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Japan wants U.S. to extradite Americans who helped Ghosn flee

62 Comments
By YURI KAGEYAMA

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Prosecutors say Ghosn broke the law by violating bail conditions

It appears the prosecutors don't know their own laws.

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ202001080059.html

18 ( +22 / -4 )

They just can't let it go, if they push it I'll bet the defence will expose Japan's "Justice" system, interigation techniques, lack of representation, no family contact and its reliance on confession rather than proof. No democratic country would throw their citizens into such a biased, one sided system. Good luck with that.

22 ( +28 / -6 )

He is innocent and another Nissan board member did something similar to what G is being accused of but no charges. Accounting practices are unbelievably ambiguous in Japan and this is another case of "let's pin it on the Gaijin". Do not extradite!

25 ( +29 / -4 )

They're so pissed that they didn't get him they're going to arrest everybody else. Hold on there's a knock at the door. Sorry folks I just got arrested in conjunction with him because I read about him in the news.

22 ( +26 / -4 )

Well said Cricky.

Japan has been revealed as backwards in regards to how suspects are treated, and must be seething that they've been caught out. I love it.

Well done to Ghosn.

23 ( +25 / -2 )

@ExJourno

I wouldn't exactly say Ghosn squeaks when he walks, but the way they treated him (and still do Kelly) versus the way they treated Saikawa speaks volumes.

If the Japanese (In)Justice System can't have Ghosn, they'll gladly take it out on anyone else they can get their hands on.

13 ( +15 / -2 )

"Under current law, "crime of escape" only applies to jail or detention facility escapees, not those who flee while out on bail."

a) "crime of escape" type of charge.

As per your link.

Not a charge the Prosecutors have in mind.

"Prosecutors say Ghosn broke the law by violating bail conditions that required him to stay in Japan, mostly at his Tokyo home."

b) "breach of bail conditions"

Another type of charge.; Breach of conditions.

"Figures show that as of the end of 2018, 26 individuals fled from authorities after their prison terms were finalized while they were out on bail."

So, what happened to the "escapees" then?

1) Were they not prosecuted anymore (on account of bail jumping not constituting a crime in Japan) and, allowed to remain free for all eternity?

2) Not charged 'a posterior'i because Japanese prosecutors are so ignorant and totally unaware their own Laws allow bail jumping?

I would submit that the Prosecutors know their Laws extremely well.

Obviously the writer of that article doesn't.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

"A judge has decided an arrest warrant should be issued for them,"

Because the prosecutors demanded one?

Proof that judges have no authority whatsoever. What country would extradite its citizens to a farcical justice system like this?

13 ( +16 / -3 )

"Japan wants U.S. to extradite Americans who helped Ghosn flee"

its not Japan, its a handful of JN prosecutors, and lawyers watch your words JPAN , many already think Japan is one big fanatical imperial nationalistic race based-family- and during the current US political climate may bring Japan a rude awakening, especially with Trump at the helm. It will be I'm white and I say so.

5 ( +11 / -6 )

Japan does not extradite its citizens on the FBI most wanted list. So why should the US extradite its citizens to the Japanese hostage justice system?

18 ( +20 / -2 )

" No democratic country would throw their citizens into such a biased, one sided system. Good luck with that."

Yes sir!

9 ( +10 / -1 )

"What country would extradite its citizens to a farcical justice system like this?"

1) A country that expects other countries to reciprocate by sending back bail jumpers to face the music?

2) A country where a duty to the Court if paramount?

3) A country in which Contempt of the Court is a crime and consequently dealt with severely?

4) A country that would never allow bail jumping to go unpunished?

5) A country that dreads setting this type of precedent, regarding them as a clear and open challenge to the Judiciary's authority?

I could simply carry on but that would be a futile exercise.

-3 ( +6 / -9 )

Quote "Japan has issued arrest warrants for Michael and Peter Taylor for allegedly helping a criminal escape."

If Japanese citizens came to the USA to help a CEO criminal escape the country I promise the Americans would ask for the same in return.

-4 ( +7 / -11 )

A normal thing to do, regardless of Ghosn issue.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Japan you lost this fight just let it go to avoid further embarrassment

8 ( +12 / -4 )

trump has not given up a US criminal to the UK. In fact, he has pardon some actual criminals for popularity. It would look bad for his tough guy MAGA facade.

I do not see this happening unless Japan plans to make a public announcement to investigate Biden and his son! LOL!

5 ( +8 / -3 )

It appears the prosecutors don't know their own laws.

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ202001080059.html

If they know the law, they won't start with all of these in the first place.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Japan wants U.S. to extradite Americans who helped Ghosn flee"its not Japan, its a handful of JN prosecutors, and lawyers watch your words JPAN , many already think Japan is one big fanatical imperial nationalistic race based-family- and during the current US political climate may bring Japan a rude awakening, especially with Trump at the helm. It will be I'm white and I say so.

So who's in Japan that really want real justice instead injustice for Ghosn? Japanese media, they just in the same side with prosecutor.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Lawyers for the Taylors said in a legal document filed Monday that "bail jumping" is not a crime in Japan and, therefore, helping someone evade their bail conditions isn't a crime either.

According to the filings, Michael Taylor is being charged under Article 103 of the Japanese Penal Code. This makes it a crime to either harbor or enable the escape of someone who has committed a crime. The affidavit emphasises that Ghosn entered the various hotel rooms which Taylor had booked in Tokyo and Osaka. The usefulness of Article 103 appears to be that a.) it only requires the escapee to have committed a crime (rather than formally convicted), and b.) it doesn't restrict escape to situations of police/prison confinement or detention.

Even if we accept that Ghosn committed no additional crime by jumping bail, there is still the issue of every other crime Ghosn is accused of committing. In order to determine whether the Taylors are guilty of harboring and enabling the escape of someone who committed a crime (any crime, not just bail jumping), the court will have to make a factual determination on whether Ghosn committed any crimes. It could turn into an absentia show trial of Ghosn even though the outcome would be limited to deciding the Taylor's culpability.

https://www.scribd.com/document/462324152/Michael-Taylor-Extradition-Complaint

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@Peeping_Tom

Deputy Chief Prosecutor Takahiro Saito said Japan has issued arrest warrants for Michael and Peter Taylor for allegedly helping a criminal escape.

First, Ghosn is not yet a criminal, because his guilt is not yet proven in a court of law. If he is not a criminal, he is not an escaping criminal. There's also no helping a criminal escape. Side note: Saito again just points out the "truth" about Japan's justice system which assumes you are guilty until proven innocent.

Second, the charges should be helping a person violate bail conditions which again is not a crime in Japan.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

if law permits bail jumping and its fin say $. 3000,- these fellows might pay .. but io doubt whether the US govt would like to hand over them .. always US plays big brother to any all the more now under Mr Trump. if allows great.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

money power plays everywhere sir.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Plenty of Japanese have broken laws overseas including court orders forbidding them to leave jurisdiction. To to date not one has been extradited to any foreign country. If US authorities comply with this absurd request it will open a monstrous can of worms.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

@justasking

First, Ghosn is not yet a criminal, because his guilt is not yet proven in a court of law. If he is not a criminal, he is not an escaping criminal. There's also no helping a criminal escape. 

It doesn't work like that. The question of whether Ghosn commited any crimes will be a question of fact determined by the judge based on the evidence.

Imagine that I rob a bank and after a highspeed police chase I end up at your house where you let me hide out for a while until you arranged a private jet to whisk me out of the country. Do you really think there would be zero consequences for you as long as you remind people that I was never convicted of anything in a court of law?

1 ( +5 / -4 )

What makes you think America is going to hand over their citizens when they won't even hand over that American who killed a boy in UK and fled home?

Because the Taylors do not have diplomatic immunity.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Doubling down before the movie comes out I see.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Because the Taylors do not have diplomatic immunity.

It will never happen.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

If Japanese citizens came to the USA to help a CEO criminal escape the country I promise the Americans would ask for the same in return.

Yes, but you cannot always get what you want.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Someone tell these mugs to “let a dead dog lie”. You ain't gunna bring him back, nor get any semblance of redemption. Walk away, take some family time ( think about what it would be like to be locked away from yours under dubious circumstances, betrayal and trumped up charges?) go sit under a waterfall or something a rethink your life and motives! I know you all want to have a good huddle, feel the warmth of your misguided colleagues; keep on gambaruing, buts its time to let go fellas. The more you push the more ridiculous and embarrassing you become. Fold boys, fold! Let Reiwa see an end to this sort of garbage.

If you walk 1000 miles in the wrong direction, turn back.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Plenty of Japanese have broken laws overseas including court orders forbidding them to leave jurisdiction. To to date not one has been extradited to any foreign country. If US authorities comply with this absurd request it will open a monstrous can of worms.

Yes thats correct and not only the US. I remember a documentary done by Rosemary of CNN, about an "eater" or cannibal who had done his mischief in Paris but is now free in Japan. I guess he got to have others limbs, and eat them too!

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Breathe in.

Breathe out.

Move on.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

As I said before ~ Japan simply seems foolish.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Imagine that I rob a bank and after a highspeed police chase I end up at your house where you let me hide out for a while until you arranged a private jet to whisk me out of the country. 

You're putting the cart before the horse here by starting off by saying that you committed a crime. A better analogy from Ghosn's perspective would be if you showed up at my house because the police were chasing you and falsely claiming that you had robbed a bank, and me arranging a jet for you because I know as well as you do that the police are not going to see things your way.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

CrickyToday  07:11 am JST

They just can't let it go

Yep. In typical fashion Japan's like a dog with a bone.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

ThonTaddeoToday  11:34 am JST

You're putting the cart before the horse here by starting off by saying that you committed a crime. A better analogy from Ghosn's perspective would be if you showed up at my house because the police were chasing you and falsely claiming that you had robbed a bank, and me arranging a jet for you because I know as well as you do that the police are not going to see things your way.

This line sums it up perfectly: "because I know as well as you do that the police are not going to see things your way." This is a culture where evidence, nuance, and context are seen as excuses (iiwake) so if he had the chance to leave why would he stay knowing he would never get a fair trial.

The bottom line issue for everyone living in Japan should not be whether he is guilty or innocent, but that he would never get a fair hearing... because if it can happen to him it can happen to anyone.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Hey, Japanese Todai boys, we are LAUGHING at your superior intelligence. Which country in their right minds would expose ANY of their citizens to your sense of “justice”? QED.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Japan doesn't know what it's doing

6 ( +8 / -2 )

I'm sure the Judge will take into consideration that sending them to a country that boasts a 99% conviction rate, would be a dubious idea. And the yearly criticism from world bodies chastising the Japanese treatment and procedures of both accused and found guilty. Japan makes it too easy to deny extradition just on humanitarian grounds.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

CrickyToday  01:42 pm JST

I'm sure the Judge will take into consideration that sending them to a country that boasts a 99% conviction rate, would be a dubious idea. And the yearly criticism from world bodies chastising the Japanese treatment and procedures of both accused and found guilty. Japan makes it too easy to deny extradition just on humanitarian grounds.

That's why Japanese government and courts get so frustrated. They don't understand this "humanitarian" thing of which you speak.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Well, of course they do.

Taking the issues from first to bottom, the available information simply does not support any other conclusion other than Ghosn being at least a high probability accused. His lawyer may bluster and complain, but he has also submitted broad-spectrum (not targetted) requests for discovery. This indicates that the material in the case file plus any material he already had access to is sufficient to "cook" Ghosn, and he is praying something is in the material he does not have access to. Or more darkly he's hoping he'll bump into some convenient material he can use for blackmail. Anyway, the court recognized his fishing expedition and refused his request.

Second, people should not conflate "criminal" and "illegal" or "unlawful". Escaping bail might not rise to a crime in Japan, due to the kind heartedness and restraint of the system, which Ghosn ruined I might remind everyone. But breaking a deal is definitely at least a tort.

Third, in common usage, when word criminal covers suspects, accused, defendants as well as convicts. The section the law is in emphasizes this because most of it concerns actions that are only useful to people who have not yet been convicted, anyway. I suggest not trying to knowingly twist language.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Kazuaki ShimazakiToday  01:49 pm JST

Well, of course they do.

Taking the issues from first to bottom, the available information simply does not support any other conclusion other than Ghosn being at least a high probability accused. His lawyer may bluster and complain, but he has also submitted broad-spectrum (not targetted) requests for discovery. This indicates that the material in the case file plus any material he already had access to is sufficient to "cook" Ghosn, and he is praying something is in the material he does not have access to. Or more darkly he's hoping he'll bump into some convenient material he can use for blackmail. Anyway, the court recognized his fishing expedition and refused his request.

Second, people should not conflate "criminal" and "illegal" or "unlawful". Escaping bail might not rise to a crime in Japan, due to the kind heartedness and restraint of the system, which Ghosn ruined I might remind everyone. But breaking a deal is definitely at least a tort.

Third, in common usage, when word criminal covers suspects, accused, defendants as well as convicts. The section the law is in emphasizes this because most of it concerns actions that are only useful to people who have not yet been convicted, anyway. I suggest not trying to knowingly twist language.

The issue is, however, he was never going to, nor will he ever, get a fair trial in Japan.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Deputy Chief Prosecutor Takahiro Saito said Japan has issued arrest warrants for Michael and Peter Taylor

Saito is one of those educated idiots.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Japan wants...but will never get.

Napan should reform its justice system before asking.

Like USA is doing something about Floyd's death. It is called evolution.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

These narcissistic peoples cannot seem to realise they are the ones in the wrong.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@m3m3m3m3

Imagine that I rob a bank and after a highspeed police chase I end up at your house where you let me hide out for a while until you arranged a private jet to whisk me out of the country. Do you really think there would be zero consequences for you as long as you remind people that I was never convicted of anything in a court of law?

Your reasoning is not sound in your analogy. You have already assumed that Ghosn has broken the law, and J-Gov has evidence to prove it. You may have robbed the bank. But do the police know you robbed the bank and have evidence to prove it? Both conditions must be met to convict. The law that Ghosn has broken is probably some kind of immigration law. Japan has nothing else on him!

J-Gov has not been able to prove their case in public or to any international courts without implicating the J executives. It is the main reason why they were relying so heavily on forced confessions through imprisonment.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Im sure Ghosn is happy, guilty or not

Im not passing judgment; he got out of Japan

As for the 2 US guys, they took on that risk, but

I hope our politicians dont go into buffoon mode

and hand them over to Japan, for the reasons you

mentioned above about cake and eat it too mentality

(or limbs).

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Yes thats correct and not only the US. I remember a documentary done by Rosemary of CNN, about an "eater" or cannibal who had done his mischief in Paris but is now free in Japan. I guess he got to have others limbs, and eat them too!

He was considered a celebrity and was on all the TV shows. It wasn't until the foreign media and woman's family condemned J-TV that they stopped showing him on TV.

His family is wealthy and connected. They own the Sagawa publishing company!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

With an unique law culture, as crass as holding families apart, how to take advantage of international norms.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@yakyak

It will never happen.

The Taylors already appear to be planning to lose the legal battle. They've added a lawyer with close ties to Ivanka and Jared Kushner to their legal team. Their plan is likely to ask the the Trump appointed Secretary of State to suspend the extradition on humanitarian grounds, or some such reason.

@Numan

Your reasoning is not sound in your analogy. You have already assumed that Ghosn has broken the law, and J-Gov has evidence to prove it. You may have robbed the bank. But do the police know you robbed the bank and have evidence to prove it?

Sure, Japanese prosecutors will have to establish Ghosn's underlying guilt at the Taylor's trial, but that's not going to be very difficult seeing as the one key witness who could rebut the prosecution's case (Ghosn himself) may not be willing to appear.

@ThonTaddeo

You're putting the cart before the horse here by starting off by saying that you committed a crime. A better analogy from Ghosn's perspective would be if you showed up at my house because the police were chasing you and falsely claiming that you had robbed a bank, and me arranging a jet for you because I know as well as you do that the police are not going to see things your way.

We have an agreed upon system to resolve these differences of opinion. You can't just run or assist others in running from the police and courts just because you are personally convinced of their innocence.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@M3M3M3

The charge was helping a criminal escape. Ghosn is not yet a criminal. How hard is it to understand? If Ghosn escaped from prison, then those who helped him are liable. Ghosn didn't escape anything. He jumped bail and not a crime.

Let's reverse your logic. If ever they convicted the Taylors and turns out Ghosn was not guilty, what would happen? You cannot convict the Taylors because Ghosn guilt is not yet established, hence he is not a criminal and not a criminal who escaped.

If they want to get the Taylors, charge them with something else. I heard J-Prosecutors are good at that.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

The charge was helping a criminal escape. Ghosn is not yet a criminal. How hard is it to understand? If Ghosn escaped from prison, then those who helped him are liable. Ghosn didn't escape anything. He jumped bail and not a crime.

Ok, and which parts of Japanese law support this theory?

Because it's coming off as bro-law. I suspect the actual laws are a lot more detailed than what you're writing.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@justasking

Let's reverse your logic. If ever they convicted the Taylors and turns out Ghosn was not guilty, what would happen? You cannot convict the Taylors because Ghosn guilt is not yet established, hence he is not a criminal and not a criminal who escaped.

Incorrect. To the average person I can understand how your logic sounds reasonable, but it's not how the justice system actually operates.

A criminal conviction (acquittal, or lack of prosecution) in one proceeding is never definitive proof of whether someone has or hasn't commited a crime in a separate proceeding. It can be very persuasive evidence, but it's not definitive. You can have a situation where different courts reach opposite conclusions that are impossible to reconcile. One of the most famous examples is probably OJ Simpson who was acquitted of murder in a criminal trial but was later found to have killed the victims in separate civil proceedings.

You can have situations where someone is convicted of aiding and abetting a fugitive even if the fugitive is eventually acquitted, or is never prosecuted. The reason the justice system allows these seemingly contradictory decisions to stand is because it recognises that there are many reasons for why a prosecution might fail or never take place. These reasons are often unconnected to the defendants underlying guilt or innocence.

I'll try to illustrate this with another example: let's imagine 2 people are arrested for separate but interrelated crimes. The first is a John who is charged with soliciting a prostitute. The second is the woman charged with street prostitution. The john is convicted on overwhelming evidence that he solicited a prostitute. However, in a separate trial of the prostitute, she is aquitted because the police were not able to show a proper chain of custody for the evidence. Can the john now appeal his conviction on the basis that the woman was not convicted of being a prostitute? The answer is no, because the court in his trial was entitled to come to its own factual determination on whether or not the woman was a prostitute for the purpose of determining whether the john was guilty. The evidence supporting her conviction or acquittal in a separate trial may have been persuasive in making this decision, but it would never be definitive. Given the technicality of her acquittal, the court would likely not place much weight on it.

The bottom line is that factual findings (or lack thereof) in one case are never binding on another court in a different case. This might seem very strange, unfair or illogical to the average person but it's how the system works.

Ghosn didn't escape anything. He jumped bail and not a crime.

He escaped the jurisdiction of the court by illegally bypassing immigration controls. I can't imagine a greater degree of escape. Article 103 doesn't require the escape to be from a prison or police custody.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The Trump defending criminal agenda won't let extradite them..

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Carlos Gohsn bought the home in Lebanon with NISSAN money and now he was living there and refused to move out. It proves he misused NISSAN money to buy for his home. I have a lot of respect and admired for Carlos Gohsn in the past, but now I understand he has made some mistake by abusing his position and misused Company money for his own benefits. If he has done nothing wrong and then he will be still in Tokyo rather than in Lebanon.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

This will not happen, Why? trump is involved in this.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The prosecutors it appears do not understand the Japanese laws under which they operate. Where in the Japanese criminal code is bail jumping listed as a crime? Helping someone jump bail is not a crime in Japan. If anything at all, the Taylors may be charged with a minor immigration infraction which is not extraditable offence.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The prosecutors it appears do not understand the Japanese laws under which they operate. Where in the Japanese criminal code is bail jumping listed as a crime?

I bet they know the law a lot better than you do.

As such, how are they wrong about the laws they are asserting he broke? Please provide a copy/link of the actual law with your breakdown of how this situation doesn't fit.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

MaikuCJune 12 07:50 am JST

Japan does not extradite its citizens on the FBI most wanted list.

Did the US ever make an extradition request? Please post link supporting your comment.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I have a suggestion, if the Prosecutors office want's Mr. G so bad to cover their butt they should send out a elite force to Lebanon and snatch him, it's that easy, or may be not.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Ya right, Extradite a Green Beret!! it wont happen, but what could happen and it's only fair is that he pay the $2,800 penalty and move on.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Lets see, how much time and money , japan is going to waste on this case to save face and ego ???.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Rut roh Nippon...

Former Nissan CEO Ghosn Was Set Up By Company Executives: Bloomberg

https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/former-nissan-ceo-ghosn-set-124849196.html

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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