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Human rights panel: Japan was wrong to detain Carlos Ghosn; owes him compensation

163 Comments
By JAMEY KEATEN

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163 Comments
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Great! Name and shame.

47 ( +60 / -13 )

Hahahahahahaha

Detains Carlos because Nissan wants him gone, Tries to break him with excessive detention and interrogation, doesn’t monitor him on bail, gets called out by human rights activists.

The Tokyo prosecutor’s office is comedic gold.

55 ( +72 / -17 )

This story isn't Ghosn away anytime soon.

27 ( +41 / -14 )

The Japanese government denounced the report as a “totally unacceptable” viewpoint that will change nothing in the country's legal process.

How can the Japanese government possibly condone extracting a confession from a suspect using torture?

Japan has its infamous 99.9% conviction rate which is obviously not possible statistically.

The world denounces Japan, as Japan denounces the report...

55 ( +71 / -16 )

The Japanese government denounced the report as a “totally unacceptable” viewpoint that will change nothing in the country's legal process.

Sure they won't change. It is part of Japanese culture.

37 ( +49 / -12 )

A panel of human rights experts working with the United Nations said Monday that former Renault-Nissan boss Carlos Ghosn was wrongly detained.

A determination of whether detention is arbitrary is based on various criteria, including international norms of justice.

Japan's Foreign Ministry said in a statement that the government had applied “appropriate procedures” in the case.

It is so very sad that what Japan’s Foreign Ministry considers to be “appropriate” does not meet the U.N.’s “international norms of justice.”

33 ( +46 / -13 )

An ineresting snippet from the foreign ministry.

Japan's Foreign Ministry said in a statement that the government had applied “appropriate procedures” in the case, and it could not provide full information to the working group before a trial had begun. For that reason, the ministry added, it would be inappropriate for the working group to make a decision on the Ghosn case “based on limited information and biased allegations” from him and his team.

B.S.!!! The Japan Foreign Ministry had plenty of time to provide information to the group. The information requested (method of detention and interrogation hours) would not compromise the trial in any way.

“The opinion is totally unacceptable, and is not legally binding,” the ministry statement said. It also warned that the opinion could set a dangerous precedent, and “encourage those who would stand criminal trial to entertain the idea that flight can be justified and prevent the realization of justice and the proper functioning of the criminal justice system in each country.”

"Japan can by no means accept the opinion of the Working Group regarding the case of the defendant Carlos Ghosn," it added.

This sounds exactly like something that would come from China.

This report will not cause Japan to change but it at least sheds light on the barbaric system in place.

54 ( +65 / -11 )

Very interesting

22 ( +29 / -7 )

The Japanese government denounced the report as a “totally unacceptable” viewpoint that will change nothing in the country's legal process.

You can see the bureaucratic teeth-suckers hearing this report and digging in their heels as they say this. This report does not meet that critical level of shaming required for a Japanese bureaucracy to change its ways.

27 ( +39 / -12 )

"The Japanese government denounced the report as a “totally unacceptable” viewpoint that will change nothing in the country's legal process."

Now the GENEVA , UN human rights panel , has a published solid view of Japan's legal system insides, this is so liberating. Japan will never be viewed the same.

ref:

http://www.debito.org/japaneseonly.html

31 ( +41 / -10 )

Japan's justice is indeed infamous and a laughing stock throughout the world.

https://youtu.be/WYfHWsWJhtg

Unless there's domestic pressure from within Japan to change its detention laws and address its unrealistic 99.9% conviction rate nothing will change. Japan doesn't like foreigners telling them they're wrong.

40 ( +51 / -11 )

The legal system needs major changes

39 ( +42 / -3 )

I hope this latest shaming of japan is in the coming film. Japanese "justice" is on the rack...

18 ( +29 / -11 )

It is a great day for all those who regularly challenge the archaic and at times unfair practices in all aspects of the bureaucratic machine, in a country that too often likes to portrait itself as something it never is. The damage the 'Ghosn saga' has done to Japan is something the free world will not taking lightly and perhaps irreparable. The Japanese government would better held those responsible to account and start addressing issues on basic human rights, like equality and freedom, when it comes to the interactions with foreign nationals.

26 ( +37 / -11 )

https://www.ohchr.org/_layouts/15/WopiFrame.aspx?sourcedoc=/Documents/Issues/Detention/Opinions/Session88/A_HRC_WGAD_2020_59_Advance_Edited_Version.pdf&action=default&DefaultItemOpen=1

This is the link to the UN working group panel final opinion, complete with Mr Ghosn's legal team account and the Japanese government response.

10 ( +21 / -11 )

I'm just waiting for that other great J-speak term on issues, 'correct view' on the subject. Often pulled out in international disputes including the Takushima Islets, comfort women, most of the controversies involving WWII, and more, 'the correct view' is a common euphemism for 'see things our way or else.'

21 ( +31 / -10 )

Shame!!! SHAME!!! on Japan. And Japan wants to be UN security member???!!! NO CHANCE!!! NOT IN MILLION YEARS!!!! Fix your banana republic justice and your attitude to foreigners first!!!

28 ( +39 / -11 )

The U.N. human rights experts are concerned about a rich executive’s human rights but remain silent about millions of persecuted minorities such as Uighurs and Tibetans.

-17 ( +16 / -33 )

Well with China heading the human rights wing of the UN of course they'll bash Japan.

Stay out of trouble and don't break the laws in Japan. Problem solved.

-26 ( +16 / -42 )

Who cares what a foreign panel thinks. This is a deeply sensitive domestic issue.

-41 ( +13 / -54 )

what a burn. Japan wants UNESCO every day but anything else no, especially international human rights conventions

22 ( +31 / -9 )

Human rights panel: Japan was wrong to detain Carlos Ghosn; owes him compensation

Absolutely

The Japanese government denounced the report as a “totally unacceptable” viewpoint that will change nothing in the country's legal process

Yeah it will. The only way to change things here is to name and humiliate

19 ( +29 / -10 )

And here is the laughable part ~ The Japanese Government is currently trying to attract international finance professionals due to the fact that Japan really needs global people to help them to survive in the battle for profits. Laughable.

32 ( +42 / -10 )

When required to get a perspective, Japan becomes desperately incompetent: “we followed OUR process” - your process sucks pal - “ but we followed OUR Process!!!”

17 ( +27 / -10 )

Comedy gold, and all because Nissan enveigled the government into helping them block the Renault takeover.

22 ( +32 / -10 )

I'm no fan of Ghosn, but I'm absolutely no fan of Japanese prosecutors and their bullying and inhumane methods.

36 ( +43 / -7 )

Too bad this panel has no bearing on Japanese law whatsoever. As long as Ghosn does not defend himself, a default judgement will be entered against him. No problem if he's ok with that. But it serves as a basis for enforcement in other countries. Vote me down but it's the truth. Unless he plans on staying in Lebanon for the rest of his life, he should fight this case and clear his name. Not run and hide and let the opposition do whatever they want.

-21 ( +16 / -37 )

They were trying to torture a confession out of him, there was no other goal or reason to detain him for so long.

Saikawa walked free

Showcasing the double standard of why no one in the world should move to Japan.

That Japan owes Ghosen compensation, is a thing of beauty. All his bail money maybe?

The situation continues to get worse for Japan highlighting their IJA methods, while Ghosn has the last laugh.

31 ( +37 / -6 )

And they want more foreign businesses to open and operate in Japan!

25 ( +29 / -4 )

Keep going Japan, if your goal is to be viewed as a draconian leftover from the Imperial War Days.

26 ( +30 / -4 )

Here endeth the story. Unless Japan is going to prosecute Saikawa, then please no more, shut up and move on.

28 ( +30 / -2 )

I've refrained from weighing in on one side of this argument or the other. However, with this outside review of Ghosn's case, rather than the opinions of the JT armchair quarterbacks, I'm ready to weigh in.

I feel that outside reviews of Japanese legal decisions are in the best interest of Japan the country, though not necessarily the politicians that are running it. Japan is trying to build itself as a business hub. However, if they cannot guarantee the human rights of people coming here to do business, particularly when it comes to boardroom politics, they will find Japan is not a place where people choose to come for business.

After Olympus and the Woodford scandal, and now Nissan, the government, and the Ghosn scandal, Japan is showing itself to the international business community as NOT being a secure place in which to do business. At this time in which it's quickly becoming apparent that Hong Kong is too dangerous a place from which to do business with anyone other than China, there is a tremendous opportunity for Japan to scoop up that position. However, a legal system that can be used as a weapon by Japanese nationals against foreign nationals in resolving boardroom issues will prevent Japan from being able to take up that mantle.

As such, it's in Japan's best interest to put an end to this the weaponization of the legal system against foreign board members, and take measures to ensure it cannot arbitrarily happen again in the future, thereby creating an environment in which foreign nationals can confidently do business. This is just one step in making Japan an attractive place from which to do business.

23 ( +35 / -12 )

I know someone else said above but I'm just gonna say it again. "Name and shame."

Someone I respect once told me that if you want to change things/people in Japan the only way is to name and shame them. I thought he was mean but man, he was right. People here don't take criticism well. SPECIALLY when coming from gaikoku (人), many see it as an insult.

So yeah, name same shame them.

28 ( +29 / -1 )

This is NOT going to be published in the Japanese media

29 ( +34 / -5 )

what a burn. Japan wants UNESCO every day but anything else no, especially international human rights conventions

Good point. It reminds me of that story of when ghosn was arrested, the lebanese govt kept trying to contact the jgovt for information but their attempts remained unanswered. Then, once ghosn had fled the country for lebanon, they came crawling over to them, insisting they cooperate and hand him over. Keep ridiculing them and their practices that are unworthy of a first world nation.

33 ( +35 / -2 )

Japan will not compensate criminals, sooner or later the big fat rat will fall..

-42 ( +5 / -47 )

"specifically, violating numerous times his presumption of innocence, presenting him as guilty, orchestrating two of his arrests with the media...”

This is the basic problem for the Japanese system.

It clearly appears to operate under a presumption of guilt, rather than innocence.

Rather than angrily respond like the CCP would, I would have hoped the Japanese authorities would sit back, take a deep breath, and consider things thoughtfully.

22 ( +24 / -2 )

“The opinion is totally unacceptable, and is not legally binding,” the ministry statement said. It also warned that the opinion could set a dangerous precedent, and “encourage those who would stand criminal trial to entertain the idea that flight can be justified and prevent the realization of justice and the proper functioning of the criminal justice system in each country.”

Well said and may I also add:

The working group has said nothing about China or Police tactics in the US.

-33 ( +6 / -39 )

I have a feeling this Human rights panel will soon find itself on somebody's Enemy of the State list.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

It could affect, for example, the possible extradition of two Americans, Michael Taylor and his son Peter, whom Japanese prosecutors say helped the executive sneak out of Japan.

Probably not. If America doesn't send Talyors to Japan, America will be in violation of the extradition.

-32 ( +2 / -34 )

ref:

http://www.debito.org/japaneseonly.html

LOL, that is ref for a book and said nothing about the Ghosen case.

-31 ( +1 / -32 )

Yes, Lebanese clans... They have the world completely in their grip. In comparison, Mafia, N’dragheta , Chinese triads and Yakuza altogether are only a kindergarten birthday event. Look at France, German biggest cities, U.N. etc. for reference.... No one can mess with them, therefore Japan alone even more not. Pay silently triple of what they demand and hope they will forget and forgive anytime soon. lol

-35 ( +1 / -36 )

@Meiyouwenti

The U.N. human rights experts are concerned about a rich executive’s human rights but remain silent about millions of persecuted minorities such as Uighurs and Tibetans.

I understand your statement fully. Unfortunately China is embedded in the UN, WHO, etc. This should also be challenged as well. I worked with Tibetan refugees in the late 80s and early 90s in India and Nepal so this issue I know well. Every year the International Campaign for Tibet is invited to speak at the UN. Unfortunately no one listens.

I have nothing in common with Ghosn and I probably would not like him if we met. However, for me, as a foreign Permanent Resident of Japan this is significant. I follow the laws here, etc. but if I am ever accused of something I would prefer to have access to a lawyer during interrogation as well as reasonable questioning.

@Nihonview

The working group has said nothing about China or Police tactics in the US.

You are wrong. Please see link below

https://en.mercopress.com/2020/11/10/un-review-criticizes-us-police-violence-racism-and-separation-of-migrant-children-from-families

21 ( +23 / -2 )

A panel of human rights experts working with the United Nations said Monday that former Renault-Nissan boss Carlos Ghosn was wrongly detained in Japan and has urged “compensation” for him from the Japanese government. 

In its opinion published Monday, the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention found that Ghosn’s arrest in Japan in late 2018 and early 2019 was “arbitrary” and called on Japan’s government to “take the necessary steps to remedy the situation of Mr Ghosn without delay.” A determination of whether detention is arbitrary is based on various criteria, including international norms of justice.

I bet that when down like a bucket of vomit…….

The five-member working group, which is made up of independent experts, called on Japan to ensure a “full and independent investigation” of Ghosn’s detention, and asked the government “to take appropriate measures against those responsible for the violation of his rights.”

After this slap in the face you can bet few countries will extradite Carlos Ghosn, or cooperate.

This whole sorry saga was a Nissan boardroom coup that quickly deteriorated into political farce.

20 ( +22 / -2 )

Kelly has to be given a walk. Preferably, the charges should be dropped but can't see that happening.

19 ( +20 / -1 )

I can't even remember the last time any human rights groups had anything good to say about Japan. Whether it's the Ghosn case, or racial and other discrimination, or indefinite detention of asylum seekers, or horrid working conditions for workers from other poorer Asian countries, or child abuse. Japan does not like being compared to countries like China.

19 ( +21 / -2 )

However, with this outside review of Ghosn's case

But it wasn't a comprehensive outside review of Ghosn's case. The conclusions were reached on the assumption that everything Ghosn was alleging was true. The other side was not presented because the Japanese government didn't provide specific details while the case is still pending. The UN working group took the view that Japan should ignore it's own domestic laws and procedures in order to cooperate with their investigation, so the result is unsurprising.

If you read the full report, it's very carefully qualified with words such as: 'The source alleges...' and 'According to the source...' and 'In the absence of an alternative explanation from the Government...'. This was effectively a default judgement against a party that didn't participate fully in the proceedings.

You can read the report here:

https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Detention/Opinions/Session88/A_HRC_WGAD_2020_59_Advance_Edited_Version.pdf

-12 ( +4 / -16 )

" the ministry statement said. It also warned that the opinion could set a dangerous precedent, "

The British long ago put a nail in this japanese only coffin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4671687.stm

8 ( +9 / -1 )

The Japanese government denounced the report as a “totally unacceptable” viewpoint that will change nothing in the country's legal process.

There goes those pesky foreigners sticking their noses in Japanese business again.

15 ( +16 / -1 )

M3, Kudos for the report, I struggled to locate,  

The background information is the deal breaker and the facts undisputed……..

5. According to the source, Mr. Ghosn was arrested four times, each time after the expiry

of the 23-day limit for keeping a person in police custody in Japan. In this way, the authorities

were able to detain Mr. Ghosn continuously.

6. Each of the four arrests was followed by detention with the same characteristics.

According to the source, the detention infringed the rights and dignity of Mr. Ghosn and was

intended to force him to confess. The conditions of Mr. Ghosn’s detention included solitary

confinement, prohibition on Mr. Ghosn to leave his cell, the deprivation of exercise for

several consecutive days, constant light to disturb sleep, and the absence of heating in the

cell.

7. During each of his 23-day periods in police custody, Mr. Ghosn was not brought

before a judicial authority and he was unable to challenge his detention within this time frame.

According to the source, the prosecutor subjected Mr. Ghosn to daily interrogations in the

absence of his lawyer. The interrogation sessions were held several times a day, lasting on

average five hours, including on weekends and public holidays. The source alleges that the

prosecutor attempted to have Mr. Ghosn sign documents in Japanese that he did not

understand by threatening to continue his prolonged detention. Furthermore, Mr. Ghosn was

refused any family visits while in police custody.

8. In addition, the source states that, during his remand in pretrial detention, which

commenced on 11 January 2019, Mr. Ghosn could receive visits from his family members

only if they remained behind a glass screen and in the presence of a guard. The guard took

notes on the content of the conversations, thereby denying the possibility of confidential

discussions during family meetings. According to the source, Mr. Ghosn lost a significant

amount of weight while deprived of his liberty, as he was provided with food only

occasionally and subjected to poor detention conditions.

17 ( +20 / -3 )

A panel of human rights experts working with the United Nations said Monday that former Renault-Nissan boss Carlos Ghosn was wrongly detained in Japan

Although it may not be Legally Binding it could be enough to revoke Interpol's red alert on Mr and Mrs Ghosn allowing them to resume travel.

If Japan refuses to change it's hostage justice system it could have further issues on anybody it asks for to be extradited to Japan.

will change nothing in the country's legal process.

I wonder if this could have an effect on the Olympics, Human Rights Violations are heating up on issues in China for the 2022 winter olympics. With possible Boycotts. Although this is nothing compared to that however Japan's Government have said they will not stop doing it.

12 ( +14 / -2 )

We already know that nothing will change,they are too narrow minded,overly proud and stubborn for that,especially when such criticisms come from foreign institutions and media.

But at least finally all these events displayed their inhumanity and different ways of treat foreigners and their nationals like Saikawa to the world.

15 ( +17 / -2 )

Well said and may I also add:

The working group has said nothing about China or Police tactics in the US.

LOL...once again with the old worn out "lets try & divert focus onto other countries" tune...not very wisdomspeaking ,old chap :)

9 ( +13 / -4 )

Meanwhile, Mr. Hiroto Saikawa, Ghosn's immediate replacement as CEO of Nissan Japan (was eventually fired) and other Nissan board members and executives were found guilty of the same charges they hurled against Ghosn, but the authorities are not arresting any of them. Only Ghosn. Why? LOL.

22 ( +23 / -1 )

The whole sorry Carlos Ghosn saga, was followed by the discriminatory handling of foreign national’s status of residence over the COVID-19 re-entry procedure.

Our 57 UK employee’s taking part in UK-Japan exchange scheme, wouldn’t return after that debacle.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

"Opinion" ? This is mentioned so often in the article ..

NO, experts deliver an expertise, not an opinion. Despite wishes.

For the apologist. talking about the human rights of polar bears in north pole has nothing to do with the topic.

If you wanna make your point, you must provide facts related to the case.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Best news I've heard all week! It won't change their attitude but shows them that the whole world isn't as enamored of them and their practices as they'd like believe.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

Hey Japan, next time before complaining about other people house full of rubbish, please sweep yours first..with a broom!!

15 ( +16 / -1 )

@Nihonview

The working group has said nothing about China or Police tactics in the US.

Tokyo-Engr has already cited an example of the latter. Here's an example of the former:

GENEVA (Reuters) - A United Nations human rights panel said on Friday that it had received many credible reports that 1 million ethnic Uighurs in China are held in what resembles a “massive internment camp that is shrouded in secrecy.”

11 ( +12 / -1 )

With this latest development, the former Green Beret Michael Taylor and his son Peter cannot be extradited to face criminal proceedings in Japan.

Meanwhile, after the finding of the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention of OHCHR was announced, it looks as if Japan's justice system and the integrity of Nissan are now on trial instead of Carlos Ghosn and his two lionhearted rescuers.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Even now, 150 years after opening up, there is a huge disconnect between how law actually works as a thinly disguised instrument of constraint and the ideal, an impartial arbiter and safeguard against oppression. 

In his Introduction to Japanese Law (1976), Noda makes the point that those tasked with drafting the new Meiji laws, using firstly the Napoleonic Code (later, German models) as their template, “had to invent terms for concepts that were totally alien to Japanese thinking.” Another has made the point that if Western democracies relied as little on law as Japan does, they would be rocked by incessant civil commotion and probably witness a collapse of the authority structure. While conversely, if Japan were to use the law as it is used in the Western democracies, and as it is supposed to be used under the Japanese constitution, the present Japanese authority structure would collapse.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

For the individuals that keep saying that "he should have stayed and 'fight', instead of running away" You darn well know he had no chance. Stop being Hostage Justice apologists

14 ( +17 / -3 )

This is NOT going to be published in the Japanese media

It was published. Nothing on TV though. Comments on the story have a typical Daily Mail conservative idiot vibe about them. "China is worse!" Yes it is, but that is no excuse.

16 ( +17 / -1 )

It would seem that Japan has made a complete and utter punlic fool of itself, not just domestically, but internationally..

11 ( +14 / -3 )

The Ghosn case has some similarities with the ex president of Brazil.

In 2018, Lula, an ex-president of Brazil, was accused of corruption and was serving a 12-year sentence. In accordance with the Brazilian law he could not be a candidate in the presidential elections.

However in opposition to the Brazilian law, the recommendation of this "UN rights panel" was:

"The UN Human Rights Committee on Friday ruled that Brazil's jailed former leader Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva could not be disqualified from upcoming presidential elections because his legal appeals are still ongoing.

In a statement, the panel "requested Brazil take all necessary measures to ensure that Lula can enjoy and exercise his political rights while in prison, as [a] candidate in the 2018 presidential elections."

UN: Brazil's Lula can't be barred from presidential elections

A UN rights court has ruled Brazil's Lula da Silva should be allowed to run for president in October elections. The country's highest electoral court, however, may not see it the same way."

UN committee member Olivier de Frouville told French news agency AFP that Lula's lawyers had asked for urgent action on three issues: that he be immediately freed from jail, that he be granted access to the media and his political party, and that he be allowed to run in the election.

The panel rejected the first request but supported Lula on the two other issues."

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Japan will not compensate criminals, sooner or later the big fat rat will fall..

The "big fat rat" who incidentally has not had trail and therefore cannot be labeled as a criminal, seems to be rising quite well.

The rats appear to be Saikawa and Japan's prosecutors.

15 ( +17 / -2 )

Good! Japan sure as hell does not like a dose of their own medicine being Ghosted!

18 ( +19 / -1 )

We don't need a report to know that police procedures and the entire legal system needs a major overhaul to reflect a modern democratic country. But we also know, it won't happen.

12 ( +16 / -4 )

Ghosn should be able to travel anywhere he wants in the world, and any countries Foriegn Ministry who receives an arrest warrent from Japan should just throw it into the waste paper basket.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

I went to read it. It is not well-reasoned for the most part and does not use even available information to achieve a fair outcome.

First, it ignores the indisputable fact that Ghosn fled with the help of ex-US Special Forces. That automatically should shift the presumption towards that he was a high-risk criminal, a category for which no country will allow bail. Any act of compliance is arguably mere sham. If Ghosn wouldn't have deserved bail in most legal systems, then complaints that Ghosn didn't have a chance at bail did not affect his concrete substantive rights.

Second, it negligently fails to make any comparisons with actual practices or standards in other countries, which helps establish Realistic expectations. For example, it beefs over the "average five hour" interrogation, but fails to note that Russia's (one of very few countries to write it out clearly in statute) limit is eight per day, and AFAIK did not receive comments from the ECHR on this point. Germany doesn't allow lawyers in police interrogations and has passed through interrogations lasting over 24 hours. If I can find this stuff out, I find it grossly negligent that a "professional" group failed to do so.

Third, it butts into areas of criminal law that they clearly have no expertise in. Ghosn's alleged crimes spanned a number of years and types, not a one-off. How many crimes they can be amalgated into is clearly a subject for national jurisprudence, for which this group would have no expertise in. Prima facie, it seems absurd that you can commit 8 complex crimes over 8 years and expect the same tariff (23 days) as someone who conducted one simple theft. I'll additionally point out that this "maneuvering" was even only necessary because Japan frees people fairly quickly. The Russians will easily allow a two month pre-trial for one count (ECHR chose not to object, BTW).

Fourth, it clearly ignores the reality of documents: "The source notes that the two bail orders issued that same day stated that neither the risk of flight nor the risk of destruction of evidence adduced by the prosecution was present." This is an manifest untruth if taken completely literally, since no criminal has zero risk of flight or destruction unless he's completely disabled. If it is indeed written that way, it is clearly better understood as a shorthand for the risks being insufficient to warrant further detention, rather than absent.

A very poor document.

-23 ( +4 / -27 )

Folks lets not forget the vast majority affected by Japans HOSTAGE ""justice system"" are JAPANESE!!!

Japan why dont you IMPROVE this for your OWN PEOPLE........oh sorry I forgot you love to treat them with utter contempt & you dont want to change that now do you!!!

For SHAME Japan, for SHAME!!!

14 ( +17 / -3 )

Japan’s justice system is not good, but Ghosn is obviously guilty and deserved all he got.

-19 ( +6 / -25 )

"The Japanese government denounced the report as a “totally unacceptable” viewpoint that will change nothing in the country's legal process." You knew that was coming... and that change isn't.

15 ( +17 / -2 )

@expat Today 12:35 pm JST

"The Japanese government denounced the report as a “totally unacceptable” viewpoint that will change nothing in the country's legal process." You knew that was coming... and that change isn't.

It might have had a bit more of a fighting chance had it actually waited for Japan's countersubmission (there are real reasons why details of ongoing trials aren't publicized), thus respecting procedural equality, and was not published at the worst moment.

At the very least, these are not new problems (thus urgency is not a factor) and Ghosn being an escaper is hardly a poster child to illustrate the benefits of allowing bail. There is, however, a court process running at this moment concerning two Special Forces people. Though they would never get bail (even more than Ghosn) thus rendering most of the alleged problems moot, this opinion with more authority than quality will clearly be an influence.

-15 ( +3 / -18 )

@Kazuaki Shimazaki

Would you mind to shorten your comments? ...there's too much info condensed, lots of it I have to ignore for ease-of-reading reasons.

First

130 days in solitary confinement with no bail is cruel.

Second

I honestly CANNOT FIND your sources. Can't comment on that.

Third

If you commit multiple crimes. Why would you get arrested multiple times?!

Fourth

The bail becomes an humanitarian priority after 130 days of torture.

12 ( +15 / -3 )

This the U.N. recognizing the rights of a millionaire, but denies acknowledging Taiwan as a lawful country...

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

If you have no contact with the version of justice Japan style it's fine, but when you have to deal for whatever reason with its quirks, not such a happy outcome. In most cases that actually make it to court a guilty plea will result in a pathetic sentance. Try to fight for your innocence game over. I am in fear of Japanese police, should they detain me (as a foreigner) it's months before I get released after writing an apology letter. For doing nothing wrong. It's not Justice just incompetence.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

 it negligently fails to make any comparisons with actual practices or standards in other countries

Such an idiotic argument. "He's treating humans like trash too, so we should be able to as well"

Japan has serious issues with its justice system, not the worst in the world, but that does not mean its ok.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/24/carlos-ghosn-un-tells-japan-treatment-of-ex-nissan-boss-fundamentally-unfair

The ruling appears to be as much about the practice of "preventative detention" (aka "hostage justice") as about Ghosn. Sadly, the Japanese government will once again dig in its heels, because it has never in history admitted that it was in error - and particularly not when being held to an international standard it intreprets as meddling in its internal affairs. In such cases, Japan can be just as intransigent as China can.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

This the U.N. recognizing the rights of a millionaire, but denies acknowledging Taiwan as a lawful country...

When recognising human rights, I don't think that the UN are concerned with the bank accounts of individuals. They are concerned with Rights.

It is worth noting however that if a foriegner is ever arrested in Japan the police will ask questions such as "Do you own property in Japan", They are sizing up how wealthy the foreigner is, and how much the Hostage legal system can get out of this.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

trial him, imprison him. And his wife and son. Case over.

japanese legal system is totally separate issue that also needs investigation.

separate.

-9 ( +5 / -14 )

@kurisupisu Japan has its infamous 99.9% conviction rate which is obviously not possible statistically.

That is for cases which actually go to trial. Around 55-65% of cases do not go to trial, depending on the data source; mostly those where there is doubt about getting a conviction, and some with confessions and suitable remorse.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

There is something i dont like about a "justice" system that tortures a person with days and night of interogations until the person confesses.

11 ( +13 / -2 )

Not being able to meet his wife for more than 1 year was unnecessary cruelty.

5 ( +12 / -7 )

trial him, imprison him. And his wife and son. Case over.

Thank you commenter. You have just proved that in Japan a trail means guilty. (Normally trails are to determine guilty or not guilty, if not guilty released).

6 ( +10 / -4 )

Turns out Ghosn's assessments for Japan were indeed correct. He had zero chance for justice here and was right to flee.

Perhaps time to pack up ?

3 ( +8 / -5 )

@bokudaToday 12:54 pm JST

I honestly CANNOT FIND your sources. Can't comment on that.

I used to include them complete with quoted text, but JapanToday's moderators want me to shorten. For Russia, check Article 187 of their Criminal Procedure Code. For Germany, I refer you to the book Principles of German Criminal Procedure by Michael Bohlander, further referencing Section 163a(4) of their procedure code.

If you commit multiple crimes. Why would you get arrested multiple times?!

If I falsify a report once a year (as Ghosn is accused of) for eight years, how many falsifications have I made - one or eight?

Now, to be fair, there is a common convention where if for example you made a string of thefts at say once per day until you were caught, instead of charging you for X offences, you get charged once with aggravation for all the times you did it.

On the other hand, if you steal once per year, the applicability of this convention is clearly debatable at best and should be left to national jurisprudence rather than summarily decided on the claim of the Accuser (optimistically called "Source" in document).

"He's treating humans like trash too, so we should be able to as well"

While that's a valid argument, it's also true that Criminal Procedure is not a pretty business and there are realistic limits as to how well suspects can be treated. Referencing other countries provides an indication of where that realistic limit is.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

Japan’s justice system is not good, but Ghosn is obviously guilty and deserved all he got.

Thank you again 2nd commenter. Ghosn is "obviously" guilty, dispite no trail. This proves that some people have been in Japan too long. Stockholm Syndrome.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

Not being able to meet his wife for more than 1 year was unnecessary cruelty.

She is alleged to have stolen $7m and funneled it through shell companies in tax havens, as an accomplice. That may be a reason?

-5 ( +7 / -12 )

well, human rights, children rights... 2020 and Japan still don't know what's going on.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

She is alleged to have stolen $7m and funneled it through shell companies in tax havens, as an accomplice. That may be a reason?

How does someone not working at the company with no access to computers and accounts steal anything.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

This is NOT going to be published in the Japanese media

Yet, it is:

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/f83e05867e29482ee1907c6671220d4522ba1975

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Not being able to meet his wife for more than 1 year was unnecessary cruelty.

She is alleged to have stolen $7m and funneled it through shell companies in tax havens, as an accomplice. That may be a reason?

Operative word - "Alledged".

8 ( +11 / -3 )

@ Kazuaki ShimazakiToday 01:45 pm JST

Russia, check Article 187 of their Criminal Procedure Code

Russia's "actual practices or standards" include sleep depravation, dictated confessions, beatings and electric shocks. Do you really want to be compared with them?!

Principles of German Criminal Procedure by Michael Bohlander

That's was valid on 1913, now is long gone. The regime that is followed since 2015 is  “United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners” - The Nelson Mandela Rules

instead of charging you for X offences, you get charged once with aggravation for all the times you did it.

There! You're answering yourself.

Police wont make X arrests, they'll charge the subject for X crimes in 1 trial.

"He's treating humans like trash too, so we should be able to as well"

You are supposed to be better than the criminals. Abuse and torture should be avoided.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

mind set:

whatever

happens,

happens.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

The harm done to Japan by the 'Ghosn saga' is something that the free world won't take kindly and maybe irreparably. In terms of relations with foreign citizens, the Japanese government will better keep those responsible to account and begin discussing concerns related to universal human rights, such as dignity and independence.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Japan’s justice system is not good, but Ghosn is obviously guilty and deserved all he got.

Obviously guilty, when was the trial that found him guilty?

Thinking rationally can be at times difficult.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

@bokudaToday 02:16 pm JST

Russia's "actual practices or standards"

Notice that I compared it to their statute, thus whether Russia exceeds the statute in practice is irrelevant.

That's was valid on 1913, now is long gone.

Bohlander's book's copyright is 2012. If you want to say that the Germans have changed their law significantly since then, I suggest you provide proof. You might also quote specific portions of the SMR that help your case.

Police wont make X arrests, they'll charge the subject for X crimes in 1 trial.

Here, I was trying to be fair - don't take more from it than what it's worth. I also point out why this case is not the same as those where this is done, and there is no strong theoretical reason to insist it must be done that way. It is a convention at best in scenarios not too similar to this one.

You are supposed to be better than the criminals. Abuse and torture should be avoided.

With criminals that are high risk, regardless of whether keeping them behind bars is torture, the need to guarantee the judicial process and the presence of the accused takes priority. Perhaps you can name some solid examples of manifestly high risk offenders nevertheless being allowed bail.

-19 ( +3 / -22 )

OK. But this is a bit pathetic. Millions of people around the world have their human rights seriously violated, while human rights panel is busy with compensating some millionaire who had a little inconvenience.

-14 ( +5 / -19 )

The harm done to Japan by the 'Ghosn saga' is something that the free world won't take kindly and maybe irreparably. In terms of relations with foreign citizens, the Japanese government will better keep those responsible to account and begin discussing concerns related to universal human rights, such as dignity and independence.

The Ghosn saga has done the free world a big favor. It has exposed Japan's legal system for what is ie. Disgusting.

Until Japan addresses this, then Japan is not really in a position to lecture other countries regarding human rights, dignity and independence.

12 ( +14 / -2 )

Shame on Japanese justice system.

With Japanese culture, only acceptance of Suga and/or the Emperor would trigger change.

Shame the Emperor does not read it officially.

If he was of any use, it is right now.

We all know Suga is a very long teeth-sucker, no way he will change zt his age and with his CV.

11 ( +16 / -5 )

Shame on the system here, and they know it! Now of course it's all "We refuse to accept this!" and as this continues they'll just get all defiant and say, "Foreigners can't speak for Japan!" while demanding Japan be recognized on the international stage and share in big decisions. But Japan has never been big on human rights.

14 ( +17 / -3 )

I am afraid, the mainstream media will put a nationalist twist to this report and make it look like the report unfairly and unjustly with little knowledge and understanding of the Japanese judicial system, and the general public will believe what the media is saying, Change will never happen if the media interprets it as a "They Against Us" and sides with the government. Which they would do for fear of being viewed as unpatriotic.

14 ( +17 / -3 )

" Change will never happen if the media interprets it as a "They Against Us" and sides with the government. Which they would do for fear of being viewed as unpatriotic."'

and: https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2006-05/29/content_602335.htm

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Ghosn. Hiding in a country without an extradition treaty. If he travels to France, where he is under investigation, will be indicted for similar offenses.

An independent panel. That is amusing. Relying on testimony and statement from Ghosn's attorneys.

His actions are criminal and documented. Nor are they restricted to his employ in Japan. He used similar methods to skim money when residing in France.

That there is some weird admiration for a scoundrel such as Ghosn reflects either cognitive dissonance or a campaign of successful propaganda. It is delusional to see Ghosn as anything other than a corrupt & profiteering criminal. To dub him some manner of folk hero is incredibly dumb.

-4 ( +5 / -9 )

Wait, how about human rights situation in Lebanon? No problems there, or nobody will pay for it?

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

Going, going, Ghosn.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

So Ghosn should fly to Japan to go get his compensation. lol

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

@Kazuaki Shimazaki

You can nitpick the arguments to prove your point, doesn't mean you're right. Tokyo prosecutors followed their procedures, but their procedure violated human rights and that's the working group's findings.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

He and Kelly did fly to Japan, under faulse pretentious and got ambushed arrested, seriously you think that ploy is going to work again?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Interesting!!!

A panel of human rights experts working with the United Nations

Why don't we found you during illegal war by USA here and there???

I think this report has no meaning now and ever. Just waste of news paper space.

-11 ( +4 / -15 )

look, whatever one personal opinion of Carlos Ghosn.

Undoubtedly, Carlos Ghosn is a corporate hyena.

The very reason Carlos Ghosn policy to slash and burn, without fear or favor skill set, was seemingly required to be implemented in the first place.

That doesn't necessitate the requirement for presumption of Innocence. essentially the burden of proof.

The background information, indicates a clear disrespect for the law, for prosecution to demonstrate the defendant’s guilt, to prove each element of the alleged crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

Carlos Ghosn has been subjected to a toxic arbitrary pivotal function/enforcement of ad-hoc law , without any recourse to Jurisprudence.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

Why are we deauthorizing the U.N. instead of evaluating the reported conclusions?

Can we STAY ON TOPIC, please?

Reminder: the subject is the Wrongdoing in Ghosn Detention.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

The Japanese Government must accept full responsibility for the  background information provided.

The failure to respect a requirement for presumption of Innocence.

A Judicial system that has failed to provide any convincing argument beyond a reasonable doubt, essentially a defendant is guilty of each element of the crime in order to convict.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Human rights panel: Japan was wrong to detain Carlos Ghosn; owes him compensation.

Japan probably owes billions of yen to a lot of people, foriegn and Japanese for wrongful detention over the years.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

As a joke, some Japanese say Ghosn should have stayed in Japan, considering the Covid-19 and social unrest in Lebanon. The prison of Japan may be safer than his luxury house in Lebanon. Anyway, I hope he will be always happy because he was a excellent chairman who had revived Nissan for Japan.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Yes that's true and it's “totally unacceptable”

This must not change nothing in the legal against Carlos Ghosn.

If he found guilty then must be punished

1 ( +3 / -2 )

In the Covid-19 era, concept of human rights fluctuate and fragile. I often think of the below.

The countries whose average length of lives are short --- human life value is relatively low.

The countries whose average length of lives are long --- human life value is relatively high.

Considering the Covid-19 death tolls of each country, human life values (or rights to live) of some countries may be relatively low.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

As a joke, some Japanese say Ghosn should have stayed in Japan, considering the Covid-19 and social unrest in Lebanon. The prison of Japan may be safer than his luxury house in Lebanon. Anyway, I hope he will be always happy because he was a excellent chairman who had revived Nissan for Japan.

I think that Ghosn will always be happy because he has exposed Japan's disgusting prison and legal system. That is probably his greatest achievement as chairman of Nissan.

He will be quite safe in Lebanon, and won't get arrested on trumped up charges and detained without trail indefinatly. Lebanon does have rule of law unlike Japan.

But above all, he can no longer be isolated, which is what Japan's detention centers are designed to do.

Look forward to buying his book when it is published.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

The five-member working group, which is made up of independent experts, called on Japan to ensure a “full and independent investigation” of Ghosn’s detention

An independent investigation instead of just denying the wrongdoings would give peace of mind to people that is loosing hope on the Japanese Justice System.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Incidentally kokontozaii t would be ironic if those mystery Japanese who have rented the apartment overlooking Ghosn luxary apartment contracted Convid-19.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

This sounds exactly like something that would come from China.

This report will not cause Japan to change but it at least sheds light on the barbaric system in place.

Because Japanese ruling elites and business elites are now pretty much in the sphere of Chinese Communists and Vietnamese Communists.

Keidaren keeps begging Japan to open more for Chinese tourists and Chinese/Vietnamese workers at the costs of Japanese economy. Abe and Suga don't even mention or dare to punish China or Vietnam for human rights violation. In fact, Japan now even extends its cooperation with Chinese and Vietnamese in many areas.

LDP cronies are actually learning at the tutelage of the Communists. Just look at the comment section, an insane amount of Japanese nationalists defending whatever Japan does. This phenomenon wasn't present until after 2008, when Japan furthered its tie with China and Vietnam. The web brigades are originally the ideas from authoritarian regimes, and Japan now has one to defend whatever Japan does even if it is wrong.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

So Ghosn should fly to Japan to go get his compensation. lol

Doubtful. But as South Korea has shown (Mitsunishi Heavy Industries) Japanese assets can always be seized abroad.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@itsonlyrocknroll

M3, Kudos for the report, I struggled to locate, 

The background information is the deal breaker and the facts undisputed……..

I think many (if not most) of those background facts are hotly contested, especially the ones about Carlos being threatened and malnourished. At the very least there should be a strong presumption that detention was not arbitrary given that prosecutors turned out to be 100% correct about Carlos being a massive flight risk.

Again, the problem with drawing any conclusions from the report is this:

In the present case, the Government has not responded substantively to many of the source’s allegations, instead citing legislation that contains guarantees of procedural fairness.

The result being that all of Ghosn's claims had to be accepted at face value. None were examined critically since the Japanese government couldn't supply information in ongoing cases. However, just looking at Ghosn's claims, there are a few which stand out as patently false. For example, on pages 4 and 5 he claims that appeals, including his Supreme Court appeal, were dismissed without reasons being given. This is false, since we have the reasons. Or the claim on page 8 that Ghosn was unable to petition the courts to challenge his detention. This is false. Every detainee is allowed to petition the courts to challenge their detention (even if very few are successful). Or the claim on Page 5 where he says that the judge's decision to decline a change in bail conditions to allow him to meet with his wife was 'not subject to appeal'. This is clearly not true since every decision of this type is open to infinite appeals. Carlos was obviously laying it on a bit thick.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

...and Kasumigaseki’s answer is...?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

strong presumption that detention was not arbitrary

Sure! Explain it to Hari Nada, Hiroto Saikawa, Toshiaki Ohnuma, and all the rest of "innocent" people in Nissan.

Supreme Court appeal, were dismissed without reasons being given

All documentation is denied until trial date is decided.

Carlos was gone before he ever got a trial date or access to any evidence/documents.

Lebanon demanded evidence to justify the deportation of Ghosn, but none was given yet.

The long detention, solitary confinement, hours of interrogation, wife banned from visits, etc... looks pretty harsh, it alone to sustain the torture allegations.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Call it even Japan!! You lost! You can't cage a man like that!!

2 ( +5 / -3 )

@Bokuda

All documentation is denied until trial date is decided.

Carlos was gone before he ever got a trial date or access to any evidence/documents.

It's the norm in Japan and all European countries which operate under the civil law system. You don't need to see the documents months beforehand because you aren't expected to show up at trial with a pre-prepared case ready for presentation. If the prosecutor drops a massive load of documents immediately before or during the trial, you simple request time to review them and to draft a response. It's not inherently unfair.

Lebanon demanded evidence to justify the deportation of Ghosn, but none was given yet.

The Japanese government cannot simply disclose records and personal data to a foreign government unless there is a legal mechanism allowing this, like the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters treaty with the United States (which led to Ghosn and Kelly being charged by the Securities and Exchange Commission in the US) . Lebanon and Japan have no such treaty.

The long detention, solitary confinement, hours of interrogation, wife banned from visits, etc... looks pretty harsh, it alone to sustain the torture allegations.

How long does the average complex international corporate fraud case take to investigate and bring to trial in the United States or UK?

The reason Carlos wasn't allowed to have his wife visit is because she is a potential suspect and/or witness. The claim is that a company she owned called 'Beauty Yachts' received a portion of funds paid into Carlos' shell company 'Good Faith Investments'.

Sure! Explain it to Hari Nada, Hiroto Saikawa, Toshiaki Ohnuma, and all the rest of "innocent" people in Nissan.

If you think these people should be prosecuted, I'm open to hearing your argument.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

I'm no fan of Ghosn no fan of Human rights panels no fan of the Japanese Government

4 ( +5 / -1 )

As an individual who actually experienced being incarcerated in Japan, all I need say is that their system is tyrannical and ruthlessly unforgiving. You are basically from the start assumed guilty, stripped of all your rights and denied counsel. It forever changed my perception of the Japanese people.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

It's the norm in Japan and all European countries which operate under the civil law system. You don't need to see the documents

It is absolutely NOT the norm, you gotta share all your evidence since day one. No disclosing of strong evidence for the arrest attempts against the Habeas Corpus.

The Japanese government cannot simply disclose records and personal data to a foreign government

Yes, YOU CAN. That's the reason you got embassy and legal representation in other countries, to solve the paperwork and exchange of information.

How long does the average complex international corporate fraud case take to investigate

Whatever it takes to investigate is irrelevant. You don't make any arrest until investigation has finished and all evidence gathered.

If you think these people should be prosecuted...

We all know, it's evident from the hearings on Kelly's case that Ohnuma and Saikawa are the perpetrators. Why aren't they convicted?

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

We are not discussing here wether or not Mr Ghosn committed a crime, what we are trying to do, is to highlight the malpractices that the Japanese Foreign office fails to even contemplate, let alone address. We are not specifically asking for Mr Ghosn not to be arrested the day after release, only to extend his detention prior to a trial. We are asking for any individual to be spared that. Not allowing a person to see his/her lawyers, not allowing him/her to talk privately to members of his legal team. Not setting a trial date, despite four arrests, the last of which was for an alleged wrongdoing into which prosecutors had looked in the past and found no merit, only for it to be reexamined and used as a 'weapon' years later. We are not asking for Mr Ghosn to be acquainted, we are just asking for a fair trial, for him or anyone else, one that in the EU or the USA would come as a given. Personally, after 10 years in Japan, on the basis of personal experience and most recently through the handling of the permanent foreign citizens right to return to Japan first and their need to obtain a pre-flight test later, I can without doubts look at Japan as being no much better than places like China or Vietnam, both authoritarian states, when it comes to human rights for non Japanese nationals. I have decide to leave as soon as practicable, because I no longer feel safe here. Yes, I can leave my phone on a table in a cafe and be sure to find it again, but how about if for some reason I get arrested? For an instance, following a road accident? Well, I stopped driving and working with my driving license for that very reason: I do not trust the Japanese policing practices nor Japan judicial system fairness. When it comes to that, Japan is just as good as China or Vietnam or Belarus and not many more countries I can find to list here. I sincerely feel sorry for the Japanese people who do not have a choice, nor look to get one.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

I wonder how much he paid for these 'experts'. This guy is corrupt through and through

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

PERFECTLY correct. It was definitely a violation of human rights.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

So Ghosn should fly to Japan to go get his compensation. lol

Nissan are sueing Ghosn for compensation.

So, Japanese and Nissan officials should fly to Lebanon to get their compensation lol.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

M3, I understand your points

It is essential to clearly have a thorough insight into the criminal arrest/detention especially interrogation…

Here is an overview…

https://www.t-nakamura-law.com/en/qa#Arrest

There is no dispute over the manner in which Ghosn interrogation was handled.

Mr. Ghosn was arrested four times, each time after the expiry of the 23-day limit for keeping a person in police custody in Japan. In this way, the authorities were able to detain Mr. Ghosn continuously.

Each of the four arrests was followed by detention with the same characteristics. According to the source, the detention infringed the rights and dignity of Mr. Ghosn and was intended to force him to confess.

The conditions of Mr. Ghosn’s detention included solitary confinement, prohibition on Mr. Ghosn to leave his cell, the deprivation of exercise for several consecutive days, constant light to disturb sleep, and the absence of heating in the cell.

All the points above are on record, undisputed and published as such on numerous media outlets.

Which explains, in fact cuts to heart/reasoning why the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention found that Ghosn’s arrest in Japan in late 2018 and early 2019 was “arbitrary”.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@itsonlyrocknroll

Sorry but nothing you've described is inherently arbitrary. Holding a suspect without charge for the maximum legally allowed period is not arbitrary when there are legitimate grounds to do so. There is no magic sweet spot between 48 hours and 23 days where detention suddenly becomes arbitrary under international law. It depends entirely on the circumstances. Arresting a suspect multiple times when new crimes are uncovered or confirmed is not arbitrary. Waiting until the last possible moment to confirm that it's appropriate to proceed with charges in all 4 arrests is not arbitrary. Housing an extremely high-profile detainee in his own cell (solitary confinement) is not arbitrary. Questioning a detainee for long periods in order to unravel a complex fraud case is not arbitrary. Maintaining a constant low level light to prevent suicide attempts in a society where this is common is not arbitrary. You need to show more. You need to show why these measures were not reasonably justified. You can't just point to a procedure or time limit in Japan that differs from other legal systems and label it arbitrary. The only reason the panel sided with Ghosn is because no justifications were provided by Japan. They make this absolutely clear:

The Government has not explained the reasons for the refusal of bail on these occasions. In the absence of such an explanation, the Working Group cannot accept the argument that Mr. Ghosn’s pretrial detention was properly constituted in accordance with article 9 (3) of the Covenant.

If Japan had participated, I suspect the opinion would have criticised aspects of the Japanese system and pointed out how it could facilitate arbitrary detention, but in Ghosn's particular case it was not arbitrary.

@bokuda

It is absolutely NOT the norm, you gotta share all your evidence since day one. No disclosing of strong evidence for the arrest attempts against the Habeas Corpus.

It is not the norm to disclose evidence months before trail while evidence is still being gathered. Otherwise suspects would be able to destroy evidence, intimidate witnesses etc. As far as providing justification for the initial arrest, that was done.

Yes, YOU CAN. That's the reason you got embassy and legal representation in other countries, to solve the paperwork and exchange of information.

No. All government agencies including MOFA are bound by the same set of data protection laws. In any case, there are good reasons for not sharing any information with Lebanon given how closely Ghosn is connected with the Lebanese government.

Whatever it takes to investigate is irrelevant. You don't make any arrest until investigation has finished and all evidence gathered.

The standard for arrest is reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed. That was clearly the case with Ghosn. If we were to adopt your standard, police would not be able to arrest people fleeing from a bank after a robbery had been reported.

We all know, it's evident from the hearings on Kelly's case that Ohnuma and Saikawa are the perpetrators. Why aren't they convicted?

Perpetrators of what exactly? Name the crime.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

M3, your interpretation, and context, appears to reject the independent panel of human rights experts working with the United Nations/the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention.

It is important also to acknowledge the published report stated that detention is arbitrary, based on various criteria, including international norms of justice.

The arbitrary/capricious nature of Ghosn’s detention is based on prosecutor’s discretion rather than a fair application of the law, which periodically is accompanied with press briefing against the defendant without recourse to jurisprudence or without a clear adequate determining principle.

I am defining arbitrary from my experience with Financial Instruments Intermediary Service, the objective manner that avoids unsubstantiated subjective statements.

United Nations Human Rights Council working group report submits Ghosn 108-day incarceration violated his rights.

Remember these allegations of financial misconduct never sprung to light until Ghosn pursued a policy of full merger of Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi, a policy the Government of Japan found inconceivable.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

@M3M3M3Today 08:56 am JST

Just replaced the word arbitrary for the word torture, and sounds awful.

Holding a suspect without charge for the maximum legally allowed period is not torture when there are legitimate grounds to do so. Arresting a suspect multiple times when new crimes are uncovered or confirmed is not torture. Waiting until the last possible moment to confirm that it's appropriate to proceed with charges in all 4 arrests is not torture. Housing an extremely high-profile detainee in his own cell (solitary confinement) is not torture. Questioning a detainee for long periods in order to unravel a complex fraud case is not torture. Maintaining a constant low level light to prevent suicide attempts in a society where this is common is not torture.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Two of the charges, Ghosn underreporting his salary and aggravated breach of trust, are open to scrutiny as Renault corporate salary auditing procedure is rooted in Corporate Governance and statutory safeguards compliance.

Then, suddenly, out of the blue an unnamed whistleblower crawls out of the woodwork.

The tricky and subterfuge, in setting a trap to arrest Ghosn when landing on Japan soil, so to be captive of Japan judicial and legal system.

M3, my friend it isn't cricket.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

@itsonlyrocknroll

M3, your interpretation, and context, appears to reject the independent panel of human rights experts working with the United Nations/the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention.

I accept their opinion, but I also recognise how it was reached and its limitations. Any opinion where the claims being made by one party are not challenged is of limited value.

It is important also to acknowledge the published report stated that detention is arbitrary, based on various criteria, including international norms of justice.

United Nations Human Rights Council working group report submits Ghosn 108-day incarceration violated his rights.

When the panel uses the words 'international norms', they aren't using those words colloquially to mean 'things that many other countries do'. International norms are set by treaties, and the treaties in question (ICCPR, UDHR) don't explicitly prohibit anything Ghosn was subjected to. The treaties give states a wide degree of latitude to adopt practices that are reasonable within their own culture and society. There are no explicitly prescribed limits on the amount of time a suspect can be held without charge, or how many times they can be charged, or whether they can be questioned or not, or how to determine whether or not someone poses a flight risk.

To support a claim of arbitrary detention under the treaties you need to show that there were no reasonable grounds to arrest Ghosn, or that prosecutors and judges knew Ghosn was innocent but held him anyway, or that they were acting for some improper purpose, or that they were retaliating against Ghosn, or that they knew he posed no flight risk but were trying to keep him locked up. But given the actual facts of the case it's not at all clear that it was unreasonable to keep someone like Ghosn detained when he clearly posed a massive flight risk.

The arbitrary/capricious nature of Ghosn’s detention is based on prosecutor’s discretion rather than a fair application of the law, which periodically is accompanied with press briefing against the defendant without recourse to jurisprudence or without a clear adequate determining principle.

Every prosecutor exercises the discretion which the law provides. Whether that discretion was exercised unfairly, capriciously or arbitrarily is open to debate but no clear case has been presented in my opinion. There is reasonable suspicion that Ghosn committed various financial crimes and as someone holding multiple passports and substantial wealth, he posed a flight risk. The press briefings are unfortunate but not necessarily illegal. There was tremendous public interest in the case and alot of rumors and disinformation in the media.

Remember these allegations of financial misconduct never sprung to light until Ghosn pursued a policy of full merger of Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi, a policy the Government of Japan found inconceivable.

Sure, but how is this relevant to determining whether judicial authorities detained Ghosn arbitrarily? If you can prove that prosecutors, the courts, and the government were all conspiring together to hold Ghosn in prison, that would surely amount to arbitrary detention, but even Ghosn himself does not go that far.

Even if Nissan and the Ministry of Trade fabricated all the evidence against Carlos and set him up, it does not follow that Ghosn's detention was arbitrary. Prosecutors would still have reasonable grounds to detain him even if they were misled by fabricated evidence.

Is Japan's justice system good or bad? Are western legal systems good or bad? Should Asian or African societies adopt European or American practices? In my view it's impossible to answer any of these questions without identifying the underlying values and objectives of a society. Some legal systems value personal liberty, some value community and order, some want to increase state power, some want to diminish it. Who is to say that any of them are right or wrong? The fact that values and cultures differ so greatly from one society to another suggests to me that any attempt to internationalise standards of justice is never going to lead to satisfactory outcomes.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

People here are all complaining about Ghosn's arbitrary detention in Japan, but what about Julian Assange, who has been kept in solitary confinement in the UK for over one year without trial simply for reporting war crimes, or Chelsea Manning who was imprisoned for one year and fined $256,000 in the U.S. for refusing to incriminate a reporter.

As for paying Ghosn compensation, he is a criminal on the run from the law. If he wants compensation, he should first prove his innocence in a court of law.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

I wonder how much he paid for these 'experts'. This guy is corrupt through and through

I wonder how much you were paid to write this.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

To all those writing to challenge the 'Group' opinion, this is not a group of ordinary lawyers casually talking about a case. The 'Working group on arbitrary detention' is an officially appointed body at the UN. For them to come out with such a damning 'opinion' of the Japanese judicial system, a case to answer must have been brought to its attention. For M3 to say the claims are made by one party, my mate, the Japanese government refused to engage in a constructive and objective conversation, do you think we are stupid? Just stop writing no sense and write to your MP instead, to ask him to change this dated and unfair system, but not before they have all changed their attitude towards foreign nationals first! You are also wrong when you say there are no specific norms anywhere, on the length of time an individual can be held without charges. Perhaps in Japan, but I can guarantee you that in the EU or USA, those limits are certainly in place, sometimes, exceptionally but officially, disregarded, mainly for terrorism suspects. It is an old practice, originally thought to safeguard the minority in a democratic system. You are clearly here not to examine the facts, but trying to argue the Group decision. This is not a court, it is a board where we exchange opinion and it seems to me that you are one of the very few arguing the outcome, together with Mr Motegi. Now if I assume most of us here to have grown up in a healthy and stable democracy, then I can see why you fail to acknowledge the Group findings. You were not socialized in a mature democracy as it was originally intended in Greece first and the USA later. Look at your school system too. Japan is at best a farcical attempt to fit into a world of order where human rights are upheld irrespective of societal values. These rights are not negotiable nor interpretable on the basis of one's values. These rights are given to any individual by a natural order, above societal structures. A natural order for which all beings are equal at births. Honestly M3, I feel sorry that such an intellect as yours, is wasted in a place and a system that still cannot come to terms with the fact that if you don't want to remain isolated you must, I mean must, respect the other !

0 ( +3 / -3 )

A problem with Americans is that they often compare an idealized, move-like version of their own legal systems to the realities of other legal systems. For a bit of balance:

https://thechinacollection.org/comparing-us-chinese-acquittal-rates-apples-oranges/

A discussion, from two American professionals that are neither apologists for China or Japan, talking about the American legal system.

If you think that a system that relies heavily on threatening defendants with overblown charges is necessarily superior to what Japan has, then there are clearly subjective values going on.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@Kazuaki Shimazaki Today 05:26 pm JST

The Japanese system is based on confessions, as 93% of trials are build over a confession.

That's very archaic. Medieval, if I might say.

Confessions are not used as evidence in any modern justice system.

Here is the main/golden evidence the Japanese trials.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Carlos-Ghosn is the bad example of so-called talent, who used his company money for personal interest, because he thought he has the right???

So shameful for other talent people.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

M3, there is much to absorb within the document/report, the finding point to a number of references to protocols and procedures especially the working group methodology in reaching a conclusion.

It is beneficial to read the report in its entirety

It is a scathing, and thorough denunciation of Japans Justice system.

 "Repeated arrest of Mr. Ghosn appears to be an abuse of process intended to ensure that he remained in custody, an extrajudicial abuse of process that can have no legal basis under international law.”

The U.N. has referred the case to the U.N.'s rapporteur on torture and degrading treatment, insist/demanding a full independent public inquiry. And have concluded reparations are justified, “in accordance with international law.”

The Government of Japan and Prosecutors have underestimated Ghosn resolve and resilience from the moment of his arrest.

Ghosn, has in many respects followed a game play/agenda that will ultimately allow him to freely return to Europe, possibly France.

No EU member state will consider extradition….

The European Court of Human Right will see to that. If the case ever reached the Chamber judgment.

The report, opinion eye wincingly withering.

The contextual summary states:

 The violation of the international norms relating to the right of a fair trial, established in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and in the relevant international instruments accepted by the States concerned, is of such gravity as to give the deprivation of liberty an arbitrary character.

The Government of japan is a signatory of/to Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@itsonlyrocknrollToday 09:57 am JST

What makes you think M3 hadn't read it?

Regarding the point you selected, Mr. Ghosn was deprived of liberty for about 130 days in total - that is, about 4 months. The ECHR will have to consider the practice of the states under its jurisdiction, some of which it has affirmed.

http://www.moj.go.jp/KYOUSEI/SYOGU/setsumei01-02.pdf (Check out Slide 15/17)

Substantively speaking, there is little to no difference between 1x180 days and 6x30, is there? If anything, in offering at least more chances for the judiciary to terminate the deprival Japan may even have offered more due process than France or Germany.

As an aside, the UN report's biases extend beyond its findings of fact and even into diction. Consider the accusation hidden within lines like "*These obligations were disproportionate considering the absence of a risk of flight and destruction of evidence, as acknowledged by the Tokyo Court itself when ordering the release of Mr. Ghosn on bail.*"

The writer sounds like he has prejudged the Japanese courts as non-neutral. Prosecutors may "admit" or "acknowledge" versions favorable to the defense. The court "determines" or "finds" or "assesses".

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Ghosn was so true about prosecution in Japan and I 100% agree with his statements.

I have had the "pleasure" to get bothered from the Japanese prosecution and thanks god have been able to get out without a scar due to diplomatic protection. These people obviously live on another planet and their "confession" methods and 99.9999% solving of crimes is one of the most horrible and unreal things that exist in that island. I feel good that Ghosn bought his freedom, although he is a 1%, most people cant afford what he was able to do. No price can be put on a persons freedom while kept and forced in medieval ways to admit smth that is already scheduled by Japanese bureaucrats.

Indeed from anyone who has been living in Japan you hear the same stories, and only the Japanese deny the truth that everyone sees. How insecure the Japanese are you see when they leave that island, and realize that there is freedom and notions of logic and that no one can force you against your will, just because. How dirty are the games between NISAN and Ghosn, very few people know, but throwing in action one of the most "Spanish inquisition" prosecutions for the benefit of a company who would have gone bankrupt long time ago, this is nasty, but not unheard of.

Where this country is headed with these records of Human Rights, a very dark past (almost all the countries in Asia still keep in their mind the scars of the WWII ) and an antiquated way of treating the non-Japanese and its own citizens, it is very hard to tell. The big shadow of China is now much bigger, and the small inviting sun of the doomed Olympics they are using as an excuse to make the World feel good about them, is not fetching what they might have aimed.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

This is a question of humane treatment. We only shine light on it now because of Carlos. It is time Japan modernize the justice system here. From Capital punishment which will always come into play in Japan. To being held, detained questioned, and finally tried. Japan must modernize the system and I think they know it too.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

What makes you think M3 hadn't read it?

Absolutely no idea? It never crossed my mind if M3 had not given full attention to the report.  

I hadn't given the report full attention until subjecting the document to bed time reading.

Kazuaki Shimazaki, the ECHR will only adjudicate on an argument/criterion, both at the level of its own proceedings, and in evaluating how human rights have been adjudicated within an EU member state.

I have a suspicion/belief that Ghosn legal advisory/administrative teams, responsible for requesting this UN report are positioning a means for Ghosn to return to France and eventually peruse a career.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@itsonlyrocknroll

The problem with relying on the working group's findings is that they don't provide solutions to the unique problems posed by complex international corporate fraud cases which can take months or years to unravel. Cases where all the documents need to be carefully translated. Where the cooperation of foreign governments and banks is needed to obtain records. Where the suspects can potentially destroy evidence with the push of a button if they are released from custody too early.

If we were to press the working group to balance their human rights concerns with the effective administration of justice, they would probably tell us that's not their job. They are only paid to find and criticise cases of arbitrary detention and, unsurprisingly, they seem to find them everywhere and often.

My question to you (and others) would be, what is your ideal justice system? What is the maximum length of time a suspect should be held without charge? What is the maximum they should be held pre-trial? How many hours should they be questioned for? How many meals and calories is sufficient? How many lumens should the nightlights be? Or should we instead follow the lead of the Americans and stop prosecuting corporate fraud entirely due to the cost and complexity of pursuing these cases? Maybe Japan should just allow wealthy suspects to buy 'get out of jail free' cards through financial settlements, like the $1 Million Ghosn paid to the SEC to avoid federal prison? Is that a better, fairer, more humane justice system?

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2019-183

0 ( +4 / -4 )

@itsonlyrocknroll

UN report are positioning a means for Ghosn to return to France and eventually peruse a career.

Ghosn's career prospects seem very limited. As part of his settlement with the SEC, he has been banned from being a director at any US based company or subsidiary for the next 10 years.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

M3, in all honestly is there any ideal global system of Justice?

My only brush with the law here japan was for speeding, both officers were polite and let me off with a warning and a lecture. I listened humbly, bowed, apologized for wasting there time, and kept my mouth shut.

My local Koban is credit to there uniform. Visiting my home when I am away, even assisting me when my frit and vegetable garden was destroyed by a storm.

I take no pleasure in moaning and criticizing the Japan legal system.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@itsonlyrocknroll

M3, in all honestly is there any ideal global system of Justice?

I think the answer is no. Despite our best efforts to implement a global human rights regime, every society maintains a very different conception of fairness, justice and basic rights.

I take no pleasure in moaning and criticizing the Japan legal system.

You certainly have every right to criticise it (and your opinion of the system ultimately matters much more than that of a foreign like myself). One thing I value most about Japan is that it's a wonderful place to live from the perspective of crime and safety. It's hard to deny that a slightly harsher justice system plays a major part in that. We see a similar pattern in most other Asian societies.

One last thing I would also point out is one major difference between Japan and other systems which probably goes some way to explaining why concerns over the length of detention is less of a priority here.

If you are ultimately found not guilty in Japan, you are automatically entitled by law to recieve a set amount of compensation for every day you spent in custody from the moment of your arrest. It's only a small amount equivalent to what a minimum wage worker might earn after paying for food and shelter, but it's not nothing.

Compare that with America, the UK, Australia, and other systems where if you are held for months in pre-trial detention and then found not guilty, you are entitled to nothing. You will simply be told that there was reasonable suspicion for the police to arrest you, and sufficient evidence to pursue charges against you. Sorry.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

From the start, I had the feeling that there was more to this Ghosn matter than what was being reported in the media. I still feel that way. Will we ever know the truth of the matter?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Compare that with America, the UK, Australia, and other systems where if you are held for months in pre-trial detention and then found not guilty

I would prefer America, UK or Australia.

I would have family, lawyer, cellmates, humanity and protection all around me.

Ghosn was lucky, some people spend up to 4 years in detention in Japan. And then, when you're broken you'll have to handle a trial for years with only a 0.01% chance of winning.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

As for paying Ghosn compensation, he is a criminal on the run from the law. If he wants compensation, he should first prove his innocence in a court of law.

My goodness, do some people still not get it. Under the Japanese constitution a person is innocent until proven guilty.

The Japenese prosecutors and judges (of whom approved his detention) have abused their own constitution.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

Eventually, It will all be blamed upon Abe... not the Japanese Legal "Beaurocrouptic" system.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

There are no true legal rights under the Japanese system of incarceration, so why is anybody trying to defend it other than nationalistic protectionism. It's just wrong to any critical thinking and fair person.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

They'll never admit to being wrong.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Ghosn the criminals who got payed 10 times the work he has done, UN isn't credible anymore, Japan today should ignore what imperialist UN says.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

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