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Junior high school students filmed up skirts of female classmates, sold images

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The Board of Education in Ikoma City, Nara Prefecture, says that several 8th grade junior high school boys are suspected of voyeuristically filming up the skirts of their female classmates.

According to the board, the municipal junior high school, which has not been named, stated it had launched an investigation into the alleged criminal offense, Sankei Shimbun reported. The board said the voyeuristic filming started last November and involves at least six or seven male students.

The boys used their smartphones or a pen equipped with a small camera to covertly film up the skirts of at least 20 female classmates without their knowledge on several occasions at school. The students shared the images on the free messaging app Line in exchange for between 300 and 1,000 yen.

The incidents came to light on Feb 7 after several students who were not involved in the filming reported it to the school. That same day, the board of education was contacted by the school and notified police.

The school said Tuesday that counselors have been made available to help the girls and that it will instruct all students on the proper usage of smartphones at school.

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The school said Tuesday that counselors have been made available to help the girls. In addition lawyers for the families will be made available to counsel the girls families on what charges they should be bringing against these boys and the school.

The school will also instruct all the students on moral issues and criminal issues related to improper use of a smart phone!

I fixed it for you!

The girls here are victims and they are not the one's who need any instructions here, these boys need to be arrested and placed in juvenile detention at the minimum. An object lesson to everyone else!

that it will instruct all students on the proper usage of smartphones at school.

Damn well better make sure the teachers themselves know what they are doing too!

3 ( +18 / -15 )

Boys and their toys. Their victims would be 13-14 years old and most of them were probably wearing runner pants as specified by the school uniform. The boy’s actions are despicable, but the real creeps are the ones who bought the videos. Hopefully, the cops will be chasing them up too.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

8th grade is not high school.

-9 ( +5 / -14 )

perversion and disrespect for others rights begins at a young age in Japan

1 ( +12 / -11 )

@Burning Bush

8th grade in the USA is the last year of Junior High School. So it is possible that these kids are 2nd year Junior High school students in Japan. Because 9th to 12th is high school in America and 10th to 12th is high school in Japan.

will instruct all students on the proper usage of smartphones at school

Smart phones are not a new phenomenon. It is not new technology. Furthermore, these kids know how to acquire and use camera pens. There is no instruction needed at all.

9 ( +10 / -1 )

They sure start young over there.

Future train chikans.

6 ( +13 / -7 )

The prefecture BoE needs to step in here and set a very strict punishment of the individuals involved. This is criminal behaviour so the police have to be called in too.

There has to be zero tolerance. Schools need to be safe spaces.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

"...several 8th grade junior high school boys"

The students are in the second year of junior high school (二年生 Ninensei). There is no 8th grade in Japanese schools, and this incident has no connection with America.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

Yubaru, kids are not punished for violent crimes in Japan and you think they will be punished for sophomoric goofing around? not going to happen.

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

Their victims would be 13-14 years old and most of them were probably wearing runner pants as specified by the school uniform. 

Dont assume it, as there is no specification in JHS other than the uniform!

8th grade is not high school.

Reread the title of the article! "JUNIOR high school students"!

Yubaru, kids are not punished for violent crimes in Japan and you think they will be punished for sophomoric goofing around? not going to happen.

On this, and from personal experience, I know you are 100% wrong! Just because you dont read about it in the media, BECAUSE they are minors, does not mean it does not happen! IT does and more often than you would like to think.

I have been involved with JHS kids who were sent to JV detention here for attempted murder! Never written about in the press either!

0 ( +6 / -6 )

The boys used their smartphones or a pen equipped with a small camera to covertly film up the skirts of at least 20 female classmates without their knowledge on several occasions at school. The students shared the images on the free messaging app Line in exchange for between 300 and 1,000 yen.

Entrepreneurship at its worst.

They sure start young over there.

Yep.

Future train chikans.

Probably.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Furthermore, these kids know how to acquire and use camera pens. There is no instruction needed at all.

Man, I didn't even know these things existed.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Their victims would be 13-14 years old and most of them were probably wearing runner pants as specified by the school uniform. 

@Yubaru - Don't assume it, as there is no specification in JHS other than the uniform

I'm not assuming anything. That ticks states, classmates and year 8 junior high school students. Furthermore, I have worked in over twenty junior/senior high schools and they all stipulate junior high school girls wear runners under their tunics. It is you who is assuming I don’t know what I am talking about.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

This is news why? Just kids being kids. But why are they allowed to have the phones at school in the first place? I can understand the teachers and staff, but what is so important to call at school? Blame the parents who created the opportunity in the first place.

-9 ( +8 / -17 )

Love and marriage go together like a horse and carriage is the other side of the coin of sex and money. "Entrepreneurship at its worst", indeed, but it's a combo that has always existed and thrives especially in modern hyper-sexed societies where everything has a price. Still, their laddish behavior cannot be condoned. Given the age of the perps, punishment must be meted out carefully and proportionately to fit the prank rather than the crime and, most importantly, the future education of these jerks ought not be jeopardized by their juvenile pecadilloes.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Correction: they are peccadilloes! (no worse than)

1 ( +3 / -2 )

“This is news why? Just kids being kids.”

Wow. This is why women don’t trust most men to do the right thing.

6 ( +14 / -8 )

These kids are lucky they live in Japan. Had it been North America or Europe, they would be brought up on child porn charges as well as their buyers.

8 ( +13 / -5 )

the real questions are; where this demand for such pictures came from? how did those school boys came to know of it? who bought the pictures or promised to pay for more pictures?

yes, punishing those kids seems to be a solution but, more will rise if not there are more already undiscovered.

to end this problem, they must cut the demand for those pictures

0 ( +0 / -0 )

In this day and age, with free internet porn, why would anyone actually pay for this stuff?

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Boys will be boys! It just been taken to the next level cause of technology.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

I'm not assuming anything. That ticks states, classmates and year 8 junior high school students. Furthermore, I have worked in over twenty junior/senior high schools and they all stipulate junior high school girls wear runners under their tunics. It is you who is assuming I don’t know what I am talking about.

Good for you! (Clap clap clap clap) You are not the only one who has worked in JHS and HS, and I will share with you that there is NO stipulation like that EVERYWHERE in Japan. Maybe just where you may have worked!

Dont assume that everywhere here is the same and then extrapolate your generalizations to cover the entire country!

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Really, the best thing to do here is to strip the boys and put those photos all over the school. Since these are maybe 14 year olds, I don't think they should suffer permanent consequences for a value judgment error, but it does have to be pointed out in a way they would never forget. But we are not allowed to do any punishment that denigrates dignity these days, so...

-14 ( +2 / -16 )

Who on earth would pay money for this kind of lame nonsense?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Indeed boys will be boys.

You find millions of such pictures on Internet.

Guess what, men are interested in sex and kids learn and do mistakes.

It's just the fact of selling that I find really wrong behaviour.

Funny thing to imagine is changing the word "without" by "with"... their knowledge and then you may realize world is still spining.

@tmarie

Please don't think kids are men and that men are kids (only a small part does...).

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

Would you guys think it was just boys being boys if that was your daughter or sister who had their upskirt photos sold on the Internet, possibly to active or potential sexual predators? Yes, you might be able to find pics on the internet, but the people who bought these pics probably know the school and can possibly figure out the identity of these girls.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

If my girl got harmed by said "sexual predators", then the culpability is on said predators. If nothing happens well then the damage is minimal.

-11 ( +2 / -13 )

rgcivilian1Today  09:21 am JST

This is news why? Just kids being kids. 

Are you for real? Clearly you don't have any children to make such a statement! It's this kind of attitude that makes boys like this think that they are untouchable and that continues on into their adult lives as they become chikan or worse!

But if we really want to go by the 'Kids being kids'. What if my girls would kicked the teeth out of any boy who films/violate them (they've been raised to defend themselves). Would you still hold the same attitude then?

8 ( +11 / -3 )

rgcivilian1 Today  09:21 am JST

This is news why? Just kids being kids. But why are they allowed to have the phones at school in the first place? I can understand the teachers an, but what is so important to call at school? Blame the parents who created the opportunity in the first place.

This is how boys learn that there won’t be consequences for sexual harassment and assault, and grow up to be men who don’t respect women’s bodily integrity.

This is how rapists and abusers are created.

This is why teaching boys about consent from an early age is important - such as now, before they get the idea that sexually exploring women is acceptable.

8 ( +13 / -5 )

Jonathan PrinToday  11:18 am JST

Indeed boys will be boys.

Sorry, I just want to clarify. “Boys will be boys” is usually used to mean that the referenced behaviour is to be expected from boys. As that is the case, are you saying that we should expect boys to sexually exploit and sexually harass women? Do you believe this behaviour is inevitable, and as such, doesn’t merit a strong response?

If that is the case, then I’d have to ask you why you haven’t taken into consideration how enabling and condoning sexually exploitative and harassing behaviour effects boys’ overall attitudes towards women, and causes them to believe there are no consequences for treating women badly.

I’d also have to point out that you’re sacrificing women’s security, sexual autonomy, and bodily integrity in the process.

In other words, aren’t you worried that these boys will grow up to be sexual predators, abusers, or rapists? And aren’t you worried about the trauma and harm done to the girls?

You find millions of such pictures on Internet.

How does that make this act acceptable? I’m confused as to why you’d bring this up, considering that this behaviour is normally thought of as sexually explorative and is condemned, not to mention illegal.

Guess what, men are interested in sex and kids learn and do mistakes.

I’m sorry, but does this mean you think boys/men being horny is a reason to allow sexual exploitation, assault, and harassment?

It's just the fact of selling that I find really wrong behaviour.

Thus makes me worry. If a man doesn’t think it’s wrong to sexually exploit women for their own personal pleasure, while ignoring the harm done to women, then I’d say that women are not safe with that man.

Funny thing to imagine is changing the word "without" by "with"... their knowledge and then you may realize world is still spining.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. It’s clear that the girls did not consent. I’m not sure what point you think this makes.

5 ( +11 / -6 )

If my girl got harmed by said "sexual predators", then the culpability is on said predators. If nothing happens well then the damage is minimal.

The girls attending the same school will now have to wonder if their boys is being posted online without their consent. Do you actually believe that is minimal damage? Culpability is on the predators but it should also be on those who are making comments like "boys will be boys" because it's that attitude that creates boys who believe women are less than equal and turn into abusers. "Boys will be boys" is a statement that says so much about the person who is making it. Thankfully those rarely understand what it says.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Weird. You see way more at the local pool anyways.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@girl_in_tokyoToday 01:54 pm JST

This is how boys learn that there won’t be consequences for sexual harassment and assault, and grow up to be men who don’t respect women’s bodily integrity.

Considering that they never even touched the girls, how "integrity" was compromised is objectively difficult to comprehend.

“Boys will be boys” is usually used to mean that the referenced behaviour is to be expected from boys.

Not all, but certainly a percentage. I will point out that there is a significant gap between taking an upskirt photo and a groper, and from there a significant gap to rape. Japan may have more gropers by proportion than anywhere else in the world, but it is pretty low on rape. I'm sure here's where the appeal to the unreported cases comes in, but they exist everywhere and the real proportion is anyone's guess. My procedure is to standardize on the reported statistics and be done with it.

I'm not sure whether feminists have thought of the opposite idea. First, basically you can't teach respect with punishment. Inaction perhaps, fear perhaps, resentment probably, but respect can actually be damaged.

Fundamentally, even to a boy having pictures taken of private parts is embarrassing. On the other hand, that's about as far as it goes. He does not expect to get PTSD, and while he would probably like some kind of payback on the perpetrator and deter him from a repeat offense he probably would hesitate from permanent damage even if it is within his power to inflict such.

How do you think such a person reacts to advocacy of inflicting permanent consequences? First, it makes the girls effectively a privileged group, a sure source of resentment. Do you remember that making patricide a qualified offense was deemed unconstitutional?

Second, when the justification comes in because girls get PTSD over this kind of thing, they seem ... weak. Because here's the objective reality - if I can take a punch and you can't, objectively you are weaker than me. It is very hard to respect weak people.

Demanding harsh punishment isn't a good way to foster "respect".

-10 ( +7 / -17 )

Its the parents that are to blame giving their kids cellphones. Cellphone zombie's that I see every day. Mum pushing the pushchair or bike playing on her cellphone and the kid in the pushchair or bike is on the cellphone too. Parents buy and pay for the cellphone. Why? Can kids not live without it? Parents 100% to blame. Zombie's....

2 ( +3 / -1 )

They would see a lot more on any summer beach. Reckless behaviour by the 13 year old boys. Probably having puberty changes. The school should inform the whole school of the wrong doings and why it should not happen. The post says "criminal" but is that so?

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Would you guys think it was just boys being boys if that was your daughter or sister who had their upskirt photos sold on the Internet, possibly to active or potential sexual predators? Yes, you might be able to find pics on the internet, but the people who bought these pics probably know the school and can possibly figure out the identity of these girls.

Not sure how said predator will figure out the identity of the girls - short of looking up their skirts to compare underwear. It's a bit of an over-reaction.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

the real questions are; where this demand for such pictures came from? how did those school boys came to know of it? who bought the pictures or promised to pay for more pictures?

I supect the article is implying that the boys sold, or tried to sell, the photos to their classmates - one of whom grassed them up.

Yes, horny young middle school students going through puberty are notorious (according to a friend who worked in one). A stern lecture from the cops coupled with a year's worth of lavatory cleaning should clear their heads.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

have them wear skirts let girls film under them and post all over

9 ( +10 / -1 )

round up the usual suspects, and let the speculation run rampant...

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

They're entrepreneurs!

What's so good about panchira

1 ( +1 / -0 )

All the commenters are born in their 30s or something? Common, don't you remember such time in your history as a boy where 'girl' thing is so alien and boys were so curious coz they always get a head start in growth cycle? Selling them was little weird. but sharing is caring (no offense to any gender, but that how greedy we all are, don't try to be saints here )!!!

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

Budding entrepreneurs in the porn industry obviously! Who said Japanese don’t have an entrepreneurial spirit.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

The students shared the images on the free messaging app Line in exchange for between 300 and 1,000 yen.

Meanwhile the conbini clerk making 1,000 yen / hour is paying taxes on that.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@Kazuaki Shimazaki

Considering that they never even touched the girls, how "integrity" was compromised is objectively difficult to comprehend.

How about if you were having sex with your wife on the weekend and you noticed a pervert at the window taking photos? Would you think "That's okay, he's not touching me." ??

6 ( +7 / -1 )

have them wear skirts let girls film under them and post all over

The boys might enjoy that. I’m pretty sure I would!

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

it will instruct all students on the proper usage of smartphones at school.

How about not bringing phones to school and if seen or random bag search, are confiscated. Parents would have to come and pay ¥1500 to get back for every offence (or scaled 1st offence ¥1500, 2nd ¥3000, etc).

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Macv:

have [the boys involved] wear skirts and let the girls film under them and post all over.

Best punishment that fits the crime. How best to teach the golden rule than by actually doing it?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

If some girls didn't mind, does that mean no harm no foul

Did anybody check?

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Certainly Enterprising yet shameful. I wouldn't know where to start to sell pictures, yet young Kids know how to both Market & Sell them ? I hope that they are forced to use their skills to good use, and hopefully to their benefit in later life having learnt their Lesson early in life.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

have them wear skirts let girls film under them and post all over

Put them in a room with the at least twenty girls' fathers more like it.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

kaminokaze Today  06:28 pm JST

All the commenters are born in their 30s or something? Common, don't you remember such time in your history as a boy where 'girl' thing is so alien and boys were so curious coz they always get a head start in growth cycle? Selling them was little weird. but sharing is caring (no offense to any gender, but that how greedy we all are, don't try to be saints here )!!!

What I remember from high school is fighting boys off me, including boys who tried to grab my breasts, and boys who tried to sneak into the girls’ locker room to peek at us. As a result, I spent a lot of time worried, scared, and angry. No matter what I said, no one took us seriously enough snd the boys’ behaviour continued unabated.

That made it hard to trust men, and made me realize just how much more unfair and how much harder the world is when you are female.

You really should consider how the boys’ actions harmed the girls, and have more empathy for them. It will make you a better person and a better man.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

zichiToday  03:03 pm JST

They would see a lot more on any summer beach. Reckless behaviour by the 13 year old boys. Probably having puberty changes. The school should inform the whole school of the wrong doings and why it should not happen. The post says "criminal" but is that so?

Sexual exploration of a minor is, rightfully so, a criminal offence in many countries. As someone else said, they’re lucky to be in Japan where sexual harassment and assault aren’t taken as seriously as other crimes are.

They are old enough to know what consent is, and they’re old to enough to know what bodily integrity is, even if they don’t have that vocabulary and haven’t learned to apply it in this context.

That means they knew on some level what they did was wrong, but they did it anyway. As that is the case, why are so many people here advocating for a less harsh punishment, or even making a joke of it?

This would be the ideal opportunity to directly and explicitly let them know this type of behaviour won’t be tolerated, and an opportunity to teach them empathy towards women - that women are people, too, not sex objects that can be used and exploited.

So again, I ask, why all the jokes? It’s not amusing in the slightest from the girls’ point of view, and if this behaviour isn’t nipped in the bus while they’re young and impressionable, what type of attitude towards women and what behaviours will it lead to?

4 ( +7 / -3 )

They are old enough to know what consent is, and they’re old to enough to know what bodily integrity is, even if they don’t have that vocabulary and haven’t learned to apply it in this context.

Really? Old enough to know what consent is, but not to actually give it?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Kazuaki ShimazakiToday  02:38 pm JST

Considering that they never even touched the girls, how "integrity" was compromised is objectively difficult to comprehend.

Bodily integrity means the right of the individual to have control over what happens to their body. It’s a fundamental human right to have your personal boundaries respected. And yes, that includes who is allowed to see your body unclothed and take pictures of it.

If a man can’t understand the concept of women having the right to control what happens to her own body, then I’d say that man is a danger to women.

objectively you are weaker than me. It is very hard to respect weak people.

I’m ignoring the rest of your post because it’s not worth my time to reply to. This however, stands out.

It’s psychopathic to feel disrespect towards people who are weaker than you, and then attempt to use that to justify violence towards them.

This is pretty scary stuff.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

These boys are 8th grade/13 years.

In Japan, it is ruled that those who shall be subject to criminal procedure are 14 years of age or older. The minimum age at which a person shall be subject to detention during the process of investigation is also fourteen.

So they can't be charged with a criminal offense.

But yes they should be told that their actions were unacceptable. Made to face the girls and apologise to them.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Girlintokyo:

I'm sure most of us agree that this is wrong. Some are saying the punishment should be more reciprocal. For example, back in the day instead of arresting a child for smoking, the parents would force them to smoke a whole pack until they puked. The kids that take pix up skirts should be reciprocated in many opinions (they should wear skirt and be photoed). Jails, IMHO, should be reserved for kidnappers (those who jail) and murderers (awaiting appeal or death sentence). Rpe is a bit trickier for some. If we sentence them the same way a murderer is, it entices them to just go all the way and kill the victim. Perhaps rpists should be rped.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

No one suggests yet that phones should be treated like alcohol and tobacco (must 18+ to own or use without parental supervision)?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Posting photos online of this type, I think would actually require a model agreement. The money received and compensation should be paid to the victims.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

There has to be a restorative aspect to the response with these young perpetrators. People might mistake that for "being lenient." It is not. It means they should have to do more to understand and work towards righting the wrong they did. People don't really change their moral selves for the better through punishment alone. They may behave better but even that won't lead to a deep or lasting improvement in society. Restorative approaches aim to do more.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Bugle Boy of Company BToday 09:58 pm JST

They are old enough to know what consent is, and they’re old to enough to know what bodily integrity is, even if they don’t have that vocabulary and haven’t learned to apply it in this context.

Really? Old enough to know what consent is, but not to actually give it?

To clarify, they know that what they did was wrong because they are old enough to be aware of social norms around bodily integrity and to know that it is wrong to do something to a person without their permission.

However, it is likely they have not been taught this lesson specifically in regard to sexual situations and don't likely have the necessary language to discuss it.

Everyone: please note I have not advocated for a specific punishment here. What I would like to see come from this is pretty simple:

1) That the school take this type of sexual harassment seriously and enact policies to deal with it.

2) That the boys be made to understand the full gravity of what they have done and how it will effect the girls.

3) Take this as an opportunity to teach about sexual consent to the entire student body.

4) That the action taken by the school and the parents be sufficient to make the boys understand that this behavior is not acceptable and won't be tolerated.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Because here's the objective reality - if I can take a punch and you can't, objectively you are weaker than me. It is very hard to respect weak people.

And in this, you show yourself as an objectively weak individual. Strength does not come from the ability to take a punch, or to deliver one of your own. I have and can deliver both greater than probably most commentators on this thread.

A strong individual still respects others. I respect the old woman who I can pick up with one arm. I respect the child who is just entering into this world.

Respect is not a matter of strength. You're just talking about fear. You FEAR others, so you try to portray yourself as strong to hide your weakness. That has nothing to do with respect.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Because 9th to 12th is high school in America and 10th to 12th is high school in Japan.

Not everywhere. Many places, 10-12 are high school in the USA.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

But we are not allowed to do any punishment that denigrates dignity these days, so...

Is that supposed to be a bad thing ?

Please don't think kids are men and that men are kids (only a small part does...).

Since it was most likely adult men which throw "the boy will be boy", I can understood someone could have trouble trusting adult men.

Not sure how said predator will figure out the identity of the girls

As nothing in the article said that they did not join a face picture or the name of the victim and that the customer were not fellow student, it is something people could be worried about.

but it is pretty low on rape. I'm sure here's where the appeal to the unreported cases comes in, but they exist everywhere and the real proportion is anyone's guess.

Did you sleep during the previous news about rape in Japan ? Because the way, you phrase it you seems to assume even if underestimated that is still low.

Fundamentally, even to a boy having pictures taken of private parts is embarrassing. On the other hand, that's about as far as it goes.

So when did it happen to you ? How many picture were sold ? To whom ?

Let me guess it never happened to you.

As the one I am now, if that kind of ... happened to me, I would most likely be able to brush it off. I am not even sure it could cost me my job.

Does the same apply to teenagers ? I do not think so. Be them boys or girls. Knowing people can pop up anytime anywhere making comment about your private is not something teenagers are expected to deal with (did you sleep during psychology 101?) . And if news come out, they did not even bother protecting anonymity of the victims : Do you think university/job interviewer look highly of people linked to porn business (even as victim) ?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

School uniform policy. Allow female students to wear trousers.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

Did the boys actually write the names of the girls and the corresponding up-skirt picture? Is that how they were able to charge more for one than another?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@girl_in_tokyo

do you thing they will listen if we advice them to not to do it? thats the age they take risks and challenges. I know as a girl that would have been scary. I would have raised my voice against it. truly gruesome there is no argument here. but that boys being boys generations into generations. Good luck with your 'advice them' rally!

I am sure like hell that they would listen.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@girl_in_tokyo Feb. 12 10:02 pm JST

And boundaries are not violated just because someone took a photo. There is, by analogy, a right in Japan to have control over what "happens" to their building, the 管理権. If someone takes photos of your building from the exterior, it is not a violation of 管理権.

Further, this is quite a stretch of the word "integrity". For what it's worth, Wikipedia defines same as " the inviolability of the physical body" and as examples of acts that may violate such are "sexual assault, unwanted pregnancy, domestic abuse, and limited access to contraception", Photographs, not so much.

There's also "Being able to move freely from place to place; being able to be secure against violent assault, including sexual assault ... having opportunities for sexual satisfaction and for choice in matters of reproduction"

None of these seem violated. One does not have to insist there is no problem at all to note this definition just cannot fit.

It’s psychopathic to feel disrespect towards people who are weaker than you, and then attempt to use that to justify violence towards them.

If photographs are violence, then violence has been stretched to the point of meaninglessness. I can see it was a tactical error to use a physical strength analogy, since we are trained so hard to denigrate the value of physical strength. Nevertheless, this same indoctrination shows that it is human nature to give physical strength some points, and if you don't believe me, you may refer to David Varnes' post. He berates me, but meanwhile his picture is of him lifting weights (presumably, it is not meant to make him look bad), and he has subtly bragged about his strength with "I have and can deliver both greater than probably most commentators on this thread" and "I can pick up with one arm".

It is not to my advantage to be in a world where physical strength is overesteemed, because I have none. For that matter right now I'm suffering from a bout of athritis in my neck, legs and back! I don't think I'm going to be winning any "punch resistance contests" against anything more than a child. But I'm too much of a realist to not acknowledge it exists, that there is a difference.

But really, I think you do understand that this is an analogy for the main topic, which is mental weakness rather than physical weakness. If we don't use a definition of respect that's so unconditional an infant can qualify, do you find it hard to respect "immature" people?

The common core of maturity is the idea of proportionality. When we say someone's response was "immature", we usually refer to a response we feel was excessive (disproportionate) to the offense at hand. And when we consider whether something is proportional, we inevitably start by using our own values. Which is where we return to the topic at hand. On a male scalar, this kind of thing just cannot rate any kind of overly serious punishment, and an advocate for disproportionality is immature.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Well done to their classmates who, I suspect, were offered the pics and did the right thing.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

ShimazakiToday  01:07 pm JST

And boundaries are not violated just because someone took a photo.

This is not only mischaracterising by comparing women to buildings, of all things, it’s minimizing. Also, taking pictures up a woman’s skirt most certainly is illegal, and the only reason these kids won’t be charged with a crime is because they’re kids.

Again, if a man can’t understand why it’s wrong to take pictures up women’s skirt, that nan is a dangerous sexual predator.

If photographs are violence,

Violence takes many forms, and sexual harassment, sexual assault, and sexual exploitation are forms of violence against women.

You went on to call these girls “weak” and say that you can’t respect them because of that. It says a lot that you not only don’t feel empathy for the girls, but also that you don’t respect them for being “weak” in that they felt violated.

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It horrifies me how insensitive people can be in this supposedly enlightened age. The girls in this situation WERE abused and violated. Period. The boys are pervets and need to be punished and disciplined over time not just scoffed at. Good to see this covered and a lively and interesting discussion but wow, i was shocked by many of the comments. And happy to see others. Well said Girl in Tokyo i commend you for your candor and perception,

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I really like my opponents' contempt of my right to express an opinion, and one proferred in good faith and candor, while I saying I should "empathize" with the girls. It's a lot harder to empathize with anyone when they are suffering genuine damage just for proferring honest thoughts.

@girl_in_tokyo Today 03:13 pm JST

This is not only mischaracterising by comparing women to buildings, of all things, it’s minimizing.

Saying I am minimizing is a complaint regarding quantitative (magnitude), and does nothing about my point, which is the quality (or direction).

taking pictures up a woman’s skirt most certainly is illegal

Certainly, but for a different protected interest than the one you claim. You can claim it violates her privacy. You can say it offends her feelings (though feelings are not generally a protected legal interest). You can argue it violates her right to security or the ordre publique.

But bodily integrity? Sorry, just ... no.

Violence takes many forms, and sexual harassment, sexual assault, and sexual exploitation are forms of violence against women.

If feminists want to retain the shock value of words like "Violence" or "Rape", I think they will do well to not "stretch" the words too much. You might think you are elevating the more "minor" forms by such tactics, but ultimately you are cheapening the word and reducing the empathy people feel on reading/hearing the word.

And just to make it clear. I never said it was completely OK. Please refer to my Feb. 12 10:51 am JST - I recommended punishment, so I must not be thinking it is completely OK.

I said that if you take more damage from the same hit (be it physical or mental), you are weaker than me. I don't know how it is possible to get around that.

I also proposed as a general principle, people find it hard to respect weak people. Please don't tell me that all else being even, you don't respect the person who shrugs off a blow in life over another who cries helplessly and begs for help. Unless you can tell me with a straight face that you actually respect the latter person more, basically I am correct.

And I don't think Empathy and Respect are the same at all. For example, you might give some money to this street beggar because you Empathize with his plight. Do you Respect him? Unless you mean the kind of "respect" you'll throw out to a baby (which I won't call respect at all), probably not so much.

I think it is within women to maintain a sense of perspective. That does not mean they must be UNoffended. It does mean maintaining a sense of proportionality.

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I think it is within women to maintain a sense of perspective. That does not mean they must be UNoffended. It does mean maintaining a sense of proportionality.

I think that it is not up to men to decide how women should react to sexual harassment or sexual assault.

I think that men who suggest that womens' reaction to sexual harassment or sexual assault is out of proportion are misogynists.

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