Dealers swamped by worried Toyota drivers in U.S.

Wow, who woulda thought.

Long ago, Toyota was a good brand. But they decided to try to take over the world, and quantity now outpaces quality.

ilcub76 -- agree with the sentiment of your comment, but I would not predict the downfall of Toyota just yet. However, don't let sfjp330 read your opinion. He's still convinced Toyota is the world's "best managed" car company. Ignoring of course their record loss last year, and predicted one again this year. Personally I feel Toyota is sort of like JAL. They benefited from years of goverment intervention/protectionism, but now must face competition head-on, since the government cannot afford to intervene in the exchange markets anymore, and the Japanese car market is shrinking, so that does not provide the cushion it once did for Toyota. Going forward, China and India will determine Toyota's fate, and the jury is still out as to whether they will enjoy success in those two markets.

Does this only happen in the US? No recall in Japan? Does this mean that floor mats were not a problem after all?

They are definitely sweating it out in Nagoya right now, this plus the strong yen, plus US banking concerns, plus competition. Expect that region's economy to freeze over, followed by Tokyo and the general economy taking another blow.

Does this only happen in the US? No recall in Japan? Does this mean that floor mats were not a problem after all?

No. Japanese floor mats very special. Best quality. Not cheap barbarian floor mats like America.

jerseyboy -

thanks for the comment! I once worked for a supplier of Toyota and saw first-hand how the quality has fallen. Toyota has a habit of telling suppliers to cut the price of their products, resulting in a fall in quality. Cars like the Corolla, Tacoma, and Camry are produced in massive numbers (Camry -- 2000 per day), so companies send them anything and everything because they know Toyota won't look at it closely.

To gaijintraveller - Don't forget about Europe. They're selling the same cars over there as well.

CTS Corp -Makes you wonder what other models that are not Toyota are involved also -Pontiac Vibe etc.

jerseyboy at 09:45 AM JST - 28th January. He's still convinced Toyota is the world's "best managed" car company. Ignoring of course their record loss last year, and predicted one again this year. Personally I feel Toyota is sort of like JAL.

What a joke. Get your facts right. In November, 2009, Toyota Motor Corp. reported a surprise quarterly profit and slashed its annual loss forecast by more than half as sales and cost cutting beat its forecasts, putting it on track to follow Japanese rivals into the black next year.

The current problem has been traced to a factory in Indiana that makes the faulty part. CTS Corporation - ELKHART, Ind . As part of my TQM (Total Quality Management) studies at TRW, I learned that Japanese manufacturers are able to machine parts to tighter specifications that American manufacturers. Maybe they shouldn’t use American companies for critical parts like brakes and accelerators where tolerances are critical.

So whose BAD is it?

The current problem has been traced to a factory in Indiana that makes the faulty part. CTS Corporation - ELKHART, Ind . As part of my TQM (Total Quality Management) studies at TRW, I learned that Japanese manufacturers are able to machine parts to tighter specifications that American manufacturers. Maybe they shouldn’t use American companies for critical parts like brakes and accelerators where tolerances are critical.

Wow, hopefully Toyota will fully release these findings to the market so we can analyze them in depth. Do you have a source for this information?

Just a quick review indicate CTS has only beena Toyota supplier since 2005. Shenanigans!! The recall goes back way earlier than that...

gaijintraveller at 09:58 AM JST - 28th January

Does this only happen in the US? No recall in Japan? Does this mean that floor mats were not a problem after all?

Gaijintraveller: The article answers many of your questions. It's a US supplier making the gas pedals for the models covered in the recall. Toyota is also saying the same part is used for some vehicles made in the US, and sold in Europe. In other words, this particular gas pedal mechanism issue applies only to vehicles made in the US with the CTS gas pedal. Rav4's and Camry's that are sold in Japan are made in Japan, therefore do not apply. The other vehicles in this recall are not sold in Japan.

As for the floor mat, Toyota is saying that is a separate issue. Honestly, I think everyone sees it as a separate CAUSE to the same PROBLEM which is UNINTENDED ACCELERATION. Google this term on the net and you will find loads of info on it.

In the meantime, here is an article I found with some additional info on the part in question:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/01/toyota-still-selling-recalled-vehicles-government-to-ask-supplier-cts-who-else-bought-same-pedals/1

Also, an in-depth article on this news:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35103217/ns/business-autos/

Junnama at 11:32 AM JST - 28th January

Just a quick review indicate CTS has only beena Toyota supplier since 2005. Shenanigans!! The recall goes back way earlier than that...

Junnama: The recall goes back only to 2005. The unintended acceleration issue goes back to '99.

Recalled vehicles: • 2009-2010 RAV4 • 2009-2010 Corolla • 2009-2010 Matrix • 2005-2010 Avalon • 2007-2010 Camry • 2010 Highlander • 2007-2010 Tundra • 2008-2010 Sequoia

Tahoochi at 01:30 PM JST - 28th January

Rav4's and Camry's that are sold in Japan are made in Japan, therefore do not apply. The other vehicles in this recall are not sold in Japan.

Correction... should read:

Rav4's, Camry's, Corollas, and Highlanders that are sold in Japan are made in Japan, therefore do not apply. The other vehicles in this recall are not sold in Japan.

Junnama: The recall goes back only to 2005. The unintended acceleration issue goes back to '99.

Yes, you are right...

However. I am sensing a "pass the blame to the supplier" trick going on here. Toyota is a very small customer for CTS and there products are sold throughout the world without quality issues...the same can not be said for Toyota...

theres a design fault and it would look likely that this is a electrics issue not the pedal. its incredible how long theyve managed to hide this. what is also interesting is it isnt news in japan i wonder why

Amazing what a little rusty accelerator cable will do - part probably costs less than a $1.

Junnama at 01:57 PM JST - 28th January

However. I am sensing a "pass the blame to the supplier" trick going on here.

This suspicion is certainly understandable, especially since many other car makers have done so in the past, but this paragraph out of a USA Today article tells me otherwise:

Toyota balks at discussing suppliers, though it had to name CTS in its recall report to NHTSA Thursday. "We consider this a genuine Toyota part, no matter who makes it," Hanson says. "It's not the supplier's responsibility. It's ours."

Link: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/01/toyota-still-selling-recalled-vehicles-government-to-ask-supplier-cts-who-else-bought-same-pedals/1

"A private firm said it had identified 275 crashes and 18 deaths because of sudden, uncontrollable acceleration in Toyotas since 1999."

Isn't this the same group that also found more than 2,000 reported incidence and not just a few hundred like Toyota claims ? Maybe it's time for the US government to do a full scale investigation into Toyota, before any more innocent American lives are lost to defective products. I sense a class action suit sometime in the near future.

Tahoochi, you seem to be spending a lot of time deflecting the problems away from Toyota and onto the parts suppliers or the American worker. Absolute nonsense ! Toyota is responsible for the parts and quality of machinery that goes into their automobiles. Toyota does all of the inspections and decides whether or not the final product is to be released to the public. The responsibility therefore is 100% Toyotas !

"A private firm" = "Lawyers with dollar signs in their eyes" As I've said before, the most important thing is that Toyota fixes the problem now. And compensation for past cases should only be provided to those who were injured or killed, only for the cases in which Toyota is found guilty of.

Branded at 03:03 PM JST - 28th January

Tahoochi, you seem to be spending a lot of time deflecting the problems away from Toyota and onto the parts suppliers or the American worker. Absolute nonsense !

Branded: Please read my post and link VERY CAREFULLY @ 02:50 PM JST - 28th January

I have said it before; Yes, I am a Toyota car owner, and a fan of the company since they were the "underdogs" of the Big 3 dominated auto industry, but I must say they are in some deep doo-doo now. I also believe that Toyota has changed greatly for the worse in the past decade.

Toyota balks at discussing suppliers, though it had to name CTS in its recall report to NHTSA Thursday. "We consider this a genuine Toyota part, no matter who makes it," Hanson says. "It's not the supplier's responsibility. It's ours."

The whole "it's the driver's fault" line being used means people will suspect they are passing the blame unless this is their message loud and clear.

its common policy for them to cover problems up and lie. they seem to have known about this for 7yrs. its their 8th recall for it.

in japan after a seperate steerage problem caused a death j police discovered toyota had been convering the problem up for almost 10yrs

Nice to see the American government witch hunt is having the effect they want - buy American cars and support the government. Free markets, what a lie.

I had ONE sudden acceleration experience with my turbo Volvo. The gas pedal hit the floor all by itself (my foot was standing on the brake - car is automatic transmission). With all the electronics jammed into today's cars...no small wonder. Solution: turn off the ignition (if you have the presence of mind to NOT panic). I wonder if this is solely related to automatic transmission vehicles? Kudos to Toyota for taking responsibility.

Tahoochi writes:

"As I've said before, the most important thing is that Toyota fixes the problem now."

No they don't ! The vast majority of their auto recalls are for defective cars built years ago ! And if they are so interested in fixing their cars "now", why are they dragging their feet on these current recalls ? Toyota has refused to accept responsibility for the thousands of reports, hundreds of injuries, and numerous deaths to date. How can you honestly say Toyota is "fixing the problem now" ? Just because you are a fan and owner doesn't sound openly objective to me. I'm more concerned about more deaths and injuries than promoting this outfit. Toyota has obviously placed much more emphasis on becoming the worlds #1 auto maker than consumer safety. Americans will simply not tolerate such unethical actions- not by any company or organization- especially a foreign one !

"Sean Kane, director of Safety Research and Strategies, a consumer group that conducts research into motor vehicle safety issues, said his firm has identified 2,274 incidents of sudden unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles leading to at least 275 crashes and 18 deaths since 1999."

Can you imagine the media hysteria that would engulf Japan if these numbers were about any American product in Japan ? And I just love this little ditty-

"Toyota will almost certainly face lawsuits."

Like Duh !

Nice to see the American government witch hunt is having the effect they want - buy American cars and support the government. Free markets, what a lie.

This is the way Japan does it. Turnabout is not fair play?

Branded at 04:18 PM JST - 28th January

How can you honestly say Toyota is "fixing the problem now" ?

I didn't. I've already asked you to read my post carefully on a separate occasion Branded. I said it is important that they fix it now... as in "Dear Toyota, please fix this problem immediately!" I didn't say they are fixING it now.

Americans will simply not tolerate such unethical actions- not by any company or organization- especially a foreign one !

"Especially a foreign one"????? Huh? So people dying is somehow worse if the company involved is Japanese??? I think you should take a look at what your "ethical" American auto makers have done in the not-so-distant past...

Ford, 1996: Faulty ignitions - After denying the problem for five years, Ford finally issued a recall for 8.6 million vehicles in 1996 after 875 consumers complained about the ignitions causing small vehicle fires. This was the largest auto safety recall in history. The models included Mustangs, Tempos, Topazes, 1988-93 Escorts, Cougars, Thunderbirds, Grand Marquis, Crown Victorias, Lincoln Town Cars, Aerostars, F-Series trucks and Broncos. http://www.wheelscene.com/car-top-fives/vehicle-recalls.aspx

...

Ford, 2000: Faulty tires - Ford Motor Company's handling of the recall of the 6.5 million 15-inch Firestone tires fitted to the Ford Explorer SUV. This soon culminated in the resignation of Ford's CEO at the time, Jacques Nasser. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_controversy

...

GM, 1998: Chevrolet Malibu incident - Failure to recall resulted in multiple fatal occurrences. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_recall

The above list goes on for American companies in different industries responsible for negligence in the past, yet they have somehow survived... I don't want to get into a "who's had more recalls and controversy" touting match here, but you're attitude which seems to single Toyota out as "an evil foreign company" really stinks. As far as I'm concerned, whether Toyota has been negligent or not still remains to be seen. But then again, Joe Public ALWAYS wins the lawsuit in America, and is ALWAYS perceived as the victim in the public and media's eyes, so I might as well give in and blame Toyota for everything!

I bet it was a combination of the black box and the hardware. But I am thinking it is mostly the black box.

Computers have done wonders in so many areas, but I guess we have all noticed the "system failures" that are part of the equation. When things go smooth, they really go smooth, but when they go bad, they go really really bad. Aviation traffic control to your personal information to the autos above.

I cant say the old way was better, but I never heard of my Grandpas old Ford having a sticking problem with the accelerator. And if it did have a problem, you did not need sophisticated technology to "diagnose" the problem.

Pros and cons, I guess.

Are the "machines" taking over? Big theme in science fiction and todays science fiction more often than not becomes tomorrows reality. Especially when you are reading the good writers like Isaac Azimov or Michael Crichton.

Something to ponder.

And, no, this is no trade issue. Moreover you must go to extremely insane lengths so somehow blame America for this. But somehow they do it anyway. Americans like their Japanese cars for good reason. And a lot of the Japanese autos are built IN the US by American workers. Sure, a lot of money comes back to Toyota Japan at the end of the day and why not? They are making many of the cars consumers want.

But this accelerator problem.

"Sean Kane, director of Safety Research and Strategies, a consumer group that conducts research into motor vehicle safety issues, said his firm has identified 2,274 incidents of sudden unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles leading to at least 275 crashes and 18 deaths since 1999."

These numbers jibe with Toyota`s own numbers with the addition of over 2,000 incidents.

When it comes right down to it, let`s say you own one of the cars? Not so easy to rest easy regardless of the stats, now is it?

Someone is going to get unlucky sometime. It could be you.

Better safe than sorry.

Anyway, sometimes things DO go wrong.

Good to keep a battery powered radio in the house.

Just call me old-fashioned.

It seems to me that the "great company" Toyota has largely changed since they become number one. A little humble approach would do good.

Tahoochi asks... "Especially a foreign one"????? Huh? So people dying is somehow worse if the company involved is Japanese??

I didn't say Japanese, I said "a foreign one". Unfortunately, in this case, it's Japanese. Now if you think my opinion is so shocking- just imagine if this was GM, Chrysler, or Ford in Japan and thousands of incdence reports had been filed, hundreds of accidents occured, and numerous citizens had been killed. Just imagine the media hysteria, the anger, the government reaction, hmmm can you say "gyoza" ?

And this;

"I don't want to get into a "who's had more recalls and controversy" touting match here"

Wise decision, because I guarantee that Japanese firms have produced more products that have killed Americans than vice versa. Bridgestone, Yamaha, Toyota etc. The numbers are staggering !

Finally,

"you're attitude which seems to single Toyota out as "an evil foreign company" really stinks."

Too bad ! I say "if the shoe fits- wear it "! Toyota, a Japanese owned and operated company, has been producing defective dangerous products for years. In addition, they have been deceiving US consumers by hiding data and manipulating various test results. The results have been deadly. Their day in court will come soon. And when the verdict is handed down I hope to see "tahoochi" here with the old hat in hand offering apologies.

SebastianFlyte: there is no accelerator cable - it is an electronic link between the accelerator pedal and the engine management system. That's the real problem, not floor mats and faulty pedals...

I guess it's not just "worried US drivers" now. It looks like the poo has officially hit the fan. Another "Million Plus" cars are now being recalled here in the USA- this on the backside of the 68 year old women who plowed her 2007 Camry into a laundromat in Pennsylvania yesterday I guess. As if that wasn't bad enough, Toyota stocks are down 8% in two days with another mass sell off today. The blogosphere is blowing up over here with people coming out of the woodwork to complain, criticize, and demand the US government intervene in this whole mess. Toyota has been obviously backpeddling, but now finds itself on the ropes. The lawsuites will be of historical proportions I imagine. Hell, even non Toyota owners are now getting into the act- saying they don't want to be on the same road. In the meantime I imagine GM, Chrysler, and Ford execs are licking their chops at the opportunities that await. They have been watching Toyota execs make one blunder after another- I'm sure this will all be apart of some US Uni lesson plan on corporate ethics down the road. In the meantime, sit bac and watch the fireworks- Imagine, another million recalls, is there no end ?

randed at 04:18 PM JST - 28th January. No they don't ! The vast majority of their auto recalls are for defective cars built years ago ! And if they are so interested in fixing their cars "now", why are they dragging their feet on these current recalls ? Toyota has refused to accept responsibility for the thousands of reports, hundreds of injuries, and numerous deaths to date. How can you honestly say Toyota is "fixing the problem now" ?

Toyota as accepted responsibilty. Where is the responsibity of Ford Executives for the last two decades? Ford expanded its largest ever recall by about 4.5 million vehicles equipped with a faulty cruise-control switch linked to at least 550 vehicle fires nationwide, and the destruction of many homes and other properties. Ford has now recalled more than 14 million vehicles in eight separate recalls over a 10-year period because of the problem. Since 1999, the Ford has recalled over 10.4 million Ford, Lincoln and Mercury cars, SUVs and pickup trucks due to faulty cruise control switches, which can corrode overtime and catch fire.

"Toyota as accepted responsibilty."

No they haven't. They continue to drag their feet, deflect responsibility (Hmm, must be the floor mats- or the supplier- or the American worker), and deny that there is anything wrong or the problem is a vast as is being reported by outside sources. Ford ? Off topic for one and second, you are talking about "cruise control switches"... not the damn brakes, steering column, body chassis, or roof protection ! Just how many people were killed ? Maimed for life ? Sent to the hospital with anything more than minoe injuries ! Not to mention the fact that Toyota is "not" an American company ! They were invited into the US to provide products for a temporary need back in the 70's. They should have been shown the door during the Reagan administration when Japanese government officials started criticising the American work ethic. We have now come full circle- it is the Japanese with the poor work ethic, and it is killing Americans !

Again sfjp330- your focus on the big three reeks of denial and deflection much like the executives at Toyota. I'll point out a few main differences in your example, the biggest one being Americans weren't being killed and maimed by the hundreds like these defective Toyotas are doing- and then to have the upper brass deny the allegations for years while more Americans get killed and sent to emergency room hospitals. "Oil leaks" ? "Possible fire" ? A far crime from "family of four killed when Toyota races out of control, shoots through an intersection, flips over, and bursts into flames at better than 120 miles per hour". Enough of your nonsense sfjp330, you obviously care more about your precious Toyota and their corporate image than about saving lives- especially American ones.

Branded at 06:14 PM JST - 28th January

I didn't say Japanese, I said "a foreign one".

Since when is Japan not a foreign country to the US? At any rate, I was implying that your comment was a little racist if you ask me, because you said ESPECIALLY a foreign one as opposed to something like... "whether domestic or foreign".

Anyways, we obviously disagree on many issues here, but I realize that there have been many fatal and non-fatal crashes involving Toyotas, and I'm not denying that Toyota is ultimately responsible (pending full investigation), AND I also have already said that they need to fix this problem immediately! ...so you just keep going on your little rant about "getting rid of the foreigners" and get your little kicks out of the D3 "licking their chops at the opportunities that await" as you put it, because if that's what is most important to the D3 out of all this mess, then they're not much better than Toyota. What did you say? oh, "we have now come full circle..." no, actually it's an on-going cycle, and everyone takes a hit at some point in time, and it's definitely Toyota's time right now. The question is, as I have been saying, will they take the right actions? and will they recover? I think yes.

Why is it when people can't engage the discussion rationaly they start throwing out terms like "racist, arrogant, ranter" etc. ? It seems my little "rant" is pretty much in line with the ranters over at "US business and world report" who agree-

-"The sales and production stoppage suggests an even bigger problem, with lots of legal liability."

-"That will cost Toyota millions, maybe billions, of dollars. It already ranks near the top in the annals of corporate meltdowns, and it's not necessarily over."

-"GM, meanwhile, is poaching Toyota customers with special financing and other incentives, along with cars that go the speed you want them to."

As for Tahoochis big question-

"The question is, as I have been saying, will they take the right actions? and will they recover?"

First, "no" they are not "taking" the right actions- they are being forced to by the US government with more fallout later in February after the inquiry.

And Second, "No" I do not believe they will recover from this. Three continents, the depth and scale of the scandal, Toyota's slow response and obvious irrelevant finger pointing, and the fact that Toyota's have been in decline for years now already should be enough to turn consumers away. Toyota may recover in Japan where nationalistic buying trends dominate the car market, but even there I think they will need government handouts and maybe even banruptcy protection.

Branded: It doesn't really matter how "US business and world report" relates to what you are saying, because they are probably talking in terms of "business" and "reporting", whereas your words are more like accusations and claims based on what you've read on the internet, or discussed with your "Buy American" UAW buddies.

I consider myself familiar with how Toyota does business (I work with several ex-Toyota managers), and I've also actually experienced "Unintended Acceleration" myself, which, by the way was in a Dodge, and after believing there was definitely something wrong with my car, I found out first-hand that there were absolutely no issues with the vehicle.

Now I'm not saying that everything on the internet is bullsh*t, or that I know everything, but rather, I'm just trying to make sense of everything from what I see, hear, what I've experienced, and what I know (I trust that you are too). Even if this were a scandal like you say, I don't think it would sink Toyota, but that's something we obviously "agree to disagree on".

In the meantime Branded, check this article out. It's about lawyers actually now trying to STOP Toyota from fixing the problem without approval from the government. I guess it's a reminder that sometimes, you just can't win no matter what you do, and that some people are relentless in trying to make some money by finding fault in something they don't even understand, while forgetting the whole point of an issue at hand.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/lawyers-ask-court-to-stop-toyota-from-fixing-cars/