California woman wins suit over Honda hybrid mileage per gallon

0 Good Bad

kurisupisuFeb. 04, 2012 - 03:02PM JST

Honda said 50 mpg

She got 30 mpg

BIG difference!

Refund!

If you read the article properly, it said----- provides plenty of horsepower while still sipping fuel,” and that it would “save plenty of money on fuel with up to 50 mpg during city driving.” UP TO 50MPG !

Honda said 50 mpg

She got 30 mpg

BIG difference!

Refund!

Those of us here in the States are aware of the fact that the mileage number on a motor vehicle is called an EPA estimate. Operative word: estimate. It has nothing to do with real world driving or, in this woman's case, a worst-case scenario.

None of us has any reason to believe (or any proof) that Honda did anything other than the U.S. mandated mileage testing. None of us has reason to believe (or any proof) that Honda advertised numbers based on anything other than the honest results of that testing.

If this woman is hell bent on suing someone, she should sue the EPA. Honda was just doing what U.S. laws say it can do. I will be shocked if Honda doesn't appeal this decision and win.

Oh yeah... your mileage may vary.

This should be a warning to companies (pretty much all of 'em) that over-advertise but severely under-deliver. A little more truth in advertising. Don't over-sell the product so much unless it can walk the walk.

I find it sad how so many seem to want to bend over backwards defering to BIG BIZ while demonizing the little guy.

First of all if BIG BIZ wasnt so full of BS in their ads & crap I cud understand perhaps, this crap where some say they arte publishing figures fro the stupid lab type tests they have to take totally FAIL to see that the same BIG BIZ proudly parades & embelish this BS tot he extreme, pls due tell why said BIG BIZ dont do something like the following:

While lab tests show 50mpg on the street you can expect 30-40mpg..................due pray tell us, I am waiting

Bottom line is BIG BIZ milks the BS lab tests in their marketing & they shud be called on it plain & SIMPLE!

The ad did say up to 50MPG. Up to can mean from 1to 50 inclusive.

GM reclaimed the largest share of the auto market due to the Tsunami Disaster that slowed the parts supply last year. Only to blow it by not re-engineering the battery box of the E-car Chevy volt to prevent them from catching on fire. The last report I read on the Chevy Volt is that the Chevy Dealers are refusing to market them?

Carnahan included in his 26-page decision a long list of misleading representations by Honda that he said Peters had correctly identified. Among them were that the car would use “amazingly little fuel,” “provides plenty of horsepower while still sipping fuel,” and that it would “save plenty of money on fuel with up to 50 mpg during city driving

This passage includes arbitrary claims and Carnahan's decision is arbitrary. His justice.

Peters launched a website, DontSettleWithHonda.org,

Peters on a crusade against Honda. A sort of vendetta? Or she does it out of the goodness of her heart? For justice, or to make a buck?

Stupid case. This only means more ridiculous disclaimers in instruction manuals... The only winners are once again the the American lawyers...

There are no lawyers per say in small claims courts so what you say about the lawyers here holds no water.

Stupid case. This only means more ridiculous disclaimers in instruction manuals... The only winners are once again the the American lawyers... as if they were not skimming enough wealth off the rest of society.

wurthington i would never ever buy a Ford Exploder, so that would never be an issue.

But buying something and in 6 years time finding it doesn't perform like a new one any longer is not unusual and anyone who thinks it should still be new needs to wake up.

@ExportExpert: Of course not... but this is a Car... not a Knife. If you bought a Hybrid in 2006, wouldd you expect to get 40% less fuel economy less than 6 years later. I'm sure this woman's problems started earlier than that. There is already a class action lawsuit against Honda for its 2006 Civic Hybrids and their lack of mpg performance. So, would it be OK with you if the Ford Explorer you bought in 2006 and got 24 miles to the gallon then now got 15 miles to the gallon? She paid extra mainly for the extra mpg performance and did not get it. I'm all in favor of throwing out frivilous lawsuits like the guy and his ladder story... but this has merit.

Here's the thing... The judge should not be ruling on matters that clearly he is genuinely ignorant of.

First off you have to keep in mind that the suit was raised in small claims court not superior court in front of a jury. Second the judge has a degree in engineering as well which I would say gives him a better understanding of the details than the woman bringing the suit in the first place.

The class action lawsuit, if it ever goes to trial would be filled with experts.

Remember small claims. In the bigger scheme of things this woman was smart for doing it this way, and if others copy her example Honda is potentially in for some HUGE financial problems.

Yeah so the product better perform like a brand new one for its entire life? You are joking.

To all the haters: A product better live up to its advertised qualities - otherwise a refund is in order. There is nothing wrong exercising the legal system and challenging corporations to be honest. Would be good to see more individuals like her being motivated and taking action for wrongs in society and not tolerating being taken advantage of. Better Business Bureau should look into and incorporate this into their rating of the company.

If we can't rely on a main brand like Honda for well-made, efficient cars, what has this country got left?.. Wonder if the same model is made in Japan and what its performance is.

cars, not card

Good on the woman! Part of the problem with newer card these days, especially in US/CAN is the infinite regulations. All the extra mandatory equipment adds a lot of weight to the cars and hampers fuel economy. Back in 1985, I bought a Chevy Sprint(made by Suzuki). It was about the size of Nissan March or Ford Focus. With its 3-cylinder normally aspirated engine and reasonable driving technique I easily got over 50mpg. Hands down the best value for the money.

Ridiculous, this is so pathetic, i bought a knife once and after 2 years it wouldnt cut like it did when it was new, damn i should have sued the kife manufacturer.

This world is getting too PC and full of BS.

Sarcasm321Feb. 03, 2012 - 09:57AM JST

All the bickering in this thread is driving me crazy!

But if you where driven crazy in a 2006 Honda Civic that delivers 50 mpg, you could go further. Per the ad.

does this mean that all the companies that advertise diet, health, rejuvenating, cosmetic, hair grow, etc., etc. products are to be sued? Honda's advertising is damn honest compared with the bs these companies claim

Oops - apparently I have been out of the game too long...

The EPA has changed their method of determining economy:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml

Here's the thing... The judge should not be ruling on matters that clearly he is genuinely ignorant of.

All automotive manufacturers are required to have their vehicles tested on something called an FTP - Federal Test Procedure - in the US. This is a thorough investigation of the vehicle's emissions using a controlled environment and a test gasoline (identical fuel for all manufacturers). During the drive cycles of this test three different the mass emissions are collected and measured and from this test the vehicle mileage for published fuel economy are provided.

This drive cycle is based on a historical drive pattern called the LA-4 which was developed in 1974 by following "average" drivers around as they went to and from work, and melding this into a driving cycle that would simulate "average real-world driving".

Now, in the real world, multiple things such as driving habits affect fuel economy; but so do things like the type of fuel (oxygenated fuel tends to burn cleaner, but tends to require more fuel for the same power as non-oxygenated or reformulated gasoline), the temperatures (in cold climates, the fuel comes out of the relatively warm ground and the volume in the tank shrinks as it cools, plus the colder, denser air has more O2, requiring more fuel for a proper mixture to be formed) and the use of accessories like AC. In fact, one of a hybrid's biggest fuel saving strategies is auto stop, which kills the gasoline engine during idling. This feature is disabled if you have the AC on max, so that the AC can continue to cool the cabin.

The idea of using standard tests with standard fuels by a 3rd party (EPA) was to prevent manufactures from publishing their mileage stats. from "ideal" tests. Everyone gets checked the same - this is a scientific method, not a "generalized guideline" as the judge seems to think.

@ Yubaru, Intelligence does not prevent ignorance, but rather makes it unacceptable. If buddy is as bright as he appears to be, he should go look up the laws instead of chastising the manufacturer for following them.

ah stupid lawsuits. i hope at least the cars of the plaintiffs were all inspected. fuel mileage varies greatly on a large number of variables. The British show Top Gear did a stunt where they had a prius drive around its test track as fast as it could go. it was followed by a BMW M3 with it's big gas guzzling engine. the bmw returned better fuel economy then the prius.

What would this world be with out kind and loving lawyers?? Thank god/s this woman got some justice, but I bet this is only the TIP OF THE ICEBERG, not just Honda, but all of the car companies must have lots of things to hide from us!!

"Peters, a former lawyer, said she is renewing her legal license after a 10-year lapse so she can represent other Honda owners who have the same problems she did."

Peters was never a "former lawyer". She is, more accurately, a qualified "lawyer" who chose to claim "inactive" status with the California Bar Association for some period of years. Describing someone as a "former lawyer" is like describing someone with an M.D. degree who has passed Medical Board Examinations as a "former doctor" if they don't currently see patients or work in a laboratory. Anyone who has ever qualified professionally as a licensed attorney or M.D. is still a lawyer or doctor regardless of what activity they may be engaged in at present.

Sure but the judge is dumb. If you say that, all manufacturer has the same problem.

Maybe they all do, and I highly doubt that the judge is dumb, in fact I know from reading his bio that he is a very intelligent man having a degree in engineering too!

@NetNinja

They are building the cars for the Japanese market and at the same time trying to pass them off on Americans

My impression is the Americans were doing this and finally caught on after Japanese manufacturers sold cars that were much better suited for sale around the world than the humungous gas guzzlers the Americans tried to sell. If you are referring that Japanese cars are too small for a large percentage of Americans who are obese, your statement would make sense though.

She's trying to live her life and maintain a stable budget for her household.

She gave up law. So was hubby making that much money that her salary as a lawyer was insignificant?

Some guy here in Tokyo who designed the vehicle is filthy rich, he's a swindler and a cheat. Why stick with the facts when you can make up your own?

Honestly, you sound like a lobbyist who is about 20 years behind the times...

/Not anti-American //Not anti-Japanese either ///Why yes, I do like Fark. Thanks for asking

3 cheers to the winner, clearly an appropriate judgement!!

I dont want to slag Honda here, its ALL car manufacturers who have lied or misleading ads etc that are a real problem, hopefully it gets dealt with as it shud!

Here in Japan it always ticks me off when shopping for a new fridge or AC, washer etc, the bloodly lies about energy savings are obscene & the pwers that be let them get away with it.

I also hate frivolous lawsuits but CLEARLY this case isnt one of those, Honda shud get HAMMERED if they appeal & I thought the court this was being heard in the judgement was final, no appeals, did they use a higher court than planned, anyway 2 cheers for a deserved WIN!!

Well, I have a 1999 Honda hybrid and it doesn't get what I expect from it. The car has had to change the main batteries twice within 100,000 km... but I have bitten the bullet and paid. I love the car and I think Honda are great. I undertstand that the EPA is always an exaggeration. This woman irritates the hell out of me. I bet she would have found something to complain about whatever make of car she was driving.

30 miles per gallon sucks. I get unlimited to the gallon. I do not own a car. Do not need one in this country.

@sfjp330: Show me any case of a auto manufacturer that has greatly exagerated mileage claims since 2006? I think Tesla is one that I've read of... but they're not a mainstream company. Like I said, before 2006... yes, they all were guilty!

I'm talking about any manufacturer since 2006 when the standards were changed. I'm not pointing at Honda... you show me other examples of manufactures that do not live up to their estimates since 2006.

WurthingtonFeb. 03, 2012 - 10:47AM JST. Over 20% below would be something to complain about. Just my opinion...

Then your talking about every manufacturer? Why point the finger at Honda only?

In 2006 the EPA changed its MPG calculation to reflect much more accurate real life numbers. Yes, before 2006 the EPA numbers were a farce! This woman has a 2006 model car. Try and find any car sold in the USA since 2006 that does not come within 20% of EPA MPG estimates. I consider within 20% to be a reasonable number. Over 20% below would be something to complain about. Just my opinion...

Americans will really sue over anything...what happened to my country?

WurthingtonFeb. 03, 2012 - 10:36AM JST. The woman said she was getting 30 mpg.... It could be that the batteries become less efficient over time. Now if they quickly become less efficient that is a problem. Again... you're buying a Hybrid and paying up for fuel efficiency. This is a case whereby the manufacturer is claiming around 50 mpg but the woman only got 30 mpg.

If you look from the EPA, this was from 2006 rating. She said she was getting 40-42 mpg when it was new. Now, the 30mpg could be the result of battery becoming old and not fully charged so the sensor kicks in to start the engine. If you only get 30mpg, you should change the battery. This can happen to any hybrid cars.

The woman said she was getting 30 mpg.... It could be that the batteries become less efficient over time. Now if they quickly become less efficient that is a problem. Again... you're buying a Hybrid and paying up for fuel efficiency. This is a case whereby the manufacturer is claiming around 50 mpg but the woman only got 30 mpg. A 40% difference. Also remember that in 2006 the EPA changed the measurement standards to more accurately reflect real gas mileage. And this is a 2006 model. Before 2006... yeah.. many companies were way off their claims but since then is a different story.

WurthingtonFeb. 03, 2012 - 10:16AM JST. Clearly shows Honda claiming 49 mpg city and 51 mpg highway.

Are you are disputing U.S. goverment EPA rating because you read in Motor Trend magazine? So they were 10 percent off on your magazine test. Does this make it a crime because all other manufacturers, including Ford and GM does this? Show me a example of GM and Ford products that are accurate in EPA milage. Honda Civic Hybrid are within the range of EPA that was promised. This is nothing but a bogus lawsuit.

Hide SuzukiFEB. 03, 2012 - 08:43AM JST @NetNinja

Do you always have to turn everything, I mean everything into Japan vs America ?

There is no mention of Japan vs America here. Her name is Heather Peters. BTW Mr. Suzuki...GM is number one again ;-) Getting good gas mileage is important. We need to have better vehicles that serve the people. Now what we can't abide by is Japanese Automakers telling us lies about the mileage and safety standards of Japanese vehicles.

If you can't build a car that does what it says it can do and protect the passengers well then your auto industry shouldn't be in America. I'm not trying to make this into a Japan versus America thing. It is what it is. I've been in all sorts of cars. I've been to the Tokyo Motor Shows and Tokyo Auto Salons. Japanese automakers aren't making cars for international consumers. They are building the cars for the Japanese market and at the same time trying to pass them off on Americans.

This woman, Heather Peters, did the right thing. Honda told her the car would do something and that vehicle did not perform as mentioned in the brochure. I'm sorry Hide, but it's not okay to lie and take the woman's money. She's trying to live her life and maintain a stable budget for her household. Some guy here in Tokyo who designed the vehicle is filthy rich, he's a swindler and a cheat.

I hope Americans who have the same situation follow suit. In America, we HOLD companies responsible for their products and services. If you don't mind being cheated and told Shoganai that's your culture. We can't be appeased with stalling and lamo excuses. It's unbelievable what society here is willing to accept. I wish I could tell you "The Cold Taco Meat" story but it would be too long and deemed off topic even though it's the perfect analogy here.

In conclusion, you must be mindful of ANY automaker who makes elaborate promises about the vehicles performance. Japanese cars do NOT come with flux capacitors that will help you save money and time.

Go see for yourself http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/12/29/exp-am-peters-honda.cnn?iref=allsearch

Lose about 50lbs, turn off your air conditioner, and get out of LA. There is your 50mpg you were seeking for.

sometimes, lawsuits are NOT meant to earn the plaintiff a huge amount of money. sometimes, they are meant to change harmful or deceptive business practices. this case will benefit other consumers who might choose a prius instead for better gas mileage. i see nothing wrong with what she did.

btw, she was a lawyer and she knows what she is doing.

@sfjp330: Link to 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid versus the 2005 Toyota Prius. Clearly shows Honda claiming 49 mpg city and 51 mpg highway.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_0604_hybrid_sedan_comparison/viewall.html

Not sure if this has any relevance here but I know the EPA (2-3 years ago?) told auto makers to change the testing methodology for gas mileage because it didn't reflect real world driving.

Wurthington:

2006 Honda Civic Hybid, combine 42 mpg. Source: Y.S. Goverment: Department of Energy

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/22643.shtml

@sfjp330: Here is a picture of the 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid EPA Sticker.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=2006+honda+civic+hybrid+epa+sticker&hl=en&gbv=2&biw=1056&bih=955&tbm=isch&tbnid=jFltN-Crezl7_M:&imgrefurl=http://guicide.com/cars/2006civic/&docid=yKB1hLdKFosd5M&imgurl=http://guicide.com/cars/2006civic/sticker.jpg&w=1581&h=954&ei=1zIrT6-WJYqJmQWb1s31Dw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=724&vpy=281&dur=165&hovh=174&hovw=289&tx=193&ty=96&sig=113493990272442988197&page=4&tbnh=124&tbnw=205&start=73&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:73

Toyota recall (2008), Yaskawa Electric, denso, Furukawa Electric, mazda recall (january 2012) and now honda.

GM Volt had its sales suspended by suspected of fire in your batteries but as magic trick NHTSA released its sales immediately. Senior leaders NHTSA contaminated by this feeling of xenophobia against Japanese companies.

I think japanese government should sell part of its U.S. gdovernment bonds and spend money in rebuild of the Tohoku region.

All the bickering in this thread is driving me crazy!

WurthingtonFeb. 03, 2012 - 09:46AM JST. She paid an extra $5,000 for a hybrid that would get around 50 mpg. She did not get near that number.

Show me a link that states Honda Hybrid gets around 50mpg. The EPA shows 40/43.

You would think a huge MNC like Honda would know far better about being caught up in a lawsuit about misleading adverts.

The sticker price for a Honda Civic Hybrid in 2006 was around $22,000 depending on extras. The Sticker for a Honda Civic non Hybrid in 2006 was around $17,000. She paid an extra $5,000 for a hybrid that would get around 50 mpg. She did not get near that number. Like I said earlier. My 2006 Prius got over 50 mpg and it reported 52 mpg on the EPA sticker. If the other 200,000 Honda Civic Hybrid owners are reporting similar mileage to her.. Honda could have problems.

YubaruFeb. 03, 2012 - 09:34AM JST @330....don't you think that Honda brought those issues up during the lawsuit? And yet they still lost..

Sure but the judge is dumb. If you say that, all manufacturer has the same problem. Example: Let's say you own a Ford Expedition 2wd, with 4.6 engine, a 3.31 rear gear ratio. The factory EPA is 16 city and 21 freeway. On the real world, you get around13 in the city and 16 in freeways. This is 20-25 percent less than what was advertised by Ford. Don't you think this is a false advertising by Ford? Do you think there should be a class action lawsuit against Ford since your getting 25 percent less in the freeways as advertised? This is same as Honda gas milage results in which she expected 50+ but got only 40mpg.

@330....don't you think that Honda brought those issues up during the lawsuit? And yet they still lost.

YubaruFeb. 03, 2012 - 09:17AM JST it isn't a stupid lawsuit as I see it. Manufacturer's have a responsibility to accurately advertise their products and consumers have a right to expect that the product will function at least as well as advertised. How many times have people purchased things and only found out afterwards that it didnt live up to their expectations or what the advertising said it could do. Honda better start thinking about giving more cash to their customers and not the lawyers. Otherwise it is fraud.

This is a dumb lawsuit by a dumb women and a dumb judge. If this ruling stands, then every manufacturer is in for a lawsuit. The real world gas milage is usually 20-25 less than the actual EPA rating. Here's why: the cars and trucks subjected to fuel economy testing are "driven" without a full complement of passengers, cargo, and options aboard, all else being equal, the heavier a vehicle is, the more fuel an engine will need to burn in order to reach and maintain a set speed. Similarly, the vehicles are tested without the air conditioning and other electrical accessories in use, which also tends to put a greater load on the engine, and thus impacts the vehicle's fuel economy.

Other factors like trip length, traffic conditions, terrain, temperature, and the weather all affect your mileage. Likewise, installing exterior accessories like roof racks and cargo carriers will hamper a vehicle's aerodynamics will take their toll at the pump. The more aerodynamic "drag" that's placed on a vehicle, the more energy it takes to run it, especially at highway speeds. Lead-footed acceleration, heavy braking, high-speed driving, excessive idling, towing, and engaging four-wheel drive will also drain your vehicle's gas tank at a higher than average rate. The jack-rabbit starts and sudden stops alone reduce a car or truck's fuel economy by as much as 33 percent at highway speeds and five percent in the city.

I bought a Toyota Prius in 2006 and it did as reported. I got over 50 mpg on both highway and in town. Fantastic car! If it were to only have gotten 35 to 40 mpg I would have been very dissapointed. I don't blame this woman for what she did. The woman paid for a car that would get 50 mpg... not a car that got 35 mpg.

Too bad for Japanese companies it's too expensive to buy our legal system. You can't cover the small claims courts completely.

But you can turn it into entertainment like Judge Judy,People's Court, Hatchett..

It isn't a stupid lawsuit as I see it. Manufacturer's have a responsibility to accurately advertise their products and consumers have a right to expect that the product will function at least as well as advertised.

How many times have people purchased things and only found out afterwards that it didnt live up to their expectations or what the advertising said it could do.

Honda better start thinking about giving more cash to their customers and not the lawyers.

Otherwise it is fraud.

It was a stupid lawsuit, yes. But at least she wasn't given an ungodly amount of money - effectively making her a millionaire - for doing absolutely nothing but bitching.

@Hide

Some people are always looking for easy money instead of working.

This woman got less than $10,000. For that amount I don't think she can give up working for a living.

@Serrano

This reminds me of that woman who sued McD's when she spilled hot coffee on herself in the car.

Very little to compare. The McDonalds case was not a matter of deceptive advertising. Don't paint all these people with the same brush.

@NetNinja

Do you always have to turn everything, I mean everything into Japan vs America ? EPA mileage is ALWAYS higher than what you get in real life, this is true for ANY and ALL vehicles. I would love to hear what you say when GM or Ford get sued for the same thing. Some people are always looking for easy money instead of working.

These people produce absolutely nothing in the world, living off of other people like parasites

This reminds me of that woman who sued McD's when she spilled hot coffee on herself in the car.

So the company exaggerated the quality of its product. No big news there.

I get the impression that there are a lot of people in America who wake up each morning thinking "Who can I sue today?"

Stop being so damn petty and get on with your lives.

Another stupid lawsuit. So the car didn't live up to it's hype - so what? Buy a Mercedes next time.

Congratulations!! My hat is off to her. We are all going to say this and that. Some of us will support her, some of us will ride against her. This is exactly what Americans are made of. It's you and only you sometimes.

The woman buys this car. It's not what it claims to be. She knows this and goes after the company. Japanese corporations are not interested in fair settlements. A good lawyer once told me, you have to go for 200% in order to get something close to a fair judgement or settlement. We just don't fear Japanese companies or any company. David and Goliath is a recipe for "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" You have to take the fight to them.

What surprises me isn't the fact that Honda had a problem with it's Hybrid Car. It's technology. It's going to have bugs. No, what really surprises me is that some of you think a Japanese company didn't lie. After all we've been through you still don't think that they would try to slip a few lemons out there.

Too bad for Japanese companies it's too expensive to buy our legal system. You can't cover the small claims courts completely.

This is ridiculous. Here goes the slippery slope

“save plenty of money on fuel with up to 50 mpg during city driving.”

Sounds like a bold-faced lie to me. 50 mpg on the test track I could believe.

But was it Honda or the salesmen who lied?