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What awaits 2 Americans accused of helping Ghosn flee Japan?

115 Comments
By YURI KAGEYAMA

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They Ghosn be here a while.

19 ( +23 / -4 )

Whatever happens they will always be martyrs to many.

-6 ( +19 / -25 )

Plea bargaining.

12 ( +17 / -5 )

too bad for these two, but hopefully the foreign coverage of their treatment gains lots of international coverage and the joke of the Japanese Just Us system that assumes guilt will be on show for all the world.

13 ( +34 / -21 )

You never know, Japan might ask them to join the SDF and work for Japan, since the USA has sold them out.

-14 ( +10 / -24 )

Does any of this make sense?

They also argue that jumping bail is not a crime under Japanese law. That is technically accurate,

Japanese prosecutors say they have enough evidence to convict the Taylors.

If convicted, the Taylors face up to three years in prison and a fine of up to 300,000 yen.

They were arrested for something that “technically isn’t a crime” but prosecutors say they have enough evidence of that non-crime to convict them.

Sounds like a fishing expedition to me...

17 ( +36 / -19 )

Whatever happens they will always be martyrs to many.

I would rather be a jackass to many and not be in jail

19 ( +24 / -5 )

Obviously, the end game is to get Ghosn back in Japan, so probably they'll hold them until they get some dirt on either Ghosn's son or wife, who both have American citizenship and can be extradited. Ghosn won't give himself up for the Taylors, but he may do for his son or wife if either of them is dragged over to Japan.

14 ( +21 / -7 )

The cost of Japan losing face, that's the real crime. They smuggled Ghosn out from under their noses.

15 ( +29 / -14 )

This is a pathetic attempt by Japan to save face!

13 ( +31 / -18 )

They were arrested for something that “technically isn’t a crime” but prosecutors say they have enough evidence of that non-crime to convict them.

The article does a very poor job of explaining this. Violating bail conditions is not in itself a crime, and prosecutors aren't pretending otherwise. The Taylors have been arrested on suspicion of harboring and enabling the escape of someone who has committed a crime. That crime is not bail jumping. It's the original criminal charges Ghosn was facing.

15 ( +22 / -7 )

No opinions, Just questions -

According to the Vanity Fair article, the airport manager accept and envelope with US $5000 of $10000 ‘tip’ first claiming it was too much to accept to expedite the loading of the ‘speaker cases’, boarding and departure. A load worker returned the envelope at loading time, claiming the manager could not accept any ‘tip’. Did this happen this way?

Ghosn implied to French media that Japanese aided his escape. "Were there Japanese among those who helped you?" Ghosn replied, "If you think you can get out of this country without a minimum of local complicity, you are deluding yourself. Ghosn acknowledged he received help from Japanese collaborators, "Prosecutors will have to move heaven and earth to find them, scan the phones, question all those who have worked with me ..." It will not be easy to find out who his co-conspirators were. - Is this true?

16 ( +17 / -1 )

Obviously, the end game is to get Ghosn back in Japan, so probably they'll hold them until they get some dirt on either Ghosn's son or wife, who both have American citizenship and can be extradited. Ghosn won't give himself up for the Taylors, but he may do for his son or wife if either of them is dragged over to Japan.

Could be risky. Japan has already proved itself as a coward. The UN is probably watching this carefully too. (Incidentally, Japan still owes Ghosn compensation for unlawful detention). If Japan shows the contempt for the UN that it has done, that is risky. Japan is now a Division 2 country and will probably run squealing to the UN someday.

2 ( +17 / -15 )

no lawyer allowed to be present. joke.

10 ( +19 / -9 )

If convicted, the Taylors face up to three years in prison and a fine of up to 300,000 yen.

Guilty of what? That is the main point and totally ignored in the article.

2 ( +14 / -12 )

no lawyer allowed to be present. joke.

Exactly!!! And they are calling it justice!!! This country is just one step away from being same as China or N.Korea...

7 ( +21 / -14 )

Hostage justice at work.

Will be interesting to see how someone trained to resist interrogation will do going up against prosecutors and police accustomed to easily intimidating suspects into a confession.

They have probably been counseled to remain silent before the extradition. They would be well served to remain silent.

It cannot be understated how important remaining silent is. Anything you say cannot help you. It will only hurt you.

8 ( +20 / -12 )

First off, shame on the US for agreeing to this. If the shoe were on the other foot, Japan would never play ball.

What awaits them? Hours of questioning each day without a lawyer present. Even with a lawyer present, not much changes, seeing as how lawyers here are in the pocket of the police and prosecutor anyways.

Japan doesn't have a modern, functioning legal justice system.

12 ( +27 / -15 )

I think that I am ashamed of Japan. Save face at all costs. Give me a freakin break.

3 ( +20 / -17 )

Japan may give them a mission to get Ghosn out of Lebanon and bring him back to Japan, then no charge against them. Let them do it if they want to do it.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

The Taylors have been arrested on suspicion of harboring and enabling the escape of someone who has committed a crime. That crime is not bail jumping. It's the original criminal charges Ghosn was facing.

Your message is confusing. You say ghosn committed a crime, but then you say he was facing charges. He hasn't committed any crime seeing as it hasn't been proven yet.

0 ( +11 / -11 )

Ok so we know they helped him escape!

so that makes them Guilty!

We know they got paid, Japan can't grab any of that money!

So what is it they hope to accomplish with a trial? Who arranged the actual escape and payment? Thats easy his wife and family, ok thats no secret!

Do they wanna who made the plan, they did so all questions can be answered. Do they really need to drag out a trial and waste tax dollars trying to determine who what where and why? This should be go to jail ho straight to jail do not pass go do not collect $200??!

The Japanese machine wasting tax dollars for a pony show!

This is what is needed?

Oh JAPAN Please say it isn't a vendetta, governments are supposed to act different not childish!

2 ( +11 / -9 )

If the Taylors are guilty of a crime fine, and bail jumping is not the crime, however if the Taylors are being brought before prosecutors aka Americans, then why are the Japanese at the airport not being brought in as well "The box passed through airport security in Osaka" Airport security failed and hence played a part in this and shouldn't be waved as human error at least with all the scanning, dogs, manpower at the departure areas.

10 ( +11 / -1 )

The Taylors have been in jail in Boston since May; that's almost 10 months already. Will this period count toward their sentence in Japan if they are convicted?

9 ( +10 / -1 )

too bad for these two, but hopefully the foreign coverage of their treatment gains lots of international coverage and the joke of the Japanese Just Us system that assumes guilt will be on show for all the world.

That's what I'm hoping for.

They were arrested for something that “technically isn’t a crime” but prosecutors say they have enough evidence of that non-crime to convict them.

Sounds like a fishing expedition to me...

welcome to the JOKE that is the JP Justice system

no lawyer allowed to be present. joke.

Exactly!!! And they are calling it justice!!! This country is just one step away from being same as China or N.Korea...

Actually, those 3 countries are the only ones in the Far East which don't allow lawyers to be present. China, N Korea, and Japan.

The cost of Japan losing face, that's the real crime. They smuggled Ghosn out from under their noses.

exactly

Your message is confusing. You say ghosn committed a crime, but then you say he was facing charges. He hasn't committed any crime seeing as it hasn't been proven yet.

exactly! IN FACT, they didn't even CHARGE him with ANYTHING when he left!

this 2 guys are real heroes.

we must encourage heroes to liberate victims from oppressing systems.

Of course! If this had been China and they had liberated the 2 Canadian Michaels, they would have been seen as heroes.

-5 ( +7 / -12 )

*It cannot be understated how important remaining silent is. Anything you say cannot help you. It will only hurt you.*

Under no circumstances trust the translator. They will often say during interrogation break "off the record .......". He / she, although claiming to be impartial, work for the police / prosecutor.

5 ( +12 / -7 )

And the game enters the 2nd quarter. All poised for the ensuing battle, but the final siren is a long way off.

As an aside, I've always been intrigued by , "How did Ghosn - arguably the most watched and well known face in Japan at the time - travel from his Tokyo apartment to Osaka airport on public transport including the shinkansen, without being noticed at all?"

This show of a gross lack of competence by authorities, is probably the main reason for the Hunt to the ends of the earth - an attempt to save at least a smidgeon of face.

That's why there is no limit to the cost of this pursuit. $100smillions will be spent - including vast taxpayers money - on what was/is essentially an in-house accounting/leadership control problem.

3 ( +11 / -8 )

Your message is confusing. You say ghosn committed a crime, but then you say he was facing charges. He hasn't committed any crime seeing as it hasn't been proven yet.

Fair enough. The Taylors have been arrested for suspicion of harboring and enabling the escape of someone who is suspected of committing a crime.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Worst case situation a 3 year sentence, and a $3000 fine for $600,000. I wouldn't even waste money on a lawyer, just do the time and enjoy the money when I get out.

9 ( +10 / -1 )

If you smuggle someone, anyone out of Japan without going through the legal process, you'll find yourself facing a string of charges.

If the person you smuggle is in addition fleeing from justice, then you can expect to face even louder music.

This is the kind of risk they understand in the line of work they have chosen. When you get caught in the cogs of the legal system, you get chewed up. The only question is how minimal will be the chewing up.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

"How did Ghosn - arguably the most watched and well known face in Japan at the time - travel from his Tokyo apartment to Osaka airport on public transport including the shinkansen, without being noticed at all?"

With a mask and a hat, maybe glasses too. It's very easy to go unnoticed in Japan. Plus most Japanese people are not very observant of their surroundings at the best of times.

8 ( +12 / -4 )

In opening up the "Taylor" wound, Japan may find itself having to justify the impartiality of its legal system and governance. The question of whether moving Goshn out of Japan is bail jumping and justified in certain situations will surely be a discussion point! ( I know everyone has their emotional viewpoint, but now we are talking from the legal point of view.)

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

In principle, just as in the U.S., people are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

No, this is not true in here. You must prove yourself you're not guilty. We've had numerous cases like that in here. I remember, while still living in my homecountry, hearing of Shoji Sakurai.

But 99% of criminal trials end in convictions.

Forced confession. If a suspect repents during the interrogation process, prosecutors offer a lighter sentence. And if they are interrogating you day and night, you'll probably admit sooner or later. In my homecountry, such confession would not be taken into consideration at the court, by the judge. It's up to the plaintiff to prove the defendant is guilty. That's burden of proof, semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit.

Why do we actually need courts in here? Why do we need a Judge? We'd save huge ammount of money if we just got rid of them, not even considering all the staff there. Just thugs, media, police and prosecutors will do the job. Always tell the suspect's name and the suspect will be always guilty in the eyes of the public. Job done.

-3 ( +8 / -11 )

@nandakandamanda. When you get caught in the cogs of the legal system, you get chewed up. The only question is how minimal will be the chewing up.

I agree, it is best to avoid getting caught up in the legal system, but the legal system can also get chewed up.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

If anyone is locked up here before divine destruction hits -the universal judgement cometh suddenly and unexpected for the Amons.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"How did Ghosn - arguably the most watched and well known face in Japan at the time - travel from his Tokyo apartment to Osaka airport on public transport including the shinkansen, without being noticed at all?"

Ghosn wasn't hiding at all in the Shinkansen, he got greeted there by some people there.

Then he made a big party on a Sushi restaurant in Osaka on his last night in Japan. One of my friends was in that party.

-9 ( +4 / -13 )

You Americans need to come down from your "justice" high horse.

Japanese police don't kill civilians like in the US. (1,127 people in 2020 vs. 2 in Japan)

Japanese police do not stop cars at random and confiscate cash they find in the car or truck like in the US. ($20 billion in the last decade)

10 ( +18 / -8 )

Here’s how they did it @browny1 9:13am.

By some ‘stealthy evasion’ techniques and some *really ingeniuius, disguises**.*

The most high profile ‘foreigner’ in Japan, wearing a hat and a surgical mask walked out of his house Tues, Dec 29 @ 2:30p, while under surveillance by private detectives, to the Grand Hyatt. Inside*, he went upstairs, changed clothes *and* walked out another door to the Shinkansen station. (Ingenious!). *Then, three adult ‘foreign’ males travelled together in the packed train. ‘Two’ originally checked into the Star Gate Hotel near KIX but ‘three’ males returned to the room that evening. (No one complained about the ‘extra guest’ or asked for a surcharge).

Authorities did not know(?) he left Osaka that night @11:30 by plane until they read it it the newspapers and confirmed it by watching international TV news.

Read the article below for more details:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/07/how-carlos-ghosn-escaped-japan

4 ( +5 / -1 )

"As virus-era attacks on well armed US Asians rise, past victims look back"

Soon a bloody buddha christian war will spread.. China and US will engage into a cataclysmic event

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

He hasn't committed any crime seeing as it hasn't been proven yet.

Skipping bail is a crime in Japan.

The Taylors have been in jail in Boston since May; that's almost 10 months already.

So all you Ghosn worshippers are so full of hatred for Japan, critical for him being arrested for many serious crimes, and even given bail to live and walk around one of the most prestigious areas of Tokyo, but no criticism for these two criminals treatment in the USA?

hypocrates.

2 ( +11 / -9 )

Japan is ok its:

"Satellite images reveal North Korea took recent steps to conceal nuclear weapons site"

They say NK may set it off...

0 ( +4 / -4 )

How many black boxes purported to contain audio equipment have a pulse, and if required could lecture, although muffled, all aspects of/to the manufacture and selling of automobiles?

I don’t accept or believe a word of The Great Escape, Ghosn Boxed Clever, mini-series Netflix guaranteed.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Plea bargaining.

Why don’t you elaborate on the plea bargaining system here in Japan? You throw this out there as if it’s the same as the system in the US, but it’s not even close.

I’m curious just how much you know about this system in Japan.

-5 ( +8 / -13 )

But! What are they being charged with? Is ‘helping Ghosn escape’ a formal charge?

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Then he made a big party on a Sushi restaurant in Osaka on his last night in Japan. One of my friends was in that party.

Unfortunately your friend must be pulling your leg. The authorities have Ghosn on surveillance cameras exiting Shin-Osaka station at 7:24 pm, entering room 4609 at the Star Gate Hotel (near KIX) at 8:14 pm, and the black box being wheeled out at 9:57 pm. Not much time there for a big sushi party.

9 ( +9 / -0 )

I wouldnt be surprised to hear that Black Tidings in Singapore just received a remittance for something......

2 ( +2 / -0 )

The article still doesn't say what they've been charged with. How can you extradite and take somone into custody without filing charges? Is there a new law called "helping Ghosn flee Japan" on the books?

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Well if theyre not given special treatment then i guess theyll be treated same way as others who were arrested

1 ( +4 / -3 )

expat, here is the charge, in Japanese. 東京地検特捜部は2日、米国籍の親子2人を犯人隠避容疑で逮捕した。Translate that as you like.

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/pickup/6386608

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Tentative translation of above. ’Suspicion of harboring or helping/enabling a criminal to escape'............ ?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

snowmountain - thanks for the explanation & link.

I guess my question was asking more than the actual how as in "way of doing it" as opposed to the "how did authorities/officials allow it to happen?"

I suggested incompetence, which they are now trying to make up for - like wiping the egg from their collective faces.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

I suggested incompetence, which they are now trying to make up for - like wiping the egg from their collective faces.

better to be in jail, than maimed by a racist crazy vehicle driver..head on a swivel with a ...

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Is that the best pic of Ghons they could've found? This is another way the Jmedia wants to villianize him and make him look like a bad person when all he did was escape so he can have a fair trial. We don't know if he did that the media and jpolice said because they all lack the one MAIN thing to convict a person : SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE!

2 ( +8 / -6 )

I'll bet the Prosecutors will divide the charges to ridiculously lengthen the detention. 23 days, smuggling Ghosn from his apartment to a hotel. +23days, smuggling Ghosn from the hotel to the train station. +23days, smuggling Ghosn from train station A to train station B. +23 days, smuggling Ghosn from train station B to the airport. etc. etc.

Japan Prosecutors are a nasty bunch, but they sure are resourceful.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

There's actually a ruling on Ghosn. And doesn't look good for Japan.

UN panel says former executive should be compensated for ‘arbitrary’ detention, though it made no judgment on allegations against him

We don't know yet if Ghosn is a criminal or not. But we know that Japan must compensate him.

0 ( +9 / -9 )

@Robert CikkiToday 10:11 am JST

No, this is not true in here. You must prove yourself you're not guilty. We've had numerous cases like that in here. I remember, while still living in my homecountry, hearing of Shoji Sakurai.

If your "star" is someone who got clipped in 1967, then maybe things aren't so bad after all. Accidents do happen.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

@browny1Today 12:10 pm JST

A low alert state, as befitting of a country that's still relatively safe and low-crime. You benefit from this low-alert state every time you use an airport in Japan, as you just get waved through or go through only a cursory examination without hassle. Or do you want your airport trips in Japan to represent the horror stories from the post-2001 TSA? That would probably stop the Ghosns.

As it is, thanks to Ghosn they are considering revising Article 97. In effect, Ghosn and the Taylors endangered a mercy measure with their selfishness.

-2 ( +7 / -9 )

those who harbour and enable criminals to escape persecution can rot in a cell

Whatever you think about Ghosn's case is irrelevant when foreigners try to interfere in Japanese legal system.

Those Americans should be charged with full fury of law

-6 ( +7 / -13 )

Whatever you think about Ghosn's case is irrelevant when foreigners try to interfere in Japanese legal system.

The issues are very similar: Japan uses hostage justice to force confessions instead of seeking to do justice via a system that protects the rights of the accused.

I know it’s extremely hard for most Japanese people and Japanophiles to admit Japan is not perfect, but it’s a fact that the Japanese “justice” system is only concerned with convictions and cares little whether justice is actually served.

-4 ( +9 / -13 )

""They also argue that jumping bail is not a crime under Japanese law. That is technically accurate,""

So what crimes these two men commit ? The two men evaluated their options and decided to rescue Mt Ghosn based on this fact.

They should be set free, if this was not a high profile and Nissan was not after Mr. Ghosn no will even hear about it.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Here is the law, against which the these two guys are charged.

刑法 第103条

罰金以上の刑に当たる罪を犯した者又は拘禁中に逃走した者を蔵匿し、又は隠避させた者は、3年以下の懲役又は30万円以下の罰金に処する。

5 ( +7 / -2 )

In short, harboring an escapee (from custody) is a crime.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

@socrateos Today  02:36 pm JST

In short, harboring an escapee (from custody) is a crime.

there's no "escapee" anywhere in that sentence.

harboring a criminal is a crime.

-5 ( +5 / -10 )

Here is the law, against which the these two guys are charged.

刑法 第103条

罰金以上の刑に当たる罪を犯した者又は拘禁中に逃走した者を蔵匿し、又は隠避させた者は、3年以下の懲役又は30万円以下の罰金に処する。

Thank you.

Seems clear even if just google translated

4 ( +5 / -1 )

As a foreigner in this country, I feel and know I am obligated to follow the laws in this country. That said, I would hope that the laws here would equally apply to me as they would a local national. However, I have read and had incidents happen that contradict that. To give a couple examples (I can provide more),

I was involved in a car accident (my one and only). The reason for the accident was due to a local national running a red light and hitting my car. I had two people in my vehicle with me at the time. The local police were called and did their on-scene investigation. The police determined that I was at fault even though they had people tell them it was the other driver. Their reasoning, if I had not of been there, the accident wouldn't have happened. Poor logic, and I believe it was because I was a foreigner and the other driver was Japanese.

Second incident had to deal with theft. I bought an item online from a Japanse business. I transferred the money to the indicated account and had all the documentation from the beginning of the transaction to the end. Even email correspondence between me and the other party. The item was never sent to me and the money was never refunded. I went to the local police station to file a complaint. The police gave me the run around about how I needed to properly inform the business owner that I was going to the police to file a complaint by sending them certified documentation that I needed to get from the Post Office. I did as instructed but could never get the required paperwork. The Post Office associates told me they didn't have any documentation like what the police officer indicated. Again, I am assuming the police didn't want to help because I was a foreigner and actually wanted them to do their job.

For the Japanese commenters, can you honestly say that foreigners are treated fairly in this country? I am not trying to nit pick as I want Japan to succeed in all areas. I still see some places locally that have signs, "Japanese Only", even though its supposed to be illegal. The more I read Japanese news, the more I begin to see that higher class Japanese can get away with just about anything, but a foreigner will have everything possible thrown at him/her even if its the same crime.

10 ( +17 / -7 )

Tango2179

Since living here, I have been involved in three civil court cases. Two for myself and one for my brother-in-law. All brought by landlords. I prepared and presented my own cases, and in all three won them and received compensations.

15 ( +17 / -2 )

Tango2179 spot on.

Long term resident here as well and experienced similar issues to yours with same outcomes.

My wife and I are preparing to leave Japan for good next year and go back to my home in western Europe.

Though we love Japan and wish the country to succeed some aspects won’t change in this island.

And to stay on topic I repeat myself again,shame on such a great democracy like the US to leave it’s sons in the hands of a Justice system closer to some questionable countries rather than the west.

These guys need to face justice,but not with torture and psychological violence.

1 ( +10 / -9 )

bokudaToday 02:46 pm JST

harboring a criminal is a crime.

This question has already been asked and answered in front of the court, Now jurisprudence is that the suspects and accused count.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1jL0a7SXeqV3sWhh7a1akjqnJZQIkYYPbQ63vTuypifE/edit?usp=sharing

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Well, I'm going to guess it won't be a suspended sentence awaiting them, as is the case with people who do far worse than these two have, and it won't be bail awarded, as is the case with those arrested for worse; it'll be worse than those who are found guilty of murder here.

-5 ( +6 / -11 )

They are toast.

And they are not going to get any help from America too.

This is so simple. They are to be made examples of. That is it. Its a save face campaign to show the world that Japan can get their pound of flesh and that no matter what. Japans version of justice will be served one way or the other. I over heard two of my co-workers talking about this case. They said if America can get Osama Bin Laden then Japan can get the two guys that helped the evil one escape. I am serious the (evil one.) Meaning Carlos, I wonder what Carlos is feeling right now about these guys? I guess we can speculate. Hey, I paid them so its not my problem. Or Okay I should go back and face charges and make a deal for these guys.

Imagine what Carlos is feeling and thinking right now.

I wonder. I do.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Here is the law, against which the these two guys are charged.

刑法 第103条

罰金以上の刑に当たる罪を犯した者又は拘禁中に逃走した者を蔵匿し、又は隠避させた者は、3年以下の懲役又は30万円以下の罰金に処する。

罪を犯した者又は拘禁中に逃走した者

Someone who committed a crime or being detained

Ghosn fits neither of those. So I think the Taylors' point is valid.

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

To clarify the above, if the law wanted to included people "charged with" committing a crime, it would surely state so.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

*include

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

If convicted, the Taylors face up to three years in prison

Let's say they get out in about one year or perhaps a little more. That's well worth it for the seven-figure fee that Ghosn paid them (each). I might take that deal. Just hang in there incarcerated one year then you can enjoy your nice retirement. Japan's prisons are a piece of cake. These people have had a golden opportunity.

The police determined that I was at fault even though they had people tell them it was the other driver.

Is this story real?

I bought an item online from a Japanse business.

What "item" and what "Japanse (sic) business" specifically?

1 ( +4 / -3 )

therougouToday  05:58 pm JST

Ghosn fits neither of those. So I think the Taylors' point is valid.

It's valid. But it had its day in court, all the way in Showa 24 and it lost, with purposive interpretation (and really, how most people use the words unless they have a special sympathy) winning out. As a result, the article was not reworded. See the link I put up in the previous post - it's taught in the textbooks.

By the way, it seems in Showa 5 a rather broad interpretation was made on the terms 蔵匿 and 隠避, so there's no chance of evasion on that issue either.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Couple of special forces wannabes. They'll collapse under questioning like a 99 yen umbrella in a typhoon. Definitely special.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

犯人 is someone who found guilty by court and escaped, or if the warrant to arrest is issued and yet you knowingly helping such a 犯人. Skipping bail is a separate event. The state let the person go under certain conditions. He/she is not in state custody. Then he/she fails to follow the bail. If Japan doesn't have a criminal punishment for that separate crime, it is not a crime at all. What we see now is the state Japan is putting the article 103 on the act that never happened. Because Carlos didn't escape the prison and there wasn't warrant issued on his arrest.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

@Kazuaki Shimazaki Today 06:57 pm JST

It's valid. But it had its day in court [...] and it lost, with purposive interpretation . As a result, the article was not reworded.

OK, I get that...

They should use the language properly instead of changing the meaning of words.

If citizens cannot understand the law. How can they aby it?

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Unfortunately this article appears to be factually incorrect:

WHAT ARE THE FATHER AND SON ACCUSED OF DOING?

https://casetext.com/case/in-re-extradition-of-taylor-1

in violation of Article 103 of the Japanese Penal Code

... shall be punished by imprisonment with work for not more than 2 years or a fine of not more than 200,000 yen.

Even the jail time and penalty seem to be incorrect pity we are not provided with any relevant information as to why these numbers are different?

You can check the translation of the penal code here:

http://www.japaneselawtranslation.go.jp/law/detail_main?re=02&ia=03&vm=02&id=1960

WHERE WILL THEY BE TAKEN AND WHAT HAPPENS THERE?

The Taylors, like other suspects, can be held up to 23 days without any formal charges

The detention can be extended with "rearrests," if more charges are tagged on

I doubt that this is correct due to this being an extradition and the extradition treaty is in play:

You can view the Treaty here:

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/volume%201203/volume-1203-I-19228-English.pdf

please see Article VII.  page 3 of the treaty

The requesting Party shall not, except in any of the following circumstances, detain, prosecute, try nor punish a person surrendered under this Treaty for an offense other than that for which extradition has been granted, nor extradite him to a third State, provided that these stipulations shall not apply to offenses committed after the extradition: 

You can read the listed exceptions but they don't seem to fit in this case.

So as you can see the treaty says they can't be re-arrested with further crimes unless those crimes have been filed with the extradition and the casetext does not include any other crimes.

Japan has only one course of action and that is to begin criminal proceedings they can not delay further with additional crimes as that will be a direct breach of the treaty and they will put at risk of any future extraditions If they do then this will become a precedence in which all Americans (and possibly any other country) will use to get out of being extradited to Japan.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

There is no doubt that father and son, have weigh up the consequences, and will act accordingly.

It must have crossed both there minds, the current scenario, to face the weight of the J Justice system would be a risk. So I suspect both have prepared for this outcome.

Or else why hide/masquerade Carlos Ghosn as some alleged well audio device, musical instrument.

I have traveled many times, as we all have, thought this Airport and that.

9/11 made an unequivocal case for future airport security, that would guarantee safe and dependable air travel.

So are we seriously suggesting Carlos Ghosn took flight without fear of detection in a box, supposedly containing a method of producing sound?

3 ( +3 / -0 )

"If citizens cannot understand the law. How can they aby it?"

"Intelligibility of Laws to al"l is a beautiful concept totally negated by drafting techniques, legalisms, usage of a language other than by its plain meaning, etc.

That's the reason why you have Solicitors, Barristers, paralegals, and all that malarkey.

In other words, non-qualified people are NOT prepared to fully comprehend the meanings of a rule and what it aims to achieve.

Interpretation techniques can only be learned if you are legally qualified.

You do not acquire such skills by reading Wiki or watching CSI.

How will you know which Section must be cross-referenced with another?!

You are just fooling yourself by pretending otherwise.

Reading comments from JT "Solicitors" evidence that.

Clearly.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Interpretation techniques can only be learned if you are legally qualified.

you love that, don't you?!

Trials in Japan 5~6 years ago where much worse.

The defendants were not allowed to speak.

They just get in front of a scholar that reads a bunch of documents.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

(Harboring of Criminals)

Article 103 A person who harbors or enables the escape of another person who has either committed a crime punishable with a fine or greater punishment or has escaped from confinement shall be punished by imprisonment with work for not more than 2 years or a fine of not more than 200,000 yen.

The second part about escaping from confinement is obviously not about Carlos. So they apply the first part- enable the escape someone who has committed a crime. For being regarded as someone who has committed a crime you need a valid court sentence, which doesn't exist in this case. In other word we are in Japanese way of seeing it: you are regarded as someone who has committed a crime because we, the state Japan, not court, says so. You are a criminal by their definition and not by the court sentence. Then, why would anyone civilized wouldn't want to escape such a system. Ironically, by applying the Article 103, they are giving the reason of Carlos' escape.

Escaping nazi camps or gulag were both crimes under the laws of those lands. And? Those who did or helped are now heroes.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

Tango2179 Next time, hire a lawyer.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

3years and a suspended sentence! Made for Hollywood movie. No cameras are allowed because we will see it soon in a movie!
2 ( +2 / -0 )

"Interpretation techniques can only be learned if you are legally qualified.

you love that, don't you?!"

I CERTAINLY do.

For a very good reason:

I am qualified. London University, then College of Law of England & Wales (unless you think British institutions are worthless).

Obviously do not know everything but enough to spot those who know nothing, yet insist they do.

Easy to know solely by spending 2 seconds reading "JT Jurisprudence".

I pretty sure both the Japanese Prosecutor(s) and their American counterparts are dully, fully qualified.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

.

According to the VANITY FAIR interview with Michael Taylor, Taylor DID NOT receive payment for organizing Ghosn's escape.

Ghosn payed Taylor NOTHING. NADA.

The 1.3 million was payed by Ghosn SIMPLY TO COVER THE COST OF THE OPERATION.

VANIRY FAIR asked: Why did you do it?

Taylor's response was : "*De oppresso liber**" (liberating the oppressed.)*

Sheer misguided idealism on Taylor's part.

Sheer self serving selfish greed and cowardice on Ghosn's part - irresponsibly and recklessly leaving those ( and their families) who "helped" him destroyed . (Greg Kelly etc as well

THAT is GHOSN"S record*. *THAT is his MO .

Ghosn has shown once again the narcissistic yellow-belly unethical fraud. he is

Although God's mills grind slow - they grind exceedingly small.

For Ghosn too.

.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

In Kosuge, as well as in other jails, you have to become a robot in order to survive there. Not eating enough, one shower per week, not enough blanket and clothes, never watch anything excepting your foot...good luck to those guys! Ghosn is gone so authorities need guilty guys, here they are.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

How brilliant - The father actually was special forces in his past - US Army Green Beret to be exact. Google that.

N. KnightMar. 3  07:13 pm JST

Couple of special forces wannabes. They'll collapse under questioning like a 99 yen umbrella in a typhoon. Definitely special.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@shiratori

For being regarded as someone who has committed a crime you need a valid court sentence, which doesn't exist in this case.

That might sound logical but it's not how it works. The way Japanese courts have applied article 103 is to ask whether the person in question subjectively believed that they were helping someone evade the justice system. Guilt depends on their state of mind at the time they enabled the escape. It does not require a formal conviction of the person who escaped. If it did, only perpetrators of failed escapes would ever be prosecuted while the successful ones would walk free. The key question with the Taylors is whether they knew Ghosn had been charged and whether they believed he had no intention of ever returning to Japan to stand trial. If the answer is yes, they will be convicted.

@James

So as you can see the treaty says they can't be re-arrested with further crimes unless those crimes have been filed with the extradition and the casetext does not include any other crimes.

That's correct but if Japan wants to add additional charges, the US can consent. It's common practice and I see no reason why they wouldn't. It would be entirely up to the Secretary of State. If you want more info see Berenguer v. Vance, 473 F. Supp. 1195 (D.D.C. 1979).

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Ghosn payed Taylor NOTHING. NADA.

Taylor sounds like an idiot and/or just wanted to line himself up with a celebrity businessman PR and make himself famous.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Three years in jail? They better plead guilty immediately, serve time and be free again. Imagine being detained for years for interrogation and pre-trial sessions. They will be rotting by then.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@nishikat,

The police determined that I was at fault even though they had people tell them it was the other driver.

Is this story real?

-No, I just felt the need to lie. facepalm...Of course it is real. I was making a right hand turn on a green arrow. The Japanese driver coming from the opposite direction did not stop at the red light. He actually tried to drive around me and didn't try stopping. He ended up almost hitting me head on, destroying my car in the process. I'm sure everyone has seen their fair share of incidents like this happening. I see it all the time in my area.

I bought an item online from a Japanse business.

What "item" and what "Japanse (sic) business" specifically?

-This happened a number of years ago so I don't remember the specific business name and the item was nothing illegal or questionable. It was an automotive item that was being sold from a business in Hokkaido. That is all I can recall.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Back on topic please.

I just felt the need to lie

OK

I'm sure everyone has seen their fair share of incidents like this happening

I haven't, never. But I do I know stories of accidents of gaijin and Japanese drivers and they were settled according to road law fairly. But I know that accidents in Japan are often 30/70, 60/40, etc. generally when it comes to liability. Was it 100/0 against you?

It was an automotive item

What automotive item? I always use a credit card. If I talked about it repeatedly so much I'm sure I would remember the exact business details. OK, an automotive item that was not illegal. Can you by more specific?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

What I've learnt today (and yesterday):

Torture is present.

Words do not mean what they mean.

Prosecution can detain people undefinedly.

Its all about convictions, not actual justice.
0 ( +3 / -3 )

Interesting to see criticism of the justice system in Japan and descripts of the prisons as harsh environs. The system of justice in Japan is no more or less fair than in the US, where the Taylors are citizens. In fact, it will be less grim & severe. The incarceration rate in Japan is significantly lower. The cost of obtaining legal counsel is dwarfed by the fees charged by attorneys in the US. As for a fair trial, in light of their actions, such will conducted with all the levity afforded a Japanese citizen.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

If they were getting extradited to another country I would be quite happy about it, but the USA validating the Japanese judicial system with this is not something to be glad about.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Arrest. Re-arrest. Further arrest. Endless re-arrest until they confess. Imprisonment. Expulsion. No foreseeable change to the Japanese institution of hostage justice.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

"The Taylors, like other suspects, can be held up to 23 days without any formal charges..." The UN, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch really need to get involved, here. This is "justice" on a par with China and North Korea.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@M3M3M3

If it ai all about Taylors' state of mind, they shouldn't be arrested at all. They say- we liberated the oppressed. It is not a crime. They are heroes.

No, it is all about Japanese "justice" system where "a criminal" is someone called like that by the state and not by the court. Then the J-courts apply norms of common law, like broad interpretations, to the criminal law, and by doing this they put label "crime" on the acts that are not written in Penal code (like skipping bail). Evading such a "justice" system is the right way of thinking. What the Taylors miscalculated is their passport. Good wake-up call for an American who thinks the US will fight for a single citizen in exchange of keeping military bases in Japan.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@shiratori Today 05:36 pm JST

If it ai all about Taylors' state of mind, they shouldn't be arrested at all. They say- we liberated the oppressed. It is not a crime. They are heroes.

Even if they sincerely believed they were liberating the oppressed, it does not contradict their awareness, even purpose, that they are harboring a criminal and interfering with judicial process. At best that can be a justificatory factor they can place against an already completed Tabestand (definitional) first stage, and one with no chance of success.

As previously explained, the crimes of Ghosn are not bail skipping, but his acts as CEO. You might also consider why the law is carefully written so bail-skipping by itself is not a crime - it is due to the low exigibility (expectations) of the defendant (he can also lie in court). These low expectations do not apply to mercenaries like the Taylors so the law is written such that the principal does not incur criminal liability for jumping bail, but anyone that helps him will.

As for whether the definition is too broad, I suggest you look at every other thread in JapanToday's crime section. You will notice how almost all of the articles refer only to "arrest" rather than convictions, but almost all the discussion acts as if the arrested are guilty and often wish harsh consequences on them. Yeah, to the layman, a criminal is when he is arrested, not when he is convicted, and for that reason the formulation does not cause confusion in the layman. And for the guy clearly cutting things close, well, that's when he should get a lawyer. Or at least buy a frigging textbook that might tell him these things.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@Kazuaki Shimazaki

the law is written such that the principal does not incur criminal liability for jumping bail, but anyone that helps him will.

So, in Japanese system books the act itself is not a crime but assisting it is. More reasons to escape such a system or help someone to do it. Taylors are not criminals. Neither is Carlos. They are free minded civilized people who fight for human dignity and liberation. I don't judge them.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

just logged in to mark your words

So, in Japanese system books the act itself is not a crime but assisting it is. More reasons to escape such a system or help someone to do it. Taylors are not criminals. Neither is Carlos. They are free minded civilized people who fight for human dignity and liberation. I don't judge them.

yep, there it is!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

ThonTaddeoMar. 3  08:53 am JST

The Taylors have been in jail in Boston since May; that's almost 10 months already. Will this period count toward their sentence in Japan if they are convicted?

It should. That is usually the case in the United States.

Since the defendants were detained at the request of the Japanese prosecutors it probably will, but who knows for sure.

If you can read Japanese you may be able to find an answer in 六法全書、刑事法。

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Just wait: 60 Minutes and the BBC will run some big stories about the saga of these two and it will develop into "Look how backward Japan is" all over the American news... which will make Japan change some of their procedures very quickly from sheer embarrassment.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

What awaits them is hours of endless “questioning” with sleep deprivation and no legal representation. Re-arrest to arbitrarily extend their incarceration. Ludicrous arguments against bail even though they are being held on an island and their travel documents will be taken from them.

Even if they are smart enough and strong enough not to break, the judges are likely to use really tenuous reasoning such as “It cannot be said that the defendants did not commit a crime.” (So much for the burden of proof falling on the prosecution.) and a conviction to save the face of the prosecution.

In the highly unlikely event of an acquittal, double jeopardy does not apply in Japan, look for the prosecution to appeal the ruling or re-indict them.

Make no mistake, this is a vengeance prosecution because Japan cannot get its hands on Carlos.

And I realize that some may disagree with me and I respect that. But if I were being held on trumped-up charges with no hope for a fair outcome and I had them means, I’d do a runner too.

Honestly, the best outcome for all would be a conviction, a suspended sentence and a quick deportation.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

CaptDingleheimerToday 12:06 pm JST

......which will make Japan change some of their procedures very quickly from sheer embarrassment

Nah, i've been living here major part of my life and such thing will not happen. What will happen instead, the government will send a formal note, create an explaining website and throw leaflets at them. Like this https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-ghosn-justice/hostage-justice-japan-fights-back-with-an-internet-faq-idUSKBN1ZK0L2

There may be a new mascot representing fair justice or so.

GdTokyoToday 02:00 pm JST

Re-arrest to arbitrarily extend their incarceration; “It cannot be said that the defendants did not commit a crime.”;Make no mistake, this is a vengeance prosecution because Japan cannot get its hands on Carlos.;..

I completely agree with that, my words. But many folks here in Japan think he is guilty, they are guilty. Even few quite smart and educated folks told me recently. I've heard even reasoning "But look at Ghosn! He always looks like an angry dog when he is in TV. There must be something to it. I think the is guilty".

So many Japanese people don't understand the presumption of innoncence, semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit and many other basic things. Everyone just jumps to the conclusion that he is guilty because he fled. And because he fled, he must be guilty. And because he was guilty, he fled.

He fled because he couldn't get a fair trial and he was being held like an animal before the actual trial. How long was he in isolation BEFORE the trial? He would have to prove his innoncence later, which is completely ridiculous. And no, I don't question if he has done what he is being accused of or if he hasn't. In a civilised country, that would be up to the judge. Not the prosecutor.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@kevin

In the US Army you get a medal for being potty trained, so being US Army Green Beret is really not all that much cop.

Nevertheless (despite what you see on TV) it's rare that that ex-special forces personel would puff their chests out and boast about their exploits to magazines and TV (even US ex-sf)

I should imagine that the US Army would be thoroughly embarrassed with these too clowns.

(By the way they nicked the green beret idea from the commandos, to who's skill and intelligence they have always aspired to but never reached.)

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

What?? You’re telling me a mega-rich person used greedy idiots and unsuspecting innocents to escape possible legal consequences, only to then leave said idiots and innocents to twist in the wind while he lives in the lap of luxury somewhere where he will be immune to the repercussions of his actions??

Say it ain’t so, Gho!

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

What awaits 2 Americans accused of helping Ghosn flee Japan?

It will be a heavenly experience full of opportunity to provide years of anecdotal reminiscence for the future.

There will be time to complete mastery of the Japanese language especially the imperative form.

And when not being guided, there will be time to sit in long periods of silence to contemplate the following mealtime or day.

Also, it will be a time to lose weight thanks to the low calorie Japanese food that will be served.

There will also be the opportunity to test ones body against the extreme climatic differences of bitter cold in the winter and oppressive heat in the summer.

Don’t forget to turn the light off before bedtime though.....

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Japan is doing the ilegal detention thingy again to the Taylors, they never learn.

UN panel says former executive should be compensated for ‘arbitrary’ detention, though it made no judgment on allegations against him

the UN will have to make another panel and do another fine to Japan, yet again.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

In all fairness Japan should brave Ghosn as a hero, the man took a lousy inking car manufacturer and turned it in to a well organized and profit making giant and all the 20 years of service he took a compensation well below other chief executives in the industry. Then when they thought they didn't need him any more they threaded him as a criminal. It show one never to help a snake to grow, it will thank you with a poisoned byte. I love Japan for many reasons but wow I just can't forgive them for doing this mean act.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

ZvonkoJonathan: I feel sorry for what you have felt.

I am more mortified for the "so-called bail" jumper who had turned down a job offer from an American company. Ford had felt little appetite, unlike GM, for tax money in 2009 but had to issue junk bond of $8 billion last April. Carlos could have played a much bigger role in turning their EV technology into a money-making machine. Nissan executives, merciless back-stabbers, owe him a lot to the booming market in China and EV technology that he had laboriously engineered. Without his leadership, their grapes will eventually have to turn sour. Nobody will shed tears any more than for executives of Olympus, Toshiba and numerous other kin-minded corporations. Recalling the sprits of Jigoro Kano, Judo founder, I truly am sorry.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

his sadly reflects upon the US judicial system - not a Biden or Trump issue, but moreover the way the system works.

How can they have committed a crime in Japan, if the crime has not been decided ?

This sounds questionable to me. I don't see any judge in America deporting someone without a clearly defined crime. I'm guessing once again you guys are re-writing what actually happened to your own agenda.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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