crime

Chiba cop arrested for allegedly groping woman on train

93 Comments

A police officer was arrested Tuesday on suspicion of violating anti-molestation laws after he allegedly groped a woman on a train in Anagawa, Chiba Prefecture. The suspect, who has been identified as Kengo Ikeda, 31, has denied the charge, prefectural police said.

According to police, Ikeda boarded a train on the Tobu Noda Line and from around 7:20 a.m., groped the leg of a 24-year-old woman sitting beside him for around 25 minutes. Upon the train's arrival at Kashiwa station, the woman asked a station employee to detain Ikeda and contact the police.

In a statement, Kashiwa Chief of Police Hisao Kase said, "It is truly regrettable that a police officer should commit an act like this. I would like to apologize to the victim."

© Compiled from news reports

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“It is truly regrettable that a police officer should commit an act like this. I would like to apologize to the victim

so far he has denied the allegations and has yet to face the judicial system but has already been abandoned and passed off as guilty.

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Typical japanese. Groped for 25 minutes and didn't do anything until arriving to the station.

If it was in USA or Europe, the woman would have screamed loudly at the guy and slapped him after 10 seconds of groping.

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Seriously? 25 minutes of groping and not once did she shout out "DAME!" to get the other passenger's attention?? The fish are smelling particularly rotten in Denmark today.

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I also used to wonder why girls just sit or stand there and take it but they do. The perp probably didn't have his hand on her leg for the whole 25 minutes. I've read many stories like this. Maybe the women are intimidated and just hope the guy will stop and go away. You'd think she would at least get up and move away.

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You know, after a certain period of time - say 5 or 10 minutes of groping, max - he actually has an argument that it was consensual. In cross-examination all one has to do is ask her, "Did you at any time tell him to stop? No? How about after 10 minutes? No? Not even after 15 minutes? Did you ever get up and leave? No? So you expect the jury to believe that you sat there without objecting or leaving for nearly a half an hour?!"

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she deserves it! The problem is not with the gropers, it is with the idiots that let it happen!

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What is this, like the umpteenth time this year? BTW it's the Tobu Noda line, not the Tobunoda.

Moderator: That has been corrected. Thank you.

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combinibento- you have watched to much Law&Order. Consented to getting groped on public transport? Please don't try to justify this kind of behavior because the victim did not cope with the trauma the way you think she should have from your Western perspective. Yea it all seems logical, but it's just not the way things are done here. I don't if they are just too embarrassed or want to try to save face or what but many don't even report this type of assault, but that doesn't mean they consent or enjoy it.

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I said he "has an argument" that it was consensual - not that it was. Big difference. For the record I agree with you that it most likely not consensual but sitting there for 25 minutes while some guy gets his rocks off doesn't exactly bolster your case that you were molested against your will.

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25 minutes? A 24 yr old woman puts up with being touched for 25 minutes without being able to move, tell him to stop, scream, ask for help or do anything? Because of shyness? Fear?

But then when she gets off at the station, somehow she can muster up the courage to contact a station employee and point the man out and explain what happened?

And in the end what he was doing was groping her leg?

Interesting.

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Ah, the good old police! If they're not screwing up and getting people killed, they're groping people on trains or stealing panties.

loveinJapan: "she deserves it!"

She most certainly does not! Stupid to not say something sooner, I agree, but what, pres tel, makes her deserve to be molested?

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She doesn't deserve to be molested but by not drawing attention to it in front of witnesses on a train she has absolutely no proof of it happening. As much as I think it did happen I can't see this guy getting convicted based on hearsay. That is why it happens. She must ensure that witnesses see it happen to her. Good luck lady. He'll get away with it because you did nothing.

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mikehuntez: We are actually in agreement, although usually the onus of proof is on the person accused in such cases (I know one poor guy who lost everything because of a false accusation, and even when he 'proved' himself innocent he never got a lot of it back). Because the man in question is an officer this time, though, there's a better chance he'll get off, so to speak.

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25 minutes of groping between stations? Another Keystone accused? will these outrages never cease?

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No, the problem is that even if she would scream, noone would help her. This is Japan and reality. She did the right thing by reporting it to higher authorities and I hope for her that they will do something this time.

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No, the problem is that even if she would scream, noone would help her.

That"s a bit of heavy stereo-typing right there and not founded on reality.

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It is not, I experienced it myself.

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The Japanese police force(not all of them) but a stastically signifant amount of them needs to clean up their act. If you want respect, you have to earn it.

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I guess the prospect of giving up her seat on the train was far worse than the current situation. An all Japanese jury would definitely take that in to account and still the convict the guy.

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Why didn't she get up, and kick him in the shins? What were all the other people doing for 25 minutes, watching?

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The fact she did not protest or even tell the guy to stop will or should go along way in this guys defense, i do not condone what allegedly has happended but if you sit there and let yourself be groped for 25mins was it only the lack of room on the train seat that he didnt screw her brains out too because she probably wouldnt have said no to that either.

Gotta ask yourself sometimes what goes on insides some peoples heads!!

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I notice that supervisors always feeling regret for the actions of their subordinates, but nothing about nothing about disgust about the act itself.

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I agree with combinibento, but it would be a weak argument at best. All she would have to do is say she was too scared. This would be classed as a sexual assault in the states, and a felony depending on where his hand went.

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I cannot believe that anyone, would allow themselves to be molested for 25 minutes without saying, or doing SOMETHING!

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Foxie.

So your ONE case makes it for all of Japan.

Got a news-flash for you, I seen a few groping cases and they ended differently as the woman and bystanders acted as soon it was clear. Granted also seen cases where no action was taken but that was mostly because the train was so crowded that you couldn't see much beyond a foot never mind what happens at waist level less than that distance.

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25 minutes???

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i'd understand that she couldn't yell or punch him, but why wouldn't she even stand up and walk away? one time i was on a train early in the morning and was sleeping, some guy sat next to me and started touching.. i didn't scream but i stood up and moved to a different car. even if the train was crowded, she could surely stand up and let someone else take the seat..

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25 minutes and she did nothing? She's an idiot!

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I think she was cleverer than most of you might think. Probably she put herself in a 'undercover' situation and waited so she could have nail him after all. If she had done something earlier he would stop and never be caught, right?

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bogva: Good point! Maybe she was waiting for him to get off the train.

Last night I saw a drunk man groping a woman's chest in Roppongi station, and she was protesting and trying to push him away. There were 3 station security officers standing in full view and they all looked the other way. I have to admit that I also did not get involved. Like many people, I tend to think that someone else will take care of it, and that I am probably assuming too much - what if they had been a couple having a fight? Still, I probably should have gone back through the ticket gates to pretend to ask directions or something, to give her a chance to run away...seeing as no-one else paid any attention to it. It bothered me so much that I got on the wrong train, though ;p

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so, whats new? thats japan for you.

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25 minutes and no protest? May be if the cop was a bit more aggressive and get her turned on, then they'll wind up in a love motel ? Whatever , it smells fishy to me................

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Either I'm living in the right country or the wrong country. I haven't figured this place out just yet. 25 minutes? Wonder if I could get away with getting my groove on for 25 minutes.

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So your ONE case makes it for all of Japan.

I think you're forgetting the case of the woman who was dragged screaming into a train toilet and then raped, while all the people in the train sat there and did nothing.

Take any psych 101 course and you'll learn how screaming does nothing because people worry too much for their own safety to help you. And then even if they would do something, too often they think someone else will call the cops or get help, so they do nothing. It's not just Japan, although the desire to not cause a scene does make it a bit worse in Japan.

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bogva: You have an interesting point. Perhaps she was hoping to get witnesses by letting it go on for so long but my guess is that she just didn't want to bother giving up her seat. And if more women stopped gropers by glaring, yelling, slapping his hand away or something, there would be fewer gropers who would try to do it in the first place. I am not blaming the woman at all but it is important to learn how to avoid being a victim of a crime.

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So, would you scream if you knew a cop was doing that to you? You have zero chance because he will say something very different at the station and in order to not disgrace the station, he will be let go free whilst you will be threatened to shut your mouth. That's the real world.

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Foxie.

Depends if he was in Uniform or not? Don"t you think?

Kinda hard to identify a cop(for us atleast) if he is not in Uniform.

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MonkeyZ.

I would agree if that type of behaviour was unique to japan but it isn't as tests worldwide have shown. They found most people actually cheered and encouraged the action.

Sick it is.

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Zenny, all he needs to do is whisper in your ears that he is a cop. Poor girl, she must have been frightened to hell.

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So, why didn't this chicky move? He has denied the allegations and without witnesses he should be freed regardless of the actual events. It just seems a bit strange she didn't move, scream or do anything for that length of time. Sorry, but, as ready as I am to accept another J-flop has crossed the line, I just can't this time without further details.

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Foxie.

Nice try. So you believe everything you hear?

As was said something here smells fishy and it ain't my cats supper either.

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No, the problem is that even if she would scream, noone would help her.

That"s a bit of heavy stereo-typing right there and not founded on reality.

Actually, foxie IS right for the most part. It happened to me too, and before I would have said the same thing that many other people on here would say ("why didn't she...?") but you just can't predict what you will do or how other people will react. I was TERRIFIED - frozen to the spot. I couldn't believe what was happening and I wanted to shout and scream but nothing came out. A whole bunch of people saw it, reacted in their expressions but did NOTHING. I was pregnant at the time and terrified for the baby in case he got violent. I didn't even want to move because I was scared he would follow me/get more aggressive.

In the end my friend pulled me away, he got up to follow but THANKFULLY some guy next to him pulled him back down on the seat again and that was the end of it.

I have since spoken to many friends both Japanese and foreign about it and two things that have come out are a) it is incredibly common and b) none of the Japanese women did anything about it. The western women did, which makes me all the more ashamed that I didn't, but I think at the time all I was thinking about was the baby and this guy was obviously crazy and unpredictable.

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Why make this an issue any more since no one at the top is giving a damn about it. It happens so often in this screwed up culture so they will never put an end to it. Groping has been a long time trend for the J-cops and the men with uncontrollable desires to grope for decades. They must think of females as a piece of meat which they can feel before purchasing.

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Depends if he was in Uniform or not? Don"t you think? Kinda hard to identify a cop(for us atleast) if he is not in Unifor

Easy to ID a J-stone here. No neck, a beer belly and a pair of stolen knickers in his pocket.

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JN finest Keystones........

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Wow thought he could get away with it because in Uniform? What!? 25 Mins? WOW Try that to a Gaijin Girl & it would have been 2.5 seconds & smack! right in the Face. really even Goerge of YesJapan has mentioned it. They (jp men) Know most Gaijin girls won't put up with it.

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Ok, Japanese people worry A LOT about what the public opinion thinks. No matter if they are molested, some of them would prefer to remain silent than create inconvenience and have everybody stare at them. It's a group culture after all, and acting as an individual is not very common. Moreover, people worldwide tend to avoid any kind of trouble. They just prefer to mind their own business than getting involved in any kind of situation. Of course, sitting for 25 mins doing nothing....its too much.

It's a matter of fact though that some police officers in Japan are just terrible. I remember when i visited a rural area with my wife four years ago, there was a guy trying to peep at her in the ladies toilet of the station. Fortunately, i thought he was suspicious and when i noticed him going to the ladies toilet and yelled at him, he ran away. The problem started when we tried to explain the whole event to the local police officers and tell them to be cautious. My Japanese wife explained to them over and over what happened but they acted like i was the suspect and asked me about my visa, how long i plan to stay in Japan, how long we are married etc. The only thing they did was ask about the description of the man and thats it... Complete lack of professionalism.

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Zenny11: "I would agree if that type of behaviour was unique to japan but it isn't as tests worldwide have shown. They found most people actually cheered and encouraged the action."

What tests are you talking about? Any stats and proof to back it up? I'm sorry, but that whole dragging to the toilet for rape thing with no one doing anything about it -- that IS unique to Japan as a developed nation.

While I still wish the woman had done something the fact of the matter is many of the women who DON'T do anything act that way because they're afraid of how the police will handle it later. And while examples in which police will believe the woman over the accused are on the increase (without proof), there is still a tendency in Japan to call into question the woman's sexual history, discredit the story, and ultimately humiliate the person much more than they would be if they just try to endure it (and in cases like this report it later).

Anyway, there's no excuse for what this officer did, if he indeed did it. The problem is, it's going to be hard to prove, and as she's fighting the law... well...

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Should we be surprised?

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I 100% agree the bystander effect is not exclusive to Japan as a developed nation.

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The problem is that when somebody will confront the man and the man becomes violent or aggressive and play the role of the victim once the cops arrive...that will be a big trouble. There has been a lot of cases that somebody intervenes and when the cops arrive, the girl runs away and leave the poor guy in a fix. Solution? First let the victim scream or ask for help then people will react. If not...sorry ladies but its the guys job on line should things get out of control. Japanese ladies tends to run away and will not testify.

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Maybe the train was crowded and she couldn't move away from him until it stoppped? Have you all never been on a crowded train before?

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If she was scared, then why didn't she just get off sooner??? No stop for 25 minutes? She wasn't on a shinkansen, it was the Tobu Noda line, stops every 3 minutes or so. Why didn't she just get off? She managed to at Kashiwa, why not at the first stop after he started groping her?

She's either a liar or an idiot.

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Maybe the train was crowded and she couldn't move away from him until it stoppped? Have you all never been on a crowded train before?

I get on crowded trains every morning and every night that are much more crowded than the Tobu Noda line and I have never had problems getting off, even when seated.

What are you like 400 pounds or something? ;)

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I agree with one Poster that trying to stand up will make you the assailant if the woman runs or refuses to press charges.

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My wife told me never to interfere in such cases unless the girl is your family or close friend because the victim will usually run away and will not press charges...mendokusai for them but its your life on line. Let the girl react and if she screams for help then help but do not initate action as there will be no witnesses to help you. Once the commotion starts, the girl will be gone and you are left with nothing but trouble.

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I just don't understand how you can stand there and not do something, even if it's 'troublesome' or lands you in some hot water. Sometimes you need to do the right thing, regardless of outcome. What is the matter with some of you? It's not about trying to be a hero -- it is simply doing the right thing, out of a sense of duty to your own intrinsic values. Again, I need to ask -- if this was your friend, your sister, your wife, your daughter...how are you going to justify simply standing by and not speaking up or calling attention to such despicable actions, at the very least? How would it feel to know that not one soul, male or female, helped them stand up to a lowlife like this?

That being said, women in such situations need to stand up for themselves. Your terrified silence implies complicity, at least to the convoluted perceptions of guys like this. Do not let yourself be a victim.

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If it was a friend or family I would do things.

But is it worse possible loosing your job for helping out a woman who won"t help herself. Not joking here.

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worth

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I couldn't believe what was happening and I wanted to shout and scream but nothing came out. A whole bunch of people saw it, reacted in their expressions but did NOTHING.

What did you expect? Everyone around you sees you're getting fondled and you're just standing there letting it happen. As far as the other passengers know, this is how you get your jollies. Their expressions were probably a reaction to the "wanton pregnant lady who has no shame and has her boyfriend do this to her in a public place". While there is the possibility they wouldn't have helped you if you HAD objected, your inability to object guaranteed their non-involvement.

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zenny11: "I agree with one Poster that trying to stand up will make you the assailant if the woman runs or refuses to press charges."

If you physically assault the person, perhaps. Otherwise, what are you suggesting, that people continue to hid in cowardice as a person screams for help? Are you proud of the people on the shinkansen who did nothing as the girl was dragged away to be raped in the toilet?

Don't you see that that's what part of the posts are about? If ONE person stands up, assaults the guy/gal in question, and the original victim runs off the person (especially if a foreigner) who tries to intervene MAY get in trouble -- but what most people are saying is that SOCIETY has a major problem when it comes to aiding others in such situations, not individuals. They're sheep -- and it's far worse here than in other developed nations. In a dictatorship it might be as bad worse, though.

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This is Japan. Ask the gaijin who was sent to prison because he stood up against a train molester and the girl did run when the commotion started leaving the poor gaijin in a fix. As I remember, the gaijin did paid a handsome fine, lost his job, and was sent packing after serving his term.

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mikihouse.

Fully agree and I have seen the same thing also happen to japanese. Once you get involved/accused by the police you can kiss your job and career good-bye.

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Why didn't she at least get up at the next station and leave/move to another car?

Don't tell the 25 minutes was how long it took to arrive at the next station? If so, what the hell... Why did she wait so long before moving?

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You don't have to assault the groper but you can do something! Gropers are generally cowards so it doesn't take much to get them to stop. I saw a teenage girl being corned by this creepy old guy who got up right behind her. All I did was tap him on the shoulder and give him a dirty look. He got out at the next stop.

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dolphingirl.

Grabbing his arm to restrain him already is assault in legal terms. Pls, tell us how you would do it without violating the law.

I teach self-defense and also all the legal implications(part-time).

Granted might work on some guys but the more savvy guys will take you do the cleaners.

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What did you expect? Everyone around you sees you're getting fondled and you're just standing there letting it happen. As far as the other passengers know, this is how you get your jollies. Their expressions were probably a reaction to the "wanton pregnant lady who has no shame and has her boyfriend do this to her in a public place". While there is the possibility they wouldn't have helped you if you HAD objected, your inability to object guaranteed their non-involvement

Are you kidding me???! Let me give more details: The guy got on TWO STOPS after me, sat right next to me even though the carriage was half empty - then suddenly gets down on the floor on his hands and knees (I was sitting) and starts running his tongue up my leg. I was 9 months pregnant and very obviously not with this person. I was terrified. I looked 2 or 3 people in the eye opposite me pleading for help and both of them looked straight down to the floor. I wasn't speaking but I was obviously panicking. And you think the passengers who saw all of that are going to think I was probably enjoying it????!!!

What is wrong with you???! Who in their right mind would ever think a pregnant foreign woman in that situation is getting her jollies??!

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miamum.

Sorry, got to say sounds like something from a bad/perverted Pron Movie. Not saying it isn't true but a long way from your average groping case.

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Zenny11 - yeah, I have to admit looking back, part of the shock and surprise was that I had been in Japan 8 years and experienced nothing but politeness and respect. When I am finally about to pop with baby #3 I get chikan'd??! What the hell??! Which suggests to me - as many psychologists say - it is not about a sexual thrill and more about power. Wasn't exactly at my foxiest!

You're right it was not an average groping case, in fact, it was far MORE obvious than a groping, which can actually be very subtle. This wasn't subtle at all.

I would like to think next time if I wasn't pregnant (and didn't have the kids with me) I would knee the guy in the face. But no-one can say how they would react in those circumstances, until you are actually faced with it you just don't know.

I have to say though - I DO understand why people are worried about standing up for someone in that situation, especially as a foreigner.

But please - if someone is obviously in trouble as I was - do something to help! I wasn't about to do a runner - unless waddling off at 2 miles an hour constitutes doing a runner!

Does anyone know what the police would do if you are being groped and you beat the guy to a pulp? Would you syill be charged with assault or would it be self-defence?

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But no-one can say how they would react in those circumstances, until you are actually faced with it you just don't know. True words and very accurate.

As for your question not sure I would guess it depends ...

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Aaaargh, formating got messed up.

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It sounds like this woman had a perfectly reasonable reaction: she waited until she got to a safe place and contacted the authorities. Maybe she felt too threatened or intimidated to make a fuss on the train--we don't know what exactly he said or did to her.

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A lot of guys here are perplexed about why women don't do anything. That's because you are men. Forget about the decades of brainwashing you have received telling you that men and women are the same. It's not true. No matter how much women want to feel that they can do anything men can do etc etc, the fact is they are different. No man I know would allow himself to get groped unless he was enjoying it. If the groper was a gay Mike Tyson guy (i.e bigger and someone you think could hurt you), a man would still say stop, or leave. So, the reality is that for whatever reason, even in 2010 women who are high educated will often just freeze and not be able to do anything. Crazy, I know, but ask women around you, and you will find so many who have experienced chikan who say they were just too scared or whatever to do anything.

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Okay here is my advice for anyone in that kind of situation. I speak as a person who has stopped fights on trains and off, between Japanese, gaijin, drunk or otherwise -and also someone who has been able to wake up drunk sleeping guys in the morning who are lying all over a seat making several people stand, and stop other obnoxious behavior. All without punching or yelling.

Go from the easiest and gentlest, non-confrontational steps, and then progress if they don't work. Ie. If a guy is touching you on a train, move that part of the body away. If that doesn't work, tell him quietly to stop. If that doesn't work, go to another part of the train, or get off. Why allow something you hate to continue? If you can't immediately move or none of that works, then maybe you can start talking or screaming and pleading for help. If that doesn't work then bite, scratch or kick or whatever. But don't let it continue.

My point is that there is a lot between doing nothing and beating someone up. Most times, a simple soft word will solve a problem. Or getting yourself out of the situation.

Often a woman won't go to the help of another because she is scared. A man? Well, a lot of men have lost their masculinity. Damn shame! Too many girlie men around. And on the other hand, too many guys who are too quick to get physical. If I saw a chikan situation, i wouldn't immediately start punching. (You can always be mistaken, and you can also get yourself in trouble as others have pointed out). Humans have to learn that you can solve problems without violence. But, if doesn't hurt to be able to defend yourself or others in a worse case scenario. To the commenter who said that he thought he saw a drunk touching a woman's breasts against her will.. I am amazed you didn't do anything.Truly! Why not just approach them and say "Suimasen, daijoubu?" You'd probably then know what's going on pretty fast. . And if you weren't willing to confront the guy, then go to the 3 station employees you mentioned and tell them. You can always hide behind them.

There is something wrong when educated people just do nothing! How can people go to school for 12 years or more, and just do nothing in simple situations? People need to use their brains. And parents need to start educating their daughters and preparing them mentally of unfortunate situations, which may occur. (And the old fashioned "just kick them between the legs" is dumb advice, but seems to be still given out). P.S I am not a trained martial artist, boxer or anything, and I don't fancy myself as any kind of tough guy street fighter. But you can't let bad behavior continue. Harden up people - mentally and physically.

And as for the poor woman who was dragged to the toilet on a train and raped and nobody did anything. My 70 yr old father OR MOTHER would have somehow gotten between them, and I'd like to think that in a worst case scenario that even if the young girlie men couldn't do anything that when I become old and frail, I would spend my last breath going out helping someone in that situation. People are pathetic these days.

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Miamum, you have my sympathy and none of what I wrote above applies to you. A woman in your situation is obviously thinking first and foremost about the health of your baby.

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I sincerely hope that none of the posters who are skittish about helping a woman get rid of a perv are the same people who were cheering that old guy for getting riled up about phone manners on the train. One's definitely illegal, while the other is NOT. Funny thing is, I bet if that old guy saw some woman getting groped, he'd pretend to be asleep. BTW, you don't have to lay a finger on the pervert to help. all you have to do is yell, Oi! Achira chikan desu yo! at the top of your lungs while pointing at the offender. What if he actually IS the boyfriend? That's the beauty of it, even if she actually wants it, it's still illegal. Public indecency and all. That way there's no touching and you're far less likely to get charged with assault. Have a video phone? Even better. Record them as you yell your accusation. If he gets violent, there will be irrefutable proof that he was the aggressor. The police will likely confiscate your phone, but that's a small price to pay for freedom.

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Every time this comes up my mother-in-law says "How come this doesn't happen to me?"

And we all laugh...

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No one deserved to be groped on a train. HOWEVER! for 25 minutes? If I witnessed a blatent groping on a train, I'd be the first to snatch that guy up and take him to the police myself. But if I saw it happening for 25 minutes and the woman isn't doing or saying anything?....I'd probably think thier a happy couple. She's an idiot too.

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Gurukun.

As was said. You take him to the cops and they say WHERE is the groped lady to press charges. And it is your word vs his = guess who wins?

While you march him through the station there are tons witnesses seeing you mishandling him, how many witnesses to the groping that will join you at the Koban?

That is the real problem. Plus, your company won't be happy with you not showing up and all due to a false charge at the police-station = kiss your job goodbye.

This is the reality and that is what matters, not being the good guy, hero or acting correctly.

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In a statement, Kashiwa Chief of Police Hisao Kase said, “It is truly regrettable that a police officer should commit an act like this. I would like to apologize to the victim.”

Why apologize? He wasn't found guilty, it is just an accusation at this stage. Funny how this "boss cop" immediately goes against one of his own people, in favor of some young girl who is making an accusation rather than stating something more neutral as "we are investigating the matter and don't want to jump to conclusions".

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If a man is accused of groping or stalking, it is immediately believed by everyone. Seems that the "seriousness" of the crime is more important than the truth.

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'My point is that there is a lot between doing nothing and beating someone up.....And parents need to start educating their daughters and preparing them mentally of unfortunate situations, which may occur'--I totally agree with you here yasukuni.

'Forget about the decades of brainwashing you have received telling you that men and women are the same'--Don't agree with this, though. If anything, many women in Japan are brainwashed that they are not equal to men and that they exist to please men and there are lots of Japanese men who have been brainwashed into thinking that women are just sex toys for them to use as they please. As you pointed out women/girls need to be taught to stand up for themselves and men/boys need to learn that women are to be respected as equals.

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dolphingirl I 150% agree with you - and maybe by the time my daughter is an old woman, Japan may be part way there

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Dolphin girl, I didn't say that men were better than women, or higher than them. But they are different.

Women can only stand up for themselves to a point. Next time a fire starts in a building, it most likely won't be women going in to rescue men. And in the end if a woman is being harassed, another woman may not be able to help her.

Don't get me wrong. Men who grope women on trains are pathetic. As much as I say violence isn't the answer, I would have to work hard not to beat the guy up. On the other hand, like I said, women who are groped and say nothing amaze me - but women are like that and it shows how different they are. I think they need to learn to do something more than just do nothing.

And I think men should man up and help them. That may seem neanderthal to you, but if you get in a bad situation, you'd be better off with me around than some woman who can lecture for ages about equality of the sexes and how men should or shouldn't behave.

Miamum, I hope so too, but the reality is that it's now 2010, and men do bad stuff to women, both in Africa, Japan and the US etc. It's not going to go away.

For what it's worth, I think the best thing you can do as women is to train your sons if and when you have them, to be decent men. Every groper/racist etc was one a cute little baby boy. Scary. But something went wrong somewhere.

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What would be a week on JT without a demented cop story...

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'women who are groped and say nothing amaze me - but women are like that and it shows how different they are.'--Okay, yes men are physically stronger than women, in general, but the reason that some women don't say anything while being groped is because they haven't been taught how to defend themselves not because of their gender.

'I think the best thing you can do as women is to train your sons if and when you have them, to be decent men.'--YES!

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A lot of people are being pretty judgmental about her even though she is the victim. We have no idea about her circumstances.

What if she has been a victim of rape or abuse in the past? Would you still blame her for being unable to confront the perv?

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vulcan at 09:49 AM JST - 18th December If a man is accused of groping or stalking, it is immediately believed by everyone. Seems that the "seriousness" of the crime is more important than the truth.

Spot on vulcan. There's been no due process, no confession from the alleged criminal, and yet even the Chief of Police feels confident enough to issue a public statement condemning this guy. What hope does he have of a fair trial? I'm pretty sure there's immense pressure on the other cops now to do whatever is necessary to obtain a confession or evidence (up to and including manufacturing evidence like we saw recently in other cases?) simply because their boss has stated this guy is guilty.

This guy deserves an acquittal simply on this basis, because his access to due process has been hopelessly compromised.

It sucks for the woman if her allegations are true, but it sucks for all victims when the cops mess up.

Let's not get stuck in the Politically Correct trap here. There are victims of far more heinous crimes where there simply isn't enough evidence or the cops mess up and the alleged perpetrator has to be released. Due process doesn't disappear simply because the victim is a woman, that's just sexist.

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frungy, thanks.

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Dolphin Girl " but the reason that some women don't say anything while being groped is because they haven't been taught how to defend themselves not because of their gender."

But as a man, I would ask why they don't move or run. So I think it IS a gender thing. If I were being groped by an 8 foot, 400 pound MMA fighter on a train, I probably would be not be able to defend myself either - without getting seriously hurt. And, for that matter, I have NEVER been taught by ANYONE how to defend myself. What makes you think all men are taught self-defence? But, anyway, I wouldn't sit there and take it for 25 minutes. And I don't think many men would. You are saying that women are taught to not even run away?

You may be right in what you say, but I honestly think the days where women were taught to just be delicate flowers who defer to everything and everyone are long gone.

Last post - women need to be taught to get out of nasty situations, and men need to be trained to not abuse women. Unfortunately, things aren't improving.

PS, I think men and women are incredibly different so it's almost impossible to compare them. Most men would feel like their Christmases had all come at once if they were groped by a woman/women on a train or anywhere.

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I am with Yasukuni.

Nothing to do with being trained in "Self Defense".

It is about if you got what it takes to fight or not. "Self Defense training" and MA are misnomers, they won't give you the fighting mindset and instinct(they can bring it out if it is latent). If you don"t have it you won't get it by punching a bag, carrying a gun, etc.

There is training that can unlock it but once unlocked it is hard to turn off again.

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For what it's worth, I think the best thing you can do as women is to train your sons if and when you have them, to be decent men. Every groper/racist etc was one a cute little baby boy. Scary. But something went wrong somewhere.

Very well said Yasukuni. I would add to that teaching your daughters some sense of self-worth not to take this crap. Quite simply if every woman smoked a guy who did this, they wouldn't do it! And yes I KNOW I didn't fight back when it happened to me, but that was because of the baby, that was why I froze to the spot. Not for 25 minutes though, it was less than 5, and I eventually moved. I triple dare the guy to try it again now I'm not pregnant!

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That 24-year-old woman has had 24 years of being taught, "Don't kick up a fuss, don't make yourself the center of attention, defer to your superiors, men are better and more important than you, and you are to blame when men sexually harass you." Maybe no one outright said that, but that's what culture teaches women.

And then men blame them for freezing and not stirring up a fuss when men abuse them.

It's really easy to say what you think you would do in that situation, especially if you're working from the perspective of privilege as a man in a male-oriented society. But you have no idea what you would do if you were a 24-year-old woman with all the social and cultural messages they receive. You just don't. No matter of martial arts or training will help. When something like that happens, often you just freeze. Your mind races, you start considering what you should do, weighing those decisions, and in the front of your mind you think, "SOME GUY IS GOING TO CALL ME A LIAR, SAY I WAS JUST A VINDICTIVE B***H OUT TO DESTROY THIS GUY'S LIFE. THEY'RE GOING TO DISSECT WHAT I WAS WEARING AND EVERY LOOK AND GESTURE I MADE UP UNTIL THIS ASSAULT. IS IT WORTH DEALING WITH THAT?"

And then she does report the crime and all the men come out and say she's a liar out to ruin this guy's life because false reporting rates exist at all (the same as for other crimes, but no one calls those reporting theft or assault liars). They nitpick what she was wearing and say that women who wear short skirts want to be assaulted. And other women see this and then when the same thing happens to them in the future, they are hesitant to report it.

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