3 firemen arrested for alleged gang rape of woman

Disillusioned

I find it hard to believe that any woman would agree to have sex with three men one after the other.

yourock

As for waiting five days to report it, shame is a big factor, I suggest. In any society, it is very difficult for rape victims to go to the police.

She waited 5 days to report the 'rape', umm, what rape? Between August 6-11, she realized the guys didn't want to see her again, and that was that. "Rape!"

Come on you guys. This is a 20 year old girl. Not ruling out that she was mischievous. But then it could very well have been rape.Well, a woman could not have agreed with 3 men to have sex at the same time within an hour. It could have taken 5 days for the girl to analyse how she got deceived.

Ah yes. The victim was asking for it. Women have it easy. The rapist, er, man never assaults. She waited too long to report it. She was wearing a short skirt. She was out of her home at 3 AM - she deserved what she got. Where were her parents? She was probably drunk - rape is always the result and excusable.

Of course some rape victims curl up in bed for a week or longer and take showers every hour to cleanse the filth of the rapist off of them but, hey, we know better than that. I know a man who was raped and reported it to his military unit a week later - after he stopped bleeding. Got the same response as the previous posters.

The act of rape is one most heinous. I can understand why it might take someone time to go and report it as the stigmas will pour down once it gets out in the open. In Japan, forced sex (rape) is a daily occurrence and normally the victim is too afraid to report it due to social/family/friend recriminations.

In general the treatment of rape victims in Japan is deplorable; the police, courts, press and public are in general very unsympathetic and all have the attitude of "she must have been asking for it".

I'm not female, and have never been raped, but have one very close friend who was, the act itself was humiliating enough, but the additional suffering she went through trying to get justice here in Japan was insufferable and perhaps more painful than the crime itself.

I am sure all these guys are pillars of the community. You think these three didn't have anything to drink before 2:00 am? All drunk guys think the sex was consentual........because they are too drunk to know when a girl is saying "NO".

"Too easy for a woman to cry 'rape'"

Ah, I love the smell of victim blaming in the morning. It's the kind of comments here that are the reason women wait so long or are afraid they won't be believed. This is why so many rape victims don't bother reporting it. Let them continue their investigation and find out before assuming the woman is LYING just to get back at the poor men.

We didnt start the fire, the women is a liar. We just went to stop the fire...... Gee

"to believe these guys did work her over, "

Pretty rough language dis.

I am sure with anything..there is error on all sides..sorry for the girl if it happened.

I don't doubt the victim.

i'm on the girl's side and believe that she got raped. it's not uncommon for rape victims to report to the police a while after the incident occurred.

He had something to discuss? Ever thought to pick up the phone? Or couldn`t it wait till morning?

Yes, it is very easy for women to cry rape, and those that do are as disgusting in my opinion as the perpetrators themselves, because they make it hard for genuine victims to come forward, and therefore perpetuate the problem.

But make no mistake - it is incredibly difficult for genuine victims to come forwards too, especially in this culture and society, but in fact in any society. Whether this woman is genuine or not is hard to say, but nobody "asks" for this to happen to them. The psychological damage it causes is as debilitating, often more so, than the physical damage.

If she is genuine, then I applaud her bravery at standing up to this.

more products made in China. and 36 dollar Jordans doesn't seem too tempting. Sorry.

Did they wear protection? Was she awake when it happened? Did they take pictures and post it?

@farmboy - they didn`t. It was in one of the mens apartments. He said he needed to talk to her (they were acquainted) and asked her to come to his apartment.

I don't believe her story at all. I think she like one of the guys and he coerced her (via words) to be with his friends. Then, after, he dumped her. She got pissed. For me, the 5 days that passed is the key.

This same thing happened to guys I know. Except she did not claim rape (yet). A girl had a twosome and then was shocked that one guy did not want to be her boyfriend. She stalked him and caused a big stir.

@dano2002:

one of the guys and he coerced her (via words)

That's rape dude!

It's interesting--estimates for false accusations of rape are no different than those for false accusations of other crimes. And yet, if a woman accuses a man of rape, suddenly she's a big ol' liar. I wonder why that is ...

A huge number of rapes go unreported. Huge. And this is why. Because when you report it, everyone will say you were a slut, you were asking for it, and it's your fault. To make matters worse, a large percentage of rapes are committed by acquaintances, friends, and family members. Very few are committed by strangers. And for some reason we're more "fine" with stranger rape than any other kind. But if it was a boyfriend? Regret. Father? Liar. Friend? Revenge.

Consider if it were your sister or friend or daughter. Would you want her to feel safe and comfortable reporting her assault? Then don't perpetuate the myth that women always lie about rape. Because every time you do, women get the message that they won't be believed because they drank a little or it was late or they went to the guy's house or any other reason women are commonly called liars.

Excellent comment, Monkeyz. I would never say that no one ever lies about being assaulted, but as soon as something like this happens, everyone AUTOMATICALLY assumes she must be making it up to be spiteful or something ridiculous. There's something seriously wrong with that.

"How did 3 firemen get into a woman's apartment at 2 a.m. unless they were invited?" P

One assumes that a fireman's axe can come in handy.

"Consider if it were your sister or friend or daughter. Would you want her to feel safe and comfortable reporting her assault? Then don't perpetuate the myth that women always lie about rape."

This is an excellent razor for ANY issue related to sex and women being victimized. Many men treat women as "other", so misogyny seems to have no consequences or harm at all. Everyone should regard issues in this way.

Of course it is really hard to tell what happened here, but you know that the guys could have rehearsed whatever story they would want to tell and she is probably a scared young woman. I would hope that society would go to greater lengths to protect her. These guys can protect themselves.

How did 3 firemen get into a woman's apartment at 2 a.m. unless they were invited?

One assumes that a fireman's axe can come in handy.

What?? I guess some people aren't really reading the article.. SHE WENT OVER TO one of the men's apartment. One of the men told the woman he had something to discuss so she went over (she probably didn't know there were 2 other men, though).

I can sort of piece this "puzzle" together with the bits of information given. I might be mistaken but it appears to me that this woman liked the man Katakura-san as she was willing to visit his apartment at 2am in the morning.

I doubt that she was thinking that he was going to show off his butterfly collection.

However, she probably didn't realize that there were going to be two other men there and I also think that she did not want to have a foursome with them either.

I can also imagine that the men probably started getting fresh and she didn't have the experience/resolve or courage to fend them off properly. I can easily imagine that her saying "NO" went unheard. Even if she physically pushed them away it would be easy for 3 men to have their way with her. That said, it would be considered rape if she just said "NO" and refused to co-operate. Perhaps in the men's mind they didn't use force if she didn't physically fight back (strongly).

One point in the above story that others seemed to have missed was that 2 out of the 3 men denied the charges. That means that the 3rd man didn't deny the charges (assuming he was questioned). That's kind of an important point, don't you think?

jonobugs,

I think that's about as close to the truth as anyone's come so far

“Tough call this one. While it is possible to believe these guys did work her over, it is just as possible she agreed to it and then woke up in the morning full of regret. Sorry ladies, but it is just too easy for a woman to cry 'rape'.”

What? Do you seriously expect anyone to believe your rationale placing the likelihood of a 20-year-old woman being gang raped by three men on equally footing with the possibility that she sought out sex with three men simultaneously? Good luck with that.

Other than the obvious elephant in the room, namely that the scenarios depicted in adult videos aren’t real - - a point that has conspicuously escaped the attention of more one poster on this thread - - there is no way on earth a woman seeking out a foursome is in any way as common as a woman being gang raped.

I don’t know who you associate with, but I can assure you they aren’t the norm.

Whether or not this woman was raped with have to be determined based on the evidence, but to practically dismiss her claims outright based on what quite honestly is a very warped perception of the world is indefensible.

@techall one of the guys and he coerced her (via words) That's rape dude!

If it is, then there isn't a man not guilty anywhere...........

@jonobugs at 02:12 PM JST - 21st September

I doubt that she was thinking that he was going to show off his butterfly collection.

So Minoru Katakura has a butterfly collection? I did not realize it when I read this article. But I would definitely go see his butterfly collection, it is rare for people to have then these days. Not sure if I would want to see his other 'collections', especially at 2am.

This woman's story has a problem in that it took her 5 days to report this 'rape' to police. The mens' story has a problem in that 2 of the 3 say the sex was consensual. What does the third guy say? This type of thing is very messy for police to investigate.

It is interesting to see the word ALLEGED used in this article.

Coerce: to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without regard for individual desire or volition: And you think everybody does this!!!

That's rape dude!

If it is, then there isn't a man not guilty anywhere...........

There are lots of men who are not guilty. The majority. Maybe your midnight promises come in the form of coercion, but others have more -style? - self-respect? - technique?

Or maybe you just don't understand the meaning of the word 'coerce'.

Having watched J-porn, It can be either way. Maybe, just maybe the way she tried to resist could also have sent a signal to the guys that made them think 'all systems are go' and proceeded with the orgy. I truly doubt it if they could have proceeded had she put up a firm resistance. on the otherside, I strongly feel alcohol was the main factor. It could have been fun,fun and fun till later when guilt set in.

islandview,

There is nothing mysterious or suggestive about the use of the word "alleged" in the article. It's standard practice to used the word in any sort of crime report in which a conviction has not yet been reached, based on the principle of "innocent until proven guilty."

Since this alleged crime has not yet made it to a courtroom, it remains simply an accusation that police investigators most prove or disprove.

I truly doubt it if they could have proceeded had she put up a firm resistance

Have you ever seen firemen training outside their fire stations? These are very strong men. I doubt she could have stopped even one of them, but THREE. Some of you people are just so delusional!

@LFRAgain at 02:55 PM JST - 21st September

I know what alleged means. I watch "Law and Order".

The word 'alleged' is not consistently used when describing crimes in Japan. Many times the accused are considered guilty by the police, press and politicians even before the investigation is completed. But in this case, it is reported as ALLEGED. Yes, the word should be used as standard practice, but it is not, even in Japan.

I did not say the word 'alleged' used in this article is "mysterious or suggestive", but just.... interesting.

kinda pathetic to see the first two posters here suddenly disappear after a hoped-for pack mentality of rape denyers didnt materialize.

From the information given in the article, it sounds like both stories are true -- originally consentual hanky-panky, it turned into rape when the buddies joined in.

They all deserve to be thrown into prison and be fined at least 10 million yen.

islandview: "Yes, the word should be used as standard practice, but it is not, even in Japan."

You are 100% wrong, but perhaps that says something about you that in a case involving rape you find it 'interesting'. The Japanese media ALWAYS uses alleged until a guilty verdict is handed down, no exceptions. They even use alleged when a person pleads guilty. So, not sure why you said what you said, but it's wrong. Perhaps you can give us some direct examples when they don't use 'alleged' or another word meaning the same thing?

Here's what I reckon happened. The young lady in question went to see the man 'she had acquaintance with', and perhaps was interested in. She walked in, saw the two buddies the guy failed to mentioned, and went in fearful of what was going to happen. That she went in, and said acquaintance got his two buddies in on the action, does not in ANY way merit 'consent'. What was this woman going to do? Scream aloud only to have the Japanese neighbours ignore it? fight back only to be beaten up AND be accused of 'deserving it' by scum bags later anyway? As it is I think there are a bunch of scumbags chuckling about her 'promiscuity' and what not. Is it REALLY any surprise it took her a few days to muster up the courage to go to the police?

Did I miss the part where it says her acquaintance called her to the apt or that she went not knowing there were 2 other guys there? Could it be that they all went out drinking, came back to sleep it off, and she woke up with the 3 on her...?

jonobugs: doesn't say she went to the apt at 2AM, just that she was raped between 2-3AM.

"There are lots of men who are not guilty. The majority. Maybe your midnight promises come in the form of coercion, but others have more -style? - self-respect? - technique? "

Thanks Cleo for sticking up for us men.

There are men who believe that consensual sex is impossible for everyone because it is impossible for themselves. They then reinforce that by consuming media that portray women as they would like them to be, which is usually vulnerable and victimized.

These are really good posts. I feel certain that something is being left out, as usual, but it probably happened pretty well as Smith has pieced it together. I said on a thread a couple of weeks ago that women should just avoid what used to be called "compromising situations" such as going to a man's apartment, etc. It used to be that women would do that to protect their reputation. In Japan in 2010 it appears to be necessary just to maintain personal safety.

Extreme? No. I would advise any young woman to avoid being alone with a man unless he is pretty well known. The stakes are high and there are a lot of creeps. Unfortunately, once something happens, there is not a lot of reoourse.

smartacus - I find it hard to believe that any woman would agree to have sex with three men one after the other.

I guess you've never been to a rugby grand final after-party.

Moderator: Please refrain from posting rubbish like this.

@smithinjapan

I did not say that the rape was interesting, but the use of a particular word was interesting. The JT moderator edited my comment and left that one line in there out of context. And then you misread the comment; I was referring to the word alleged and not rape.

Moderator: No more on this point please.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Certainly an odd story. If she was, good for her coming forward and dealing with all the BS the Japanese cops have made her go through. If she is lying, shame on her for such behaviour. There certainly have been many cases of cry wolf with rape and I hope this isn't one of them - or perhaps I hope it is so the women doesn't have to deal with the issues a rape survivor has to deal with. Though if it is a hoax, the men will have to deal with the label for years to come.

What ever happened to innocent until prove guilty??

I can tell you right now that they are guilty of being stupid. You don't just have a foursome one fine day with a young woman only one other guy can call an "acquainance" and expect nothing to happen. If they go down for this, I have no pity even if they are innocent. They need to learn three letters, C, Y, and A.

Even just a voice recording of the event could have saved them. All four being seen in public would have helped. All four going to a love hotel would have helped. The other two knowing her previously would have helped. A lot of things would have helped.

But no, it looks like, at best, they jumped into a foursome headfirst without looking. They earned their fate by being stupid.

Lots of people find it easier to pick up at a bar when drunk instead of having formal interviews with people. This could be one of those times.

MistWizard: How did you manage to change an alleged gang rape into a foursome? One of the guys has even admitted that the sex wasn't consensual.

Although there are some false accusations of rape, most women who say they were raped are telling the truth. And honestly I can't imagine too many 20 year-old girls that would say 'Sure!' to an offer of having sex with one guy she knew and 2 that she didn't, all of whom are a lot older than her.

alladin - They all deserve to be thrown into prison and be fined at least 10 million yen.

And, there it is folks. The trial by media.

dolphingirl-

I can't imagine too many 20 year-old girls that would say 'Sure!' to an offer of having sex with one guy she knew and 2 that she didn't, all of whom are a lot older than her.

this woman is NOT 20 yaers old, she is in her 20s (JT has translated wrong again.. ALL the Japanese news reported that she is in her 20s, not 20 years old).. she could be 29 years old, in that case, she isn't much younger than any of those 3 men. They are about the same age.

That said, I am not convinced that she just made up the whole story.. I think it was her mistake to go over to one of the guys apartment that late at night by herself, but maybe she liked him and she was hoping something would happen WITH HIM, (not other men).. Most likely she didn't know there were two other men there..

fishy: I stand corrected. Still you would have to be pretty bold, pretty stupid or pretty drunk to have consensual sex with 3 guys and you only know one of thme.

I'm not excusing or condoning rape as a means out of the recession, but who in their right mind would go to a man's apt, 1, and actually go into the door, seeing 3 men in some cramped 1-2-3 dk. Give me a breeeeeeaaaaaaaaaak!

dolphin-

Still you would have to be pretty bold, pretty stupid or pretty drunk to have consensual sex with 3 guys and you only know one of thme

Agree, and that's why I said that I am not convinced that she made up the whole story and I think she didn't know there were two other men there..

Maybe the guy she knew (the guy who invited her) knew she liked him and he used her..

In any ways, this is just disgusting..

who in their right mind would go to a man's apt, 1, and actually go into the door, seeing 3 men in some cramped 1-2-3 dk

Where does it say she knew the other men were there? Where does it say they didn't actually turn up after she arrived?

it's best to really check her too if she's really telling the truth. it's hard to put somebody in jail and mark the rest of their lives as criminals. can't she even scream? what i know is that most japanese women makes loud noises like "eeeh?" in casual conversations. this is rape, i bet any women could cry more. guys should be careful of inviting girls to their place since some girls might accuse them of rape....vice versa, there is a lesson here.....

Wikipedia says: Due to the lack of a jury system, the Japanese justice system (along with all other civil law jurisdictions) is said to be very bureaucratic and predictable. Because judges work under a fairly uniform system of evidence and procedure, which is indirectly supervised by (the) Ministry of Justice, the district prosecutor knows exactly the types of evidence which are needed to secure a conviction from a judge. Consequently, failing to secure a conviction would be seen as serious failure in his judgment for pressing charges in the first place and even a single failure would have a serious negative impact on the career of a prosecutor. One of the consequences of this arrangement is that prosecutors rarely press charges involving the rape or assault of an acquaintance.

dolphingirl said: How did you manage to change an alleged gang rape into a foursome? One of the guys has even admitted that the sex wasn't consensual.

The article says the three men claim it was consensual. So I said, AT BEST, it was a sudden foursome. That means, at worst, it was rape. My point was, even if it was not rape, they are still guilty of being stupid.

But yeah, if you need it smack over the head clear, odds are they are lying like rugs. They still deserve a trial, but even if innocent, it will be hard to determine either way. AT BEST, they are idiots. AT WORST, scum rapists AND idiots because they could have hired a pro. Either way, I won't complain if they get the book thrown at them.

"gang rape"

What the hell is wrong with some guys?

"gang rape"

What the hell is wrong with some guys? I'm with ya on that one Sarge......my personal thoughts are a few too many rape themed movies? Any way you slice it rape is a dirty low down act.

not alot of details in the story but with the situation going from one guy asking her over early in the morning to discuss something to having supposed consensual sex with two guys, it doesnt add up at all.hard to imagine how it ended so badly. did they lure her to the appartment with one thing in mind?

Sorry ladies, but it is just too easy for a woman to cry 'rape'

I'm ashamed to be a man when other men say things like this.

Wow. Lots of people assuming things when nothing has been said. I would assume at least one guy knew her since he invited her over.

As for the comments of her being "drunk", "stupid"... people certainly have different notions of what they want when it comes to having a 'good" time. Japanese porn certainly seems to have a lot of female who take on a few guys at once - for whatever reason but I assume money being the most important. Not unheard of - might want to look at some of the football stories in the UK, rugby girls in NZ and puck girls in Canada for threesomes/foursomes...

I do recall one Japanese women claiming rape in Hiroshima after a "foursome" with a bunch of American GIs. In the end, they were all found innocent because she couldn't keep her story straight. Why not wait until more details come out before a) claiming these guys are rapists and b) calling her a silly drunk stupid girl.

Regardless of the outcome, lives will be ruined because of this.

MoBass4u said: my personal thoughts are a few too many rape themed movies?

Before movies, there was no rape! (sigh).

Any way you slice it rape is a dirty low down act.

Its not that simple, especially as rape is an ever expanding term these days. This case does sound low though.

These idiot firemen are being payed a lot of money, to fight fires etc...and are their free time they are raping young girls?? This makes me sick!!

If she would have resisted it may have cost her life. The "experts" say it is best not to resist. I would sure like to meet these men on a dark street. I guarantee they would not survive.

My deepest sympathy to the victum and hopefully she will find a caring rape professional to help with the mental and physical anguish.

MistWizard: True that! And though it may be an ever expanding term I'm stickin' to the tried and true term that they may have taken by force what was not theirs to take. Yes, this is the bottom of the barrel.

"MoBass4u said: my personal thoughts are a few too many rape themed movies?

Before movies, there was no rape! (sigh)."

And there was smoking before mass produced filter-tipped cigarettes. But smoking as a social phenomenon really took off after that. Don't oversimplify the poster's message just to make it easier to attack it.

For my part, I am trying to think of a mainstream movie where a nice girl decides to have sex with three guys at once. Or any girl for that matter. There aren't any. I know that this 4p scene is recreation to some people, but this kind of thing is always portrayed misogynistically.

I am not going to blame anything specifically on movies, but one thing that bothers me about a lot of movies is the way they portray women being abused in all kinds of situations. A lot of guys get off on that and imitate that.

So along comes this situation and guys will think that this "woman wanting to do it with three guys for fun" is something that happens and kind of shrug. It doesn't happen. It only happens in sick movies. You remarked, I think, that they should have hired a professional, basically a rape for hire. I have got a better idea. How about treating women as women and not targets or service people?

So Sarge is right. What the hell is wrong with some guys? I can't figure it out either. But it IS the guys, I think. Misogyny in culture has been around a lot longer than in movies, so I will extend MoBass4U's argument and double down. Why do humans do this? I don't think mammals do this. If they do, they don't do it out of violent rage. So there is nothing natural or Darwinian about it. Gang rape is an infectious disease.

Regarding this particular case, I will say again that the girl needs to be protected by society. The guys can corroborate if they are innocent. Maybe they are, but the police say they aren't.

"especially as rape is an ever expanding term these days."

Well, there is some food for thought. Why wouldn't it be, though? Rights, contracts, feminism, power relationships, child support, family and abuse issues ... all of those things are becoming more complicated. Rape in particular and sex in general are right at the nexus of all of that. I know you are nostalgic, but your ownership of what is in your pants really does stop when you unzip. There is no reason that people should not be responsible for what their genitalia do if they must be responsible for what their fists do.

Does the place where the alleged rape occured matter? For example, if a man and a woman enter a love hotel together, and the woman later claims she was raped, does that location matter?

In a liberal mind, the answer (I assume) is no. She could have changed at any point up to the act. A he-said she-said situation would then have to be resolved through physical evidence. Police and prosecution in this mindset would likely see where the evidence leads and make judgments from there.

But in a conservative mind, location does seem to matter. The location may imply intent or even consent, and the police or prosecution would most likely not put much effort into their investigation.

Without getting into a fundamentalist mindset, where do you think most Japanese police and prosecutors are? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way; no need to answer.)

His apartment. She came over. After midnight. Alcohol was consumed, wasn't it? Boys will be boys. Young people sure are adventurous these days, aren't they? End of investigation. Stop wasting our time and don't let us catch you here again.

Sad for this liberal mind to say, but if these men did rape her, they will get a minimum of legal punishment. They will, however, receive social punishment in the form of dismissal for betraying the public trust (which is largely why this is news). But even if they are not convicted, they will still most likely receive some form of punishment, e.g. suspension, for letting a private matter become public and damaging the social fabric.

But, then again, what do I know? I'm just an Old World monkey with a pretty tail.

Sorry. The above should read, "She could have changed her mind at any point..."

They said, she said. It's all gonna boil down to who do you believe most and that's going to depend on the reputations of all involved. One woman having consensual sex with 3 men and then raising a stink by going public is odd, not proof, but unusual in itself. I also find it strange that he requested her to come to his apartment in order to discuss something, not to engage in sex with multiple partners. Anyway, the reputations of the 3 firemen and the single woman should be carefully investigated.

mrhog1234 at 11:54 PM JST - 21st September If she would have resisted it may have cost her life. The "experts" say it is best not to resist.

This don't make sense. Reason as for it to be rape in legal terms she will have to fight/resist ALL the way.

If she stops resisting it becomes consentual sex.

I like how people will say let's not jump to conclusions and then declare the men innocent while making light of rape. Please choose one or the other.

zenny11, good point!

What gets me is that it supposively happened on 6 Aug but she reported it on 11 Aug. Enough time to get tired of the snickering at the station, and "reclaim" her innocence. That is what a good defense lawyer would accuse her of doing.

Agree with Alphawolf.

ONE of the big reasons why many women choose not to report rape is because MOST of the time it is Date Rape by a friend, family, co-worker, etc.

Also in court she will be quizzed about her sexual history, previous, lovers, etc. Her friends will be called in to give Testimony, often a raped woman will soon after contact a friend, etc.

Also the Police have a Rape-kit(test and procedures) this becomes less reliable as time increases between rape and the test being done.

I short a woman has to prove in court that she was raped and that is tough as it usually is a "He said, She said" scenario.

I short = In short.

You wait five days? This sounds like it was not a rape but consensual. If it was infact a rape, she should've gone to doctor right away for gathing of evidence. You don't wait five days and lose all the evidence. This will not stand up in court.

You wait five days? This sounds like it was not a rape but consensual. If it was infact a rape, she should've gone to doctor right away for gathing of evidence. You don't wait five days and lose all the evidence. This will not stand up in court.

3 Guys, 1 girl, sorry, it does sound like rape. And that post by Zenny, where he claims if the girl stops fighting, its becomes consensual sex, is incorrect. In fact its disgusting. If the girl realizing resistance is futile, and that she can't get away until her rapist allows her to, stops fighting, it doesn't mean she hasn't been raped. Rather the opposite in fact. If the girl says NO, then thats it. Continuing when the girl declines sex is Rape. Nothing less.

But in a conservative mind, location does seem to matter. The location may imply intent or even consent, and the police or prosecution would most likely not put much effort into their investigation.

Liberal and conservative have nothing to do with this. And location doesn't matter. The womans desire does. If the girl says no, while swimming naked in the guys pool, again, No means No. It may be difficult to prove, but regardless it is rape.

"She waited 5 days? Must have been consensual!"

Honestly, has the thought never occured to you that she spent 4 days refusing to leave her apartment because she was too afraid? That she had to be convinced by family/friends to do it?

Molenir.

Ever read a trial record of a rape case? One of the Key-question is Always:

Did you resist all the way?

It is called "Implied Consent" in legal terms. I am talking LEGAL TERMS here.

What is TRULY disgusting is the way a RAPE Victim is treated in court which is usually more traumatic than the Incident itself.

Molenir at 05:35 AM JST - 22nd September 3 Guys, 1 girl, sorry, it does sound like rape

Well, you can accuse these three guys, but where is the real solid evidence? This case is most likely your word against hers. If this case goes to trial, the jurors are told that they can only find the defendant guilty if they are convinced "beyond a reasonable doubt" of his or her guilt. The good defense lawyers know they probably cannot get conviction of these three guys because there is no solid evidence. She has no case.

"I like how people will say let's not jump to conclusions and then declare the men innocent while making light of rape. Please choose one or the other."

As opposed to the people who are insisting that these guys are guilty and claiming her to be stupid?

Many women in Japan wait days to report it - if at all. Some don't want to deal with being "raped" all over again by the police (this was how a women from Oz who was raped by an American GI described her treatment by the j police when she reported it RIGHT AFTER it happened). Until Japan takes rape seriously women will wait or not report it at all. The whole notion of "don't shower, don't wash, head straight to the police or ER" is not taught here at all.

tmarie at 07:13 AM JST - 22nd September I like how people will say let's not jump to conclusions and then declare the men innocent while making light of rape. Please choose one or the other." Many women in Japan wait days to report it - if at all. Some don't want to deal with being "raped" all over again by the police

Please choose one or other?? A joke. This article does not tell much and every case is different. I do not like to generalize that Japanese women wait days to report it because every case is different. How can you choose one or the other? I have no idea on the evidence and you really don't have facts or evidence to study on. Do you really know this case and have you seen the evidence? I been a juror for serious sexual assualt case. In all of the cases, the surface of the case looks completely different compare to actual trial and evidence presentation. The defense will attack anything on women's negative background such as sexual history, consensual and changed, lies, exaggeration, multiple partners, mental state, extortion, lies, criminal background, did she get paid, prostitution, medication, etc. You don't know nothing about this women and the sequence of events led to this night, no evidence, her mental state, etc. How can you draw any conclusion from this short article? Maybe you can.

Well, you can accuse these three guys, but where is the real solid evidence?

Well it is a he said/she said situation you're right. But how many girls jump at the chance for a 3 guy/1 girl situation? That suggests a lot. In fact all these posters here saying, oh she probably just made it up, had second thoughts etc, the opposite is probably true. Indeed I wonder at some of the posters here who seem so ready to condemn the woman, and dismiss any chance the men are guilty. I mean, if a man says he didn't rape the girl, that it was consensual, then they assume it absolutely is the case. Claiming that because she waited days before reporting it, means she wasn't raped. This whole argument is nonsense. Many women, not only in Japan, but around the world don't report rapes immediately. The trauma, the violence, the fear of what happened, and whats going to happen when she reports it, the ordeal she is going to have to go through for justice to be done, and to protect future victims, is a huge burden. One that many women, particularly in Japan, have a tough time facing.

The facts thus far:

1) The woman went to the apartment to meet ONE man who claimed he had something to talk with her about. None of the men charged dispute this point.

2) When she arrived, she discovered there were THREE men in the apartment. Any assumptions about how soon she knew there were three men there or what size the apartment are just that: assumptions.

3) One of the accused has already admitted that coercion was involved.

In a nutshell, we’ve already had:

“ . . . She waited 14 days . . . oops. err . . . five days to report the rape. What does she expect?”

“ . . . If she didn’t resisting, what does she expect?”

“ . . . Look at the time of night she was out. What did she expect?”

“ . . . She was going to a man’s apartment. What did she expect?”

The only thing missing from the majority of posts here defending these sad excuses for men is the time-honored, "Look at how she was dressed. She was asking for it."

Truly, truly pathetic the degree of creative acrobatics going on here to pin this on the woman who was assaulted.

Maybe someone here can roll out old LDP asshat Seiji Ota, who informs us that, "Gang rape shows the people who do it are still vigorous, and that is OK. I think that might make them close to normal."

To those here who seem bent on making the woman in this crime the criminal, when - - not "if," but when, based on the statistical likelihood of rape - - someone close to you is raped, I'm certain many of you will be whistling a far different tune.

LFRAgain.

Those and way nastier(more personal) questions she WILL have to answer in court at trial time.

for it to be rape in legal terms she will have to fight/resist ALL the way. If she stops resisting it becomes consentual sex

So if she's forced to have sex with a knife held to her neck, it isn't rape unless she ends up dead with her throat cut?

I read a comment somewhere long ago to the effect that unless it's a 90-year-old nun covered in bruises and lacerations and the victim is dead, it wasn't really rape. Sickening.

You like Molenir and others give very extreme and bad comparisons. Read up on Date Rape before you pull the heavy violence act and check how large the percentage of all rapes is Date rape.

Studies show that fighting back/resisting(don't have to include kicks and punches) has resulted in shorter rape times and often in NO rape at all.

Same studies also showed that Violence by the rapist often was initiated by the victim first by enraging him.

Very often also talking, etc can prevent a rape.

Honestly think that some people her think she was charged and raped as soon as she walked in through the the door.

But I give in. Let the Rape Victim lie still to get it over with and get told that she cannot file a case against the rapist by her lawyer.

BTW, she has NO guarantee that she won't be roughed up or even killed after the guy/guys are spend.

Forgot.

Fighting back and being restrained does leave marks on the Body that will be used as evidence. No marks, her word against his/theirs.

That is one reason why a rape-victim should show as she is at a Police station as the Rape kit includes DNA, Semen samples, etc as well as photographic evidence of marks, busies, cuts, etc.

Days later recollection already becomes blurred and facts are either lost or being made up.

Violence by the rapist often was initiated by the victim first by enraging him.

I don't believe I'm reading this.

Believe it or not those are from police studies done on Victims and the effects of fighting back, etc.

Rape is about Power and Control NOT Sex.

Over the years we have interviewed hundreds of women who have been raped. In cases of date and acquaintance rape we found a surprising fact. In approximately 80% of the events the woman initiated the physical violence!

From another HIGHLY respected source: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ineffective_violence.htm

Done here, have fun a LOT to read in that link.

Molenir at 08:11 AM JST - 22nd September. Claiming that because she waited days before reporting it, means she wasn't raped. This whole argument is nonsense.

You misunderstood. My point is chances of conviction becomes more difficult. Even if the victim is 100 percent sure she was raped, she still has to prove her case against the accuser and waiting five days does not help because you lost direct evidence. Even with the difficulty of being a victim of rape, she has to come to her senses and go to the nearest hospital for the gathering of evidence, such as seman, clothes, photos of scratches and direct memory. Any Attorney will tell you if you're accusing somebody of rape, and backing up with strong direct evidence, then you have a better chance of putting these guys away. If trial becomes "he said she said" such as maybe in this case, this is a problem with alot of questions and few attorneys wants to get involved in because chances of winning dimishes considerably.

Same studies also showed that Violence by the rapist often was initiated by the victim first by enraging him.

Wow, just wow. I'm almost speechless here. You're blaming the victim for being raped. Saying she caused it? Just, Wow.

I don't believe I'm reading this.

Yeah. Hard to believe.

Molenir.

I never blamed anyone nor said anyone is at fault. I am given facts based on studies, If you don't like them ....

Crime does not occur from one second to the next, there is a process of escalation, bad decisions, etc.

Personally I would call her foolish. Going to a guys Apartment at 02:00am to discuss something.

Was she raped? Probably but I'll let the evidence against them speak. In today's society we depend on hard physical evidence... pardon the pun.

Zenny11,

"Same studies also showed that Violence by the rapist often was initiated by the victim first by enraging him."

Dude. So if I piss you off, that justifies you raping me? Are you seriously tring to peddle this garbage? Unfreakingbelievable.

Who is talking about justification? Read the link? Doubt it.

You won't read it as it might burst a few bubbles.

Sorry Zenny, but the link you give does in a way justify rape; it basically says that the woman objecting to inappropriate touching with a slap is the instigator of violence and a man whose hormones are running the show can't be expected to take No for an answer unless she lays him out cold with the first blow. That isn't so. It's the person who does the inappropriate touching who is the instigator.

Cleo.

Like I said there is a LOT of info(hint: sublinks).

The site does not justify it but goes deep into explaining what is happening and the leads up to a rape, prevention, etc.

Remember: Raping a Woman is the ULTIMATE control over her. Usually the rapist wants control over the victim(rape might not even be the initial plan) but as things escalate it becomes more and more an option.

I read the link, and the only bubble bursting here is the one surrounding the argument that women initiate the violence in a rape situation 80% of the time.

The site you linked to is "No Nonsense Self-Defense," and it specializes in selling self-defense books and assorted paraphanalia. I think the basic jist of the argument is something like, "We think 80% of women initiate the violence during rape, so why not make that violence count!?"

The 80% figure you are referring to is an estimate provided by Mr. Marc 'Animal' MacYoung and his wife Dianna in allegedly hundreds of interviews that they've conducted personally. To their credit, they do seem like they sincerely want to help people in the area of self defense as they offer a lot of information on their site.

However, this finding is simply not legitimate. I would question not only their research methods (which they fail to disclose) but also their motivation as they are selling self defense products on the very same site where "fact" about woman-initiated violence in rape is posted. In the future, if you are going to make a claim that is so intuitively wrong, please quote from a more reliable source. Thanks.

Zenny - If a woman has to resort to physical violence to get a man to back off, the guy is already in the wrong. Whether or not a woman knows killer self-defense skills should not have an effect on whether or not she gets raped. I think what's bothering Cleo and I about the site (and I did explore it a bit) is that it doesn't address the underlying problem of rape, i.e. men's issues with self-control; I personally read this: "Welp, someone's going to sexually assault you and unless you study our self defence courses you're going to get raped."

We shouldn't have to worry about self-defense, protecting ourselves, or even this whole 'don't make the guy angry' nonsense. Rape is unacceptable, no matter what the circumstances are, and people need to learn that.

Personally I would call her foolish. Going to a guys Apartment at 02:00am to discuss something.

If she was in a relationship with the man, she would trust him enough to do that. If your significant other called you up in the middle of the night and said "I need to talk to you about something important" wouldn't you be worried? We don't have all the facts in this case, but her visit to his apartment (especially when she thought he was alone) was not neccessarily foolish.

Kazan.

The site does address it in "Potential Rapist & Abuser". Like I said rape is not about sex. ;) Resisting don't have to be physical hits and kicks.

Article said he was an "Aquaintance" i.e. someone she knew fleetingly.

The other point you are touching on is covered in another Hub. And that is in the Legal difference between SD and Fighting.

The way the legal systems defines and treats any situation is often very different from how we as everyday people would treat/perceive them.

The best way it so get out of there at the 1st sign of things going wrong, once things are going wrong and after is where the legal stuff comes in.

The site is not about selling a product or SD course perse, but about education about what good and bad SD is. Their Forum is great but you need to have a background in Police, Martial Arts, Criminal studies, etc to get approved for joining.

As you said we don't have all the details, but I am sure that there is more to it(a history, etc).

In a situation if the woman wanted a little bit of intimacy, and so went to the aprtment at an odd hour. Yes, probably she had a degree of trust with this man. But something happened and she ended up getting raped.What is it? Did she deserve to get raped?

In this woman's case, there are 2 others involved so it is very unlikely that she is lying about rape.Also, it is very difficult for a woman to admit to herself that she was raped. And then to go and tell it to someone, especially the police is not an easy thing for a woman psychologically.

Zenny - I'm not disagreeing with you in that rape is about control, not sex. And while your winking smiley is tasteless, I also agree that resistance doesn't have to be physical.

However, the site still frustrates me. It might only be the wording of how they write the article, but seriously, 80% of women instigated the violence? It honestly does sound like they are trying to justify something. Coupled with what jamal2609 said up there (how did they get these figures? Why don't they disclose their research methods?) and I'm sincerely disinclined to believe that this site is a credible source for information about rape.

Article said he was an "Aquaintance" i.e. someone she knew fleetingly.

In newspaper talk, 'aquaintance' can mean anyone not related to you by blood or marriage. Newspapers tend not to use words like boyfriend unless they are deliberately trying to be sensationalist.

kazan.

He does have a unique style of writing. If you got complaints about the site contact him directly.

This site of course is not my only source. But the info there can be verified with police, etc sources.

Anyhuh, time for some luncheon/supper.

Moderator: All readers, back on topic please. No further references to that site.

Techall

Asking someone to have a threesome/foursome is not rape.

@dano2002

So now you think they asked her and she accepted, I thought you said he coerced her. So coersion is the same as asking?

I will not speak to this case, but I had a foreigner acquaintance who was held for 21 days in Japanese prison because a girl claimed he raped her. There was zero evidence to that fact other than her word of mouth and he was released on the 21st day because of lack of evidence. Anyone can be held in jail to be questionsed WITHOUT BEING CHARGED for 21 days in this country. I would shutter this talk about Japan being a "first-world power" on the subject of defendent's rights.

Zenny11,

“ Reason as for it to be rape in legal terms she will have to fight/resist ALL the way. If she stops resisting it becomes consentual sex.

Complete and utter horse-poop, not only from a legal standpoint, but also from a logical one. You’re wrong. Period.

“Ever read a trial record of a rape case? One of the Key-question is Always: Did you resist all the way?”

No, not always, and no, not always that question. Furthermore, this particular question has no basis in law and is used rather to sow seeds of doubt in the judge and potential jurors. As defense attorneys are wont (and paid) to do. To present “implied consent” as a legally accepted litmus test for determining rape is disingenuous on your part. In fact, numerous legal jurisdictions, including a high court in Canada, have dispensed outright with “implied consent” as a defense for rape, for obvious reasons, the most glaring being the patently outrageous implied rape justification of “Look at how she was dressed.” Well, perhaps more obviously ridiculous to some than others.

“I never blamed anyone nor said anyone is at fault. I am given facts based on studies . . . “

Yes, you did lay blame by bringing these various “facts” to the table in the first place, facts garnered, it bears mentioning, from a single website run by a survivalist hawking self-defense training and products. Yes, that is precisely what the site is.

This isn’t a discussion about how this woman might have avoided being raped. It’s a discussion about whether or not a rape occurred.

But you’re approaching the subject as if it’s about how to avoid credit card fraud, and it’s not.

Does this mean discussing deterrence is off limits? Of course not. But in the context of your numerous posts on the subject, you seem almost insistent on using a “deterrence” to convincing everyone that this woman somehow bears some of the blame for being sexually assaulted by not being a, what? self-defense trained survivalist.

“Rape is about Power and Control NOT Sex.

Yeah, we get that already. And knowing that distinction while one is being sexually assaulted helps the victim how exactly?

Regardless of what a woman wears, what time of the night she chooses to socialize, or what her motivations may be for deciding to speak to a male acquaintance one-on-one, there’s no rationalization, justification, reason, or place for rape of any sort in any society.

Regardless of what a woman wears, what time of the night she chooses to socialize, or what her motivations may be for deciding to speak to a male acquaintance one-on-one, there’s no rationalization, justification, reason, or place for rape of any sort in any society.

Thanks LFRagain. This is what I wanted someone to say very clearly. No justification for rape.

Agreed, No justification for rape.

“Rape is about Power and Control NOT Sex.

The allegation is not that they put her on a leash and kicked her. Rape is about ALL of the above.

Not singling out Zenny (in fact he has a lot of good insights) but it is always a little disturbing to watch a bunch of guys get together and try and suss out what is and what isn't rape, and make like they know all there is to know about the female condition.

I still say these guys are idiots and deserve to go down. To further clarify, everyone, the first time you have sex with a woman is VERY special. You treat her like gold. You keep it all very standard. The time to get wild is the second time, or third. And of course, its after a date, not a bit after she arrived at your buddy's place and have a foursome right there. That is stupid. And guy's so stupid deserve their rape conviction even if they are not guilty, reason being because they have given us NO reason to conclude anything but that they did the crime. Even if they are not rapists, what is there to prove it? All the signs I see point to the guys' story being fishy as hell.

Sorry.

Views like this make me cringe as they are wrong and based on a simplistic understandings of rights, privileges, etc.

Regardless of what a woman wears, what time of the night she chooses to socialize, or what her motivations may be for deciding to speak to a male acquaintance one-on-one, there’s no rationalization, justification, reason, or place for rape of any sort in any society.

This whole it is my right and victims are blameless is the thinking that leads to events like the above.

To me neither her nor the guys statements make much sense. Given that there is NO forensic data available it is now a "He said, she said" case.

Lets wait to hear more details.

Klein2 said: But smoking as a social phenomenon really took off after that. Don't oversimplify the poster's message just to make it easier to attack it.

Rape is, in the grand scheme of things, not new knowledge to be spread by TV. No man needs a movie to consider rape. No man needs a movie to want to do it. No movie will make rape a social phenomenon.

For my part, I am trying to think of a mainstream movie where a nice girl decides to have sex with three guys at once. Or any girl for that matter. There aren't any.

I am trying to think what this has to do with anything, especially your notion of what constitutes a "nice girl".

I know that this 4p scene is recreation to some people, but this kind of thing is always portrayed misogynistically.

My advice to you is to stop looking for clues on relationships from the work of artists, whether its movies or music. A lot of your comments are very naive.

one thing that bothers me about a lot of movies is the way they portray women being abused in all kinds of situations. A lot of guys get off on that and imitate that.

And more probably get off on that and don't imitate it or imitate it consensually.

It doesn't happen. It only happens in sick movies.

Good luck proving that. Ask any woman for details of her sex life, and brace yourself for a slap. They don't talk about it. We don't know what they get up to. The woman might be lying, but I think the odds are very, very slim of that.

I have got a better idea. How about treating women as women and not targets or service people?

How about give and take, consensually? And add some CYA and you are good to go.

Why do humans do this? I don't think mammals do this.

Dolphins do, and I suspect its for the same reasons as people. And lots of male animals chase the female until she relents. If you are a city person, you have had not had the observational opportunities to comment on this.

The guys can corroborate if they are innocent. Maybe they are, but the police say they aren't.

I don't think anything can be proven except that they are irresponsible and selfish idiots. Even is she is just getting back at them for bragging, they deserve it.

all of those things are becoming more complicated.

Only the rules and amount of evidence has changed. All else is the same as it ever was. So is rape. But people are now calling things rape that aren't. For example, if a woman is sleeping, they call it rape. Well, not if you know the woman doesn't mind. Or if she says no, its rape. Some women always say no, ESPECIALLY when they are enjoying it. Some women will also push away when they want you to come closer. But so many men are too stupid to be able to judge the situation correctly, so they come up with these crazy, and frankly naive rules.

There is no reason that people should not be responsible for what their genitalia do if they must be responsible for what their fists do.

Of course we should be responsible. But that does not mean everything will play out as you want, and it does not mean we will have proper evidence to prove who was wrong.

Zenny, I suspect she may well have gone to the guy's place open for sex. But, it does not sound like she knew anything about the other two guys until she got there. How could she? How could she even foresee that? Because if we go expecting that level of foresight and caution, all our sex lives are going to go down the toilet. She did not get raped on the street in a dark alley by some stranger. She arrived at her destination into the arms of the man she expected to meet. That is plenty. From there, she may be a liar or not, but the three men FAIL no matter what. They threw caution to the winds. They could have raped her at 2 p.m. instead of 2 a.m. given the circumstances.

Like I said we need more details but you make some valid points.

He said/She said indeed.

Did everyone just sort of forget that one of the suspects admitted to coercion while his friends continue to cling to the story that it was consensual? That discrepancy alone should raise more than a few eyebrows.

When one out of the three is admitting to the accusation, there really isn't much mystery remaining, and it's not long before the other two find the intestinal fortitude to admit that they crossed a line.

LFRAgain said: When one out of the three is admitting to the accusation

Also, police interrogation methods are fair and humane!

Molenir: For the record, when I wrote about liberal and conservative minds, I was not referring to the taxing and spending habits of governments, but to the degree of trust in the inherent reasoning powers of the human mind and the freedom from outside control, influence, or preconceptions. I do lament the fact that these words, especially liberal, have been hijacked by politicians and people with precious little knowledge of what they truly mean. Not saying that's you, for I sense you are also a liberal, in the classic sense. You and I both agree that location has no bearing on the investigation or verdict. That would put us in the liberal camp, so to speak, in this context.

Also for the record, I would say that rape begins at any point of resistance, active or passive, including after penetration. For example, even if a woman has agreed to coitus and coitus is initiated, but she changes her mind midway through and indicates as such, it would in my mind constitute rape if the man did not immediately stop. The unstoppable train defense is wholly without merit, as is any other lame excuse for rape. How's that for liberal thinking?

Only the rules and amount of evidence has changed. All else is the same as it ever was. So is rape. But people are now calling things rape that aren't. For example, if a woman is sleeping, they call it rape. Well, not if you know the woman doesn't mind. Or if she says no, its rape. Some women always say no, ESPECIALLY when they are enjoying it. Some women will also push away when they want you to come closer. But so many men are too stupid to be able to judge the situation correctly, so they come up with these crazy, and frankly naive rules.

For sex to be consensual, both parties must actually consent. That means, if the woman is sleeping, and the male has sex with her without her knowledge, this is in fact rape. Admittedly, if you're in a committed, loving relationship with someone, having them wake you up this way can be kind of nice. However you have to have boundaries, and rules. And this can easily cross the line. If the woman is drunk for example, she cannot give consent. And finally, as lemur pointed out, if one of the parties declines, at any time, and the other continues, it once again becomes rape. It does not matter how the girl is dressed, how she talks, walks, or where she is. If she does not actually consent, it is rape.

Also, police interrogation methods are fair and humane!

Please tell us, how so?

it would be hard to Resists all the way IF they had a Gun threaten to Hit OR did hit her. although with some cuts & Bruises it would be easyier to Prove. why was there 3 of them? seems obviouse it was a Gang Rape. either way theres many of these in Japan & it seems as though & JP friends told me, Japan used to block out & Not allow alot of crime reports. (safest country in the World) isn't. I KNOW I KNOW theres more crime in the US but it always reported. 3 firemen? another way to Ruin a reputation of Guys who are usually Respected.

Read the article:

According to police, two of the three men have denied the charges, claiming that sex was consensual...

So ONE of them admitted that the sex was NOT consensual... he probably ratted on the other two - i.e. - THEY ARE GUILTY!

Tough call this one. While it is possible to believe these guys did work her over, it is just as possible she agreed to it and then woke up in the morning full of regret. Sorry ladies, but it is just too easy for a woman to cry 'rape'.

This kind of thing will continue to happen while japanese media portray rape as a form of romantic foreplay.

Until we know more details, we can't say anything for sure, but I think it's pretty believable the woman was assaulted.

"Police said the victim was acquainted with Katakura who, claiming he had something to discuss, requested that she meet him at his apartment."

Claiming HE had something to discuss... not THEY, but HE. I'm sure if he said, "There are three young guys here. We want you to come up alone and DISCUSS something with us" she probably would have said no thanks. And these guys can claim they thought it was 'consensual' simply because the woman went up there -- there are a number of Japanese I know who believe that if a woman goes to a man's house, it means she's open to sex -- but that would not make them right if she tried to say 'no'. We'll see what happens, but I doubt nothing more comes up to prove that she was indeed raped, sadly the law will take the word of the men over the woman.