crime

American father, son to go on trial for helping Ghosn flee Japan

65 Comments
By YURI KAGEYAMA

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65 Comments
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GREAT !!.. Criminals helping criminals deserve trial and punishment..

Sorry Ghosnbelievers, prepare your tissues boxes.. lol !!..

-42 ( +12 / -54 )

@Kentaro

You will be eating your words the day you get falsely accused by Japanese police for a crime you didn't commit. Held in prison and not allowed bail until you confess. Guilty till proven innocent, eh? Too bad for people like you who lack empathy, they only "get it" when it happens to them.

44 ( +54 / -10 )

Good luck to both of them. I hope that they continue the legacy of Mr. Ghosn by exposing Japans disgusting legal system, Japan's disgusting bureaucrat prosecutors and Japan's pathetic little judges.

27 ( +35 / -8 )

"You will be eating your words the day you get falsely accused by Japanese police for a crime you didn't commit"

"hid Ghosn in a large box meant to carry audio equipment, snuck him through airport security in Osaka, and loaded him onto a private jet to Turkey. "

Even the Maasai (renowned for their overall tolerance) would class this as a CRIME.

-18 ( +9 / -27 )

In principle, people accused of crimes in Japan are presumed innocent until proven guilty. But the conviction rate is higher than 99%.

I wonder if he/she wrote this with a straight face.

20 ( +23 / -3 )

Weak Japanese prosecutors and weak Japanese lawyers won’t win this one.

3 ( +10 / -7 )

Weak Japanese prosecutors and weak Japanese lawyers won’t win this one.

Well, I guess it's all down to scaredy cat cowardly custard Japanese Judges.

6 ( +11 / -5 )

English translations will be provided

Presumably Japanese ones too:

Taylors: “We maintain that we are innocent”

Court-appointed interpreter: “私たちは数百人を殺しました。これは私たちの告白です”

9 ( +14 / -5 )

Conflicting feelings about this, on one side it is obvious the guys acted illegally even if by helping someone cross international borders without proper documentation, on the other side the legal system in Japan is not going to be fair for them thanks to the embarrassing thing they did with Ghosn.

Maybe at the end this will help calling to attention the multiple flaws in the Japanese legal system, but I am not very optimistic about it.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

Japanese suspects are tried even if they plead guilty.

Everyone jumps all over that 99% conviction rate but tend to ignore little facts like this which put that number in context. In the US the majority of suspects negotiate a plea bargain and avoid trial, but usually end up going to prison (innocent or not) anyway. In Japan they only recently introduced plea bargaining and it is only available in a very small number of cases.

Also police and prosecutors here have a lot of discretion to let suspects go, which they exercise in the majority of cases.

So that 99% includes everyone who has already plead guilty, because they need to be tried anyway, and excludes those where suspects have already been released without being prosecuted.

This isn’t to say that the criminal law system doesn’t have major problems here, but it does demonstrate why despite this dreaded 99% figure so few people are actually convicted and sent to prison here.

-7 ( +5 / -12 )

It's amazing to see how this case is hurting 'Japanese Culture'!

I say it like that because everything is excused as 'it has been part of the culture forever'

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Along with Kelly,the Taylors will be found guilty as charged.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

This is a face saving exercise, pure and simple!

8 ( +12 / -4 )

GREAT !!.. Criminals helping criminals deserve trial and punishment..

Sorry Ghosnbelievers, prepare your tissues boxes.. lol !!..

Who is the criminal? Japan has no proof of anything, but you already know he's a criminal? Can you provide and proof that implies he comitted a crime? Or the Taylors comitted a crime? As they saw it, they were helping an innocent guy.

Since the French prosecutors saw no crime done and are about to drop the case, what would Japan do?

3 ( +8 / -5 )

Since the French prosecutors saw no crime done and are about to drop the case, what would Japan do?

How do you know it. Reported already or what?

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

I hope Ghosn paid these mercenaries handsomely, because they are looking at 2 years with hard labor.

Japan should step up their efforts to get Ghosn back for his day in court by paying off Lebanese officials to capture him.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

Japan has no proof of anything, but you already know he's a criminal? Can you provide and proof that implies he comitted a crime? 

The article literally contains a photo of him caught in the act. Also Taylor has freely admitted in interviews to doing exactly what he is accused of doing.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

I don’t know about internals of the Japanese penal system, but the resulting stats for Japan are very impressive compared, for example, to US: 600 in US). From this number it doesn’t look like Japanese system have a significant trend to convict innocent people. In this context 99% conviction rate seems a good thing since less innocent people get charged at the first place.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Meanwhile at Toshiba HQ.. Ohayo Gozaimas (business as usual). If you aren't Japanese you ain't sh*t in Japan!!! Ghosn ate up all the tatemae they served him.. GM offered him the CEO position better salary/benefits but he was intoxicated with the Tatemae praise and compliments..

6 ( +7 / -1 )

The Japanese prosecutors have a 99% conviction rate because they only indict cases where they’re sure of getting condition. They just drop cases they can’t win no matter how heinous the crime is.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Ghosn ate up all the tatemae they served him..

Indeed. Ghosn's colossal ego was his downfall... the Japanese were blowing smoke up his rear all along and he couldn't see it.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Show trial, the outcome is a foregone conclusion.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Ghosn lawyers can finally look at the evidence gathered by the j-prosecution.

Lawyers say that is plenty of intentional mistakes.

Soon the evidence will be made public and we will know the truth.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

It's a foregone conclusion, but not because it is a show trial. There's no real debate on facts here, only one for the law. One that he has already presented to the United States courts (I'm not even sure if extradition trials really should cover that, but anyway the judge played ball) and they rejected him. Why he thinks it would pass the Japanese court I have no idea.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

kennyGToday  09:16 am JST

Since the French prosecutors saw no crime done and are about to drop the case, what would Japan do?

How do you know it. Reported already or what?

https://japantoday.com/category/crime/ghosn%27s-lawyers-say-client-happy-after-days-of-french-probe#comment-2489967

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

I sure hope Ghosn paid them enough for a lifetime. These guys are going to prison, while Ghosn is free.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

sir_bentley28Today  10:29 am JST

kennyGToday  09:16 am JST

Since the French prosecutors saw no crime done and are about to drop the case, what would Japan do?

How do you know it. Reported already or what?

https://japantoday.com/category/crime/ghosn%27s-lawyers-say-client-happy-after-days-of-french-probe#comment-2489967

I see That is how you should read this news to conclude as such

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@Sir Bentley

Let's not get overexcited and jump into conclusions yet.

We just know that there are mistakes in the evidence. But is still early to claim victory.

https://www.arabnews.com/node/1870491

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

https://japantoday.com/category/crime/ghosn%27s-lawyers-say-client-happy-after-days-of-french-probe#comment-2489967

Its important to note that the French investigators were looking into a completely different set of accusations than what he is facing charges for in Japan.

The French were looking into acts he had committed in his role as an officer of a French Corporation. They were not looking into whether he violated Japanese reporting requirements with respect to his compensation, or whether he had embezzled funds from Nissan for his own personal use, which is what he is charged with doing in Japan.

So the results of the French investigation is really irrelevant in regard to what he is facing in Japan (let alone what the Taylors are facing in Japan, which is the topic of the article).

3 ( +4 / -1 )

The elder Taylor has helped parents rescue abducted children, gone undercover for the FBI and worked as a contractor for the U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Are there any US soldiers here ? How do you guys feel about this ?

Isn't it a bit strange how America just handed a very good soldier over to be tried in Japan. Isn't this a treason of some sort ? Are they here on a mission to collect info on the Japanese justice system first hand ?

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

... the Japanese were blowing smoke up his rear all along and he couldn't see it.

. the Japanese were colluding with the Japanese government to prevent the big Renault merger all along and he couldn't see it.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Isn't it a bit strange how America just handed a very good soldier over to be tried in Japan.

It has something to do with Japan selling rockets to the U.S., and some other defense deals.

Bloomberg has a good article that explains this extradition.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

We all know that here they are automatically guilty before they even stand trial. Hostage justice, even though we call ourselves a civilized country.

In a truly civilized country with a proper legal system, they are innocent until the court finds them guilty. The legal burden of proof is not on them but always on the prosecuting party. Not so here.

So I don't understand why the pretending with the court. They could save a huge amount of our money, taxpayer money, and just put them in jail depending on what the prosecutor says. So automatically guilty, especially if it is a foreigner who cannot be trusted or if it is not a wealthy person, especially a politician.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Isn't it a bit strange how America just handed a very good soldier over to be tried in Japan.

He is not a serving member of the United States armed forces nor was he in any way acting on behalf of the United States armed forces or the United States government when he committed these acts. So no, it isn't even remotely strange.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

He is not a serving member of the United States armed forces nor was he in any way acting on behalf of the United States armed forces or the United States government when he committed these acts. So no, it isn't even remotely strange.

Thanks ! Was he never a serving member of the USAF ?

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Was he never a serving member of the USAF ?

Just google-ed ,... He was a green beret , and these are the special forces are they not ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Special_Forces

No wonder Rambo was so pissed off coming back from Vietnam

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Do the crime, do the time.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

In principle, people accused of crimes in Japan are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Ex-Justice Minister Mori Masako seemed not to agree

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Just google-ed ,... He was a green beret , and these are the special forces are they not ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Special_Forces

No wonder Rambo was so pissed off coming back from Vietnam

So? Are you saying the law doesn't apply to former members of the armed forces? They can just do whatever they want?

That makes no sense. I'm a former Canadian soldier and I do NOT expect the Canadian legal system to treat me any different from every other person just because of that.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

So? Are you saying the law doesn't apply to former members of the armed forces? They can just do whatever they want?

The Japanese law ? No ! I thought it doesn't ! It shouldn't ... it doesn't make sense to me .. they bled for America and now at the mercy of a foreign dubious government .

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

The Japanese law ? No ! I thought it doesn't !

They committed the crime in Japan, so as with anyone else who commits a crime in Japan, Japanese law applies to them, former soldier or not.

 it doesn't make sense to me .. they bled for America and now at the mercy of a foreign dubious government .

it makes perfect sense. Someone commits crime - they get tried for it. Whether or not they bled (not sure this guy ever literally bled for the US but assume you are speaking metaphorically) for the United States government is irrelevant. Military service is not a get out of jail free card, nor should it be.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

There are only 3 countries in this world with extradition treaties with Japan.

There's a good reason for that.

No country would extradite it's citizens to a place with a dubious justice system.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

They committed the crime in Japan, so as with anyone else who commits a crime in Japan, Japanese law applies to them, former soldier or not.

If they were caught by the Japanese in Japan then, fine, detention and trial is understandable but even then the US government should be on his side ! Everything else is STRANGE !

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Just being a foreigner is nine-tenths of the law (against you). I wish them luck but their fate is already sealed.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

the US government should be on his side ! 

You're right. To prove your point, the US army deployed in Japan has an agreement to have their people handed over to American justice immediately after detention.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Am confused by the comments here, whatever your feelings for Ghosn are, the guys obviously illegally exfiltrated a person out of the country. They are going to jail, in Japan like it would be the case anywhere else.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

The Japanese "Hostage Justice & Forced Confession System" is the cause of this. If it were modern civilized system, probably none of this would have happened.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

You're right. To prove your point, the US army deployed in Japan has an agreement to have their people handed over to American justice immediately after detention.

This is just not correct. Its not applicable to Taylor anyway since he entered Japan as a civilian and not in any way connected to the US military, but at any rate the Status of Forces Agreement clearly states that Japanese authorities have jurisdiction over US military members who break Japanese law within Japanese territory.

They are only obliged to hand over US military members to the US side when they have been accused of commtting crimes under American law but not Japanese law (such as treason). in contrast the US is obliged to hand over US military personnel for prosecution to Japanese authorities when they have committed crimes punishable by Japanese law.

Its basically the opposite of what you say it is.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

They will be convicted for sure. No way they see the inside of Fuchu. A Max 3 year sentence and/or a 300,000 Yen fine? Sentence will be suspended, Fine invoked, Deported upon payment/paperwork completion and banned for (x) years from re-entering Japan.

Cheaper than keeping them locked up for even a year.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

99% conviction rate on cases that go to trial, but between 60~65% of cases do not go to trial as prosecutors are unable to guarantee a guilty verdict, which has an impact on their performance rating and future career.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

kinda hoping they'll also be helped out of Japan. Hostage justice should not be acceptable

1 ( +1 / -0 )

and at 14:38 - News agencies reporting that they have indeed plead guilty. The deal was already sealed quite clearly.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

in contrast the US is obliged to hand over US military personnel for prosecution to Japanese authorities when they have committed crimes punishable by Japanese law.

This really is mind blowing !

Is this some wording game ? "US military personnel" is that same as US military officer ? Have you got a link to some official document supporting this ? It really is unbelievable .

1 ( +2 / -1 )

No way they see the inside of Fuchu. A Max 3 year sentence and/or a 300,000 Yen fine? Sentence will be suspended, Fine invoked, Deported upon payment/paperwork completion and banned for (x) years from re-entering Japan.

This makes more sense !

I mean think about it ? An ex special forces officer of the most powerful army in the world rotting in Japanese prison ?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

This really is mind blowing !

Is this some wording game ? "US military personnel" is that same as US military officer ? Have you got a link to some official document supporting this ? It really is unbelievable .

Not sure why it is mind blowing, its been the law for decades. If Americans commit crimes in Japan, they get their asses busted in japan, that is the way it should be by any reasonable standard. The relevant law is here:

https://www.usarj.army.mil/Portals/33/cmdstaffs/sja/doc/sofa_201601.pdf

The relevant section is Article XVII 1(b) which states:

"the authorities of Japan shall have jurisdiction over the members of the United States armed forces, the civilian component, and their dependents with respect to their offenses committed within the territory of Japan and punishable by the law of Japan."

It applies to all US military members, commissioned or non-commissioned, and the civilian component (civilian contractors, dependents, etc).

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The relevant section is Article XVII 1(b) which states:

(a) the military authorities of the United States shall have the right to exercise within Japan all criminal and disciplinary jurisdiction conferred on them by the law of the United States over all persons subject to the military law of the United States;

So if you are a US soldier you are a subject to the military law of the US. So US is by no means is "obliged" to do anything according to this treaty

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

In principle, people accused of crimes in Japan are presumed innocent until they confess.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

if Americans commit crimes in Japan, they get their asses busted in japan, that is the way it should be by any reasonable standard

Nooooo ! Not american military ! Completely different realm ! If the US Military says fine you can prosecute him then maybe else no way Jose !

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

and at 14:38 - News agencies reporting that they have indeed plead guilty. The deal was already sealed quite clearly.

Smart. If Ghosn had done so he would be free by now and not stuck in Beirut.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Smart. If Ghosn had done so he would be free by now and not stuck in Beirut.

I must agree with that.

The system only allows guilty confessions, 86% of trials are based on a guilty confession.

Otherwise, the system will suck 2~3 years of your life and all your money.

Even if you end up with a not-guilty verdict, you've already lost everything you got.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Someone who escapes to another country to avoid a trial is a crime itself whether you live in a developed country or an underdeveloped one. Ghosn was obviuosly worried about the unaccounted millions that had disappeared. He SHOULD be held to account and given a fair trial to prove his innocence.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

These guys are innocent. They thought they were transporting Ghosn’s precious furniture that’s all.

(Ghosn is innocent by the way, Nissan and Toshiba and the government are the bad parties here)

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

So if you are a US soldier you are a subject to the military law of the US. So US is by no means is "obliged" to do anything according to this treaty

Keep reading, it doesn’t work like that. A following provision makes it clear that American authorities only have jurisdiction in narrow circumstances (when the crime in question is committed against another US military member or an offence while on duty) and for everything else Japan has jurisdiction.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@rainydayJune 14 10:58 am JST

Not to mention that nothing in the linked article said that the investigators were happy with his explanations. Ghosn just thinks he answered the questions well. He could be right, or the investigators may be thinking ... he's gone.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Fake charges were brought against Ghosn in the first place. It was all collusion! Emails that were released a few months back clearly show this. The Japanese legal system is a joke! People’s hatred ( jealousy ) when it comes to Ghosn is clouding their judgement. The Japanese executives just wanted to get rid of Ghosn and made up this entire fake crime! People against Ghosn who are defending the Japanese legal system will someday face similar situation and be locked up for doing nothing wrong…karma is a you know what!

4 ( +6 / -2 )

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