Toyota to replace gas pedals in 3.8 million vehicles in U.S.

Toyota's reputation is fast diminishing with more of these recalls, and their slide down the reliability tables. I wonder if their over-expansion and excessive focus on being world number one led directly or indirectly to these quality issues?

First they tried to cover it up saying that the floor mats had caused the problem - well now the truth comes out, it really was the gas pedal. I'll have to think twice now before I buy another Toyota. They seem to be picking up bad habits from the American manufactures.

This is not enough. As with imported baby strollers here in Japan, Toyota vehicles in the United States are obviously dangerous. Indeed, the head of government agency that handles consumer affairs in the United States should take a leaf out of Japan's book. Specifically, a press conference should be organized and the official in question should actively dissuade US consumers from buying these Japanese deathtraps.

It probably isn't the "gas pedal" either. There is no direct connection between the "gas pedal" and the engine. The pedal sends a signal to a computer that regulates the engine. I am thinking it is a software problem that Toyota doesn't know how to fix. Anyway, don't be a pinhead, just put the transmission in neutral if this happens to you.

Al least the 911 operator should have had the brain power to tell the caller just to put the car in neutral.

On the lexus in in the article the transmission is electronic. There's also no key to turn off power to the car. The driver of the car was a State Patrol officer who went through a fair amount of drivers training. There's a strong suspicion reported that he couldn't shut the car off or take it out of gear.

Specifically, a press conference should be organized and the official in question should actively dissuade US consumers from buying these Japanese deathtraps.

The fair trade advocates would be wet themselves in anger. They never say anything about Japan's behavior though...

That is interesting motytrah, thanks for the post!

Is the gas pedal design on American Toyotas different to Toyotas in other countries? Or is this a possible problem with ALL Toyotas worldwide??

The Toyota transmission system is the future in car electronics. This is known as the "Fly-by-Wire" System currently used in Boeing 777, Airbus 320/319, Embraer 170 and later models. Perhaps , the circuitry is controlled by a software in which there is a bug. This will be the start of the cars that can be really controlled by James Bond 007 from his hand-held device.... because the next part of the car that will be controlled by "Fly-by-Wire" is the Steering wheel in which if you reverse the program, turning the steering into clockwise will turn the car on the left side :)

A Massachusetts-based safety consultant who has investigated the Toyota cases, however, has found more than 2,000 incidents involving 16 deaths and 243 injuries potentially tied to the Toyota gas pedals.

"Safety Consultant"??? or lawyer looking for a piece of the lawsuit pie?

Car manufacturers cannot take responsibility for dealers and users installing the wrong floor mats. Toyota is saying that if you use the standard floor mats, installed properly, there are no issues.

Basically, what they are politely saying is: If you're gonna use after-market or non-standard issue floor mats, make sure you install them properly, and make sure you check the clearance between the mat and the brake/accelerator pedals, and don't blame us if your accelerator pedal gets stuck and you don't have the presence of mind to reach down and un-hook the floor mat, or put the car in neutral.

With all due respect to the people who lost their lives, changing the gear to neutral would have done the trick. And to Motytrah who said

There's a strong suspicion reported that he couldn't shut the car off or take it out of gear.

... a strong suspicion??? Where are your sources? "He couldn't.."? or "He didn't know how to"? Given the fact that the car was a loaner from the dealership, I can understand that he wasn't aware that he had to hold down the engine on/off button for 3 seconds to turn the car off. However, any responsible driver who sits behind the wheel of an unfamiliar car should AT LEAST find out how to switch gears before they start driving.

The fact that all of these "claims" are coming from the US doesn't make it very credible in my opinion. Are there any other similar cases anywhere in the world outside of the US?

I really can't see where Toyota is to blame, but even if they are innocent, they have to take action and pay money through the nose because that's America, land of opportunity where McDonald's had to pay millions to a plaintif who burnt herself because their coffee was "too hot".

I had a break pedal get jammed once and I could not break. Stupid beer bottle. We only drank out of cans after that. I will stick with my choice of Daihatsu and Honda. Will warn all my relatives state side that do not watch tv news.

Yelnats: Daihatsu is Toyota.

I really can't see where Toyota is to blame, but even if they are innocent, they have to take action and pay money through the nose because that's America, land of opportunity where McDonald's had to pay millions to a plaintif who burnt herself because their coffee was "too hot".

Ah here come the excuses!!! It was the driver's fault. Cars accelarate all the time for no reason. Poor Toyota... LOL

Oh you should check the actual details of that McD's case. It's not what it seems...

Moderator: No more references to the McDonald's case please. It is not relevant to this discussion.

Junnama: Here are just a few websites that I've started reading, in an effort to understand "unintended acceleration" from all different perspectives.

http://autocoverup.com/#STS=g2h7q7j8.1v3y

http://mfes.com/suddenaccel.html

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-04-13-unintended-acceleration_x.htm

In the end, I can't help but repeat myself by saying: Why are all of these cases in the US? (Because the same cars are sold in different countries around the world)

I don't understand why some on JT always have to stick to one side or the other, no matter the facts. If this were Ford or Audi or the like would you be so quick to make excuses? Sure, Toyota makes a great product, but look at the facts of this recall. They were dragged kicking and screaming, prematurely announced that they were "innocent", and then finnaly asked for a voluntary replacement not a mangatory recall. If you believe they are sincere about this recall, ask yourself why they would hold off and announce on the afternoon of the beginning of a long Thanksgiving holiday. #1 rule of PR firms.....if you want to bury it, let it out on the night before a weekend. Yes, it is the fly-by-wire that I believe is the problem they are worried about. Fortunately for Toyota, they have better "we are perfect" lobbyists and PR firms working for them than Obama.

Toyota Canada has already indicated they will likely join the recall. The last major Toyota recall (less than a year ago) started in the US and spread to other countries quickly.

Oh dear...it's the US bullying Toyota...Excuses...Excuses...

Nichibotsu:

If this were Ford or Audi or the like would you be so quick to make excuses?

Regarding unintended acceleration? Absolutely.

I also speak from personal experience of unintended acceleration, which I posted on Oct 26 on a separate article about the same subject:

Speaking from personal experience, about 8 years ago, I experienced unintended acceleration in my '97 Dodge Dakota pick-up truck in Canada. As I approached a stop sign and took my foot off of the gas pedal to brake, my engine starting to rev at about 3-4000 RPM. I put the car in neutral, stopped at the side of the road, and turned the engine off. To make a long story short, I found out there was a PINE CONE stuck in the throttle of my engine! Despite the freakish odds of something like that happening,..... it happened! ...To me! That's why I believe that it's hard to blame this problem on one cause, and even more difficult to find the exact cause for each case, including the August accident in California.

...It's really easy to blame a machine, but very difficult in this particular case to prove innocence or guilt. If you've read my previous post, you'll know that I have been looking at both sides of the coin by checking out various websites. But EVEN STILL, all I can gather is that NOBODY KNOWS the exact cause of each case of unintended acceleration...

I've also checked out a few internet blogs on this subject, and some people go so far as to report (erroneously of course) that Toyota's fix for the situation will include some sort of string to be attached to the floor mat for people to pull on if the accelerator pedal gets stuck!!! The things some people will say and rumors they will spread to bash Toyota are UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!

I'm NOT saying that I don't believe that these cars accelerated unintentionally, however I AM saying that there is no evidence in my opinion that shows it's a defect that TOYOTA is responsible for.

I AM saying that there is no evidence in my opinion that shows it's a defect that TOYOTA is responsible for.

Except Toyota's recall of 3.8 million vehicles to fix a defect they are responsible for.

Junnama:

Toyota Canada has already indicated they will likely join the recall.

An obvious step if Toyota US starts the recall. But seriously, PLEASE FIND ME A REPORT OF TOYOTA UNINTENDED ACCELERATION CASES FOUND IN CANADA, OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY! I can't find one... they're ALL in the US! Mysterious, isn't it?

Here's a link about Audi's unintended acceleration case back in the eighties.

http://www.audifans.com/kb/Unintended_acceleration

Except Toyota's recall of 3.8 million vehicles to fix a defect they are responsible for.

Junnama: Did you see my reference in my previous post to the Audi case back in the eighties? Audi was NOT responsible for those sudden acceleration cases, but they STILL modified their vehicles so that the engine would shut off if incompetent drivers hit the brakes and the accelerator pedal at the same time. It looks like Toyota is going to be blamed for this issue NO MATTER WHAT. That's why they're finally going to take action regardless if they are directly responsible, regardless if the root cause of each case has been positively identified or not, before it drags there reputation down too far... but it may be too late.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration issued a statement Wednesday that the recalled Toyota and Lexus vehicles do have an "underlying defect" that involves the design of the accelerator pedal and the driver's foot well.

.....

"We started saying it was driver error," Audi General Sales Manager James G. Wolter told reporters on his publicity tour. "If there is anything we wish we could recall, it's the statement 'driver error.' The intent was not to blame the drivers. The intent was to say that we can't find anything wrong with the car. To come to our own logical conclusion that it was driver error was a mistake."

Sound familiar?

Proxy: Al least the 911 operator should have had the brain power to tell the caller just to put the car in neutral.

I read an article about that case in the LA Times. The transmission was not responding. Nothing on the car was responding. It just kept speeding up. That's why they guy ended up calling 911.

Tahoochi....the Audi case is a bit different. You had short burts of acceleration that could be blamed on driver failure. The problem with the Toyotas is that there is a prolonged period of acceleration, even when the driver is taking steps to try to stop it.

An obvious step if Toyota US starts the recall. But seriously, PLEASE FIND ME A REPORT OF TOYOTA UNINTENDED ACCELERATION CASES FOUND IN CANADA, OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY! I can't find one... they're ALL in the US! Mysterious, isn't it?

Not really, considering Toyota only uses that floormat for the US/Canadian market. And "sudden acceleration" with Toyota products has killed more people in the last 8 years, 19, than all other car makers combined.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-fi-toyota-recall8-2009nov08,0,6120294.story

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-recall7-2009nov07,0,1218869.story

SuperLib read before you post; motytrah gave me a good response and it is posted right after mine.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration issued a statement Wednesday that the recalled Toyota and Lexus vehicles do have an "underlying defect" that involves the design of the accelerator pedal and the driver's foot well.

Junnama: Well I certainly am interested in knowing exactly what the "underlying defect" is, and I hope Toyota explains it thoroughly to its customers. Sudden acceleration is the problem, not the cause. For the NHTSA to say that the defect is in the "design of the accelerator pedal AND the driver's foot well", that means to me that the cause is not engine related, but related to shape. If the shape of the accelerator pedal and foot well is indeed the cause, and all 3.8 million of these vehicles have the same shaped accelerator and foot well, then why, oh why is the problem not ocurring in ALL 3.8 million of the vehicles? ...same shape should equal same problem. Doesn't make sense to me.

(Audi General Sales Manager) ...The intent was not to blame the drivers. The intent was to say that we can't find anything wrong with the car... Sound Familiar?

You have a point about blaming the drivers, however, my point also is that it goes both ways; even if there is nothing wrong with the car, the entire mass media and those who have experienced sudden acceleration but have no idea why it happened will all naturally blame the car maker, just like 60 minutes erroneously blamed Audi in their "report".

The transmission was not responding. Nothing on the car was responding

Superlib: I highly doubt that "Nothing on the car was responding..." as you say. The steering was responding... My point is, if "Nothing" including the transmission was responding, then the NHTSA would have DEFINITELY announced more than the floor mat being over-sized, launched an investigation into failing transmissions, and this whole recall would involve more than just accelerator pedals.

Not really, considering Toyota only uses that floormat for the US/Canadian market. And "sudden acceleration" with Toyota products has killed more people in the last 8 years, 19, than all other car makers combined.

You didn't really answer my question. Even if the floor mats are the cause (which BTW nobody knows for sure if they are the sole cause or not) and they are only sold in the US/Canada, ALL of the individual cases I find on the web (even the ones in your link to the LA Times) only refer to cases/claims made in the US. I even tried looking at Canadian news sites to see if there are cases of accidents reported that were caused by unintended acceleration, and nothing. So why only in the US?

And "sudden acceleration" with Toyota products has killed more people in the last 8 years, 19, than all other car makers combined.

You're right, these numbers certainly don't present a good case for Toyota, but this statement still doesn't clarify WHAT THE EXACT CAUSE OF UNINTENDED ACCELERATION IS, and therefore, how can you blame Toyota? I agree that Toyota is treading on thin water here, but I still don't believe you can blame someone for a cause that isn't clear.

I highly doubt that "Nothing on the car was responding..." as you say. The steering was responding...

Well I'm sure the doors were opening, too. The point is that the guy made every effort to stop the car and in the end actually picked up his phone and called 911.

My point is, if "Nothing" including the transmission was responding, then the NHTSA would have DEFINITELY announced more than the floor mat being over-sized, launched an investigation into failing transmissions, and this whole recall would involve more than just accelerator pedals.

That's what people are trying to do now, but Toyota is making it difficult. They're changing "sudden acceleration" claims into "brake failure" claims, then suddenly the number of "sudden acceleration" claims gets significantly reduced.

The problematic floor mats themselves isn't really the entire issue, it points to a larger where people are unable to stop the cars when/if the floor mats cause sudden acceleration. All car manufacturers except for Toyota have a kill switch on the engine that's supposed to help with problems like this. And people are learning that a Toyota at full throttle decreases available brake pressure to the point where the brakes can't stop the car. You can't turn the car off unless you hold the engine button for more than 3 seconds, something people in panic mode probably find hard to do. In addition, their transmission has different positions that the driver can shift which has a jagged design, so again something as easy as throwing the car into neutral isn't like in the old days where you just throw the hammer up a notch.

That produces a result where, like I said before, more people are dying in sudden acceleration crashes with Toyotas than all other car makers combined.

ALL of the individual cases I find on the web (even the ones in your link to the LA Times) only refer to cases/claims made in the US.

You'll probably find a reasonable answer if you look at the total number of cars sold in the US vs. Canada. It's not like it's happening to half of all Toyota owners. The problems with the floor mats has only recently been exposed by the media in the past few months in the US. If you go back and check for American stories 6 months ago you'll probably find none, but that doesn't mean the problem didn't exist.

still doesn't clarify WHAT THE EXACT CAUSE OF UNINTENDED ACCELERATION IS, and therefore, how can you blame Toyota?

That's what people are now trying to figure out. But again, we're talking about Toyota taking the lion's share of sudden acceleration cases. It's either the car or it's the people, at which point you'd have to argue that people who buy Toyotas are somehow worse drivers to a much larger extent.

Superlib: Ok, let's get this straight. you said that the transmission wasn't even working for the family in California. What I am saying is this: Where are the references and links to the proof of this??? None? Even a recent article saying that the NHTSA has opened an investigation on failing Toyota transmissions that won't shift into neutral??? None??? Well then please don't post such ridiculous assumptions.

Even if the actual 911 caller (which BTW wasn't even made by the driver like you said) said the car wasn't shifting into neutral, how do we know that it really wasn't working??? Maybe the driver didn't know HOW to shift into neutral? (the car was a loaner from the dealership right?) In which case Toyota certainly could not be held responsible.

All car manufacturers except for Toyota have a kill switch on the engine that's supposed to help with problems like this.

I suggest you do some more research on that one. And what is your definition of a "kill switch"? What triggers it? Where is it located?

It's either the car or it's the people

Maybe it's because I work closely with engineers, but I don't think everything is so black and white as you do Superlib. There isn't always one answer or one person to blame. Many times there are several different causes to a problem, and actually, if you read my previous post about my personal experience with unintended acceleration, you should be able to recognize that sometimes the cause can be something OTHER THAN the car or the "people" like you say.

You do have a valid point in that Toyota is taking the lion's share of sudden acceleration cases. But my logic tells me that if the cars themselves hold a design flaw as the NHTSA says, then why is sudden acceleration not happening to more than just a few hundred out of 4 million cars?

A design defect means that EVERY car has the flaw and therefore, EVERY owner of those 4 million cars should be experiencing sudden acceleration.

But they're not.

Then why are these few hundred people experiencing it?

Because they are introducing some outside factor that increases the chances of sudden acceleration (ie. the over-sized floor mats).

Then why are owners of other car brands who have over-sized floor mats not experiencing sudden acceleration as much?

Their accelerator pedal and foot well design allow enough clearance for owners to put almost any sized floor mat in their cars without the mat getting stuck.

So why doesn't Toyota do the same thing?

They are now with this recall because of pressure from the NHTSA, media, and consumers who have experienced sudden acceleration. But if you ask me and probably many other Toyota owners, this is not fixing an "underlying defect", this is "idiot-proofing".

Tahoochi,

Let's get this down to the nub of the matter:

The statement from the NHTSA says in unparsed words (meaning language that can not be taken to mean anything else) that there is a "design flaw" in 3.8 million Toyota's. Are you saying the NHTSA is lying?

Are you saying the NHTSA is lying?

Junnama: No. I'm saying their assessment is unfair. I don't blindly believe and agree with every word the they say.

I found the official report on the ODI site (Office of Defects Investigation), which is the part of the NHTSA that handles defects and recall investigations. Here is the link to the web site (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/index.cfm), but you have to follow specific menus in order to get to the actual report. You can do this by clicking "Safety Recalls", then "Search for a Recall", then search by vehicle and follow the prompts for the search by picking '2008', 'Toyota', 'Tacoma', (as an example) from the drop down menus.

Here is part of the report:

TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2004-2010 PASSENGER VEHICLES. THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL CAN GET STUCK IN THE WIDE OPEN POSITION DUE TO ITS BEING TRAPPED BY AN UNSECURED OR INCOMPATIBLE DRIVER'S FLOOR MAT...

TOYOTA FILED AN AMENDED DEFECT REPORT ON NOVEMBER 25, 2009, STATING THAT DEALERS WILL MODIFY THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL AND, ON CERTAIN VEHICLES, ALTER THE SHAPE OF THE FLOOR SURFACE UNDER THE PEDAL...

So here's my argument: The ODI report states,

"THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL CAN GET STUCK IN THE WIDE OPEN POSITION DUE TO ITS BEING TRAPPED BY AN UNSECURED OR INCOMPATIBLE DRIVER'S FLOOR MAT..."

...so Toyota and other car manufacturers have to anticipate people incorrectly using or replacing the equipment on their cars AFTER they have bought it and owned it for god knows how long? That to me is beyond Toyota's or any other car manufacturer's responsibility.

A simple warning label on the floor mat, and in the driver's manual will do (if there isn't already).

In the California case with the loaner Lexus from the dealership, I think the dealership should take responsibility for equipping an incompatible floor mat... but, if everyone says that Toyota should just spend hundreds of millions of dollars to change the design of the throttle pedal and the foot well so that any one can drive with any kind of interference in the foot well without the throttle getting stuck, then Toyota is not in a position to argue at this point, are they?

And I guess we'll just have to wait and see, after all of these measures are put into place by Toyota, if the "sudden acceleration" problem really is eliminated. I can almost guarantee that people will continue to experience sudden acceleration, and they will again, without a doubt, blame Toyota.

Ok, let's get this straight. you said that the transmission wasn't even working for the family in California. What I am saying is this: Where are the references and links to the proof of this??? None? Even a recent article saying that the NHTSA has opened an investigation on failing Toyota transmissions that won't shift into neutral??? None??? Well then please don't post such ridiculous assumptions.

You're right. It was an assumption that I made. I assumed that a law enforcement officer with 19 years on the job which included inspecting vehicles would think to throw the car into neutral before someone else thought of calling 911. Talk about a wild assumption....

What most likely happened was that I mixed up the information from another runaway Toyota:

"Guadalupe Gomez of Redwood City said he was held hostage for 20 miles on a Bay Area freeway by a 2007Camry traveling more than 100 mph. Gomez was unable to turn off the engine or shift into neutral and then burned out his brakes before slamming into another car and killing that driver, said attorney Louis Franecke, who represented that victim's family.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-recall18-2009oct18,0,739395.story?page=2

I suggest you do some more research on that one. And what is your definition of a "kill switch"? What triggers it? Where is it located?

"One remedy being considered by Toyota implicitly acknowledges what critics have been saying for almost 10 years: that the company's highly computerized engine control system lacks a fail-safe mechanism that can quickly extinguish sudden acceleration events, whether they are caused by floor mats, driver errors or even unknown defects in the electronic control system, as alleged in some lawsuits."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-recall18-2009oct18,0,739395.story?page=1

and

"According to Wright, their lawyer, Toyota began installing fully electronic throttle systems in its cars in 2001. He said the vast majority of its vehicles use them today. He said that a software fix that automatically puts the engine into idle while braking could potentially resolve the issue. Some automakers, such as BMW, use the software safety feature."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-recall7-2009nov07,0,1218869.story

You do have a valid point in that Toyota is taking the lion's share of sudden acceleration cases. But my logic tells me that if the cars themselves hold a design flaw as the NHTSA says, then why is sudden acceleration not happening to more than just a few hundred out of 4 million cars?

It's not a few hundred. It's thousands. And the inspection process has been flawed from the beginning and has thrown out a majority of the cases when it should not have. For example, the NHTSA assumed that brakes will overcome full throttle, so initially it threw out all uncontrolled acceleration claims and chalked it up to brake failure. Toyota later admitted that the brakes sometimes will not stop their cars under full throttle, but the NHTSA does not reopen cases so now those cases are dead.

And a design flaw doesn't mean it happens 100% of the time. I'm guessing 100% of Ford Pintos didn't explode upon rear impact, just as 100% of Ford ambulances didn't explode during accidents when they had their problem with the fuel tank location. But when you read, "In 2008, the NHTSA opened a probe of the Toyota Tacoma after a consumer found that the truck had accumulated 32 times as many sudden-acceleration complaints as any other pickup" it kind of makes you think there's something wrong with how they made the vehicle.

In the California case with the loaner Lexus from the dealership, I think the dealership should take responsibility for equipping an incompatible floor mat...

...and the rest of us will have to go on thinking that it's absurd that something as trivial as an incompatible floor mat would lead to the death of more people than all other automakers combined. The fact is that you should be able to stop a car regardless of the cause. In Toyota's case, it's not that easy.

@Tahoochi The issue at hand is the cars in question are high end models with "Fly by Wire" accelerators, brakes and transmissions.

When GM had a deadly cruise control defect in the 90's it took half a decade to figure out what the problem was. These cases are fairly recent and with all due respect the cars are much more complicated now than when GM was having problems.

Fact: The accelerator does NOT disengage when the brakes are hit. This is acknowledged by Toyota as by design. Why?

As to why the issues are in the US? Because the US buys more Lexus than any other country. Last year there were only 26K sold in Japan, only 44K sold in Europe and over 270K sold in the US.

I have always hated lawyers for their overly protected cause to their clients. Years ago, I happened to drive an older Toyota Corona which suddenly accelerated as the engine "raced". But I was quick to react and simply popped the transmission into neutral and then promptly shut off the engine after I safely pulled over and stopped. But would I have sued Toyota? Of course not. Once I had safely pulled over, I raised the hood to see if I could determine the cause. As I recall, a linkage to the accelerator had disengaged in such a manner to cause the engine to "race". Walking around the car, I searched to find a hairpin like wire to temporarily substitute for the disengaged linkage. Once "repaired" I safely drove home. I personally feel that Toyota was overly protective of it's reputation along with Lexus in order to keep it's ranking. While there are crooked companies, I feel there are way too many lawyers "protecting its' clients" going after the "deep pockets" of large corporations.