GM, Honda plan to co-develop affordable electric vehicles

That sounds like very promising, although I wonder if GM needs Honda. GM has long been the global EV industry leader, having developed the world's first mass-produced EV of the modern era. The current Chevy Bolt would have been the best affordable EV ever if its reputation weren't ruined by its flawed and dangerous Korean batteries. Hopefully Honda won't let GM down in the same way. Why doesn't GM go it alone?

GM wants to get into the Japanese market. That's the only reason to work with Honda.

A standard EV uses a 1,000-pound battery that contains 25 pounds of lithium, 60 pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside the battery are something like 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells.

 Looking upstream at the ore grades, it's estimated that the typical quantity of rock that must be extracted from the earth and processed to yield the pure minerals needed to make that single battery is:

 • Lithium brines typically contain less than 0.1% lithium, so that requires some 25,000 pounds of brines to get the 25 pounds of pure lithium.

 • Cobalt ore grades average about 0.1%, thus nearly 30,000 pounds of ore.

 • Nickel ore grades average about 1%, thus about 6,000 pounds of ore.

• Graphite ore is typically 10%, thus about 1,000 pounds per battery.

 • Copper at about 0.6% in the ore, thus about 25,000 pounds of ore per battery.

So in total, acquiring just these five elements to produce the 1,000-pound EV battery requires mining about 90,000 pounds of ore. To properly account for all of the "earth" moved though, which is relevant to the overall environmental footprint, and mining equipment energy use - we need to estimate the materials first dug up to get to the ore (overburden). Depending on ore type and location, overburden ranges from about 3 to 20 tons of earth removed to access each ton of ore.

This means that accessing about 90,000 pounds of ore requires digging and hauling between 200,000 and over 1,500,000 pounds of earth - ****a rough average of more than 500,000 pounds per battery. The precise number will vary for different battery chemistry formulations, and because different regions have variable grades of ores. It should be noted that this total footprint doesn't take into account the large quantities of materials and chemicals used to process and refine all those ores. The other materials used when compared with an ICE car, such as replacing steel with aluminum to offset the weight of the battery, or the supply chain for rare earth elements used in electric motors (neodymium, dysprosium) have not been counted. Also excluded from this is the related, but non-battery, electrical systems in an EV that use some 300% more overall copper compared to an ICE car.

In other words, EV's aren't all unicorns and rainbows.

Jeff lee: after the 2008 cash Japan car maker went head hunting on the USA defunded car makers. They hired the best that USA workers maker could not hold on to because Japan car makers were offering big pay pack plus great accommodations. So GM must of lost workers to Honda and this encourage net working in the car making industry between Japan and the USA. So there is the connection. In 2011 I met this USA engineer who was head hunted by Mitsubishi to head the aero department. The deal he received he told me that he be stupid to go back to the USA because he be taking a big pay cut.

GM wants to get into the Japanese market. That's the only reason to work with Honda.

From 1930-1935 GMs market share in Japan was 42%. General Motors built a factory in Osaka in 1927 where Knock-down kits of Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Buick vehicles were shipped from the United States and assembled locally. Ford also had a huge facility in Japan that was a duplicate of their headquarters in the US. GM and Ford together had 95% of the Japanese automobile market. A 1936 law prohibited foreign manufacturers in Japan from increasing production. That and other factors led GM and Ford to abandon Japan by 1939.

In other words, EV's aren't all unicorns and rainbows.

I think in the near future mixtures of ammonia and hydrogen produced at factories using only renewable energy sources are going to fuel internal combustion engines not a great deal different than what are in our cars, trucks, buses, ships, construction equipment and big stationary power generators.

I think in the near future mixtures of ammonia and hydrogen produced at factories using only renewable energy sources are going to fuel internal combustion engines not a great deal different than what are in our cars, trucks, buses, ships, construction equipment and big stationary power generators.

I agree with you. This is also why car manufacturers such as Toyota diversifies and continues its work on hydrogen powered fuel cells and hydrogen combustion engines instead of going for full BEH.

Very slow start.

Those Saudis want to drain every last reservoir of oil before we go 'green'.

In other words, EV's aren't all unicorns and rainbows.

what you conveniently forgot is that a recent study has shown that EV batteries can be recycled 99% and the

materials used for new EV batteries, EV will reach a critical mass in the future when enough EOL evs will be recycled to make new Evs, meaning mining wont be as intensive as it is today to produce more batteries,

also new batteries that are being developed are going to have very little if any Cobalt and Lithium, making the batteries substantially cheaper

what you conveniently forgot is that a recent study has shown that EV batteries can be recycled 99%... 

If recovering minerals hidden in worn-out products such as EV batteries were easier, cheaper, and safer than mining new materials, there would be a lot more of it, and it would not require subsidies and mandates to put into effect. While technology, especially automation and robotics, will *eventually*** **bring more economically viable (and cleaner) ways to recycle, the challenges are many and progress has been slow. That’s why overall global levels of net recycling of most metals (for all purposes, not just e-waste and green waste) are below 20%, and much lower than those for the rare earths.

The challenge with recycling is the same as in mining itself: a lot depends on concentrations. The concentration of useful minerals in e-waste is very low and often lower than the ore grades of those minerals in rocks. In addition, the physical nature of discarded hardware is highly varied (again, unlike rocks), making it difficult to find simple mechanisms to separate out the minerals. Recycling processes are often labor-intensive (thus the pursuit of cheap labor, sometimes child labor overseas) and hazardous because the techniques to burn away unwanted packaging sometimes releases toxic fumes and other waste.

Such realities indicate that the efforts expended to recycle minerals can be greater than to get it from nature’s ore.

@JeffLee

That sounds like very promising, although I wonder if GM needs Honda. 

It's simply a case of badge engineering, a Honda badge on GM/LG's platform vehicles, that is.

Japan's lagging behind everyone, even behind the Chinese, in EV era, and Honda is desperately trying to catch up.

@Michael Machida

GM wants to get into the Japanese market. 

Not at all, GM withdrew from most of world markets to focus on North America(Including Mexico) and China.

The challenge with recycling is the same as in mining itself: a lot depends on concentrations. The concentration of useful minerals in e-waste is very low and often lower than the ore grades of those minerals in rocks.

]as compared to oil, with 70% of the energy in a barrel of oil being wasted in processing transportation, and then the heat and noise loss out the tailpipe.

Electric motors are over 90% efficient, best ICE engines around 40%

Japan automakers are pretty much screwed.

as compared to oil, with 70% of the energy in a barrel of oil being wasted in processing transportation, and then the heat and noise loss out the tailpipe.

Electric motors are over 90% efficient, best ICE engines around 40%

And your point is???

A standard EV uses a 1,000-pound battery that contains 25 pounds of lithium, 60 pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside the battery are something like 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells.

 Looking upstream at the ore grades, it's estimated that the typical quantity of rock that must be extracted from the earth and processed to yield the pure minerals needed to make that single battery is:

 • Lithium brines typically contain less than 0.1% lithium, so that requires some 25,000 pounds of brines to get the 25 pounds of pure lithium.

 • Cobalt ore grades average about 0.1%, thus nearly 30,000 pounds of ore.

 • Nickel ore grades average about 1%, thus about 6,000 pounds of ore.

• Graphite ore is typically 10%, thus about 1,000 pounds per battery.

 • Copper at about 0.6% in the ore, thus about 25,000 pounds of ore per battery.

So in total, acquiring just these five elements to produce the 1,000-pound EV battery requires mining about 90,000 pounds of ore. To properly account for all of the "earth" moved though, which is relevant to the overall environmental footprint, and mining equipment energy use - we need to estimate the materials first dug up to get to the ore (overburden). Depending on ore type and location, overburden ranges from about 3 to 20 tons of earth removed to access each ton of ore.

This means that accessing about 90,000 pounds of ore requires digging and hauling between 200,000 and over 1,500,000 pounds of earth - a ****rough average of more than 500,000 pounds per battery. The precise number will vary for different battery chemistry formulations, and because different regions have variable grades of ores. It should be noted that this total footprint doesn't take into account the large quantities of materials and chemicals used to process and refine all those ores. The other materials used when compared with an ICE car, such as replacing steel with aluminum to offset the weight of the battery, or the supply chain for rare earth elements used in electric motors (neodymium, dysprosium) have not been counted. Also excluded from this is the related, but non-battery, electrical systems in an EV that use some 300% more overall copper compared to an ICE car.

If recovering minerals hidden in worn-out products such as EV batteries were easier, cheaper, and safer than mining new materials, there would be a lot more of it, and it would not require subsidies and mandates to put into effect. While technology, especially automation and robotics, will eventually bring more economically viable (and cleaner) ways to recycle, the challenges are many and progress has been slow. That’s why overall global levels of net recycling of most metals (for all purposes, not just e-waste and green waste) are below 20%, and much lower than those for the rare earths.

The challenge with recycling is the same as in mining itself: a lot depends on concentrations. The concentration of useful minerals in e-waste is very low and often lower than the ore grades of those minerals in rocks. In addition, the physical nature of discarded hardware is highly varied (again, unlike rocks), making it difficult to find simple mechanisms to separate out the minerals. Recycling processes are often labor-intensive (thus the pursuit of cheap labor, sometimes child labor overseas) and hazardous because the techniques to burn away unwanted packaging sometimes releases toxic fumes and other waste.

Such realities indicate that the efforts expended to recycle minerals can be greater than to get it from nature’s ore.

I'll say it again, EV's are not all unicorns and rainbows.

Also, if it makes any difference to you, cars are wasteful things to start with, regardless of how they're powered.

as compared to oil, with 70% of the energy in a barrel of oil being wasted in processing transportation, and then the heat and noise loss out the tailpipe.

Electric motors are over 90% efficient, best ICE engines around 40%

Can't see the forest for the trees.

During the 1990s, GM had one of only two EVs available here in California, the EV-1. (The other one was made by Honda.) They could only be leased, not purchased. When the government mandate to make EVs available in California was allowed to expire, GM recalled all of their EV-1s, and then proceeded scrap them. Today, not a single EV-1 is left to commemorate America's first big shift into EVs. GM really, really blew that public relations opportunity.

A standard EV uses a 1,000-pound battery that contains 25 pounds of lithium, 60 pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside the battery are something like 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells.

There is no such thing as a "standard" EV. They come in a sizes and battery capacities and they are all different. It would be difficult to calculate an "average" EV battery size with new vehicles being added to the mix all the time and all with different statistics.

I don't have a lot of confidence in GM's ability to do anything right, but I wish them well.

@1glenn

I don't have a lot of confidence in GM's ability to do anything right

But Honda does. So Honda must know things that you do not.

@Samit Basu

If Honda or Toyota is screwed in the long term, then the whole Japanese auto industry is damned.

Extrapolating from the last couple of years, which have been a complete train wreck, I'd suggest that now is a good time to buy a horse.

There is no such thing as a "standard" EV. They come in a sizes and battery capacities and they are all different. It would be difficult to calculate an "average" EV battery size with new vehicles being added to the mix all the time and all with different statistics.

Perhaps, I should have said "Tesla EV"?

My bad. Allow me to clarify.

A Tesla Roadster battery weighs 900 pounds.

In the case of a Tesla 3 Long Range, that battery weights in at 1,060 pounds.

Yes, EV batteries come is a variety of sizes and capacities (such as the number of individual cells), but size nor capacity is the point and I don't intend to list up the size/weight/capacity of every EV battery on the market.

The point is that whatever their size, shape or capacity, EV batteries require huge amounts of ore in order to get at the minerals/metals needed for their manufacture.

They're wasteful. ALL cars are wasteful, but like I said below, EV's are not all unicorns and rainbows.

IMO, many EV cultists can't see the forest for the trees.