Investigators launch probe into Kobe Steel's quality data fabrication

That's the thing about liars. Sooner or later they always get caught out. And, here is Abe trying to rebuild Japan's economy through international growth. International consumer confidence in Japanese made products is just about down to zero! Start with Takata Airbags who knew their airbags were faulty for nearly twenty years before they got caught. Then, move onto the car manufacturing companies that have been falsifying emissions data and untrained staff doing inspections on new vehicles. Then, let's mention Mitsubishi and their falsified financial reports ripping off investors for years. Meanwhile, while all this is going on we have Abe and Aso selling property at 'mate's rates' to his friends and the education minister slipping down to the local 'rub and tug' joint in the government car for an afternoon of pleasure. My metaphor for Japan is, it's like a gilded dog poop. It looks great on the outside, but you don't have to scratch very far under the surface to find the crap.

The further tests of the clients on their products had to detect that the steel was substandard. So, if the Japanese have lied for decades, also their clients (both Japanese and foreigners) lied.

This is a non-sequitur. It may be true that the clients also lied, but that conclusion cannot logically be made from your assertion. For your conclusion to be able to be made, requires the assumption that the clients were doing tests, that they found results that different from the Kobe Steel's claims, that the Kobe Steel didn't hide the lower quality in a way that wasn't easy to detect, and so on and so on.

What I am saying is common sense and knowledge about how a supply chain works

Common sense and general knowledge are enough to come to an opinion that something is probably a certain way. They are not however enough to conclusively determine that something is a certain way. This is why I have been pointing out that your conclusion that 'their clients lied'. They may indeed have lied, but that cannot be concluded from the premise you provided. That premise only provides enough for someone to be of the opinion that the clients lied.

I'll put it to you a different way. If you walked into a court with this, and tried to make the claim, it would not hold up. I understand the logic you are trying to get at, however it's not enough to make the claim you are making.

you are repeating over and over the same thing.

So are you.

I think it's enough.

And yet you're still doing it:

My opinion is absolutely logical since it's based on how the chain supply works, and I think there's no way that such kind of problems could remain unknown for decades.

And yet, they did. You've drawn the conclusion that this means the clients were lying along with Kobe Steel. You may be right, but that cannot be concluded simply from the logic you've put forward. Imagine trying a case based on the logic you're using. "They're guilty because they should have known". That would never win anything. Some evidence has to be put forward, not just an explanation of the overall environment.

What you are implying is embarrassing.

I'm not implying anything. I was quite clear in what I was saying - that your claim is a non-sequitur.

if you are for example a carmaker, are you saying that you are not supposed to do a crash test to detect this kind of problems?

No, that is not what I'm saying. I wasn't making any claims about what anyone should or shouldn't do, or has done. I was simply pointing out that the conclusion you came to was not one that could be logically come to with the facts you had given.

but your "logic" that considers illogical my conclusions, shows simply you don't know how a supply chain works.

That's irrelevant. Your claim has too many assumptions buried in it for it to not be a non-sequitur. Again, the conclusion you made may indeed be correct, but the facts you provided aren't enough to prove it.

The investigation is just starting? That took some time, months to get going. "OK everybody got their story straight, result set, good...lets start the investigation"

not so fast, I only read about their fraud months ago. Must be ready now after destroying the records

Ah, business as usual in Japan!

Not all the records, sf2k. There's still the records that some mid-level manager who retired two years ago and one executive who's 84 and ready for his golden parachute still have their names attached to. Those are still waiting to be discovered!

The rest... well, that's highly regrettable.

These products were used by companies all around the world for years. There's no way these companies never made some tests to verify the quality of their final products, without noticing that the quality of the steel that they had used was inferior to the required parameters, this kind of thing is the most natural question that everyone with a a bit of brain should do, and indeed I just read an article about this. "How is it possible that nobody knew?"

The issue is with data fabrication not the steel manufacturing process, had the steel itself been substandard than this would been detected long time back, not to mention all kinds of metal fatigue accidents.

Another thing: immediately after the scandal, I remember many different kinds of companies worldwide, that used this company's materials, like some airplanes makers, saying that their products were safe. So, again, my question is: if these companies told their products are safe, this means they had tested them, of course. If they had tested them, according to their required parameters, and these tests showed the parameters were satisfied, how is this possible, despite they used Kobe Steel substandard materials? These questions are absolutely legitimate and logical, and no matter what, this situation casts shadows on how the global supply chains, in any sector, work. So maybe it's not only Japan inc that should rethink its corporate management, if the misconduct of one Japanese company (or of any other nationality), can make unsafe airplanes, trains, cars, etc., that had been labeled as "safe" and put into market, everywhere. All the global supply chains must be rethought completely.

@Strangerland: you are repeating over and over the same thing. I think it's enough. My opinion is absolutely logical since it's based on how the chain supply works, and I think there's no way that such kind of problems could remain unknown for decades. You are free to disagree with me, and trust your own logic. Thanks.

@Strangerland: it's my opinion, and it's based on how the supply chains work. This is why, for example, the carmakers were asked to disclose all the data about their products made with Kobe Steel materials. Because the logical question is: what did they know and never told? They must show their products are safe. If my doubts were so illogical well the carmakers wouldn't be involved in the investigation in the US. My opinion could be right or wrong, but what is absolutely ridiculous in your criticism towards me is saying this opinion lacks any logic. It's exactly because of this logic, based on how the supply chains work, that the carmakers are under investigation as well. If this isn't enough to make myself clear yet, no problem. English isn't even my first language, so maybe there's a problem of communication between us.

These products were used by companies all around the world for years. There's no way these companies never made some tests to verify the quality of their final products, without noticing that the quality of the steel that they had used was inferior to the required parameters, this kind of thing is the most natural question that everyone with a a bit of brain should do, and indeed I just read an article about this. "How is it possible that nobody knew?"

My answer is simple: if the Japanese are liars, well also the rest of the world is liar, because there's no way that in decades of supposed falsification not even one of the hundreds of foreign clients noticed anything. We are living in an age of trade wars, tarnishing the reputation of a Country is only one way to win this war. But falsification of data and liars are present all over the world, in any industry and government. It's only a matter of who is the best liar.

Trying to paint Japan like the only Country with this kind of problems is ridiculous, but very typical of many users in this site.

@mrtinjp: Data fabrication to portray the steel like being higher quality than it was. We are speaking of steel that didn't satisfy the required parameters by the clients. So, what you said doesn't change absolutely what I said. The further tests of the clients on their products had to detect that the steel was substandard. So, if the Japanese have lied for decades, also their clients (both Japanese and foreigners) lied. If the steel isn't actually substandard, well this whole story can be fabricated to tarn this company's reputation. I don't know which of the two things is true, but what I can't absolutely believe (it's an insult to my intelligence) is that if this steel was substandard, all the companies, both Japanese and foreigners, that used this steel, were never able for DECADES (we aren't speaking about something that happened for a couple of months) to discover this fraud. The whole supply chain is guilty, not only one company, or only Japanese companies that used this steel, but both Japanese AND foreign companies that used this steel.

@Strangerland: I hope you are kidding. What you are implying is embarrassing. So, if you are for example a carmaker, are you saying that you are not supposed to do a crash test to detect this kind of problems? But not only this, all the manufacturing companies must get some certifications of quality by authorized companies. I am speaking about ISO 9001 stuff like, so this means that also the companies that released all these kinds of certifications to Kobe Steel lied, if the steel is actually substandard. Apparently you don't know how a supply chain works. Plus, the final consumer, that for example bought a car manufactured with this steel, who do you think he should sue, Kobe Steel, or the carmaker that sold him a car, where the carmaker declared on the its documents it satisfied some safety criteria?

@Strangerland: but your "logic" that considers illogical my conclusions, shows simply you don't know how a supply chain works. Steel is only one component with whom you can produce tons of other final products, that need further tests before being considered safe and put into the market. You can't say "oh, well, maybe it wasn't necessary for those companies to test their final products", or "maybe Kobe Steel was too good to hide that their steel was substandard". It's ridiculous.

@Strangerland: I explained you how the supply chain works, that is the reason why what I am saying does make perfect sense. Unlike whatever you are trying to say.

What I am saying is common sense and knowledge about how a supply chain works, that makes impossible that nobody outside this company never noticed the steel was substandard for decades (I repeat, for decades). Whatever any court will decide, it's not like it would confirm absolutely the truth of the facts. Unlike some people here, I think the whole world is corrupted, and deep inside. It's not a Japanese only thing, stereotype that makes so happy many users in this site, when God only knows whatever happens in their "immaculate" Country.