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Indonesia favoring China over Japan in railway bid: gov't sources

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The safety issue has been adequately addressed by a few brown paper bags filled... Don't come crying when a few hundreds are killed in the safe trains. Better practice those wagon burying skills.

3 ( +11 / -8 )

Just the fact that safety was an issue with China's bid tells you something. And why is China protesting Japan submitting a new proposal "so close to the deadline"?

2 ( +7 / -5 )

When you look at the degree of history, experience and actual safety record, the only way that Indonesia (or any country) would choose China for a High Speed Train system is if China has been spreading money around under the table, Or, are Indonesians so accustomed to accidents involving high numbers of fatalities that they don't care?

4 ( +12 / -8 )

Ha ha, a few one-eyed comments here. Does anyone with any memory at all of Japanese corporations and government abroad imagine they are lily white?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Listen to all the salty comment here. Even go as far as critiquing Indonesia itself, while nothing has even been decided yet.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

73.92 trillion rupiah for 50yrs at 2% or 60.14 trillion rupiah 40yrs at .1%. dont know if my math is wrong but one deal seem much better than the other!?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

If people are going to be clinging to the doors and windows from the outside and riding on the roof (as they do in Indonesia) then I'm not sure the safety of the train itself is that big of a concern.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Funny, China is reported to be the front-runner in the US high-speed rail project as well, according to a Reuters story a few months ago.

I think countries are put off with Japan's model of totally dominating these systems, using its own proprietory standards and components, so that customers will have to phone Tokyo for every replacement nut and bolt.

The safety - Japan's main card - is a moot point, since rail is so much more safer than other transport. The differences, when looked at from risk and probability analysis, are minuscule.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

China ripped off tech from Japan and made an inferior product. You get what you pay for Indonesia

4 ( +7 / -3 )

The 150-km rail line should to cut the journey between Jakarta and Bandung to 35 minutes, from about three hours. Trains are expected to reach speeds of more than 300 km per hour.

This train is gonna run pretty fast so you want the best and most dependable train you can get. The time saving is pretty great also so I'm sure many people will try to take this train/rail line instead of other. People need to understand that Asia is really changing and upgrading quick (China is a good example).

0 ( +0 / -0 )

If you buy cheap Chinese "stuff" you will get exactly that a whole lot of cheap Chinese "stuff".

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Japan needs to play the patent card, I'm guessing that many of the train tech Japan made is patented, just threaten to sue anyone using China tech.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

In developing countries you need to "pay to play". In Japan this of course happens just as it happens everywhere else, but like in other developed countries it happens only to a certain extent. In the case of China, getting the railway contract is a political exercise which will get full state backing, and carte blanche to bribe whoever however much they want. China is perfectly comfortable to lose a lot of money in the venture, just as the Soviet Union did in the building of the Aswan dam.

There was recent news of Malaysia's prime minister transferring hundreds of millions of dollars into private bank accounts he owns. Don't doubt that Indonesia's top politicians will soon be making similar transfers of their own. Indonesia's high speed train will be a massice exercise in state-sponsored looting of the people's assets to increase China's prestige, and enrich Indonesian poltiticians.

Indonesia cares nothing about the quality, safety or efficiency of their rail project, or they would never have allowed China to place a bid in the first place. They are only about "show me the money". Such shenanigans will only ensure that Indonesia and China willl never become developed countries.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Why not buy Japanese, the most efficient rail system in the world.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

If anybody choose China instead of the very best of the world plus the 0.1% in 40 years instead of 2% in 50, well the bribe was better on the Chinese side, you couldn't have a better deal.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

From the article: “Indonesia is leaning towards China because their proposal is less financially burdensome on the Indonesian government and because the issue of safety has been adequately addressed,”

I certainly hope this is the case. However, when I compare the safety records of the bullet trains in China and Japan, the picture seems to be somewhat different. I think there was also an article in JT some time ago comparing the interest on the loans which China and Japan have proposed…

A second government source said Indonesia wanted to strike a balance between the two powers in handing out high-profile infrastructure projects.

This is understandable and, at least to me, sounds more honest than the reasons regarding safety.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

if china gets the contract, ummm, bad mistake!

2 ( +3 / -1 )

"Japan needs to play the patent card"

Good luck with that. Japanese and Western companies agreed to transfer their technologies to China, in exchange for market access. That's globalization for you, folks!

Furthermore, Japan's own post-war industry was built on reverse-engineering of foreign technologies. So they'd be kinda hypocritical to complain now.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

up the bribes some ore. Indonesia will go with China because cheaper and they care more a bout keeping Big Red sweet.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Really hoping that the government will choose Japan. Remember the horrible Transjakarta buses we got from China...?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Expect the following headlines in the next few days, if these reports ring true:

"Japan lodges protest to WTO over Indonesian fast-rail snub" / Abe : "Indonesia has hurt Japanese feelings with this regrettable decision"... and so on.

Anyway, does Indonesia really have the money to throw away on fast-trains when they FIRST should be investing in basic health/school/water infrastructure? A 50-year loan is a looong time.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

OssanAmerica: "the only way that Indonesia (or any country) would choose China for a High Speed Train system is if China has been spreading money around under the table"

Japan is FAR better known for it's massive bribery, my friend, so I'd think a little before you speak. There is no doubt that if one is doing it here, it's Japan. Another, more feasible reason that Indonesia is taking China's bid seriously is that it would be lower cost, and also China is Indonesia's biggest trading partner. They may also have agreed to lessen pressure on Indonesia in terms of incursions in international waters, etc. I have no doubt Abe offered some military support as part of the deal (another form of bribery).

In any case, competition is obviously doing well for Indonesia, who gets a better deal either way.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

Bet a lot of money is moving "under the table." Surely, bribes will determine the outcome of this high speed train issue.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

If you chose China, you will regret it! Promise!

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Considering it's Indonesia, there's a bit of an overemphasis on safety issues in a lot of comments here.

But China's rail safety issues should be put in perspective anyway. They have a staggeringly large network compared to any other country - the latest line announced being a somewhat improbable sounding link to Dandong on the NK border.

http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/83000/83182/ISS038-E-038300_lrg.jpg

They already have over 16,000 km of track running high-speed (200+ km/h) trains, with a lot more on the way.

To date they've had one high-profile accident, and it has to be acknowledged that they handled it extremely badly. That safety record will improve dramatically as they continue to rack up the passenger miles

But on the positive side, regardless of whether the technology is licensed, copied, reverse engineered, or outright stolen, China has gained vast amounts of experience in building and operating high-speed rail. They've put these lines across every type of terrain imaginable including mountains, deserts and permafrost, and operate them in all conditions, including Manchurian winters.

That ought to be enough to make almost any country take them seriously when throwing open the bidding to build a high-speed line, especially as they will be cost-competitive.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

A lot of people here are forgetting the maglev train running from Shanghai airport into the city. Japan is still at the testing phase - now which country would be better suited for the job?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

A lot of people here are forgetting the maglev train running from Shanghai airport into the city. Japan is still at the testing phase

Japan had a working (and well used) maglev for the 2005 Expo in Nagoya.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Magnetic levitation trains Maglev has already been patented in Germany in 1934. ...

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

And Porsche build the 1st fully electric car(fact).

British invented the Jet-drive but the Germans had the 1st jet-poweref fighters.

So what?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The Company which put more money into Indonesian Government's minister and decision makers will get tender to build High Speed Railway. The world is too corrupt these days.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Has Indonesia not heard about China's rail accidents within the last several years? Even their own citizens wear safety helmets when they ride the Chinese bullet trains. Not exactly confidence-inspiring. So, how were the safety issues "adequately addressed?"

Given Indonesia's history of government level corruption, I guess it would be easy to connect the dots.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

And yet another country passing us Americans by as our infrastructure rots and falls apart.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Stangerland There aren't any maglev trains in public use in Japan but there are in China, A first for China, no?****

2 ( +2 / -0 )

There aren't any maglev trains in public use in Japan

As I said, they built one for the 2005 Expo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linimo

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Has Indonesia not heard about China's rail accidents within the last several years? Even their own citizens wear safety helmets when they ride the Chinese bullet trains.

They have had one disaster on a high-speed line, the Wenzhou accident in 2011. Total casualties were lower than the German ICE accident in the 1990s and the Spanish crash a couple of years ago (and, though as it occurred on a non-high-speed line, it is less relevant, the Amagasaki crash in 2005, which killed 107 people).

As of 2011, China's high-speed network has been carrying more passengers per day than Japan's, and every year of disaster-free operation improves its safety record considerably. With the longest routes of any country, the equation works in China's favour - one way to measure safety is fatalities per billion km. I think this map will give you some idea of China's advantage in this respect compared to its high-speed neighbours Korea, Japan, and Taiwan.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Eastern_Asia_HSR2015.svg

Obviously to keep that record up they have to minimize crashes in the future, and at this point that is something of an unknown quantity compared to Japan's 50 years of shinkansen service and France's 35 years of TGV, but still, simply dismissing China's ability to operate its high-speed network safely after one crash is unjustified.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Wouldn't be surprised if there was bribery involved. Who in their right mind wants to buy the unsafe crap from China. They claim to build it faster and cheaper than Japan. Well, you get what you pay for!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Probably goof news to Japan and Filipin. This will assure Japan will concentrate on Filipin railroad project and do not have to produce loan money to Indonesia. China's economy id own and down now but how it spends money is not Japanese problem.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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