U.S. billionaire's hedge fund dumps Sony stake

Well, OK. Goodbye.

However, it said Sony still has “a long way to go and we continue to believe that more urgency will be necessary to definitively turn around the company’s fortunes”.

Substitute the words "Japan" for "Sony", and "country's" for "company's", in the above sentence and you pretty much capture the economic outlook for Japan to a T.

Substitute the words "Japan" for "Sony", and "country's" for "company's", in the above sentence and you pretty much capture the economic outlook for Japan to a T.

It doesn't. It simply shows you don't follow the stock market.

I am pulling for Sony, the underdogs, if a fact brought about by their own actions. I hope they don't stop making TVs with Blu-ray discs in them, since they are the best on the market.

It doesn't. It simply shows you don't follow the stock market.

nigelboy -- actually I do, and if you truly understood economics, as you purport to, you would know that stock market performance does not in any way drive the economy. The plain fact of the matter is that Japan's economy is "fragile" at best, which both domestic and international experts have stated, and without bold actions -- namely some real structural reform -- it may well follow in Sony's path. And then, the stock market you so proudly point to, will tank, just like Sony that now has junk bond status, as international investors bail out.

stock market performance does not in any way drive the economy.

It does in case of Japan. The Japanese people keep cash and don't spend or invest. Money have to circulate for the economy.

Japan's economy is "fragile" at best

Because of the tax hike in April. It is a fact that the economy is much better since Abe came back.

just like Sony that now has junk bond status

Sony is struggling, so sangetsu03's favorite to bash Japan. But there're more than 4 thousand listed companies in Japan. No point to equate Japan with Sony.

I hope they don't stop making TVs with Blu-ray discs in them, since they are the best on the market. yep and many of Sony TVs actually use Sharp screens.

It does in case of Japan. The Japanese people keep cash and don't spend or invest. Money have to circulate for the economy.

tina -- sorry, but you are dead wrong. Yes, Japanese people do keep cash, mostly in Japan Post savings accounts, and most of that money gets invested in government bonds, not the stock market. So stock market performance has almost zero impact on the average person's wealth.

Because of the tax hike in April. It is a fact that the economy is much better since Abe came back.

Debatable, at best. Yes, some large export-driven companies have prospered under Abenomics, but they have not generally passed that along in the form of increasede wages for workers, which is why the domestic economy is still weak. Plus, the weeker yen has meant higher costs of imports -- mainly food and energy -- so the balance of payments is now running well in the red. Care to explain how that adds up to "much better"?

Sony is struggling, so sangetsu03's favorite to bash Japan. But there're more than 4 thousand listed companies in Japan. No point to equate Japan with Sony.

Actually, the whole electronics industry is "struggling" to use your term. And, in some regards you can equate Japan with Sony, since it was once one of the bellweathers of the Japanese economy, and a powerful, trend-setting international brand -- now it is an also-ran. Also, of the 4,000 companies you mention, how many of the domestic-focused ones are doing well?

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nigelboy -- actually I do, and if you truly understood economics, as you purport to, you would know that stock market performance does not in any way drive the economy. The plain fact of the matter is that Japan's economy is "fragile" at best, which both domestic and international experts have stated, and without bold actions -- namely some real structural reform -- it may well follow in Sony's path. And then, the stock market you so proudly point to, will tank, just like Sony that now has junk bond status, as international investors bail out.

I sometimes wonder why you do not see any hypocricy in your own argument. To put it simply, a single company's financial performance and it's relative stock price decline does in no way signal the entire nation's economic outlook. That's why I alluded to the "stock market" (as in Nikkei).

Quality used to be associated with Sony products. Today, I don't have any Sony products. Wait a minute. I still have an old DVD player in the basement somewhere. Also, the old tv in the basement is a Sony. Sony built an empire making mechanical, electronic devices. Today, in this digital age, Sony is no longer the pioneer. It's sad to see any company flounder into oblivion. At least the company is diverse, with gaming and movie studio production. The other electronic giants aren't so diverse and suffer from the same problem as Sony. Good luck to all of them .

I sometimes wonder why you do not see any hypocricy in your own argument.

To put it simply, a single company's financial performance and it's relative stock price decline does in no way signal the entire nation's economic outlook

.

That's why I alluded to the "stock market" (as in Nikkei).

nigelboy -- do you even recall what you posted? You stated that:

It doesn't. It simply shows you don't follow the stock market

When I said Sony's performance and the overall Japanese economic outlook -- without significant reforms -- are analogous. And, that the stock market's performance is in no way helping to contrubute to any economic revival in Japan.

But, to you recent post:

To put it simply, a single company's financial performance and it's relative stock price decline does in no way signal the entire nation's economic outlook.

I say you are dead wrong, and, as usual, ignoring the obvious decay in the Japanese economy. Sony does in fact represent the dozens and dozens of zombie corporations that still exist in Japan living off their former glory days -- who refused to change with the times and could survive due to a protected home market, and lots of cheap bank loans. But the global economy is weeding those companies out, and, unless the reforms needed to move the employees and capital to more competitive companies happens, Japan will continue to decline.

When I said Sony's performance and the overall Japanese economic outlook -- without significant reforms -- are analogous. And, that the stock market's performance is in no way helping to contrubute to any economic revival in Japan.

No. You basically substituted the words from Loeb quote even though he wasn't referring to Japan, in general. Hence I made the response to which counter for they are not analogous. Why is this so hard to understand?

I say you are dead wrong, and, as usual, ignoring the obvious decay in the Japanese economy. Sony does in fact represent the dozens and dozens of zombie corporations that still exist in Japan living off their former glory days -- who refused to change with the times and could survive due to a protected home market, and lots of cheap bank loans. But the global economy is weeding those companies out, and, unless the reforms needed to move the employees and capital to more competitive companies happens, Japan will continue to decline.

No. Sony is one of the Big 8 electronic companies in Japan (one of six Fortune's Global 500 electronic firms) that lost it's market share within Japan which is mainly the cause of their so-called "decay". And this isn't Sony or Japan alone for there are now companies from "developing" nations that are making impact.

Who cares? The moment Sony starts making money, him & the rest will be back in a heartbeat. Afterall that's the only concern for hedgefunds, to make money for investors.

We know three of Japan’s electronics giants, Sony, Sharp, and Pasanonic are stumbling. Japan’s electronics companies are suffering from failure to read dramatic changes in their core markets. Few years ago, Sony decided to streamline the company and do massive restructuring. When Sony say, 'restructure' in Japanese-they really mean get rid of people. Sony put together an early retirement plan and strongly encouraged people to use it. Well, that didn't generate a lot of good feelings. When a company starts promoting early retirement, most people take that as a sign to get out while they still can. And many did. Maybe the idea was that by getting rid of the middle aged and older employees they'd encourage innovation and bring in some young blood. The effect was more like shooting yourself in the foot. The middle-aged engineers and technicians that left were the same ones that brought Sony to greatness. They left behind a younger generation that was insecure, afraid of failure, and only willing to work with technology already in place, not build from the ground up. What was even worse is that during this period, South Korea and Taiwan immediately welcome the experienced Sony techies with open arms. It was better than industrial espionage. Samsung could openly 'buy' the technology that Sony had developed simply by rehiring their best and brightest.

No. Sony is one of the Big 8 electronic companies in Japan (one of six Fortune's Global 500 electronic firms) that lost it's market share within Japan which is mainly the cause of their so-called "decay". And this isn't Sony or Japan alone for there are now companies from "developing" nations that are making impact.

nigelboy -- you really do live in an alternate universe. As afjp330 states, ALL the major Japanese electronics firms have been hemorrahaging red ink the last few years, (and these companies were once the pride of Japan due to their global presence) and, as he further points out, Japan's labor laws have kept them from even performing effective re-structurings. And, you are right, companies from "developing" nations are making a huge impact. The question is what is Sony and Japan doing to respond to that? Are you not aware that Japan's domestic efficiency is among the lowest of the major countries?

nigelboy -- you really do live in an alternate universe. As afjp330 states, ALL the major Japanese electronics firms have been hemorrahaging red ink the last few years, (and these companies were once the pride of Japan due to their global presence) and, as he further points out, Japan's labor laws have kept them from even performing effective re-structurings. And, you are right, companies from "developing" nations are making a huge impact. The question is what is Sony and Japan doing to respond to that? Are you not aware that Japan's domestic efficiency is among the lowest of the major countries?

Sfjp330's post is a copy/paste job in regards to Sony by Jake Adelstein a couple years ago. If you want to talk about Sony exclusively and their failures under Stringer and the current boss, then stick with it. What I'm arguing is the performance of other companies in Japan that are doing quite well, hence the surge in Nikkei under Abe. Your lame attempts to change the goal post again is pathetic.

sfjp330, Samsung is already peaking out. It was a short lived. It's nothing new that the star companies keep changing.

What I'm arguing is the performance of other companies in Japan that are doing quite well, hence the surge in Nikkei under Abe. Your lame attempts to change the goal post again is pathetic.

nigelboy -- actually all I'm trying to do is point how how lame and short-sighted your point is. Even with the recent "surge" as you call it, the Nikkei stands at about 15.5 thousand, which is well less than one-half its record high of nearly 39,0 thousand. While the U.S. Dow average stands at 16.8 thousand, just off its recent all-time high of 17.3 thousand. So, despite gains over the past couple of years, investors clearly are not betting big on Japan, and, you can rest assured, that at the first real sign of weakness in economic performance by Japan, they will bail out fast. The point, which you seem to not to be willing to comprehend is that Japan's stock rise has been fueled by massive government spending, not real growth in domestic demand, as the article so clearly states. As such, the Nikkei is bound to show some growth, as speculators, especially international ones, jump in to make a quick profit. The problem is that the up-turn is not based on solid, long-term growth prospects for major Japanese companies like Sony. Japan has wasted the opportunity provided by the pump-priming by not even making a dent on Abe's "third arrow". So there will be many more Sony's in the coming years, and the Nikkei will sink once again accordingly.

nigelboy -- actually all I'm trying to do is point how how lame and short-sighted your point is. Even with the recent "surge" as you call it, the Nikkei stands at about 15.5 thousand, which is well less than one-half its record high of nearly 39,0 thousand. While the U.S. Dow average stands at 16.8 thousand, just off its recent all-time high of 17.3 thousand. So, despite gains over the past couple of years, investors clearly are not betting big on Japan, and, you can rest assured, that at the first real sign of weakness in economic performance by Japan, they will bail out fast. The point, which you seem to not to be willing to comprehend is that Japan's stock rise has been fueled by massive government spending, not real growth in domestic demand, as the article so clearly states. As such, the Nikkei is bound to show some growth, as speculators, especially international ones, jump in to make a quick profit. The problem is that the up-turn is not based on solid, long-term growth prospects for major Japanese companies like Sony. Japan has wasted the opportunity provided by the pump-priming by not even making a dent on Abe's "third arrow". So there will be many more Sony's in the coming years, and the Nikkei will sink once again accordingly.

Sorry. What I recall a days of Nikkei around 7K and the government did nothing while the Fed was pumping cash like gang busters. Nikkei is rebounding because the companies are making profits. Your argument sounds like that of DPJ lawmaker during a Diet session, just casting doubts. For companies like Sony, there are virtually very little up turn based on "solid, long term" growth prospects. Therefore, the stock price is plummeting and investors bailing out. For others they are opposite with prospects looking good hence reflected on the increase in price as well as maintaining them signaling the lack of investor bailout. These are two polar opposite examples of companies that make up the Nikkei average. So in terms of measuring a corporate performance of companies in a certain country, these numbers are always used as a barometer as first.