crime

Brazilian man acquitted of sexual assault after kissing Japanese woman on Nagoya train

120 Comments
By Casey Baseel, SoraNews24

On the night of June 26, 2016, a 23-year-old Japanese woman was sitting on a train travelling from Aichi Prefecture’s Chitahanda Station to Kanayama Station (a 30-minute ride), in the prefectural capital of Nagoya. At some point, the 44-year-old man sitting next to her, a Brazilian national living in Nagoya, introduced himself.

He asked the woman her name, what kind of work she did, and eventually asked her for her phone number, which she gave. As they continued talking, he took hold of her right hand, kissed her three times, and, according to the woman, began touching her lower body from outside her clothing.

The woman did not appreciate these overtures, and after filing a complaint with the police the man was arrested in March of this year, before being arraigned in April ahead of being placed on trial in Nagoya district court for the incident. Prosecutors sought a sentence of two years in prison, but on September 5 the trial ended with the defendant being cleared of all charges.

Presiding judge Mihoko Tanabe, a woman herself, accepted the man’s claim that he did what he did only because he felt that the woman welcomed the physical contact (though he denies touching her lower body).

Tanabe’s decision was prompted by a number of factors. “This was different from a situation in which a chikan [groper] suddenly gropes a woman, and we cannot dismiss the possibility that the defendant believed he had the plaintiff’s consent,” the judge commented, acknowledging that the two had been engaged in a conversation before the man’s physical advances.

In addition, the plaintiff neither appealed to other passengers for help nor moved to a different car of the train, and while Tanabe recognized the woman’s inner objection to what the man was doing, as evidenced by her police complaint, she ultimately felt that the lack of overt protestations also made it possible for the defendant to think what he was doing was acceptable. “Particularly as the defendant is a foreigner, he was unable to understand the defendant’s sentiment of rejection, and believed she was merely bashfully shy. We cannot deny the possibility that the defendant thought his feelings were reciprocated.”

Following the verdict, Nagoya Deputy Public Prosecutor Yukinobu Hayakawa said he is discussing what options remain regarding appeals to higher authorities. Meanwhile, defense lawyer Tatsu Morikawa said that he found the judgement reasonable and fair.

Sources: Chunichi Shimbun via Hachima Kiko, Yomiuri Online, Mainichi Shimbun

Read more stories from SoraNews24.

-- Man found innocent of molesting charges by claiming he was pickpocketing

-- Man found innocent of indecent assault denied 12 million yen compensation by Supreme Court of Japan

-- Osaka man imprisoned on rape conviction released in exceptional reversal of charges

© SoraNews24

©2019 GPlusMedia Inc.

120 Comments
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Sounds like a good judge, a refreshing change.

9 ( +26 / -17 )

so by the judge's logic, it's not rape if a woman doesn't resist hard enough? no wonder women are so hesitant to report sex crimes.

-23 ( +18 / -41 )

Indeed a fair decision, for a change, I really applaud the judge. It really simply seems just a case of miscommunication, and that no harm was intended from the man's side. He most probably thought he was doing what the lady expected him to do, especially after getting her phone number, and being allowed to kiss her. At no point, it seems, did he forced himself upon her. We do not know if alcohol (a well known de-inhibitor) was in the game on either two.

12 ( +27 / -15 )

 He most probably thought he was doing what the lady expected him to do, especially after getting her phone number, and being allowed to kiss her.

getting someone's phone number is hardly an open invitation to kiss or touch someone, especially on a public train. this wouldn't even be acceptable at a bar. silence isn't acquiesence.

-1 ( +19 / -20 )

and being allowed to kiss her.

You missed this part didn't you? They kissed three times, and I presume he didn't forced himself upon her. One can refuse a kiss in silence.

-8 ( +11 / -19 )

the actual wording in the story is: he took hold of her right hand, kissed her three times. It doesn't say that she allowed it. he just did it.

5 ( +16 / -11 )

It doesn't say that she disallowed it either. You deffinitely can't kiss someone if that person doesn't permit it, especially in a crowded train. It takes two to tango, you know...

1 ( +14 / -13 )

2 years!? Could've gone horribly wrong with a bias judge. Pragmatic result. Hope the young lady learns the difference.

4 ( +12 / -8 )

As they continued talking, he took hold of her right hand, kissed her three times,

WHAT??? All that within 30 minutes? On the train? kudos.

3 ( +15 / -12 )

So the judge thought that the woman wanted a random Brazilian dude fingering her in front of everyone on the train..? This is why women have it so tough. Extremely disappointing from this so called judge

-10 ( +15 / -25 )

This guy almost learned a Japanese culture lesson in a very hard way. What might be ok in private is definitely not ok in public. Especially if some old people saw it and started making that face that they make when people do things they dont like on the train.

Wont be able to know at what point what he did was ok or if it was ever ok to begin with. But 2 years for kissing someone and holding their hand after they already gave you their number? Thats way too harsh.

6 ( +11 / -5 )

You deffinitely can't kiss someone if that person doesn't permit it, especially in a crowded train.

first of all, there's no mention of a crowded train. second of all, yes, you can most definitely kiss, touch and have sex with someone who doesn't permit it. it's called sexual assualt, which is what happened in this case and happens all the time. as i said before, the judge based part of her reasoning on the fact that the woman didn't cry out for help, which is BS.

-4 ( +11 / -15 )

nakanoguy01: "so by the judge's logic, it's not rape if a woman doesn't resist hard enough? no wonder women are so hesitant to report sex crimes."

That's not what the FEMALE judge said at all, it's what YOU said. Nobody is justifying rape, and certainly no one but you is suggesting this is any kind of equivalent. I think we can all agree that it is rape if and when one party says "no" but the other (or others) go on anyway. This young woman not only did NOT say no, she didn't say anything. She did nothing, but waited until getting off the train and then later voiced a complaint. I find it odd that you would then say,

" second of all, yes, you can most definitely kiss, touch and have sex with someone who doesn't permit it."

Even if you actually MEAN that, the judge is completely correct, and very fair, in saying there was ZERO indication that it was not reciprocal at the time, and the man had reason to believe he had permission.

You're the only one equating this with allowing rape, bud.

10 ( +22 / -12 )

I'm glad this was the end result but he would have paid through the nose to get this result. He would have lost so much money, job opportunities etc.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

I actually agree with this ruling though at the same time, the guy was an idiot to move so fast. He must think women here are easy as hell. It is the responsibility of the woman to let him know that his advances are not wanted. It's as simple as ignoring him. Playing along out of fear or shyness and then ruining the guys life is just wrong.

5 ( +11 / -6 )

The article says she was 23, and the man 44. Now imagine if the man was, let's say, a 44 year old Japanese school principal, cop, lawyer, salaryman, firefighter, soldier, truck driver, etc...

Methinks many of you would not be singing the same tune of praises for the judge.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

This bloke's a sleazebag/predator. No one is going to make me believe that he, a 44yo Brazilian living in Japan, didn't know what he was doing. He knew very well that the early 20s J girl he targeted would (most probably) not say a thing nor throw a tantrum even if she disapproved what he was about to do.

He fully exploited the young J girl's relative naivety and got away with it. Def not a 2 years sentence but a full acquittal is a joke.

4 ( +14 / -10 )

This might indeed just have been miscommunication, and in that case I do think 2 years is too much, but it doesn't sit quite right with me that he gets cleared completely. Obviously the woman did not appreciate this incident and was probably very uncomfortable when it happened. I think a slap on the wrist, like a fine, would have been fair. It would have acknowledged the negative experience the woman had and also warned the man to think a bit more about the way he acts.

10 ( +14 / -4 )

Regret or embarrassment doesn't equal assault. Good verdict.

-2 ( +10 / -12 )

@beer. Interesting (good) point of view. I can't be sure yet that the guy is a sleaze-bag but he's stupid at minimum. That exceeded the speed limit in most countries, not just Japan.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

Trains are so romantic

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

 Extremely disappointing from this so called judge and what if the women was lying, two yrs imprison basically could ruin the guys life, Im totally against men forcing themselves on women but it seems the contact was consensual, the judge knows the fine details of the encounter and judged theguys thinking was genuine and the womens story was no consistent with the encounter. One thing J women need to state loud and clear when they dont approve on something is... NO! cultural excuses wont always save you.

-9 ( +8 / -17 )

A woman feels different when kissed in hands and being touched in such a way. The judge is a woman, wonder how she could give such a judgement.

-2 ( +7 / -9 )

Interesting, the comments above referencing cultural differences all refer to the Japanese woman, no one has commented on the very different cultural outlook from a Brazilian point of view?

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Particularly as the defendant is a foreigner, he was unable to understand the defendant’s sentiment of rejection, and believed she was merely bashfully shy

Foreigner gropers rejoice.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

Regarding the kisses, she should vocalize her objection and make it clear that she does not want anymore. For some guys, no no makes a yes.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Interesting, the comments above referencing cultural differences all refer to the Japanese woman,  well J women are almost infamous for not being able to say NO!, they can say yes and maybe but many still have this inability to say No to a man.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

this wouldn't even be acceptable at a bar. 

Apparently, you are not very familiar with bars.

5 ( +11 / -6 )

It's dodgy to say the least.

in addition, the plaintiff neither appealed to other passengers for help nor moved to a different car of the train, and while Tanabe recognized the woman’s inner objection to what the man was doing, as evidenced by her police complaint, she ultimately felt that the lack of overt protestations also made it possible for the defendant to think what he was doing was acceptable.

Yeah. Ever been sexually assaulted? Sometimes the victim is stunned into silence.

The judge is making excuses for the guy. Almost seems like victim blaming because she didn't scream out.

What do the rest of female contributors have to say about this? I think the "men" have had their say.

5 ( +13 / -8 )

bashfully shy

As opposed to raucously, or outrageously shy?

6 ( +6 / -0 )

Damn. Why is this even news? The media likes to highlight crimes committed by foriegners to perpetruate the muth that forueghners commit more crimes than Japanese?

Hundreds of Japanese women are sexually assaulted (including penetration on trains) everyday - why aere none of these (far more serious!) crimes never reported on?

And 2 years for a kiss!?

3 ( +8 / -5 )

Hundreds of Japanese women are sexually assaulted (including penetration on trains) everyday - why aere none of these (far more serious!) crimes never reported on?

I imagine the comments would be leaning to blaming the victims as so often happens.

Just look at the "kudos" comment, congratulating the alleged perp. No sympathy for the victim, whatsoever.

But it's considered newsworthy to big up certain perpetrators and alleged perpetrators nationalities. Makes some people feel vindicated in their never ending war on immigrants.

I think this particular story is worthy because of the comments the judge said regarding the victime not making "overt protestations".

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Victim blaming. It's her fault for not moving seats, speaking out, screaming etc. so she was obviously asking for it. Disgusting attitude.

5 ( +12 / -7 )

My one hope is that this news doesn't get much traction in Japan. It's a known problem in many countries that women will hesitate to report sexual assaults precisely because of this kind of outcome.

Yes, people in general should be capable of more assertiveness in unwanted situations (including myself), but a young woman stunned into submission by the sudden advances of a man probably close to her father's age deserves some understanding. I'm glad she at least found the courage afterwards to report it and take it to court.

Of course, we may not know the whole story and yes, two years might have been a harsh punishment when a large fine may have sufficed, but the wording of the judgement is just scary. It puts Japanese exceptionalism above protecting the country's people.

And letsberealistic..

Hundreds of Japanese women are sexually assaulted (including penetration on trains) everyday

...

(including penetration on trains)

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I can't find the link, buy there was this questionnaire somewhere with the clear result that Japanese women expect men to make the first steps, and think lowly of those who don't make them.

I find the term soushoku danshi (herbivore male - ox male) highly offensive, especially because it is used exactly in this context. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. From that point of view the judgement is very correct.

That woman in an ADULT, not refusing the initial steps, then changing her mind and accusing the man of assault. If she would have liked him, no accusation would have happened.

The judge refused her that liberty of playing with a man's future:

I like this nikushoku danshi, so let's play the game to the end, vs. I didn't actually liked him after a while, nevertheless, didn't tell him in clear terms to stop, but I will still accuse him of assault. It takes two to tango, and she tangoed for a while.

-4 ( +7 / -11 )

9 months later he's arrested? Anyway, he sounds like a sico predator to me. Did he ask if he could kiss her, or was he just praying on what he thought was a naive 23 year old? Maybe this happens in the big cities, I don't know, but if you want to meet people a bar seems like the obvious choice. Was this guy riding different trains looking for easy targets? If he rode this train regularly they would have caught him sooner.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

That woman in an ADULT, not refusing the initial steps, then changing her mind and accusing the man of assault. If she would have liked him, no accusation would have happened.

You are allowed change your mind. Being friendly with someone or being polite with someone does not mean any chance of romance is a given.

It takes two to tango, and she tangoed for a while.

Even if that's the case; does this excuse being pawed? Being assaulted? Was he entitled to gratification?

5 ( +9 / -4 )

I mean really, how does the fact that he's foreign even get referenced as if it's some kind of mitigating factor?

13 ( +13 / -0 )

It seems some would expect men to first obtained a signed (stamped) document certifying that they have permission to kiss...

This was a good judgement, IMHO.

-2 ( +8 / -10 )

It seems some would expect men to first obtained a signed (stamped) document certifying that they have permission to kiss...

Or maybe men might just possibly cop on and not believe they have a claim to women just because they smile or are polite to them on the train home?

10 ( +12 / -2 )

The article says she was 23, and the man 44. Now imagine if the man was, let's say, a 44 year old Japanese school principal, cop, lawyer, salaryman, firefighter, soldier, truck driver, etc...

Methinks many of you would not be singing the same tune of praises for the judge.

Exactly this. Kudos to you and nakanoguy01 for standing up to the old 'gaijin is always right' mentality that pervades this comment section. Some really sickening stuff on display here today - from posters who should know a lot better.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Toasted Heretic: "I imagine the comments would be leaning to blaming the victims as so often happens."

On the contrary, in cases of assault, which this was not, almost all people, and me one of the most adamant among them, CLEARLY blame the perpetrators. Some rightly point out on some occasions that there is not enough information, and express doubt since there are MANY cases of women wrongly accusing men for this and that (one woman was just convicted recently along with a man for setting a guy up, were they not? And before you guys jump the gun that is not at all suggesting that is what happened here).

"Just look at the "kudos" comment, congratulating the alleged perp. No sympathy for the victim, whatsoever."

No one is congratulating the man. No one. People are commenting that the judge was right in letting him go, and most posters in fact call the man stupid, despite the stupidity not at all being worth two years in the slammer given the facts of the case. And the guy WAS dumb, but being dumb and being criminal are not the same thing.

"Or maybe men might just possibly cop on and not believe they have a claim to women just because they smile or are polite to them on the train home?"

Now you're just grasping at straws and maybes.

hiding out: "Kudos to you and nakanoguy01 for standing up to the old 'gaijin is always right' mentality that pervades this comment section. "

You're misdirecting your anger again. I don't think anyone is defending the guy because he's a foreigner, they are saying the judge made a good call. The judge pointed out that there may have been an element of misunderstanding given that the man was a foreigner, but in actuality the only "well, he's a foreigner, so therefore..." judgements on this thread have been by people saying, "The 44 year old Brazilian definitely knew what he was doing" as well as comments like your own. It's only you turning it into an "us vs. them" argument.

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

The guy was arrested about 9 months after the incident, so I am wondering how long did she wait before filing the complaint. Did she do it on the same day, the following day, weeks later...?

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Ridiculous verdict. One wonders how many times this guy has done the same thing and gotten away with it. In what country is it normal to kiss someone three times you've just met on a train? And if she ended up complaining to the police about it, she obviously was upset. It is understandable she didn't ask for help from other passengers because she had no idea what to do (i.e. in a kind of shock). Jail time is a bit much but a fine and a suspended sentence would have been appropriate.

7 ( +12 / -5 )

On the contrary, in cases of assault, which this was not, almost all people, and me one of the most adamant among them, CLEARLY blame the perpetrators

@smithinjapan

I have to say, as usual the full story is not available. But. What is here seems to be nebulous, at the least.

The judge has ruled it was not assault. That's the judge's perogative. But as we know from countless judicial rulings both here and in other states; that don't mean the judge is right.

And the guy WAS dumb, but being dumb and being criminal are not the same thing.

That depends. Plenty of people online here and elsewhere would equate dumbness and criminality as such. But that's not the point.

She rejected him and felt she was taken advantage of.

the defendant believed he had the plaintiff’s consent

What does that statement even mean? Defendants and alleged perps believe all kind of stuff.

I fear this gives some kind of leeway to future would be Romeos to believing they can put the moves on lone women who really just want to journey home in peace.

Not having a go at you with my reply, per se, I agree with you on many topics/discussions. Just not this one.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

I think there's a mis-translation in the article. One of its source articles says:

さらに「飲みに行こう」などと言って女性に複数回キスをし、女性の手をつかんで自分の下半身を触らせた。

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/20170906-OYT1T50021.html

I believe this is:

He was saying 'let's go for drinks' and kissed her multiple times, then grabbed her hand and made her touch the lower half of her own (?) body.

Another source says:

女性に3回キスをし、女性の右手をつかんで着衣の上から下半身を触らせた

He kissed her 3 times, grabbed her hand and made her touch the lower half of her body over her clothes.

Of course that last part he apparently denied.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

@smithinjapan... excellent comments! You've stated very good points and justified your views. There are many others here who are just posting without reasoning or evidence!

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

Who the hell kisses a stranger on a train?! This guy deserved jail time.

8 ( +13 / -5 )

There does not seem to be enough information in this story to think this was a miscarriage of justice or to conclude that justice was done. The fact that a female Japanese judge found in favor of the foreign national would indicate that the typical biases that one might consider were not in play in this case. It is good to see that the man was given the presumption of innocence. This is rarely the case in similar situations on American college campuses today.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

A person who is capable of striking up a conversation and kissing in less than 30 minutes with a stranger.

Sexually obsessed college kids comes to mind. Any other type of character? A loving father, who tells his kids how easy it is to love. Oh great that’s what humanity needs. Quick find the first person available and share your love with them. How far can you go?

Let me take another route to this. Does this trial set the precedence that the “foreign card” is real and a legal avenue to avoid prison. As long as I grew up around people who liked being kissed by me and don’t argue, than I can impose my cultural on another nations law. Ok... I’m okay with this... (Everyone takes one step back). No come back, it’s my cultural belief to be super farward and welcoming.

I don’t know if anybody has taken a simple algebra class and knows how to plot a graph. Here is the equation: f(x) = 0 • x. Where x is how bad the crime was and the function returns the the number of years in jail for. Let’s put sexual assault at around an arbitrary x = 500. f(x) = 0 in this case. 0 years in jail. Now let’s make that crime rape, at an arbitrary f(1000). Still equal to 0. Hmm.... Let’s try murder now. f(2000). That’s arbitrary for people who disagree about order. But yet it’s still 0. So as long as cultural experience is in the equation as a big 0. Then crime is not eligible for punishment huh....

2 ( +4 / -2 )

At last, a judge with a mind of her own, of whom doesnot just "rubber stamp" a prosecutors demands.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

@Disco

By what you wrote, it sounds like sexual harassment to me, and would be a crime. Details only the Judge knows led her to her decision. In the end, I hope both have learned some lessons. Ladies, be more vigilant. Perves, buy a doll.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

23 years old is a child compared to a 44 year old. Think for a moment how far a 35 year old man would get with a 14 year old. I have little doubt that the girl was unable to respond negatively (enough) due to immaturity and/or lack of experience. While this Judges views about being different from "groping" is right, I completely disagree with her ruling. If he girl were you're little sister wouldn't you want to break his nose?

4 ( +10 / -6 )

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. That's fundamental point! I'm Brazilian grown up and living in Japan. I feel Japan is on the road of changing time. Especially, commitments of harassment by law increased so much these days and I imagine how much a gentleman has to be a real gentleman for ladies.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I think there's a mis-translation in the article. One of its source articles says:

さらに「飲みに行こう」などと言って女性に複数回キスをし、女性の手をつかんで自分の下半身を触らせた。

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/20170906-OYT1T50021.html

I believe this is:

He was saying 'let's go for drinks' and kissed her multiple times, then grabbed her hand and made her touch the lower half of her own (?) body.

The proper translation would be: "he made her touch the lower half of his body."

4 ( +4 / -0 )

The guy was arrested about 9 months after the incident, so I am wondering how long did she wait before filing the complaint. Did she do it on the same day, the following day, weeks later...?

Filing a criminal complaint with no evidence but your own testimony is a long process involving multiple interviews and statements issued with police. District courts are also wary of issuing warrants for such cases. I imagine there was a lengthy back-and-forth game between the woman/police/Ministry of Justice.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Filing a criminal complaint with no evidence but your own testimony is a long process involving multiple interviews and statements issued with police. District courts are also wary of issuing warrants for such cases. I imagine there was a lengthy back-and-forth game between the woman/police/Ministry of Justice.

Lucky the guy happened to be living in Japan the whole time?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

No can only mean no if the person actually says no.

Difficult one. As usual we don't have enough information to give an educated opinion, but from the limited information given, it seems the judge thought it out quite deeply.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

I am even appalled that he was sued, over her desire afterwards only that she did not like him. Japanese way of human relationships is totally wrong.

She just had to turn her head not to be kissed for example, or put her hand in front of her face. If she could not, I would call that to be disabled.

I always say to my wife : say what you want, I cannot read your mind.

No surprise herbivores males are florishing : you do, you're wrong, you don't do you're wrong.

Being adult in a modern world means you know you are not alone in the world.

All of you who think that trying out of the box is wrong should be blamed for your incapacity to be responsible.

Imagine you see that scene in the train (by the way this train line is the one I know best), who of you would have realized something was wrong ? Answer is no one because that is what happened. Who is without sin cast the first stone !

Being foreign, being older, being a man, being different, thinking differently, doing differently is not a crime itself ! At least in a democracy.

Her parents should have told her who to slap if necessary. 23 is being adult even in Japan.

-4 ( +6 / -10 )

She just had to turn her head not to be kissed for example, or put her hand in front of her face. If she could not, I would call that to be disabled.

Read the article before 'enlightening' the group with your thoughts. There was no 'face' kissing. Totally invalidates anything you might have to say when you don't even have the basics of the incident down.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

 There was no 'face' kissing.

There seems to have been something lost in translation. Every Japanese source article I read said that "the man grabbed her hand and proceeded to kiss her several times. Then he manipulated her hand to touch his lower body." Implying that he pulled her in close by her arm and kissed her, then rubbed her hand on his dingus(from above his clothing).

3 ( +3 / -0 )

There seems to have been something lost in translation. Every Japanese source article I read said that "the man grabbed her hand and proceeded to kiss her several times. Then he manipulated her hand to touch his lower body." Implying that he pulled her in close by her arm and kissed her, then rubbed her hand on his dingus(from above his clothing).

After reading your comment and others in the thread, I saw that Disco J posted the original Japanese earlier and noted that it was a mis-translation. The article needs to be fixed, it's incorrect.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

@hindingout

You mean he kissed her somewhere else so where. I meant anyway to make it easy for you that if you don't like something you at least show it to the person because you are now an adult.

By the way, is kissing itself a sexual assault if it is not on initimate parts (face, chest, crotch)?

I am not defending him if ever he lied but absence of reaction for an adult under no threat, no surprise (= by sudden), under the influence of drugs/alcohol or demand from superior authority means she was OK by definition itself by law if it is about the same in Japan.

You saw my finger while I was showing you the moon...

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

According to Yomiuri Online .....などと言って女性に複数回キスをし、女性の手をつかんで自分の下半身を触らせた。

A competent translator would not render that as "kissed her three times, and, according to the woman, began touching her lower body from outside her clothing." There's no indication of the exact number of kisses and there is a basic difference between "touched" 触った and "made her touch" 触らせた.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Read the article before 'enlightening' the group with your thoughts. There was no 'face' kissing. Totally invalidates anything you might have to say when you don't even have the basics of the incident down.

The article is actually incorrect. The articles in Japanese refer simply to kissing her, which can be implied to mean on her face. There has been nothing about the kissing being on her hand.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Out of curiosity; what do female contributors make of this incident?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

There are many others here who are just posting without reasoning or evidence!

I've commented on the judge's ruling which appears to be blaming the victim for not being more reactive to the assault.

What's your reasoning?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Yeah I wasn't sure on the direction of the '自分' in the source article. I initially thought it meant the accused, but some comments on Japanese sites made it sound like a bit different. I'm happy to take the correction on it though.

Either way, it sounds like he denied it and the judge put his word over the woman's.

In some ways I think that is a good 'precedent' since it shows there is a legal escape from false groping accusations (as you are a stupid barbarian foreigner who can't possibly understand delicate Japanese sensibilities).

5 ( +5 / -0 )

By the way, is kissing itself a sexual assault if it is not on initimate parts (face, chest, crotch)?

Would you consider it inappropriate if I repeatedly kissed for example, your elbow? Don't worry. I'll make sure to chat a full 30mins and get your phone number to make you feel comfortable.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Don't know this train, but is it possible they were the only two in the car and she was scared out of her wits Mr. Prin?

4 ( +6 / -2 )

By the way, is kissing itself a sexual assault if it is not on initimate parts (face, chest, crotch)?

Try kissing someone you've just met on a train and see.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Mr. Prin, some fine points you make indeed.

Since a man's nipples are not generally considered to be an "intimate zone," could I repeatedly kiss your nipples while pulling your arm to draw you in closer.

Please let me know which body parts you consider "non-intimate" so that I may repeatedly kiss them. Your lower back? The anterior of your knee? The tip of your big-toe, perhaps?

Please inform me so that I may repeatedly kiss it. I'll even make small talk and offer to take you out for drinks. I am, after all, merely a romantic gentleman.

Perhaps it would add to the romance and magic of the moment if I spoke in a language you do not understand, and was twice your size and age.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

To conclude our completely non-intimate encounter, I'll then rub your hand along my "lower body."

Over my trousers, of course. I am no barbarian.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

The B guy must be used to the J girls style.  Shy by consenting....

He never expected she's going to make a mess out of it.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

If seems a little odd to me that this man was arrested 9 months affter the alledged incident.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

You have to say no or attempt push the person away or flee. If you do nothing after all the other build up, then legally you don't have much of a case.

We've all been kissed by or have kissed someone who wasn't interested. Trying to send them to prison for it is shameful.

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

What kind of person fondles/kisses a stranger on a public train?

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Brazilians are amorous

J-bird just wasn't used to it

2 ( +5 / -3 )

goremeToday 11:15 pm JST

What kind of person fondles/kisses a stranger on a public train?

A Brazillian!

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Geez so many of the comments here are utterly disgusting. A lot of women either play along or freeze up in these situations because they are SCARED for their personal safety. There are so many instances of women being physically or verbally attacked or followed for turning down men. The onus shouldn't be on the women to speak up, it should be on men not to treat women like pieces of property. Just talking to someone doesn't mean you've given them the green light to touch you. Even if you exchanged numbers. Do you people have any idea how pushy, whiney, manipulative and aggressive some guys are about getting a woman's number, and how many women cave in and give the number in hopes that the guy will stop perstering them for the time being?

Anyway the cultural differences excuse for letting him off the hook is a load of horse poop as well. If someone is so socially inept that they either can't catch nonverbal cues or they make their moves so fast that they aren't even paying attention, it's just being an entitled, selfish, neanderthal turd.

At least this guy got a few months detainment before being let go but I am afraid this ruling will send out the wrong message. It will end up being the gaijin equivalent of the "I was drunk, I don't remember" wildcard. "Cultural differences, I didn't know she didn't want to be asaulted!"

2 ( +5 / -3 )

First, we don't where he kissed her or in what manner. Surely there were witnesses and if it was assault, due evidence and testimony would've been forthcoming. And I wouldn't be surpriised if there were cameras that recorded the whole incident.

The judge obviously knows better than the witch-hunt going on here.

Did he ask if he could kiss her, or was he just praying on what he thought was a naive 23 year old?

In a romantic scenario, tell me - seriously - who actually asks 'May I kiss you..??' before they move in?

Ever kissed a family member or friend on the cheek [mwah!]?? Did you ask them beforehand if it was okay? We don't know for sure, he might have just kissed her in a jovial manner. By this logic, women, children and other men could hold any man at ransom at any point in time, over rape charges. Also by this logic, kissing your kids goodbye before school could be considered incest!

Seriously, if the girl felt that way she should have just made it clear. Blame her role models in society for taking her voice away after a lifetime of saying 'no, I don't want to' falling on deaf ears.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

There are old moral laws in Japan. Originally three cases but dance law was changed a year ago. It was created two years after Japan lost war. Hugging in public. When a US big shot politician tried to hug Kashima, he pulled ack and two were almost fell on ground. Another one is ignored but the law is still intact. Kissing in public. Now, this verdict will encourage any foreign middle aged man try to hold any young woman's hand into his exciting standing that body part. Several people translated Japanese sentences.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

There are old moral laws in Japan.

Toshiko, they may be moral norms but there is no law against kissing in public. Some, more progressive than the average Japanese person, people want to do it. Why should they be condemned over public displays of affection? It's their business to express their feelings how they want to in their free time (unlike the iron rigid settings of work/schools etc).

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@AgeniX: You are right but but Japan is very slow in updating for people.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

The comments here and by the judge are just sad. "She didn't get up and move." Why on earth should a woman have to move to prove she was harassed. Let's try it this way shall we - "She didn'T keep her legs crossed, she didn't hit him, she didn't scratch him... so I guess she didn't really mind being raped." Many of the comments here go down that slippery slope and many of you insist on calling Japan a "safe" country. This is exactly why women don't bother to report crimes.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

The guy was arrested about 9 months after the incident, so I am wondering how long did she wait before filing the complaint. Did she do it on the same day, the following day, weeks later...?

Does it matter. Many victims of sexual assault do not disclose straight away.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Yeah, 2 years in prison would be too much, an old-fashioned slap on the cheek is enough in this case.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

I've personally witnessed exactly this situation many times: man gets handsy; girl attempts to ward him off with body language and euphemisms; guy pretends not to understand and keeps pushing, hoping to break down her barriers. Guy gives not a damn how the girl feels; he just pushes as far as he can push.

Not only have I witnessed this, I've also lived it - only I give the guy just one politely phrased chance to stop before I say "knock it the hell off or I'll smack the shite out of you."

Unfortunately, a lot of women are timid, shy, or too well-mannered to use the kind rough and direct language that's necessary to get a guy to stop. This ruling shows Japan obviously has a very long way to go in regards to defining sexual harassment, assault, and rape. Until then, I hope girls get stronger. I hope they start speaking up for themselves. I hope they start smacking the shite out of these kinds of men.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

I think the judge ruled correctly, but I find it absolutely disturbing that people are praising the judge's ruling for seemingly no reason other than he ruled in defense of a foreign man, against a woman. That's absolutely disgusting. There is no room for gender tribalism in sexual assault cases.

Were Japan a country where continuous enthusiastic consent was the rule in sexual encounters, the judge would absolutely be right to rule against this man and I would like Japanese culture to move in that direction. But sadly, Japan is still a country where sometimes "Iya da" doesn't always mean "no", and unfortunately in that light since the woman in this case gave no outward sign of opposition, it is reasonable to believe the man didn't realize he didn't have consent. That's not how it should be, but I don't see it changing without a radical re-education of what sexual consent entails and a radical re-thinking of women's role in sexual gratification.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

But sadly, Japan is still a country where sometimes "Iya da" doesn't always mean "no", and unfortunately in that light since the woman in this case gave no outward sign of opposition...

But this is when/where men need to learn no means no. If a woman is not into you, how do you just ignore it ad think by pressuring her it will be okay? In what culture is that even okay? It is not okay anywhere and yet men continue to do it. And yes, women continue to be meek and quiet about it because heaven forbid they scream at the guy to leave her alone. If she does that she's a frigid cow who clearly doesn't know how to take a joke/compliment/didn't think you were that hot anyway. Women can't win when men refuse to accept no or body language that states is very clearly. Japanese woman do state it very clearly. It's men that refuse it. Any foreign woman on here can tell you tells of seeing a J woman clearly not interested and saying no and the guy to listening. And when they say it with "Iya da", get up and go. Perhaps they will learn that their voice also has power. Doesn't just have to be polite body language and "Oh please leave me alone"" type comments.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Unfortunately a lot of foreign men fall into the same trap when it comes to Japanese women. Western culture tells us that Japanese women are shy and afraid to express their feelings, however in reality a neutral expression just means they are not interested. In my experience Japanese women do not try to suppress their feelings when they like a man. I feel sorry for the Brazilian man for his foolishness.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Some Japanese women are not like stereo type image of Japanese women. tiger wrote. There are foreign men whose center bottom. organ was chopped off or punched down with permanent damage. If you believe tiger, you will be labeled Chikan sooner or later.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

tmarieSep. 11  10:03 pm JST

But this is when/where men need to learn no means no. If a woman is not into you, how do you just ignore it ad think by pressuring her it will be okay? In what culture is that even okay? 

The article gives no indication that the woman said "no" or gave any sign she was not into the man. According to the article, the judge, "she ultimately felt that the lack of overt protestations also made it possible for the defendant to think what he was doing was acceptable."

And yes, women continue to be meek and quiet about it because heaven forbid they scream at the guy to leave her alone. If she does that she's a frigid cow who clearly doesn't know how to take a joke/compliment/didn't think you were that hot anyway. 

I have nothing but support for women who want to protect their autonomy, but for one thing I question if you're describing the Japanese context here or the context of your birth country, and for another I don't think the alternative to "do nothing whatsoever to protest" is automatically "scream at the guy to leave her alone." There are a host of options between the two.

Women can't win when men refuse to accept no or body language that states is very clearly. 

According to what we know of the case, we don't know that the woman here used body language that stated anything clearly. You're making assumptions. A lot of them.

The judge ruled that the woman in this case gave no sign that she protested the man's behavior. It is not ethical to just assume she gave tells or gestures to show she protested just because her doing so would help your position.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Katsu, the woman took the time to go and file a report with the police, Japanese police no less who are well known to revictimize women when reporting sex crimes.

Yes, there are indeed a host of other "options" - but many men refuse to accept those options. A smile and a shake of the head? Nope. A woman ignoring them? Nope. The fact that people are saying "well she didn't get up and move so she must have been okay" is proof that many just do not get it. A woman should not HAVE to get up and move away from someone victimizing her. And even if she does, in many cases guys get up and follow.

You're right, I am making assumptions. So are many others but I don't see you calling them out on those assumption. Why am I making assumptions? Because I have seen too many women, be it Japanese or not, clearly not into some guy and the guy not getting it because why on earth would he be rejected? The cues are often easy to see and many men ignore them. You'll notice I'm not the only female poster saying this, right? Girl in Tokyo wrote. "I've personally witnessed exactly this situation many times: man gets handsy; girl attempts to ward him off with body language and euphemisms; guy pretends not to understand and keeps pushing, hoping to break down her barriers. Guy gives not a damn how the girl feels; he just pushes as far as he can push."

The judged rules she gave no signs? Yep. But the judge was not there and could not see the face nor the body language of the woman. The judge in the end basically blamed the victim for this man's behaviour. Much like what many others do because, as I said before, she didn't call for help, she didn't move, she didn't make his hand away... Seriously, how many women do you think, more so in Japan, would be okay with some strange guy on a training sitting next to you, asking for your phone number and kissing them? More so a non-javanese guy (as much as I hate saying that). Think about it for a second. How many times have you actually witnessed such a scene and saw a woman clearly happy about it? I'm going to assume again - not many if not ever, right? Because women don't like it in most cases.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

What happens to kissing a girl's hand

What happens to playing hard to get

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@ BeerDeliverGuy

I have two girls 8 and 11. Try to kiss them if they don't want to. They will automatically show it to you. You are just wrong in your refkexion. Move on.

About location of kisses. I expressed a question. It is about law. You are not the one defining and deciding what a sexual assault using kiss is. Again wrong.

I would have helped that girl if she expressed any sign of being lost in front of that Brazilian.

I already did this several times with guys much bigger than my little self.

That is being responsible.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Not wanting to blame the lady but maybe she wasn't sure herself at the time what she wanted?

Since she had already given her number and everything.

I wonder how the encounter ended. That may give more clues as to what was going through her mind.

Otherwise I'm not sure why the man would be found not guilty absent other factors not in the story

1 ( +2 / -1 )

tmarieToday  12:32 pm JST

Katsu, the woman took the time to go and file a report with the police, Japanese police no less who are well known to revictimize women when reporting sex crimes.

I'm afraid I don't understand your purpose in saying this. I don't doubt for a second her word that she didn't want to be kissed or touched. What I doubt is any allegation that she showed this outwardly in the moment. Now perhaps you have heard the testimony of the trial and can fill in the gaps, but judging by the article here, she did nothing. Which means under the notion of consent as understood in Japan, I think we have to accept the judge's ruling.

Yes, there are indeed a host of other "options" - but many men refuse to accept those options. 

This is not really a relevant argument to the case. If you have evidence that she did any of those things and the man ignored them, and if that testimony came out in the trial, then you'd have a persuasive argument. But we don't have evidence that that did happen, so we should not assume.

A woman should not HAVE to get up and move away from someone victimizing her. 

I agree. A simple "Stop," in an ordinary tone of voice should be enough. Unfortunately, the article does not suggest she even did this much.

You're right, I am making assumptions. So are many others but I don't see you calling them out on those assumption. 

Well, normally I ignore anyone in an online comment thread about sexual assault issues because the vast majority are idiot MRAs or misogynistic redpillers who just want to see a random women suffer because they're pathetic guys who can't get over their rejection issues. But then you did reply to me personally so it would be rude if I didn't reply back.

The judged rules she gave no signs? Yep. But the judge was not there and could not see the face nor the body language of the woman. 

Neither were you. I don't see how you can pretend you know the situation better than a judge who listened to testimony from the two people involved.

Seriously, how many women do you think, more so in Japan, would be okay with some strange guy on a training sitting next to you, asking for your phone number and kissing them? 

It doesn't matter how many women would be okay with it. Sexual assault is not a matter of popular opinion. To argue otherwise is to suggest that it should be okay to touch someone who doesn't want to be touched if the majority of women are okay with it, and I'm sure you don't support that.

It should be that if a person (not just a woman, anyone) does not enthusiastically and continually consent to sexual contact, then that contact is assault. Unfortunately, it is only recently that Japan even recognized that sexual assaults can occur without also involving brutal violence. The country is still in a mindset of "Don't violate a forceful 'no'," not "Wait until a definite 'yes'." And until law as written and as practiced catches up to the idea that "Wait until a definite 'yes'" is the way to go, then however much we might dislike what the man did, we must accept that it was not a crime.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I am sure she felt justified by filing her clain as none of us were there to witness the scene it is all just so much hot air.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Jonathan Prin

I admire that your daughters have the boldness to act against unwanted advances.

Some women (and men) unfortunately, are not and (literally) freeze in fear.

Maybe my brand of sarcasm was a bit off color.

In more straight forward terms, the legal definition of sexual assault/harassment are ambiguous at times, and depend a lot on the perception of the recipient.

A kiss, or even a touch anywhere on the body has the possibility of being accused as sexual harassment/assault if the receiving party feels so.

Lets say I accidentally brushed against a woman's chest when passing in a narrow walkway. Most women would recognize this as an accident, then mutter "jerk" under their breath and not give it further thought.

However, if I cornered the same woman against a wall and touched her chest, well, I'd be in court as of now.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BeerDeliveryGuy is right. A lot of women freeze in terror and can't move or even protest. And in Japan, women who are cornered like this tend to freeze and just allow it to happen in order to get it over with so they can then escape. Japanese women very often have been taught that this is the only way to deal with such a situation.

And as I said, I've seen this happen many times, and I have on several occasions been the person to physically step in between and make the guy back off because the girl could not bring herself to fight back.

We are forced to accept the judgment because unfortunately, current Japanese law doesn't recognize enthusiastic consent as the norm. And considering that, it is not at all unreasonable to say that this is a grave miscarriage of justice.

There was a study (sorry, I don't have links right now but can post later) that showed people are quite astute at picking up on body language. This includes the body language of women who are panicked to speechlessness and do not want to be touched. Men who sexually assault and rape women simply ignore this body language, even though they know perfectly well what they are doing is unwelcome. In other words, these men rely on women's panic and subsequent sense of helplessness to prey on them. Studies show these men purposefully chose women whom they know will be easy targets to overwhelm into panick and silence.

This study and several others were what convinced lawmakers in the US (CA was a pioneer) to push for laws making enthusiastic consent as a standard.

Japan is far, far behind.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

And in Japan, women who are cornered like this tend to freeze and just allow it to happen in order to get it over with so they can then escape. 

That does sound a lot more likely than my idea a few posts back.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

He sounds like a creep regardless, trying to kiss someone he only just met. You might get away with it in a Brazilian night club at 3am, but not a Japanese train..

1 ( +1 / -0 )

A simple "Stop," in an ordinary tone of voice should be enough. Unfortunately, the article does not suggest she even did this much.

You know what's even simpler? Men not thinking they have the right to grope a woman they don't know. Saying "stop" is not easy. More so in a serious scary position like this. Girl in Tokyo once agains nails it with her post. And even "stop" doesn't stop all men. How about this guy seriously stop thinking he has a right to walk ups and kiss women as he pleases? You are placing ALL of the blame on the victim and not an ounce on the guy who walked up to someone he doesn't know, sat down, started chatting and kisses her.

 What I doubt is any allegation that she **showed this outwardly in the moment. **You know what I doubt (since we are back to making assumptions) is I doubt this woman actively agreed to being kissed. You know the whole "she's just not into you" thing. If she wasn't kissing back or looking really happy about it, guess what? She's outwardly showing she's not giving consent. If women are expected to say "stop" or "no" in such situations, shouldn't men be expected to ask if is okay? The blame and responsibility always seems to land on women...

1 ( +1 / -0 )

and, according to the woman, began touching her lower body from outside her clothing.

Perhaps he was hallucinating and thought he was Donald Trump.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

tmarieToday  03:08 pm JST

A simple "Stop," in an ordinary tone of voice should be enough. Unfortunately, the article does not suggest she even did this much.

You know what's even simpler? Men not thinking they have the right to grope a woman they don't know. 

Whether he believed incorrectly is different from whether he is guilty of a crime.

You are placing ALL of the blame on the victim

I am placing zero blame on the victim. I agree the guy was totally in the wrong. Where we disagree is whether or not him being in the wrong, as described in this article and based on what I know of the legal system, is actually a crime.

**You know what I doubt (since we are back to making assumptions) 

It is not an assumption to judge based on the information presented in the article, and the article presents zero information to suggest that the woman did anything in reaction to the man. The judge said as much.

I doubt this woman actively agreed to being kissed.

Very likely true.

If she wasn't kissing back or looking really happy about it, guess what? She's outwardly showing she's not giving consent.

Under the concept of sexual consent that has been growing in Anglophone countries in the last decade, I totally agree. Unfortunately, Japan does not to my knowledge operate under that concept.

The blame and responsibility always seems to land on women...

Actually, I have had to deal with being touched in an unwanted manner similar to this woman (without the hand kisses though). I would not dream of pressing any kind of charges against someone who did so without my first unambiguously insisting it stop. It is not that I am at fault for being touched, it is that as I understand the legal threshold for sexual assault in Japan, it is required for me to express opposition (assuming I am able) before the touch becomes a criminal act. I realize that many women have safety anxieties that I as a man may not have, but on this point for me it is not a gender or sexual matter. It's the same for everyone.

It may be tempting for you to link me in with all the MRA/MGTOW idiots above, but we'd probably have a much more productive conversation if you recognized that apart from our opinions of the legal status of what happened, we are 100% on the same side.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Should be in an ideal situation.

If a woman says stop or no I do and ask why.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

If I see all the '-' at comments which don't agree with the judge, I assume that there are many idiots living in Japan, too many.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

But this is when/where men need to learn no means no.

The problem is that they KNOW that Japanese women often say no when they mean yes; several Japanese women have told me this. It is difficult for many of them to give an "enthusiastic yes".

Anyway, from the information given in the article it is very easy to imagine very different scenarios of what actually happened. Perhaps, she did not object at all during the encounter (even internally), and only complained after days went by without any calls from the guy; who knows...

I am assuming that the judge's decision is partly based on details not provided in the article.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

For me No is No, surprised a few ladies who asked why I stopped.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

For me No is No, surprised a few ladies who asked why I stopped.

Yeah, I got that too.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Perhaps one day people will have similar discussions about handshakes... e.g., country X was a pioneer in demanding enthusiastic consent to a handshake; however, country Y is so far behind in that they allow one person to reach out and shake the other person's hand without their explicit and enthusiastic consent, even after talking for just 30 min.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

If you think a handshake is sexual, you are doing it wrong.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Raw Beer,

Men who sexually assault and rape women give all kinds of excuses to justify their behavior, and the one they use the most is, "I thought she wanted it."

However, its actually not at all difficult to know if a woman wants to be touched, kissed, or have sex. People are astute at understanding non-verbal behavior, such as body language, facial expressions, as well as gestures and verbalizations like sighing or moaning.

its simply not true that Japanese women say "no" when they mean "yes" and give no other clues as to what they want. The clues are always there; the men simply pretend not to notice them.

Additionally, the only sort of man who isn't constantly on the lookout for signs the woman is comfortable and is enjoying herself is a despicable excuse of a human being who has no conscience about using women for his own selfish pleasure.

This goes double for a man who would pick up a woman on the train, and then have no qualms about expecting her to allow him access to her body with barely any time to get to know her.

Being that I'm bisexual, I've had plenty of experience navigating the waters of sexual consent with women, and I can say with certainty that it's not difficult. Saying "I thought she wanted it" is nothing but an excuse certain types of men use to justify their selfish quest to use women for sex.

As I said earlier, Japan has a very long way to go in regards to recognizing sexual misogyny, acknowledging female sexual autonomy, and regarding active consent as the standard.

And it seems to me a lot of the men in this thread do, too.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Seems many are projecting their own bad experiences and biases onto this incident, without knowing what really happened.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

girl_in_tokyoToday  08:00 am JST

...People are astute at understanding non-verbal behavior, such as body language, facial expressions, as well as gestures and verbalizations like sighing or moaning.

It doesn't seem like sighs and moans would apply to a hand-kiss on a train. Besides, potentially uncontrollable physiological responses are not in and of themselves consent.

The clues are always there; the men simply pretend not to notice them.

This is a very dangerous thing to argue for. Sexual consent should never be a matter of "what most people can figure out." It should be 100% unambiguous for 100% of the people involved.

This goes double for a man who would pick up a woman on the train, and then have no qualms about expecting her to allow him access to her body with barely any time to get to know her.

This is a good example of the problem with your "most people" argument. There are people who are up for hand kisses and light petting on short notice with the right kind of partner. The fact that you and the women you know aren't doesn't make that criminal for someone who consents - the only relevant factor is if the people involved both consent.

The fact is both participants have an unavoidable role to play in communicating sexual consent. The fantasy that you can expect to always get exactly the kind of touching you want from the people you want while never getting the kind of touching you don't want from people you don't want without expressly communicating your wishes is from a legal standpoint exactly that - a fantasy.

You can have a law that says sexual assault happens when either party says they don't consent, or you can have a law that says sexual assault happens when either party doesn't expressly say they consent, but you can't have a law that said sexual assault happens when either party does something "most people" wouldn't be comfortable with.

Being that I'm bisexual, I've had plenty of experience navigating the waters of sexual consent with women, and I can say with certainty that it's not difficult.

With respect, we cannot decide all of sexual assault law on the basis of one random commentator's personal experience. That holds as true for the PUA dumbass who insists most women secretly want it as it does for you.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Katsu, the examples I gave were just that - examples, and not meant to apply to this situation in particular. The point is that people are astute at picking up body language, and men who rape and sexually assault women ignore body language and know quite well the woman does not want to be touched.

In other words, a man who is forcibly kissing a woman will know it whether she says "no" directly or indirectly. This is not an opinion. This is a fact which was borne out by the studies upon which active consent laws are based.

Active consent laws do not say, as you seem to think they do, that "sexual assault happens when either party does something most people wouldn't be comfortable with" or "what most people can figure out."

To quote the actual law:

"Affirmative consent” means affirmative, conscious, and voluntary agreement to engage in sexual activity. t is the responsibility of each person involved in the sexual activity to ensure that he or she has the affirmative consent of the other or others to engage in the sexual activity. Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent. Affirmative consent must be ongoing throughout a sexual activity and can be revoked at any time. The existence of a dating relationship between the persons involved, or the fact of past sexual relations between them, should never by itself be assumed to be an indicator of consent."

It is now being acknowledged that many women are mentally and physically unable to directly communicate "no" due to sheer terror, and the way they deal with this terror is to freeze up and wait for the assault to be over. It is recognizance of this phenomena (which is based on studies in psychology which are not even new) that prompted this change in the law.

As this woman's description of this incident and her reaction fits this pattern, it is not at all unreasonable to conclude that what happened to her was exactly what she said it was - sexual assault.

You also seem to be denying that people's social behavior falls into predictable patterns. This is contradicted by both sociology and psychology. Behavioral patterns are common enough and predictable enough to allow quite accurate judgment of, for example, what other people's feelings will be in given circumstances as well as predict what their reaction will be. As an example, public displays of affection in Japan are not socially acceptable and thus people do not generally engage in them. Japanese people in general are conservative about sex, so strangers generally don't suddenly start making out in public shortly after they meet. What you are doing here is attempting to pretend these patterns don't exist, and in doing so are in essence calling this woman a liar. I find that to be utterly deplorable.

One last thing. You accuse me of engaging in speculation. However, logical deduction based on known factual elements is not the same as speculation without hard evidence. For example, my saying that a Japanese woman would not be comfortable with making out with a stranger on a train is making a deduction from patterns of well known and understood behavior; on the other hand, it is entirely unreasonable of you to assert the much more unlikely scenario as somehow being more likely.

I honestly feel like I'm pointing out the obvious here, but it looks like you actually need things explained in just this way.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

girl_in_tokyoToday  12:14 am JST

Katsu, the examples I gave were just that - examples, and not meant to apply to this situation in particular.

Well, let's stay on topic then, please.

The point is that people are astute at picking up body language, and men who rape and sexually assault women ignore body language and know quite well the woman does not want to be touched.

While this is no doubt true for for a large number of men who commit rape/sexual assault, it cannot be said for all. For a law to be a good law, people have to be able to know when they've broken it. If any number of men (or women, let's remember) aren't able to know if they've broken the law, the law as written is bad.

Active consent laws do not say, as you seem to think they do, that "sexual assault happens when either party does something most people wouldn't be comfortable with" or "what most people can figure out."

You seem to have grossly misunderstood my argument, I never claimed anything of the sort. In fact, I claimed the exact opposite. I'm calling for active consent laws in Japan. You are making arguments that somehow men should just magically know if they have consent without their partners actually engaging in active consent.

To quote the actual law:

Is that the Japanese law you're quoting? Because Google searches curiously have it coming up in a California context and the Japanese law is the only one that matters here. I wish Japan had active consent laws, but from what I know, it doesn't. Now of course, if my knowledge is lacking, feel free to correct, but it would be helpful if you did so with an actual source I could check up on my own for my own education, not just a vague unsourced quote about an unnamed "the law".

You also seem to be denying that people's social behavior falls into predictable patterns. This is contradicted by both sociology and psychology. 

Having actually studied psychology, I can't think of any statement further from the truth. If there is one thing that is consistent about both the human mind and human sexology, it's that whatever patterns you think are normal, there are a significant number of people who don't fit them. No matter how much people might want other people to fit into neat and tidy boxes in order to confirm their own beliefs, it doesn't actually happen.

Japanese people in general are conservative about sex, so strangers generally don't suddenly start making out in public shortly after they meet. 

That is true. It doesn't however follow from that that all strangers who do get kissed (on the hand, let's remember) in public must automatically not consent to it.

What you are doing here is attempting to pretend these patterns don't exist,

No, what I'm doing is arguing is not that those patterns don't exist, but that they are irrelevant to the matter of consent. Consent is not a majority rules game. Consent can only be given or declined by the people directly involved in the act. It's not up for a public vote.

it is entirely unreasonable of you to assert the much more unlikely scenario as somehow being more likely.

Just what scenario do you think I've asserted? Because if you would have actually read my posts you would see I haven't asserted any scenario beyond what was expressly claimed in the judge's ruling.

I honestly feel like I'm pointing out the obvious here, but it looks like you actually need things explained in just this way.

Yup, good of you to work in that personal attack barb at the end. It really elevates the discussion and treats sexual assault law with the sincerity and gravity it deserves.

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"I never claimed anything of the sort."

Yes, you did. That was a quote from you.

"You are making arguments that somehow men should just magically know if they have consent without their partners actually engaging in active consent"

No. That's not what active consent is. And you're saying this even though I literally quoted the CA law to you.

I really don't have the time or patience to go through that again, and you seem to be here only to bait people into arguments. Bye.

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And you're saying this even though I literally quoted the CA law to you.

CA law is irrelevant in a Japanese courtroom.

I really don't have the time or patience to go through that again, and you seem to be here only to bait people into arguments. Bye.

It's unfortunate that you feel that way. It's pretty ironic that you are so insistent that this men don't listen to sexual partners while simultaneously ignoring what I've said and fixating on what you wish I'd said, even though I didn't.

Oh well, if you'd ever like to actually help influence Japanese consent culture for the better instead of bickering with an imaginary strawman version of me, you know where to find me.

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