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Indonesia to award fast train contract to China

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Japan lost this fair and square. Hopefully the Indonesian people gained. No more burying the train evidence like at Wenzhou!

0 ( +3 / -3 )

It seems that China pressured Indonesian government about bullet train. Indonesia wanted safer train and better system of Japan first but it couldn't stop refusing demand of China.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Expect more Chinese Train will have contracts in USA There will be Chinese train line between So Calif and Las Vegas. Chinese bullet train line State of NV revealed. recently.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Whenever I hear about Japan falling all over itself to get high speed train contracts, I think about the countries in which the projects are to be built. Can they manage the infrastructure? Can they build structures reliably so that they won't fall down? Is life cheap, or is safety first? Can operators follow directions reliably? Can operators be chosen by merit rather than nepotism or other connections?

And time after time, I resign myself to the fact that Japan should probably not be taking ultimate responsibility for building these systems in countries that have proven that they can't handle them. What China can provide and what Indonesia seems to want are an excellent match. Japan can find better partners, probably. And if not, at least they can avoid having to clean up someone else's mess.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

it seems someones brown paper bags were considerable larger than the others!?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

5SpeedRacer5: Whenever I hear about Japan falling all over itself to get high speed train contracts, I think about the countries in which the projects are to be built. Can they manage the infrastructure? Can they build structures reliably so that they won't fall down? Is life cheap, or is safety first? Can operators follow directions reliably? Can operators be chosen by merit rather than nepotism or other connections?

What, like this JT headline today, for incident in Tokyo?:

http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/view/1-acquitted-3-given-suspended-sentences-in-fatal-schindler-elevator-accident

1 acquitted, 3 given suspended sentences in fatal Schindler elevator accident - Crime Sep. 29, 2015 - 04:25PM JST

... But Presiding Judge Shinji Sugiyama found guilty three people at SEC Elevator Co., which took over Schindler’s maintenance work in April 2006, saying they overlooked the abnormality and “neglected their duty to establish an appropriate system for checks and maintenance.” ... On June 3, 2006, Hirosuke Ichikawa died after being wedged between the elevator and the elevator shaft at a housing complex in Tokyo’s Minato Ward when it suddenly began to ascend while the doors were wide open. He was getting off of the elevator at that time. ... After taking over the responsibility, SEC checked the elevator in question just nine days before the accident but did not notice the linings of the brake arms were wearing out, the ruling said. ... The court also said the company did not review its maintenance system despite being told from outside sources that it had problems. ... During the trial, prosecutors had sought 18-month prison terms for Harada and Suzuki, a 16-month term for Nishimura and 14 months for Nemoto, all without suspensions, saying they failed to take appropriate measures over the abnormality in the braking system.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Some JT posters had previously made derogatory comments about Chinese products and services being "crap" ( you know who you are).

But nobody would buy millions and billions worth of crappy products, especially for safe public use. Which means Chinese products and services are not the stereotypical crappy copycat nonsense, but are fast becoming cutting edge top value reliable brands, as more and more nations (USA and Europe too) are choosing Chinese products and services over less-innovative and financially burdensome Japanese ones...

... while envious Japan can only watch its own fate sinking and losing to China in every sector and way each day by many times over.

Japan should know by now it can never win again over China , and Abe/Jpn people's badmouthing and looking down on China shows how immature and how trapped and mired Japan is in its own shaken speriority complex. Japan can't never win back its own position because its grave miscalculations are its anti-Chinese infantile mentality and its inability to face its so many shortcomings/history and its xenophobia, not to mention Jpn people have no hunger and no motivation and no innovation at all. Japan is becoming a zombie nation, with less and less innovation and ambitions each day...

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

The various Japanese gerontocracies have to look in the mirror and notice that they are leading their country further and faster downhill. But they won't and probably can't. They're stuck in the Japanese way.

Gerontocracies are most concerned about their own survival, and individuals within are most concerned about maintaining their positions and pensions.

China has finland-ized huge areas in the Indian and Pacific Ocean spheres. China has reinvented itself from a backward state and become a modern state. It has spent the last couple of decades planning its economic actions and building infrastructure. Like it or not.

Japan's gerontocracies have kept things in the bubble years. But the bureaucrats within have kept their pensions.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@ringman2

what a load of tosh

Don't get confused between quality and price. China makes garbage but its cheap and that's why people buy it. China can sell cheap stuff because it controls its own exchange rate. If it hadn't been for Lehmans in 2008 that destroyed the exchange rates for Japan and other countries then China would have never had this chance I think.

For Indonesia to choose China over Japan says nothing about Chinas skill in high speed railways but says more about people wanting cheap over quality (and perhaps as wtfjapan says, a little incentive from the China side)

More fool them.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Some JT posters had previously made derogatory comments about Chinese products and services being "crap" ( you know who you are).

Well. They are. It's like a welfare recipient contemplating on buying a Hyundai or BMW. Indonesia chose the former while rich nations such as U.K. chose Hitachi.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

A Reuters article said the Chinese system is also the favorite for the US projects. And a private sector company in the US is proposing the Chinese supply a high speed link between LA and Vegas. So I guess the Chinese are doing something right.

Indonesia really needs a conventional link, that would be more in line with its modest needs, and not the needs of a swinging d*ck contest between two economic superpowers.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Buying a Chinese made consumer product is one thing, But a mass transit system where an accident could result in hundreds of casualties is something else. In some countries that would be a very big deal, in other countries not so much.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Vegas welcomed.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

China’s proposal for the project was less financially burdensome for Indonesia because it did not require a government guarantee or use the state budget.

That about says it all. In other words, we can't guarantee our payments to you.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@OssanAmerica, two words: sore loser.

I know it must be a huge shock to you and Abe etc, but as some stated above, there was no question of technology and quality in the article, so Japan lost fair and square in both technology and financing to China.

Worse, Japan now frets over the new trend China is setting: China pays for all spending to make the client happier, while poor Japan keeps bragging but has no money (but will use taxes from Japan to offer similar deals?).

And to make Japan look even childish and a brat, Suga made disparaging comments on TV against China and Indonesia (such as ".. I/we doubt this deal between Indonesia and China would be successful..")... doesn't he realize this is the kind of anti-China superiority complex and self-righteous attitude that turn off potential clients???, not to mention sinking Japan deeper plus making the Chinese even much more motivated to achieve their clear goals.

Even Japan's "best pal" (under the biggest joke of the century: Jpn-USA "Alliance") is choosing China's technology and financing over snobbish and innovation-less Japan's for key train lines.

The very key problem with Japan is its attitude. It can't face up to today's realities: China is fast surpassing Japan and USA in everything, by a very large margin.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

China has asking Indonesia officials to return money they took it from Chinese Fast train lobby group after the fast train project was canceled.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

But people don't remember July 23 2011 how a speed rail disaster exposed China's corruption? in the other hand Japan isn't showing any transparency about their own disaster Fukushima. That why Japanese govemrent need to fix their own mess first and showing some trasparency, also never never never, make comments about your clients. Ohh Japan please don't make it again! Just stick to the plan to selling your services!

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@moon1: LOL, and yours is a fair assessment but ignores certain facts?

Stop being envious and admit that Japan lost fairly to China in both tech and financing as other posters and the news media have said. I wish posters would refrain from acting like sore losers and whine and badmouth China and the clients and pull magical excuses from a magic hat like the infantile self-righteous Suga of which such attitudes will sink Japan even more. Japan needs more that magic and badmouthing China to barely stay competitive, LOL.

@ nigelboy, if Chinese products are so bad, why use them at all, even if free, and risk human lives? You sure rich countries use only Jpn tech and never Chinese tech? So why USA, Abe's "best buddy", is preferring and trusting China's technology and financing for its world-renowned Las Vegas corridor?

So, Moon1 and Nigelboy, please refer to my post above ( OssanAmerican).

On the other hand, those like Joshua Degreiff have more realistic comments.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Even if China builds the railway, Japan gets in on the action. China cannot make many of the high end materials and electronics and circuitry necessary to run a high speed train. Only Japanese companies can make these, so they will get in on the action. They are only disappointed because the train will not be called "Shinkansen", even though the guts are all Japan made.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@gokai_ wo_maneka: even if Japan can get in on the action, Japan is still seen as the loser and I doubt Japan has the humility to humbly serve the Chinese-led project in a lesser capacity.

Remember, the media and experts said whoever got this Indonesia deal would be the leader in Asia for other big projects. The fact Japan lost, big time, to China speaks volumes.

It also shows Abe doesn't necessarily have "friends" in Asia to join his wet dream of forming a gang to control or suppress China economically or otherwise. Actually, it is Japan now suppressed by its own ego and mistaken anti-China mantra...big big mistake. The Asians and even Americans are only too happy to have a much much better viable partner: China.

Japan is fast becoming pointless and liability to many in the region and the world, especially with no innovation and its superiority complex.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

ringman2

I am envious of many things, but China is not one of them and never will be. I will however continue to buy underpants made in China

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Did you hear about Africas first streetcar (tram) south of the Sahara desert was just put into service? In Ethiopias capital, and who build it? Right guess, even the drivers and conductors will be Chinamen for a while.

Thats where the momentum is in 2015.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@wtfjapanSEP. 30, 2015 - 01:04AM JST it seems someones brown paper bags were considerable larger than the others!?

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

A message from a person whose imagination of bribing is not in cash filled brief case nor ATM

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Vegas already had contract before this news.'

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Yeah China won since what Indonesia demanded was not acceptable for any democratic nation in usage of public funds.

Indonesia laid out the terms that the there would be no national budget be used, no government guarantee will be issued and the winner will work with a state owned enterprise and not the government directly meaning the government will take no responsibility if the project goes sour. The government of Japan first priority is obtaining prosperity of Japan and not some other nation's prosperity. Basically the Japanese government forfeited at the last minute and PRC was just beating herself up raising the ante against her own self.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@Triring: Can you write derail or summary of your statement

Indonesia laid out the terms that the there would be no national budget be used, no government guarantee will be issued and the winner will work with a state owned enterprise and not the government directly meaning the government will take no responsibility if the project goes sour. The government of Japan first priority is obtaining prosperity of Japan and not some other nation's prosperity. Basically the Japanese government forfeited at the last minute and PRC was just beating herself up raising the ante against her own self.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@ nigelboy, if Chinese products are so bad, why use them at all, even if free, and risk human lives? You sure rich countries use only Jpn tech and never Chinese tech? So why USA, Abe's "best buddy", is preferring and trusting China's technology and financing for its world-renowned Las Vegas corridor?

The same reason why certain segments of the population buys junk in U.S. It's LAS-LA route (relatively flat) done by a private company. Nothing to gloat over.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

I couldn't care less which bid Indonesia wasted their (taxpayers') money on. No doubt ALL parties were acting in a highly questionable manner in the bid process.

But I have to say it is rather heartwarming to see the predictable, bigoted anti-Chinese brigade squirming and spitting the dummy right now!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Several years ago City of Las Vegas (not private corporation - city) tried but proposals were dumping of choo choo train so it scraped until recently. this time, found Chinese bullet train. Maybe Indonesia is encouraged because Vegas signed contract?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

"Indonesia laid out the terms that the there would be no national budget be used,"

Good for them. Japanese taxpayers have paid an enormous bill for the Shinkansen over the decades. If a foreign corporate contractor is keen to come to your country and take away the profits, why should local taxpayers subsidize the venture?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

This is the contract establishing railroad line in Indonesia. After done all income such as ticket sales will be Indonesian income.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

In an earlier Japanese study they had concluded that the route will not be able to sustain itself without government subsidies the first decade. If that really comes true then this project is doomed from the start.That is why Japan forefited without the Indonesian government involvement.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Meanwhile Filipin and Japan are busy there for new railroads plan there,

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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