What can employers do if workers avoid COVID-19 vaccines?

There's a famous saying we have in Senegal. "You're fired."

The employer should treat an unvaccinated worker as a health & safety risk. As such, the employer is then obliged to minimise or remove that risk. That means removing or standing down the employee until he or she no longer present an health and safety risk to others.

Fire them. Although with current labour-shortages could be self harm. Maybe be reasonable and determine whether any good reason for no vax. Like having had Covid already.......

Vaccinated people who are infected with Delta have the same viral load as an infected unvaccinated person; i.e., they can both equally transmit the virus to others.

An data from Israel shows that vaccines are only about 39% effective at preventing infection with Delta, and this protection wanes considerably after a few months.

Vaccines should be for your own short term personal protection, they do little (if anything) to protect others.

Most American states are "at will" employment states. This means, short of race, sex and age discrimination, employers can fire you for any reason including the color of the sky that day.

That is the law.

The destruction of strong worker rights was the result of decades of conservative policy deliberately created to do so.

Employees have no legal leg to stand on. Conservatives can now sleep in this bed they made.

Depends, if you think science and health only then there is no reason to do anything and focus on the person at risk if you think politically and want to control your population and you are an opportunist then you will of course introduce a vaccine passport and force people to innoculate or they will be totally excluded from the social life, fire them out of their jobs, control them at the terrasse, etc.... like in France right now.

Quite an one-sided discussion. The question is, if employers want vaccinated staff, what can they do or have they done to supply their staff with vaccines? They usually provide office, computer, desk, machines, delivery cars, whatever, and then the employees work with all that. But in this case they demand something they in most cases don’t provide beforehand. That’s just only crazy.

Vaccinated people who are infected with Delta have the same viral load as an infected unvaccinated person; i.e., they can both equally transmit the virus to others.

False, vaccinated people that still get an infection (less than unvaccinated people) and that are symptomatic (again at a lower rate and for less time than unvaccinated people) can get up to the same viral loads, this still means vaccinated people have a much reduced transmission compared with unvaccinated people. Misrepresenting this as you did is disinformation.

Even in your own comment, if vaccines reduce 39% the rates of infection this fact alone would mean reducing very importantly transmission, much more if you also consider rates of becoming symptomatic.

After two years with this virus, I am not going to suddenly become infected now…

I'm done with more injections!

Most American states are "at will" employment states. This means, short of race, sex and age discrimination, employers can fire you for any reason including the color of the sky that day.

That is the law.

So an employer can require that all employees be circumcised?

Vaccinated people who are infected with Delta have the same viral load as an infected unvaccinated person; i.e., they can both equally transmit the virus to others.

An data from Israel shows that vaccines are only about 39% effective at preventing infection with Delta, and this protection wanes considerably after a few months.

So for every 100 people that get infected among a certain number of unvaxxed people, we get 71 infected among the same number of vaxxed people. Not very impressive.

And each of those 71 infected vaxxed people will be just as likely to transmit the virus as the 100 unvaxxed ones, probably more so because many continue to think that being vaxxed prevents transmission.

So for every 100 people that get infected among a certain number of unvaxxed people, we get 71 infected among the same number of vaxxed people. Not very impressive.

Yes it is, because the rates of becoming symptomatic are less than than, and the rates of people that have to be hospitalized even lower, and the rates of people in the ICU lower, and the deaths even lower.

And each of those 71 infected vaxxed people will be just as likely to transmit the virus as the 100 unvaxxed ones, probably more so because many continue to think that being vaxxed prevents transmission.

Again, that is false, because being asymptomatic lowers the risk of transmission, and considering vaccinated people become symptomatic at a lesser degree, and for shorter time it still means the risks of tranmitting the disease are reduced in the same way, I understand antivaxxer groups hate to recognize it, but trying to ignore these facts do not make them disappear.

Again, why isn't natural immunity being discussed when it's just as good as vaccines,

Mostly because it is not, natural immunity comes with much higher risks than vaccination, even for young and healthy people (some people think this is not true, but since they never bring any proof of vaccines having higher risks than the infection it is obvious they are wrong).

That is why it is not discussed as an option, because there is no point in being exposed to higher risks to prevent being exposed to those same risks. it is like saying that losing an arm can prevent you from losing that arm later.

Again, why isn't natural immunity being discussed when it's just as good as vaccines,

Natural immunity is much better than what you get with the vax and it lasts much longer.

If you recovered from Covid, no need to get the vax.

Natural immunity is much better than what you get with the vax and it lasts much longer.

Repeating something without rebuking the perfectly valid reasons why it is not true do not make it less mistaken. There is nothing "better" about something that can only be gained by exposing the person exactly to the risks it is supposed to prevent. Specially because asymptomatic infection is not been proved to be even equivalent to the one obtained by vaccination. So your "better" option is by definition the worse of the two.

After two years with this virus, I am not going to suddenly become infected now…

So you're saying that because you haven't yet been infected, that you never will get infected?

I'm not sure it works like that. But, do as you please.

@virusrex

That is a strawman argument. I am not saying one should intentionally get infected to avoid the vaccine.

But if you recovered from Covid, there is no need to get the vax. Natural immunity is much better than what you get with the vax and it lasts much longer.

So an employer should not demand someone who has recovered from covid to get vaccinated. That person has already acquired better immunity than those who got the vaccine but were never infected.

In fact, if an employer is that worried about the employees' immunity, maybe he should specifically hire recovered people.

That is a strawman argument. I am not saying one should intentionally get infected to avoid the vaccine.

That does not refute in the least why it is not being mentioned in the article, because the purpose is to prevent being exposed to the higher risks that come with the infection. So repeating that getting infected (and getting the risks of complications and death) helps with running those risks again still makes no difference.

But if you recovered from Covid, there is no need to get the vax. Natural immunity is much better than what you get with the vax and it lasts much longer.

That is not necessarily true, comparison has been made with symptomatic infection agains one single vaccine, so it is not valid to generalize.

So an employer should not demand someone who has recovered from covid to get vaccinated.

Of course he can, because not all infections protect the same, nor they come with a certificate that standardizes the immune response as the vaccination does, vaccination in this case would only be replaced by the much more expensive, unconfortable and even risky (as every medical procedure is) periodical determination of specific immunity.

In fact, if an employer is that worried about the employees' immunity, maybe he should specifically hire recovered people.

On the contrary, because this would be promoting the infection in order to get jobs, which is counterproductive just by the well known risks of COVID for the future health of the person. Being worried about the employees health would mean promoting any measure that would reduce their chances of getting the infection, disease, complications or death, as the vaccines do.

Again, why isn't natural immunity being discussed when it's just as good as vaccines

With Covid-19 post infection immunity lasts less than a year. Multiple bouts of Covid-19 were documented before introduction of vaccines. Don't let lack of absolute perfection be an excuse to do nothing. The current vaccines are not perfect but often you find good enough really is good enough.

But if you recovered from Covid, there is no need to get the vax. Natural immunity is much better than what you get with the vax and it lasts much longer.

No it does not. Any immunity gained from an infection with Covid-19 lasts less than a year, much like post head cold or post flu immunity. If it turns out we need an annual Covid shot along with our annual flu shot I a perfectly fine with that. Doing nothing is not a solution to this problem. It guarantees mass deaths and for a sizeable proportion of people, life time debilitating lung damage. For some kids it means a very ugly inflammatory condition that strongly resembles Kawasaki Disease. Science is not really sure why this happens in kids some weeks after a mild case of Covid-19 but it is a condition that can be life threatening for the child. All of this death and disability has serious negative consequences for economic prosperity and the standard of living.

What can employers do if workers avoid COVID-19 vaccines?

They should not be able to do anything. It is incredible that we have reached a point where employers are supposed to be allowed to dictate individual health decisions.