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© (c) Copyright Thomson Reuters 2016.Japan warns Brexit may drive banks, pharma investment to EU
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M3M3M3
Patents will be another big concern for Japan inc. A new EU wide unitary patent system is set to start next year. London was supposed to be the location for the central division of the unified patent court dealing with chemistry and pharmaceutical patents. A lease on the new court building in the Aldgate tower was even signed earlier this year, but all of it has to be scrapped now after the Brexit vote.
sangetsu03
The EU still has to contend with Greece, and Italy, who are teetering on economic collapse, not to mention the numerous other states who are not very solvent, and whose instability makes the rest of the EU unstable.
We may see more and more companies leaving the EU and heading to Britain. That would prove Japan's claim to be wrong, but pretty much every political and economic prediction Japan has made over the last three decades has been proven wrong, hasn't it?
Given the choice to invest in Japan, the EU, or Britain, I would have to choose Britain.
fjlm44
'Nearly half of Japan's EU investment flowed to the UK last year'. The key word is NEARLY. It still means more than half the investment flowed to the rest of the EU bloc. Thus, while the UK vote for Brexit is a major headache, it is still relevant to, at most, half of Japanese investment in the EU, so I would not get too upbeat about the prospects to the UK.
Moreover, economic forecasts (never mind the doom-mongering that the remain camp undertook out of desperation) all suggested that the UK would become poorer in the long term, which means that its attractiveness as a market is more likely to decrease than increase. The problem is that all assumptions of the state of the UK market are based on current conditions, which will change (the question is by how much and in what direction - although there is almost unanimity among economists in terms of the direction - in a negative direction) when the UK does leave the EU.
Moreover, if there were a migration of industries from the UK to the EU, then it would be the UK that would be potentially moribund and the EU would gain a boost. In fact, if I were in any of the other EU countries, I would be working hard to poach business away from the UK (and there are signs of this happening on a limited scale for now - cosmetics vendor Lush has already started transferring operations to the continent - banks are already staking out real estate in Dublin, Paris, Frankfurt).
Japan Violet
Britain is on the verge of complete collapse. They need to revoke Brexit, dump the pound and apologize to the world. The majority of the British population have always been living like paupers, but Brexit will bring them back to the age of industrialization. British seem to think that colonization was a high point for them, but in fact most British lived in squalor worse than the "colonials" in far off lands. These same aristocratic families are now leading them away from prosperity and towards dependence and pauperism once more.
sangetsu03
Given their track record in recent years, the more unanimous economists are about going in a particular direction, the more I want to go the opposite way.
Modern economists are charlatans of the worst sort, and the economics they preach is far more religion than it is science. Economists will produce whatever they are paid to produce, they will predict whatever they are told to predict. In normal economics, 2+2=4, in modern economics the sum can be anything they or their masters want it to be.
Abe's economists predict that if he spends massive amounts of money the economy doesn't have, in a country were the population is in free-fall mode, where consumption, profits, and wages are all in decline, he can somehow create meaningful economic growth, inflation, and a return to prosperity.
Pardon my skepticism, but as a person with a undergrad degree in economics, I have learned that modern economists long ago removed the restraints of common sense and reality from their so-called science. A professional economist could not run a lemonade stand. or properly balance his or her checkbook.
Tangerine2000
There won't be an EU to move to.
TTIP has collapsed. October will see a further breakdown as Turkey will demand visa access to the EU and Germany will say no. France will have an EU referendum as will the Netherlands if the current leading political candidates in the polls are elected.
I think the UK can expect a few new businesses wanting to settle in the UK. Apple might be considering this now.
fjlm44
The question is whether these are the economists that the media prefers, or a sample of all economists. The media economists often have business interests and are thus not necessarily the most unbiased of sources.
Academic economists, on the other hand, are not the likeliest to be media darlings, because they tend to couch all their statements with caveats and tend to talk in shades of grey rather than black and white. They tend to require some time be given to their statements as they tend to be nuanced, so it's much harder to grasp what is being said in a 30 second spot. Unfortunately, most of the economists we see in the media are of the variety that the media prefers (for obvious reasons) and they are also the most likely to be unreliable.
ClippetyClop
Goodness gracious, that was quite a rant! Absolute nonsense of course, Britain's economy is growing at a faster rate than the eurozone despite the frothy-mouthed doomsdayers like yourself proclaiming the end of days.
M3M3M3
@sangetsu03
I think many people would agree with this but it's important to seperate when economists are using thier overly complicated models to predict economic growth, and when they are just stating facts that have more to do with basic human nature.
The main reason that Brexit is going to be very difficult for Britain is that the remaining 27 members of the EU are now looking forward to crippling the successful parts of the UK economy with all sorts of regulatory measures. Obviously, the UK won't be at the table to protest or vote them down.
For example, look for new regulations on the recognition of clinical trials conducted outside of the EU which make it impossible for companies like GSK to have all of their R&D based in the UK, or tighter environmental regulations on importing certain fish species which just happen to all live in British waters, or some sort of special exception from state-aids when it comes to attracting foreign manufactureres like Honda to set up in the EU, and of course the current financial passporting which makes it legal for UK banks and insurance companies to sell their products to Europeans without being based in Europe will come to an end (and it won't be on the table in any single market access negotiations).
wtfjapan
We may see more and more companies leaving the EU and heading to Britain. LOL and why would they want to do that, the majority of UK manufacturing is exported to the EU, It will all depend if the UK can still get duty-free access to the EU while refusing the free movement of people within the EU. Why would the EU want to give the UK all the benefits of being in the EU without any of the requirements, it would just disadvantage the countries that remain in the EU. If other EU states see that the UK is getting preferential treatment for leaving the EU why would other countries agree to stay.. No the EU will make being in the EU more beneficial than leaving and rightly so, the UK has a tough road ahead and the EU hold all the cards now, they'll be squeezing UK businesses to relocate to the EU and the jobs associated with them.
LostinNagoya
Someone call the PM, the Queen, asap! For we have some real economists right here in this forum. Give me a break. Japanese companies may not be doing very well recently, but they're from the third richest economy in the world. And Britain, is what?, the 6th, or the 7th? So, Japanese companies do have something to say about Brexit. And wasn't Britain the 2nd richest country less than a century ago? So, something went and is going very wrong with that island.
dharmadan
I'll see your threat of Japan Inc. leaving and raise you an Italian banking sector collapse and a Greek default. Wanna play?
fjlm44
And wasn't Britain the 2nd richest country less than a century ago? So, something went and is going very wrong with that island.
It also had to turn to the IMF for a bailout in the mid-seventies, at the time it was joining the EC. It's economy had been in a shambles. It's now among the leading economies in the EU (comparable to that of Germany). It's really hard to see how the EU has been bad for the UK>
Ampas
I would be far more concerned about the long term stability of the EU and the euro than that of the UK and the pound. Just look at Europe: The refugee crisis, the ongoing Eurozone debt crisis (bailouts of Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and more to follow) the continuing economic crisis in Greece, the impending Italian banking crisis, youth unemployment of 45% in Spain, discontentment leading to increasing popularity in far right political parties in the Netherlands, France and now even Germany. All of this is not going to end well and the flight of capital may well be in a direction opposite to what many people think.
Tangerine2000
@ LostinNagoya
The UK is currently the 5th biggest economy, projected to be the 4th within a decade or so. The UK is also the fastest growing economy in the EU.
The reason why the UK dropped down from being the second richest country was because of two World Wars. The break up of the British Empire was also a contributing factor.
The EU was good for the UK initially, but it has now become a very restricting influence on the British economy. Much of the manufacturing has been removed from the UK because of the EU, and it also can't negiotiate direct trade deals with countries across the globe. The time of trade blocs has passed and we now live in an age where location and distance don't mean as much anymore.
Japan Violet
I may not be an economist however I have been in business a long time. A universal truth that spans generations is that nobody likes doing business with the British. Brexit will allow everyone to put them aside where they can do as little damage as possible. Even take the term "Brexit" as an example, the British became so enthralled with their snappy catch-phrase without having any plan of action to back it up. That is the British way of business, all catch-phrase and no action. Sayonara.
Sherman
I think Japan should think about its own economic issues before sending a 15 page letter to UK about Brexit. Japan has been in economic doldrums for 25 years.
Ampas
@Japan Violet 'I have been in business a long time. A universal truth that spans generations is that nobody likes doing business with the British. Brexit will allow everyone to put them aside where they can do as little damage as possible.'
I'm quite sure the German automotive industry does not share this view considering the UK is the single largest importer of German cars, about 20% of the total. There is also the German engineering industry, for whom the UK is the 4th biggest export market. Despite the brave face put up by Angela Merkel, German industry would sooner see Greece leave the Eurozone than the UK leave the EU.
Yoshitsune
@clippetyclop
Was growing.
@LostinNagoya
Not any more; currently 6th.
Not any more. India will overtake us within a decade, and if Scotland leaves the UK we will fall further still.
Not any more.
ClippetyClop
@Yoshitsune
According to the latest figures, it still very much IS outpacing the Euro area
http://ieconomics.com/united-kingdom-vs-euro-area
6th biggest economy you say? Wrong. Although India and several other countries will still probably overtake us whether we are in the EU or not.
http://statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-projected-gdp.php
Of course, you may have separate data to back up your opinion. I'd like to see it. Either way, the general data points to the UK not being about to slide under the Atlantic surface any time soon
Tangerine2000
@ Yoshitsune
Scotland isn't going to leave. I would very much like there to be another referendum, the result would help put an end to the issue.
turbotsat
Is Britain going to get billed for a share of overextended states' debts? Won't the high-performing EU remaining states be on the hook for those?
M3M3M3
Why do the British buy so many European cars and import so much French and Spanish food?
Either they are the most generous neighbours any country could ever hope to have... or they are forced to do this because they no longer have a homegrown auto industry of their own thanks to decades of government incompetence, and they no longer produce enough food to feed themselves. One of these answers will give the UK alot of leverage in trade negotiations, the other will give them very little.
@ClippetyClop
Yoshitsune is correct. Britain has slipped to 6th behind France. The link you provided uses data from April 2016 which doesn't factor in the recent drop in the value of the pound.
ClippetyClop
@M3M3M3M3 and yet neither of you are able to provide details of this! 5th or 6th is barely relevant anyway. What is relevant is that the UK economy is in better shape than most of its neighbours and in a good position to trade with economies that aren't welded to a trading block.
Because they are wonderful to drive / great to eat! It's called trade. In return we sell them Top Gear and trash their beach resorts for 3 months a year.
Yoshitsune
@clippetyclop
Your linked figures are from April. Since then Sterling has nosedived and the UK's economy is now smaller than France's. So yes, 6th biggest economy as things stand.
Your 'latest' figures are for Q2 2016 and are therefore too old. The Brexit referendum came at the very end of Q2, so the results of it cannot be seen by looking at Q2 GDP figures. The negative effects of Brexit on the UK economy will be seen in our Q3, Q4, 2017, 2018, 2019, etc, figures - most markedly in the event that we leave the EEA. This really is the crucial point now - even though we are leaving the EU, continued EEA membership is vital to minimise the economic damage. Theresa May understands this.
@tangerine
A very certain statement in a time of great uncertainty. Note that I said 'if Scotland leaves. Which it very well may do, especially if Brexit means leaving the EEA. Should we negotiate continued membership of the EEA, then I would agree that Scotland will probably not leave the UK. Should we go and leave the EEA, I expect Scotland to leave the UK.
Japan Violet
@ampas
Of course German industry would prefer Greece leaves, I'm not sure why you would even think it is necessary to state such an obvious thing. However, it is extremely sad that the British are now being compared to Greece.
goldorak
Agree with that. Brexit means London and the UK as a whole are no longer 'one' of EU's biz capitals (didnt say 'Europe', they are obviously still one). They represent themselves, period.
It makes a lot of sense for multinational non euro companies to have their euro hq on the continent rather than London. Switzerland, France and Germany are the epicentre of euro pharma for example, any non euro pharmaceutical comp should treat the UK as a satellite of Europe, i.e not a priority in terms of investment.
kurisupisu
Good luck with moving to bureaucratic Europe with its 9-5 mentality and lack of English speakers. The UK has a major number of Japanese linked retailers catering to Japanese tastes,even out in the surburbs. Schools for Japanese expats? West London has the biggest in Europe and UK education has high regard. I don't see Mr Tanaka wanting to spend time in Berlin or Prague anytime soon .........
Ampas
@Japan Violet - Sure it's obvious, but it has a huge bearing on the terms under which the UK leaves the EU. Many people think the UK will get screwed, the EU and Angela Merkel want this to happen, but corporate Europe does not. And nobody is comparing the UK to Greece, you do know the difference between the EU and the Eurozone, right?
M3M3M3
@ClippetyClop
The new Top Gear is a good metaphor for post-Brexit Britain. A deluded organisation who thought it could just sever ties with its most valuable long-standing partners and believed it would replicate its previous success by signing new deals with others. Everyone told them that they were crazy, that they had made a huge mistake and that they would fail.. but they insisted that everyone was being far too pessimistic, stuck in the past, and that they were going to make a success of it. Of course, it was a bigger disaster than any of us ever imagined was even possible. New Top Gear = Brexit Britain, just wait for it.
itsonlyrocknroll
The full 15 page report ...
Japan’s Message to the United Kingdom and the European Union...
http://www.mofa.go.jp/files/000185466.pdf
This paragraph alone sums up the economic rationality, context, fact and reasoning, that is perfectly justifiable and warranted.....A strong message or the EU as Great Britain.
Convinced that the UK and the EU will continue to share with us the responsibility to lead the free trade system, Japan expects the EU and the UK to demonstrate to the world their equivocal commitment to this end. In this regard, we will be sending a strong message to the world by working together to reach agreement in principle on the ongoing Japan-EU EPA negotiations as early as possible this year. It is our sincere hope, in particular, that the UK, until the time it officially leaves the EU, will fully participate in the EPA negotiations in a responsible manner and will fulfill honestly what has been agreed
At the very least Brexit, a phrase coined allegedly by Willem Buiter and Ebrahim Rahbari, two economists from the Citigroup, although I am inclined to believe both referred to Grexit due to the timing. has provoked a much needed political and public debate. Increasingly incendiary however... to quote sangetsu03. The EU still has to contend with Greece, and Italy, who are teetering on economic collapse. Not an exaggeration. Reform of the single monetary system, which will envisage all 19 eurozone nations entering into or introducing debt investment Eurobonds or break up is paramount to recapitalization
Hi M3, immigration from central and yes Eastern Europe has opened up a gastronomic experience that has transformed the UK palate a variety of favours, from Lithuania Cepelinai, to Spanish Andalusian cuisine.
Undoubtedly there has been a level of incompetence in agricultural production, however, to name one of my favorites culturally Huevos a la flamenca ingredients was never going to source locally. in the UK.
ClippetyClop
@Yoshitsune Once again no evidence I see. "As it stands" = "How I think it will stand" for you it seems. All the data coming out this week seems to show that the UK economy is in good shape after Brexit, with consumer confidence high and manufacturing flying.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/09/01/post-brexit-recession-fears-prove-to-be-nonsense-markit-pmi-rebounds-to-expansion/#4c8a5523419a
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/09/03/brexit-shock-threatens-to-do-far-more-damage-to-the-european-eco/
Yoshitsune
Clippety,
You haven't responded to the fact I pointed out - the GDP and growth figures you linked to are too out of date to take Brexit into account. These new links you've just given are concerned with entirely different measures.
As for that Forbes article proclaiming that 'Brexit fears prove to be nonsense'... given that Brexit hasn't even happened yet, it's a little early to be saying that.
The only thing we know for sure so far is that the pound has nosedived, as expected. The knock-on effects of that on import costs, the consumer price index, and ultimately consumer confidence, will take some time to come through - If you've convinced yourself that the fact they haven't come through yet means they are not going to, then you are engaging in some serious wishful thinking.
itsonlyrocknroll
Certainly, the UK economy has not in the short term toppled off Beachy Head.
The prevailing Euro-zone economic forecast for growth is depressingly flat , even after all the ECB cheap as chips loans to a multitude of delinquent South European banks of all shapes and sizes.
The stimulus measures and packages are unprecedented in modern times. ECB support has failed to reverse or even halt a fresh crisis in the Euro-zone. I sincerely thought that the prospect of UK the leaving would be a catalyst for change. Economic events within the Euro-zone could well supersede GB evoking article 50.
For a multitude of reasons, politically expedient or not. The UK government is, a will continue to be the leading advocate of TTIP and Japan-EU EPA. Explaining the seething anger and frustration to the Government of Japan and President Obama behind the decision of the UK electorate at the ballot box. Democracy is sometimes unpredictable.
ClippetyClop
@Yoshi, so your entire argument is based on the weaker pound?
No, we know more than that now. That isn't the only thing we know. It might be the only indicator you are focused on. Hence the info on August manufacturing & factory activity that I linked to. You made 2 important claims 1) Britain's Economy is the 6th biggest, not 5th 2) Britain was, but no longer is growing faster than the Eurozone. Prove these and I'll believe you.
Yoshitsune
Not at all. What 'entire argument' do you think I'm making? My argument is that the crucial point now is that the UK remains in the EEA even as it leaves the EU. This Japanese document warning that Japanese companies may leave the EU is basically indicating that if we leave the EEA, we lose a lot of business; if we stay in the EEA, it won't be nearly as bad. That's my argument. Which has not so much to do with the weak pound.
You have again avoided the point that the GDP figures you linked to are too old to be relevant to a debate about the impact of Brexit.
I'm not ignoring these indicators. I'm pointing out that August 2016 is far too early for these indicators to tell us anything much about the impact of leaving the EU. There is a very long way to go; if you've satisfied yourself that Brexit will not damage the UK economy based merely on the evidence of decent manufacturing and consumer data in August 2016, you are engaging in serious wishful thinking.
seanwd20
Japan is the third largest economy while the UK is only the sixth, so Japan has every right to lecture them.
iLikeTurtles
@Japan Violet
Maybe you don't realise how idiotic and prejudiced your stupid comments make you sound.
People love to hate the UK, mainly because at some point in history we owned their country or kicked them in a war, but the fact is we have faced tougher challenges than this and come out smiling. Unlike many European countries, we are highly regarded on the world stage in our own right, and will do just fine on our own. Talk us down if you like, you will merely look foolish when we prove you wrong. Have a nice day :)
itsonlyrocknroll
Hi Yoshitsune, the UK referendum both monetary and fiscal, defines a point in time, June 23rd.
Currency devaluation at it most poignant ... Jan 2016. £1- $1.50 – July 2016 £1- $1.28.... having a more negative effect within the EU economy than in the UK. Reducing retail prices, making exports more profitable, inevitably leads and encourages companies and indeed consumers to buy more domestically manufactured goods, especially from secondary wholesale markets.
This economic behavior can be traces back to 2006.
ignore all the analytical modelling stuff, and scroll down to chapter 3 exchange rates and trade flows
The results suggest that large depreciation substantially boost exports. By definition, the episodes studied are associated with large depreciation, and the results indicate that these depreciation average 25 percent in real effective terms over five years (Figure 3.4). Export prices in foreign currency fall by about 10 percent, with much of the adjustment occurring in the first year. The implied pass-through elasticity of export prices relative to the real exchange rate is thus about 0.4, similar to the estimate based on trade equations already noted. Export volumes rise more gradually, by about 10 percent over five years This response indicates an average price elasticity of exports of about –0.7, which is stronger than the elasticity of –0.3 estimated using the traditional trade equations discussed earlier. This stronger estimated price elasticity could reflect the clearer identification strategy based on large exchange rate depreciation episodes. All the results are statistically significant at conventional levels .
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2015/02/pdf/c3.pdf
Essentially and stands to reason this devaluation cannot or will not be allowed to remain (trade weighted) at least against a basket of major currencies
Yoshitsune
Hi Rocknroll,
Cannot or will not be allowed? Allowed by whom? By the British govt?! Are you of the opinion that they are actually in control of the devaluation of sterling, or able to reverse it as and when they wish?
And are you of the opinion that the devaluation is going to improve living standards? Sounds like the same stuff Abenomics is dreamed up on.
I recall that in our last conversation, pre-referendum, you predicted that sterling would only see a single-digit fall if Brexit won; you underestimated the impact on the currency. Perhaps you have also underestimated the impact on the economy as a whole. Of course, a lot depends on what is eventually agreed between the UK and EU, in particular UK membership of the EEA.
itsonlyrocknroll
Hi Yoshitsune, I calculated, trade weighted, the pound would settle at around lower 3% and upper 5%. At present it is 11%, taking into account that 23rd referendum, could be construed as an competitive devaluation.
I can purchase my favorite single malt Scotch whisky at almost 9% reduction price retail.
The BOE has been a tad slippery with an interest cut from 0.5% to 0.25%, factor in an aggressive monetary policy to meet the 2% inflation target. Underestimate or overestimate,my aim is fundamentally to reduce the risk of adverse price movements in an asset. UK evoking article 50 is at least 12/18 months away, a lifetime.
Mrs May is at best a financial milk monitor, a former senior advisor for association for payment clearing services.
Hand on heart European financial stability facility cannot circumvent accumulated euro-zone sovereign debts.
Yoshitsune
Where? In Japan? That's not going to be much comfort to people in Sunderland if and when Nissan pulls out of their city. And if they want to console themselves with a pint of Guinness, they'll find it costs a bit more than they were used to.
itsonlyrocknroll
Yes in Japan....
However even heralding the dire warning of British car industry that leaving the EU could put jobs at risk. Sunderland, voted a resounding 61.3% to leave the EU.
Democracy with a consolation pint of Guinness.
Yoshitsune
They didn't herald the warning... they ignored it. Not because of any reasoned economic arguments like the ones you yourself put forth, but because of 25 years of anti-EU campaigning by UKIP, the Daily Hell, Emperor Murdoch, et al. Sunderland was one of the most pro-Brexit areas, and is one of the areas that is likely to be worst affected by it. I doubt that that will bother the likes of Farage sipping his victory ale or Lawson in his French mansion.
oikawa
Madness. My friend's brother-in-law lives in Sunderland. Voted Leave, already lost his job. Ditto my friend in London. Survival of the thickest.
Fred Wallace
China's second largest. I'm sure they too have every right to lecture Japan. Think about that for a second.
sangetsu03
The joke of all jokes. Japan's definition of "free trade" is very one-sided, and applies only to Japanese goods exported to other countries. Japan conveniently forgets that "free trade" is supposed to be a two-way street. Look at Japan's recent "free trade" agreement with Australia, one side got zero tariffs on goods almost instantly, the other side, well, didn't. Guess which side got the zero tariffs? Guess which side got bent over and shafted?
When it come to free trade agreements with Europe, I hope these agreements are the real thing. Only Germany has had the balls to stand up to Japan in regards to market access, which is why you see so many German cars in Japan. If the rest of Europe does the same, perhaps there will actually be something resembling free trade.
But as it is, my customers in Europe have to pay duties on my Japanese goods ranging from 20% to 40%, while those in America pay no duties at all. Needless to say, America is a much greater consumer of my goods than Europe. But then South American and African countries charge more than 60%. It is quite funny that the countries with the lowest tariffs seem to have the highest quality of living, and the countries with the highest tariffs have the lowest quality of living. Are you listening, Japan?
kurisupisu
Japan urges the UK to continue the free movement of EC nationals whereas Japan is one of the most exclusionary countries on this planet!!!!!
More than slightly hypocritical methinks!!!!!!