Judge OKs extradition to Japan of 2 men accused of aiding Ghosn escape

Perhaps the lawyers for these guys will make the case that since they don't have resident visas for Japan, then they are barred from entry due to coronavirus and therefore can't be extradited.

Told you this would happen. Further arguments with State Dept will do nothing, there's no legal forum unless the Defendants want to pay further to sue State, the the probability of winning is about zero. Money would be better put towards the Japanese law firm that will be needed to fight this in a Japanese Court. At least we know they can afford it.

This could go either way. Trump and Barr could stop it since Americans are special, or not, since Trump doesn't care about ex-military people who he thinks are suckers for going in the service.

@Oss

Based on the history of US extraditing their own citizens, there's a slim chance that these two will be extradited, given their connections within the system. It's highly likely that they will get a deal from the State Dept. and continue their operations on "extracting" out of regimes.

The Taylors are wanted by Japan so they can be tried on charges that they helped Ghosn flee the country last year

Is that a crime? The real crime is Ghosn being arrested for an internal company dispute.

Does this judge not understand that the moment these men step off the plane in Japan they will be arrested and sentenced to prison for helping someone to escape Japanese injustice?

Appeal and appeal again...

Uh-Oh....

Michael Taylor, a former Green Beret, ran a private security business initially focused on private investigations, but their caseload grew through corporate work and unofficial referrals from the State Department and FBI, including parents whose children had been taken overseas by former spouses.

the final decision rests with the State Department.

So they work for the State Department and the State Department has the final decision... My guess is they won't be heading to Japan anytime soon.

The Japanese Prosecutors have just bitten more than they could chew. If he is extradited then what? and if jailed in Japan the fall out is much worse.

I think The Japanese prosecutors hopped for the opposite when they filled for extradition.

Is that a crime? The real crime is Ghosn being arrested for an internal company dispute.

Even in case of Carlos Ghosn, is he really doing any crime at all? It's too premature for that from the beginning, since apparently there lot of conflict of interest inside Nissan, like this latest one that is being revealed.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/08/29/nissan-carlos-ghosn-coup-hari-nada/

Perhaps the lawyers for these guys will make the case that since they don't have resident visas for Japan, then they are barred from entry due to coronavirus and therefore can't be extradited.

Refusing to do PCR test prior 72 hours their departure can delay indefinetly their flight to Japan for extradition and is Taylor's right whether to take or not PCR test.

For those who think Japanese justice system is dubious. I think American justice system is as much doubtful as Japanese one. I recall a case a Japanese high school boy who was a great fan of America and visited U.S. was shot dead when he approached a house for trick or treat at the time of Halloween. The man who shot the boy was proved innocent. Also a super star of former NFL was freed despite he was deeply suspected of murdering his wife.

I hope Ghosn paid them enough to make up for the possible jail time.

I doubt they’ll be able to travel outside US , so Ghosn’s payment is their retirement fund.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Donald Cabell issued a ruling approving the extradition of Michael Taylor, a U.S. Army Special Forces veteran, and his son Peter Taylor, but the final decision rests with the State Department.

That's really kind of US justice system, while in Japan how many people extradtion request being granted by Japanese court despite number of request they got?

Perhaps the lawyers for these guys will make the case that since they don't have resident visas for Japan, then they are barred from entry due to coronavirus and therefore can't be extradited.

It will be interesting to see what rationality Japan comes up with.

I nice to wake up with some good news!

better would Ghosn, his wife and son here to stand trial.

Poor buggers! Now they’ll face indefinite incarceration and daily interrogations without a lawyer present until they confess to the charges the Japanese prosecutors bring against them whether they are factual or not.

“The issues essential to the future of the Taylors will now be addressed by the State Department, which, unlike the Court, can take into consideration Japan’s frequent refusal to extradite its own citizens in serious matters,

yep

the lack of precedent in Japan for ever charging ‘bail jumping,’

a very good point!

and the dreadful prison and prosecutorial conditions in Japan which have drawn the scorn of the world,” their attorney, Paul Kelly, said in a statement.

Hear Hear!

but their caseload grew through corporate work and unofficial referrals from the State Department and FBI, including parents whose children had been taken overseas by former spouses.

So the US gov has used them as well as parents to get back their children kidnapped NK style to Japan and this Kangaroo judge wants to extradite them?? OK.

what about extraditing ALL the Japanese spouses who kidnapped their children and took them to Japan, IF the US is going to send the Taylors to Japan? Didn't they violate US law when they took their kids illegally to Japan? Shouldn't this be reciprocal?

They would not take serious charge of the crime in Japan. They would not go to jail. Japanese prosecutors want to know everything on how they helped Ghosn's escape from Japan. If they confessed everything about Ghosn's escape, Japan would let them go home after they paid all money Ghosn gave them for the job. That is Nissn's money.

@Serrano

The Taylors are wanted by Japan so they can be tried on charges that they helped Ghosn flee the country last year

Is that a crime? The real crime is Ghosn being arrested for an internal company dispute.

Yes it is a crime, actually several different crimes relating to immigration laws and also aiding and abetting to commit a crime. They are facing 2-3 years imprisonment and several thousand dollars in fines if found guilty.

Ghosn was arrested for fraud and tax evasion not an internal dispute. He may or maynot be guilty and that is what the courts and lawyers were supposed to prove or disprove.

Although I do believe that the Japanese justice system is a designed with the prosecutor in mind and needs to be reworked but that is beyond the scope of this.

They can work on their Japanese language skills while doing time in the Japanese department of corrections. It'll be both punishment and a good educational experience for them.

Does that mean they'll also be extraditing that American woman who fled the UK on the false pretence of diplomatic immunity after killing a boy while driving on the wrong side of the road? I always thought the UK was a more loyal ally to US.

EXACTLY!

@vanityofvanities

For those who think Japanese justice system is dubious. I think American justice system is as much doubtful as Japanese one.

Yep... if not more so

“Lucy, you got some splaying to do...”.

I hope carlos paid them well because they’re going to jail for a long time. It’s not that their crime is particularly heinous. It’s that they made the NOD and the prosecutors look laughably incompetent.

For all you Ghosn worshippers, saying that his defense is he can’t get a fair trial would mean every single other person on trail should be acquitted, all incarcerated should be immediately released, and who have finished prison terms or fines should be pardoned and paid compensation.

you ghosn lovers have a strange idea of what justice is. No care for victims.

@serano

Yes it is a crime, actually several different crimes relating to immigration laws and also aiding and abetting to commit a crime. They are facing 2-3 years imprisonment and several thousand dollars in fines if found guilty.

Ghosn was arrested for fraud and tax evasion not an internal dispute. He may or maynot be guilty and that is what the courts and lawyers were supposed to prove or disprove.

Although I do believe that the Japanese justice system is a designed with the prosecutor in mind and needs to be reworked but that is beyond the scope of this

In another country there is law for helping bail jumping but not in Japan. Another charge is immigration offense and that is a non-extraditable misdemeanor.

https://jp.reuters.com/article/us-nissan-ghosn-idUSKBN23F30G

I hope the Taylors won’t have trouble with Japanese food.

I hope the Taylors won’t have trouble with Japanese food.

There are usually 3 choices: Japanese menu or Western one or Islamic one in jail. So no problem.

For all you Ghosn worshippers, saying that his defense is he can’t get a fair trial would mean every single other person on trail should be acquitted, all incarcerated should be immediately released, and who have finished prison terms or fines should be pardoned and paid compensation.

you ghosn lovers have a strange idea of what justice is. No care for victims.

Not Ghosn worshippers but also not Japanese justice system worshippers at all. If Ghosn is guilty, please give punish him according to applicable law. Not by left him undecided while keep changing his court date.

Law abiding one, like Greg Kelly still waiting his trial after almost two years by now. The problem is there actual crime to begin with? Why wait two years if there's any?

Only if your bias towards Japan would Ghosn breaking the law, running away is ok and acceptable.

Doesn't matter the crime, some outside people like Ghosn will always use Japan legal system to excuse running away from the Japanese legal system. Nice!

We should let a foreigner write Japan's legal system otherwise they cannot follow it, they cannot accept it. It's ok to break Japan's law they don't approve off. It's ok to run away.

"the lack of precedent in Japan for ever charging ‘bail jumping,’"

Civil Systems of Law don;t (hardly do) have Precedents!!!

They rely mainly on Statutory Law & interpretation.

Precedents are a feature of Common Law ONLY.

Japanese Law is NOT Common Law.

Common Law precepts are NOT applicable in Japanese Courts.

That's what happens (invariably) when non legal people think they can opine on legal matters.

Jeezus C.

We should let a foreigner write Japan's legal system otherwise they cannot follow it, they cannot accept it. It's ok to break Japan's law they don't approve off. It's ok to run away.

When Japanese justice system ever in public eyes before Ghosn escape? Is it really fair justice?

Why Japanese justice system let go Olympus, Toshiba, Takata, Kobe Steel scandal where their execs already admit plead guilty with plenty evidence to start with?

@sakurasuki

In another country there is law for helping bail jumping but not in Japan.

There is a law in Japan according to prosecutors; Article 103 of the Penal Code, which is what the Taylors have been charged under so far.

Another charge is immigration offense and that is a non-extraditable misdemeanor.

The Japanese system doesn't classify crimes into 'misdemeanors' or 'felonies' and the US-Japan extradition treaty doesn't draw any distinctions either. Every crime is potentially extradictable under the treaty. These domestic classifications of crime are only relevant in the context of interstate extraditions within the US, not internationally.

it was their job to extract people, and it worked. I don't see what interrogation is going to accomplish from a veteran of Special Forces. Make Taro have extra laundry to do is about it

Hiroto Saikawa is still free

These guys do contract work for the US State Department and private security work for them as well. My guess is the judge "allowed" the extradition knowing it will probably get denied by State Dept.

That obviously cant be proven.

But it makes the govt look like they are trying to appease the Japanese legal system somewhat. Judge ok's the extradition but State Dept shuts it down for the "greater good"... They will say the Taylors are an asset to the gov't and do essential work, yada yada.

They are mercenaries and took their chances. You do the crime you do the time.

I fell for these two modern heroes that just liberated the oppressed.

The Japanese justice is medieval and deserves to be exposed.

I still don't get the charges against Ghosn.

He was THE highest paid CEO in Japan making more than Akio Toyoda, Osamu Suzuki and Takahiro Hachigo combined.

He refused a US offer from the Obama administration to lead GM for double his Japanese salary in order to stay with Nissan.

Yet he's charged of stealing what amounts to a fraction of his yearly salary.

It just doesn't make any sense.

I still don't get the charges against Ghosn.

he got paid well and had vacations. Concepts in Japan of grave concern I guess

Saikawa exited under similar circumstances and not a day in jail.

Hypocrisy in Japan Inc for all the world to see, again

Based on the history of US extraditing their own citizens, there's a slim chance that these two will be extradited, given their connections within the system. It's highly likely that they will get a deal from the State Dep

and

that the State Dept should hold it until those child abduction cases are reciprocated is a smart play

There is an extradition treaty between japan and us. If the US State department refuses, the US will have broken the treaty. Moreover, Canada seeing that the US didn't comply with the treaty, Canada would not Meng to the US.

The noose tightens around the Ghosn Neck. First Michael Taylor and his son will give up Ghosn's wife and kids. The Ghosn family will soon be in a Tokyo jail and Ghosn will have no choice but to come back to Tokyo.

since Trump doesn't care about ex-military people who he thinks are suckers for going in the service.

False. He thinks they are suckers for going to stupid wars where America was clearly not threatened. The fact the father is such a sucker (or evil war lover as the case may be) is about the only thing I hold against this pair. But its not enough. They should not be extradited over this because they won't get a fair trial in Japan.

I think most Japanese have already lost interests in Ghosn and the two helpers. It is better that they will stay in their countries for avoiding the spread of the Covid-19.

Specifically, the report says "parents whose children had been taken overseas by former spouses", without mentioning Japan, so if you're basing your comment on this report, surely you are making an assumption without evidence?

No there is evidence. The EU called Japan out on this particular issue only a number of weeks ago

Under Lebanese law, a wife, even a foreign national, can be prevented by her husband from leaving the country.

actually, that is incorrect as I am syrian and have family and friends in Lebanon. The law is arbitrary. it applies to foreign nationals with middle eastern passports, but it doesn't apply to other foreign passport holders Particularly westerners

The Kolbs are not the only American family that Taylor assisted with their "Lebanon problems". That information is easy enough to find (especially as it's mentioned in court records during some of Michael Taylor's other legal troubles). On the other hand, information on the Taylors rescuing children from Japan is not.

That's not the point. Neither is your above comment regarding Lebanon's rules by the way. We are talking about the relationship between the US and Japan no one else.

The point is this, if Japanese nationals abduct their own children and take them out of the country illegally, they should be extradited to the US to face justice IF you are going to extradite the Taylors to Japan

The noose tightens around the Ghosn Neck. First Michael Taylor and his son will give up Ghosn's wife and kids. The Ghosn family will soon be in a Tokyo jail and Ghosn will have no choice but to come back to Tokyo.

That makes no sense. Everyone knows where Ghosn is, he just can't be extradited. And it's not like the Taylors would know something about him that Nissan and their prosecutor buddies don't.

the final decision rests with the State Department.

Somehow I think Pompeo is not going to hand over a former Green Beret and his son who helped a man escape Japanese injustice to the Japanese injustice system.

Everyone saying the Japanese justice system is corrupt. I say follow the law and you will not have to deal with it. Ghosn found that out. He is a criminal and so are the two who helped him escape japan. I hope the get extradited to japan and suffer in a Hokkaido prison in winter

the final decision rests with the State Department.

Somehow I think Pompeo is not going to hand over a former Green Beret and his son who helped a man escape Japanese injustice to the Japanese injustice system.

Lets hope so

That makes no sense. Everyone knows where Ghosn is, he just can't be extradited. And it's not like the Taylors would know something about him that Nissan and their prosecutor buddies don't.

The Talyors know who arranged for his escape and who paid them. The most likely scenario is this: Ghosn's wife or childern contacted the Talyors and hired them and paid them. The Japanese will bring a case against Ghosn's wife or childern- both are US nationals and reside in the US-, America will send the Children and his wife to Japan. What will Ghosn do? Stay in Lebanon while his wife and childern are in a Japanese jail?

Ghosn will cut a deal and come back to Japan.

@divinda Unfortunately, Japan just started allowing reentry for PR‘s on September 1. So they won’t be able to use that argument anymore.

Unfortunately for them * is what I meant to say. My mistake.

This case aside for a moment, I wonder if all these defenders of the J-system are ok with all the Japanese in jails here based on FORCED confessions etc etc

The people MOST affected by Japan's tyrannical ""justice"" system are JAPANESE. Many Embassies in Japan have WARNINGS on their J-sites about the "system" so it is well known.

And the total UNFAIRNESS of this tyrannical system where those connected always skate & if you are picked for the fall guy, you are toast.

There is nothing even remotely fair about the J-system, it is scary as hell!! Japan should fix to SAVE its OWN people from TYRANNY!!! Yeah right!!!

@James

Yes it is a crime, actually several different crimes relating to immigration laws and also aiding and abetting to commit a crime. They are facing 2-3 years imprisonment and several thousand dollars in fines if found guilty.

Ghosn was arrested for fraud and tax evasion not an internal dispute. He may or maynot be guilty and that is what the courts and lawyers were supposed to prove or disprove. 

Although I do believe that the Japanese justice system is a designed with the prosecutor in mind and needs to be reworked but that is beyond the scope of this.

Exactly! It’s like I say, “two wrongs don’t make a right.”

This case aside for a moment, I wonder if all these defenders of the J-system are ok with all the Japanese in jails here based on FORCED confessions etc etc

The people MOST affected by Japan's tyrannical ""justice"" system are JAPANESE. Many Embassies in Japan have WARNINGS on their J-sites about the "system" so it is well known.

And the total UNFAIRNESS of this tyrannical system where those connected always skate & if you are picked for the fall guy, you are toast.

There is nothing even remotely fair about the J-system, it is scary as hell!! Japan should fix to SAVE its OWN people from TYRANNY!!! Yeah right!!!

Well Said!!

You need to make it more clear that BOTH Japan and America have serious issues in their criminal justice systems. So far it just looks like you think Japan is fine and only America is a problem. They both have plenty of rot, just in different ways. Anyone holding either up as great or anywhere near perfect is a fool.

Absolutely

And the total UNFAIRNESS of this tyrannical system where those connected always skate & if you are picked for the fall guy, you are toast.

This is probably true anywhere.

So you are against the state department protecting their own?

That's good I guess.

Disclosure: I don't know anything about this matter, I'm just interested in how things will unfold

Disclosure: I don't know anything about this matter, I'm just interested in how things will unfold

No problem bro. I'm just trying to provide what little info I have on the matter (which is quite limited I must say)

I say follow the law and you will not have to deal with it.

What abject nonsense. Ghosn was doing the same things all the other execs were doing. If everyone followed the law literally nothing could get done. If you don't understand that, you don't understand the law. Its nothing but a huge tangled mess of conflicting, irrational BS at this point. Every single person in every "developed" country gets through the day violating umpteen laws. What Ghosn is facing is totally arbitrary application of law. We all know this.

Maybe a few punters at the State department will read Ghosns book, due out in November, and realize what a farce the whole thing was from the very beginning. Then promptly precede to wipe there hands of the whole mess once and for all. Let the two guys become a political tool and bargain chip that is never handed over.

Basically, they ain’t goin nowhere boys. There has to be a moral imperative to send off your own and there isn’t one here. Keep on keepin on though ya mugs!

No problem bro. I'm just trying to provide what little info I have on the matter (which is quite limited I must say)

Yup thanks. I see things a little differently but I do appreciate your passion and approach to discussions.

Yup thanks. I see things a little differently but I do appreciate your passion and approach to discussions.

same

Even the Taylors likely expected to lose the legal portion of the extradition. It's why they added Ivanka and Jared Kushner's attorney Abbe Lowell to represent them. Their fate was always going to rest with the State Department where insider connections can make the difference.

Justice! And I am betting the State Department won't block the transfer. If they aren't at least OK about sending the two to Japan, they didn't have to arrange their arrest.

In this case, the point is one of law, not of fact. No one is seriously disputing they helped Ghosn escape. Helping a prisoner escape is definitely a crime in the US and as a former US elite operator, he is a government worker and is expected to have a higher understanding of law than the random citizen, so he can't claim he never even thought jumping bail would be problematic. The Japanese clearly think it is a problem which only makes sense in America and the judge already sided with the prosecution on this issue. So...

Aly Rustom Today 08:29 am JST

what about extraditing ALL the Japanese spouses who kidnapped their children and took them to Japan, IF the US is going to send the Taylors to Japan? Didn't they violate US law when they took their kids illegally to Japan? Shouldn't this be reciprocal?

The difference is that a spouse in this situation will still have Parental rights in Japanese eyes. To take a kid that you have parental rights over is NOT a crime in Japan, a little factoid you'll find even in a law textbook. At this point, the test of double-criminality fails.

@Vanessa Carlisle Today 12:06 pm JST

That's a criticism unique to American law. Don't assume every other legal system is as uselessly overcomplex at least in terms of overloading its citizens with conflicting or inexigible duties.

Everyone saying the Japanese justice system is corrupt. I say follow the law and you will not have to deal with it.

Fact: Ghosn was arrested on accusations of charges that had not yet been proven true or false in a court of law.

Fact: Saikawa himself admitted to getting overpaid but wasn't prosecuted at all, unlike Ghosn.

So explain to me how it can be that someone who presumably followed the law, ends up getting arrested and is presumed guilty without evidence, while someone else who ADMITS wrongdoing, isn't arrested and doesn't spend a single day in detention?

I hope the get extradited to japan and suffer in a Hokkaido prison in winter

Let's see you say that again when you're the one getting arrested, presumed guilty from the start, getting interrogated for hours on end, getting told by prosecutors that you'd better plead guilty or else, having your court date constantly postponed, all the while someone else with similar accusations doesn't get a finger lifted at him.

Good luck suffering in your hokkaido prison.

The statement in the 2nd to last paragraph of "can take into consideration Japan’s frequent refusal to extradite its own citizens in serious matters" is in all likelihood referring to Japan's dismal record of not extraditing their own citizens in child abduction cases.

They don't see it as a crime which ironically is pretty much what these two lads are saying about this offence.

The Talyors know who arranged for his escape and who paid them. The most likely scenario is this: Ghosn's wife or childern contacted the Talyors and hired them and paid them. The Japanese will bring a case against Ghosn's wife or childern- both are US nationals and reside in the US-, America will send the Children and his wife to Japan. What will Ghosn do? Stay in Lebanon while his wife and childern are in a Japanese jail?

Ghosn will cut a deal and come back to Japan.

OK, but haven't the Taylors already admitted to helping Ghosn? And they already know that Ghosn's son wired the money, yet haven't arrested him. So I don't think the Taylors are hiding anything at this point. Either way, their extradition to Japan isn't a done deal yet.

kurisupisu

Appeal and appeal againI

===

Perhaps theyve spent all of the money that ghosn paid them, lawyers don't work free, you know, hah

Shame. More hostage justice.

Ghosn while under arrest for a year not criminally charged had basically served beyond whatever sentence it was going to be. For the crime of having a future income, that wasn't paid yet. This melted their brains. Saikawa leaves under a similar situation, it's fine, no jail.

Japan's hostage justice system need reform. It simply cannot see how pointless it is, and every time this case comes up reminds the world of its blindness

I think extradition is asking to much, firstly I am surprised that the USA have said to Japan what are the charges? what are they based on? show us the facts etc and if they just charges/allegation just made up in Japan, they should be told the extradition is not happening due to the Micky mouse allegations are not lawful. one other way around the deportation of the Taylors due to the C19 virus, the interview could be done under a video link with solicitor and prosecutors at both ends. Then if Japan has some credibility then may be the US could consider there extradition, but if Japans prosecutors come up with zero, or at best a wishy washy argument that's water tight as a sieve, release them.

And Ghosn, enjoying his morning coffee, couldn’t care less.

JamesToday  07:45 am JST

Michael Taylor, a former Green Beret, ran a private security business initially focused on private investigations, but their caseload grew through corporate work and unofficial referrals from the State Department and FBI, including parents whose children had been taken overseas by former spouses.

the final decision rests with the State Department.

So they work for the State Department and the State Department has the final decision

No, they do not "work for the State Department". Unless you are suggesting that the US Government was behind Ghosn's bail jumping escape from Japan.

They got " unofficial referrals from the State Department and FBI, ". That's not working for the State Dept.

the final decision rests with the State Department

The decision as to whether to comply with the extradition Treaty indeed rests with the State Dept. But considering the current level of military alliance as well as the resulting inability to extradite US fugitives who flee to Japan, this is a no-brainer. US would have absolutely nothing gain, only lose.

If they get sent down for this, you can expect a punitive sentence. It would surprise me if it wasn't excessive.

That is the way Prosecutors across all jurisdictions can roll when they have their feathers f'ed with.

AKA, we couldn't get Ghosn but we can get the cabin staff.

@sakurasuki

Is that a crime? The real crime is Ghosn being arrested for an internal company dispute.

Even in case of Carlos Ghosn, is he really doing any crime at all? It's too premature for that from the beginning, since apparently there lot of conflict of interest inside Nissan, like this latest one that is being revealed. 

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/08/29/nissan-carlos-ghosn-coup-hari-nada/

Excellent link, which actually now clears up many aspects of this rotten affair. Especially the link at the very bottom to the Actual Bloomberg report. Thank you samurasuki.

I think that article was first on Bloomberg. Nasty internal stuff that I am guessing Nissan doesn't want any publicity.

It paints them as monsters.

If the shoe fits....

@JCosplayToday 

Unfortunately, Japan just started allowing reentry for PR‘s on September 1. So they won’t be able to use that argument anymore.

To the best of anyone's knowledge, these guys are neither PRs or residents of Japan. So my (absurdist) statement that it can argued they are currently barred from entry still stands true.

Why Japanese justice system let go Olympus, Toshiba, Takata, Kobe Steel scandal where their execs already admit plead guilty with plenty evidence to start with?

If Ghosn were Japanese Nissan would just be another one on this list.

Extradition will never happen. This outrageous decision by this "judge" will be blocked and appealed for years to come and then dropped.

umbrellaToday  01:42 am JST

Extradition will never happen. This outrageous decision by this "judge" will be blocked and appealed for years to come and then dropped.

LOL. Just like the Mass Court Judge would never allow extradition.

Those guys are cool in my book. They also didnt really break the law.

John RichardsonToday  08:57 am JST

Those guys are cool in my book. They also didnt really break the law.

Yes, they broke the law.

In the US bail jumping in itself is a crime in all States and on a Federal level. Aiding and abetting a crime, is of itself a crime. That is sufficient for extradition.

If the Taylors want to argue that they did not commit any crime under Japanese Law, the only place to adjudicate that is in a Court in Japan. No Court in the US will hear it.

If the Taylors want to argue that they did not commit any crime under Japanese Law, the only place to adjudicate that is in a Court in Japan. No Court in the US will hear it.

You speak as if that is not precisely what just happened. It was heard, but ruled against.

But, be suspicious. This ruling may have been made as part of a deal with the State Department to avoid shaking the boat with the Japan at the court level and/or as a means for quid pro quo from the State Department. We may never know how much politics is at work here. But its risky to assume its just pure justice system at work. It practically cannot be in the U.S.

These people broke the law in several countries and should face the Japanese legal system as a starter. End of story.

These people broke the law

No, they didn't broke the law.

Its very common to run-out after bail in Japan. There's plenty of videos in YouTube of it.

The MOJ didn't ever change that law, nobody cared until after Ghosn scape.

You might not like it, but the fact is there is no law in Japan in helping people escape bail, what crime have they commited?

The difference is that a spouse in this situation will still have Parental rights in Japanese eyes. To take a kid that you have parental rights over is NOT a crime in Japan, a little factoid you'll find even in a law textbook. At this point, the test of double-criminality fails.

BUT it is a crime to kidnap a child in the US, SO if the crime was committed in the US Japan has to hand over the kidnappers

Kazuaki Shimazaki

> To take a kid that you have parental rights over is NOT a crime in Japan,

If they had parental rights in the first place, they wouldn't have taken them.

BTW, has carlos been charged with anything yet? If so what's the problem with him leaving Japan?

no foreigners will get a fair trial in japan.

japan failed in their jurisdiction system. what is the sense to send them there?

@Aly Rustom Today 07:59 am JST

Actually, I rechecked my textbook and you are partially right - I remembered correctly that Japanese law will be on the mother's side (thus double criminality does not apply), but remembered the reverse reason. Here's the textbook extract:

https://1drv.ms/w/s!AuGUXs2iFC0Fov9NBm9r9_3H4QbbSw?e=gdXEZj

If you open it up, note the four columns of common theories, differing in the protected legal interest of the kidnapping law. A is Freedom, B is Custodial Rights, C is a Mix of the Two and D is a mix of Freedom and Safety. Note that Theory C is the one backed by jurisprudence and also the majority academic opinion.

It identifies the person's freedom as the primary protected interest (1), but makes an exception for infants (幼児) when the custodial right wins out (2). It may be presumed that most abducted children we are referring to are at least not infants, so if they are flying to Japan voluntarily, without coercion or deception, the theory predicts that the mother (or in fact, anyone) should not be found guilty of kidnapping because freedom is the primary protected interest.

Sorry for that incovenience and thanks for providing an opportunity for me to recheck the text.

@bokuda Sep. 6 08:58 pm JST

Its very common to run-out after bail in Japan. There's plenty of videos in YouTube of it.

Defendants are indeed "allowed" to run out after bail in Japan. That's because the article for escape reads as follows.

（逃走）

第九十七条 裁判の執行により拘禁された既決又は未決の者が逃走したときは、一年以下の懲役に処する

A bailed person is not 拘禁ed and thus can run out after bail. Unfortunately for Taylor, such is not the case for Harboring of Criminals:

（犯人蔵匿等）

第百三条 罰金以上の刑に当たる罪を犯した者...を蔵匿し、又は隠避させた者は、二年以下の懲役又は二十万円以下の罰金に処する。

Taylor's action may not comply with the alternate variant (又は拘禁中に逃走した者) but it does meet the first variant. For the record, it has already been decided via jurisprudence that 罪を犯した者 includes not only convicts but suspects and defendants.

The MOJ didn't ever change that law, nobody cared until after Ghosn scape.

The reluctance to make this set of law more severe is due to a bit of human righty mercy, where it is assumed it is inexigible to demand a defendant to not fight back, at least to a certain extent.

He is, for a related matter, openly allowed to lie in court, but he is NOT allowed to incite another to lie.

It must be remembered that the vast majority of Japanese defendants aren't allowed bail, which minimizes the need to criminalize running out after bail. The fact that Japanese defendants can escape scot free if they are allowed bail also makes it easier to justify not granting bail in the first place, so it is kind of good for everyone.

Not only does Ghosn open up the spectacle of a knowingly unsafe defendant being allowed bail anyway, but if bail becoming more common is indeed the trend, the nicety may become unsustainable. So it is not a big surprise Ghosn was the trigger to a review of the law.

@Kazuaki

 罰金以上の刑に当たる罪を犯した者

This doesn't apply to Ghosn. He didn't even had a trial date yet. There's no penalties or convictions on him.

The fact that Japanese defendants can escape scot free if they are allowed bail also makes it easier to justify not granting bail in the first place, so it is kind of good for everyone.

This is sickening... You just decide no bail nobody because you're kind?!

 It may be presumed that most abducted children we are referring to are at least not infants, so if they are flying to Japan voluntarily, without coercion or deception, the theory predicts that the mother (or in fact, anyone) should not be found guilty of kidnapping because freedom is the primary protected interest.

Maybe if the child is a teenager, but nearly all of the cases I've read they involve children who were too young to make that decision. Moreover, the western spouse was not aware of the move back to Japan, so I think in MOST of the cases, the Japanese parent would be found guilty of kidnapping. There was a case about a woman who went to Guam and was immediately arrested for kidnapping her children about 5-10 years ago..

My point is simply, if the Taylors are to be extradited to Japan, then there are many Japanese parents who should be sent to the US to face justice as well.

Sorry for that incovenience and thanks for providing an opportunity for me to recheck the text.

No problem and thank you for your polite and very informative posts. While we tend to disagree quite a lot, I do appreciate your thoughtful and informative posts.

@bokuda Today 03:38 pm JST

This doesn't apply to Ghosn. He didn't even had a trial date yet. There's no penalties or convictions on him.

Read what I wrote last time:

For the record, it has already been decided via jurisprudence that 罪を犯した者 includes not only convicts but suspects and defendants.

Here, have a link to Textbook again (note where it says "Jurisprudence" - Column B):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mLpVnvHxpsxUhvPBA

This is sickening... You just decide no bail nobody because you're kind?!

I just point out that if you have a system where people on bail can flee without penalty, you would have to be much more stringent on who gets it unless you accept that everyone will escape.

@Kazuaki

Yep! Just saw your link.

As sad as it gets, you're right. In Japan you're a criminal even before going to trial.

-Guilty until YOU prove you're innocent- is as real as it can get.

Bail also should be your right. Not the exception but the norm.

@mtuffizi

no foreigners will get a fair trial in japan.

japan failed in their jurisdiction system. what is the sense to send them there?

Only if you are active duty military or a civilian under US SOFA status, or under US embassy jurisdiction then you have a better chance in J-land.