, Theory is subordinate to Observation. In law, Theory is Subordinate to Text. The incompatibility of an Order to Pay versus the Text is manifest, and that is the sole basis required for a Refutal of the judgment.

ところが、この8項目の請求は、全て日本の植民地支配を合法とした前提のうえでなされたものです。今回の大法院判決では、植民地支配自体が違法だったとしており、その前提が異なっています

According to the material you've provided, nothing in the document requires a pretense that the annexation was legal. The idea that the Koreans went in acknowledging the annexation was legal is a new one and would seem to be contradicted by the rather ambiguous "もはや無効" formulation finally chosen (which he actually reviews in his next section).

If however, that is the case, Korea's position will not improve due to Estoppel. Having already conceded the legality of the annexation, they cannot reverse course 50+ years down the line and use it as a basis for a money grab.

仲裁委員会を設けて解決策を探るべきです」(吉澤文寿氏)

They are doing that now. The Koreans are resisting. Some people are even making up legal theories as to why they can't.

殷勇基 ends with his Korean colors showing in the plain air with lines like "1)『何年何月どこどこで、こういう事実があった』というようなかたちでキチンと加害の事実の認定をしたうえで(事実認定)、(2)賠償として支払をするなど法的な責任を認めて謝罪し(法的評価)、(3)さらに被害者が受けた悲劇について将来世代への教育を約束する(将来教育)、という3点を踏まえてほしいと思います。"

The idea that maybe there is no need to pay doesn't even cross this one's mind...

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Both countries make excellent beers. If Japanese beer is not purchased in Korea, that makes more available for me.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

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