crime

Lawyer for Ghosn slams 'outrageous' rules on seeing wife

52 Comments
By Shingo Ito and Anne Beade

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52 Comments
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Wow. Well, that's not good. Crossing Nissan, Mitsubishi, and Renault, off my shopping list for a car, too much drama. Maybe a Tesla would be nice...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@OpenMinded The question I have is whether he has taken his decision within the spirit of the law or not. He has got a lot of discretionary power based on "feeling".

Exactly. OpenMinded sums up the issue very well!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"And not that this will make me seem anymore qualified to the people here who already hate me for seeing this from a legal perspective, however I did study law at a national university in Japan. So yeah... I'd say I know pretty well how law works in this country."

I don't hate you. In fact, I don't even know who you are. FYI, there are no standard qualifications for commenting anonymously on some topic online. Please start your own website and screen the comments to make sure the only ones uploaded are written by people who are as "qualified" as you are. I'm sure that website will be a big hit.

And please, while you may see this situation from a "legal" perspective it's clear from reading your many, many comments here that you also view this situation from the perspective of a person who intensely dislikes Carlos Ghosn. So please dispense with the pretense of objectivity.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

@Katarina Krakow

A notice a massive lack of understanding the legal system in Japan.

Here is a story from somebody who got educated a bit more:

http://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-videotape-at-the-kawasaki-kmart.html

And: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYJpc2y37oU&t=892s

You may also be interested in reading the comments.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

The lawyers are exaggerating. You don't need one year to start the trial, you can finish it by tomorrow. Settle it outside of the court, as simple as that.

Why settle out of court? In other words keep Ghosn hostage while Nissan can milk him with exaggerated compensation settlements. (Mrs. Ghosn, don't allow Nissan or anyone for that matter, to communicate with you. Japanese will record the conversation and take ot to the prosecutor as evidence. Trust me, I have seen it done).

Japans so-called justice system is on trail. Lets all see the verdict. Sham law, and scam law.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Human Rights Commission cannot intervene as Japan has smartly not ratified the applicable treaties. That leaves them alone in deciding to apply a covenant they have signed and has become a law of their country backed by the constitution. And they don't as they prove in their detention practices too. The question that remains though is under what law or framework would somebody seek to find his right in Japan...

5 ( +6 / -1 )

A notice a massive lack of understanding the legal system in Japan.

Understandable but kindly keep your emotions under control and educate a bit more.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

If you don't understand the law, you don't have a right to be outraged at things like this

Well. Orwell. Orwellian.

1984.

There are many things ordinary people have a right to be outraged at. The handling of this case of corporate character assassination without proof is one of them.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

In any country suspects often don't get bail in serious cases.  Right now, some Japanese are detained pending trial without bail in USA and China.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

The lawyers are exaggerating. You don't need one year to start the trial, you can finish it by tomorrow. Settle it outside of the court, as simple as that.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

From humanity view, it is suffering. From criminal law point, it is justice. It is really complicated, so please understand.

-9 ( +1 / -10 )

1 year until the trial begins? So it’ll get rolling around the same time as the olympics? This will look real good Japan.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

It's outrageous, even by Japanese standards," Takano said.

Wha', Japanese standards are low, eh?

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Ridiculous, inhumane, uncivilized brainless lawmakers of Japan.

Forbidding to see a family member makes him still 50% in prison.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

It's disgraceful end of story. Whether he is guilty or not. What's next no talking to his daughters? Where is amnesty international on this. If the Chinese, North Korean or even Venezuela were doing this there would be outrage. But also the French govt seems to have washed their hands of him too. He might be a nefarious character but seems a bit extreme. God help me if the Japanese cops ever come after me... Although while cycling today there was a cop car behind me and as your mind wanders while exercising I ruminate over were the cops behind me or after me. Might try teach it in my next lesson

3 ( +6 / -3 )

What if they want conjugal relations, lol

In Common Law, there's typically Spousal/Marital Privilege aka Husband-Wife Privilege

8 ( +9 / -1 )

... his wife Carole, whom prosecutors believe has made contact with people involved in the case against the tycoon.

So the prosecutors can contact people involved in the case, but Ghosn cannot? Unbalanced. Unfair. Unjust. Japan.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

ksteer -

No doubt as a matter of fact, your arguments from the legal stand point correctly define the situation in Japan.

Which brings to mind then, that would indirectly indicate a failing in the justice systems of most advanced countries where setting bail is the norm not the exception in any number of cases. Interesting that not only, but mainly in Japan, denying bail is seen as paramount to prevent evidence tampering. Why haven't other international judicaries taken this approach on board as de rigeur? Not saying one way or the other, but it's something that deserves deeper consideration and analysis.

And I believe many commenters here, while possibly acknowledging the existing realities of the restricitve Japanese system - ie it's the law - are simply disagreeing with the seemingly inhumane aspect of denying a yet-to-be-convicted-of-anything person the right to see his wife. It fits the profile of the prosecutors are beyond All Mighty in Japan to a T - Confinement and Submission. This denial of simple rights - rights known through out the modern world in countries with diverse histories & cultures, yet can share some common ground on the treatment of prisoners.

And if, as it appears to be, the trial will not be held for another year, well then the Japanese Judicial system should prepare itself for any and all of the International attention this will attract at the time - mostly in a negative light.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@ksteer

No doubt that the judge has taken his decision within the Japanese law.

The question I have is whether he has taken his decision within the spirit of the law or not. He has got a lot of discretionary power based on "feeling".

Basically is he taking his decision in full impartiality? Could it be political manoeuvres on the backstage?

Are there any way to challenge a perceived impartial and unfair decision?

4 ( +7 / -3 )

People forget that the prosecution raided his residency and took evidence he and his team were preparing. This entire case is a sham! Disgusting Japanese justice

10 ( +12 / -2 )

Prosecution: "We're almost there boys"

Yes, and this is where things can get really nasty in Japan. Nisan will probably want money now.

Do not under-estimate the lengths that they will go to in order to get it.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

ksteer - See my response to Disillusioned for the answer. There isn't any evidence required.

Bwahahaha! Welcome to the Japanese injustice system. You look like a criminal, you smell like a criminal, you act like a criminal, therefore, you must be a criminal. And, you will be treated as such until you can prove your innocence. What a complete joke!

10 ( +13 / -3 )

its sad he can’t see his wife right now, that seems to be something that a court should not be able to prevent. Regardless of what she supposedly did or did on his behalf.

I wonder how his wife really feels about all this, if she is supportive or if she is mad that he kinda messed up her fairytale rich lifestyle

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

To be clear, he should be contacting people, and if his wife helps him do so, no issue there. He should be preparing his defense and if that necessitates contacting people, so be it. The original court restriction is ridiculous.

Surely the objective of a trial is to lay clear the evidence and determine if a crime has been committed and IMO, that would necessitate lining up the evidence and witnesses - by the defense as well as the prosecution. He cannot do his part if his hands are tied.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

What happens with Ghosn is the pure proof of a sick ‘justice’ system. It’s unbelievable that a so called ‘deceloped country’ have those kind of 3rd world country Courts and Justice.

I forsee in the future Japan being sued to Internationa Courts from Hague or similar due to grotesque human rights violations.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

"He looks depressed and he is so disappointed to know that he could not communicate with his wife...His mental as well as physical condition looks not so good now" 

Prosecution: "We're almost there boys"

12 ( +13 / -1 )

But never forget one thing, he isn't Japanese, and he isnt going to be afforded the same rights and privileges that a Japanese defendant would.

How does that explain he was given bail, which is unusual for someone in his position when other Japanese charged had to stay in prison until their trials.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Cruel and unnecessary punishment and his wife isn't on trial.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

It's about time someone said this, even though it should've been said way sooner. 

First off has been said here countless numbers of times. But never forget one thing, he isn't Japanese, and he isnt going to be afforded the same rights and privileges that a Japanese defendant would.

Far too often, justice for foreigners here, is far from blind!

12 ( +15 / -3 )

"His wife is expected of"--So you mean it is anticipated that she may violate the bail conditions someday? That is even weaker than the legally flimsy "suspected." Only punish her/them if there is clear proof of something wrong. Prosecutors expect/suspect doesn't meet a high enough standard.

Ghosn is expected to be given a large retirement bonus in the future. Better lock him up posthaste.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

We are living in communist laws, this is not what a democracy is.

11 ( +15 / -4 )

And I thought Japan was a safe country. But the threat to our safety is not on the street - it's from above, the judiciary. In Japan, welcome to the nightmares of Kafka.

13 ( +16 / -3 )

Ksteer

Do I need to repeat myself. "*His wife is expected of contacting people on his behalf

Did you intend to write "suspected" or expected is correct.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

No skinship!

No peace!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

I mean I know that I'm not going to change anybody's opinions on the matter. Its much easier to be outraged at everything than think about things logically with an understanding of how it came to be and how both sides view it.

That being said, do I agree with the bail conditions? I think they are a bit harsh but I'm on the fence. And not that this will make me seem anymore qualified to the people here who already hate me for seeing this from a legal perspective, however I did study law at a national university in Japan. So yeah... I'd say I know pretty well how law works in this country.

-8 ( +6 / -14 )

@ChipStar

Your evidence is what?

See my response to Disillusioned for the answer. There isn't any evidence required.

@commanteer

Nonsense. People don't need to have law degrees to recognize moral outrages.

But if you feel a lawyer's voice is needed to voice outrage, then here's a quote from a lawyer cited above: "It's inhumane. It's outrageous."

I admit, I did a bad job of articulating what I meant with that comment. However, I don't see the moral outrage in this case. I meant more along the lines of people screaming human rights violations without understanding that the law allows to infringement of human rights in certain cases. Also people don't seem to understand how bail works and as such get upset. Anyone with any sort of knowledge regarding how bail is decided wouldn't be freaking out like most people on this forum do. They don't have to agree with the bail condition though.

As for the lawyer's quote. Of course he is going to say that, he's the defenses representative. Like I said, he doesn't have to agree with it, but at least he understands how bail is decided upon. He wouldn't be a very good defense lawyer is he just said: "suck it up, it is what it is".

-6 ( +8 / -14 )

The tough terms of his bail mean he needs court permission to visit his wife Carole, whom prosecutors believe has made contact with people involved in the case against the tycoon.

Whats to say that people involved in the against Mr. Ghosn are not trying to contact Ghosn's wife. Nissan for example are seeking exaggerated compensation Mrs.Ghosn should not answer her telephone to anybody.

"This is a clear violation of our own constitution as well as a violation of the human rights treaty, which our government ratified... (a) long time ago," he added.

Absolutly. What is extremely disturbing is that a judge rubber stamped this.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

The tough terms of his bail mean he needs court permission to visit his wife Carole, whom prosecutors believe has made contact with people involved in the case against the tycoon.

And 'suspicion' alone is enough to 'justify' one outrageous kangaroo court ruling after another. This is beyond pathetic! Seeing this kempeitai style of 'justice' makes me fear my own safety here in Japan. This is a sign of a very sick society.

Guilty or not, his treatment to date has been anything but constitutional and it blows my mind to think that any court would support these moves. If the courts are worried about him 'tampering with evidence' why do the prosecutors and Nissan have full access to the evidence while he is not even afforded proper opportunity to build his own case?

As for visits from his wife, they are recorded and monitered so what's the problem? Clearly a shallow, childlike ploy to destroy his morale. But my expectations are so low of the Japanese justice system that it's hardly any surprise.

ksteerToday

If anyone here is unaware of how law works in a supposedly democratic nation, it's you.

10 ( +14 / -4 )

That's why there are lawyers. If you don't understand the law, you don't have a right to be outraged at things like this. 

Nonsense. People don't need to have law degrees to recognize moral outrages.

But if you feel a lawyer's voice is needed to voice outrage, then here's a quote from a lawyer cited above: "It's inhumane. It's outrageous."

11 ( +15 / -4 )

ksteer - Why is this ridiculous by any means? His wife is expected of contacting people involved in the case on his behalf. 

It would seem that it is you who does not understand the law. There is no evidence of any such contact between Ghosn and his wife or his wife and other parties. If there was, she would have been indicted as well for either obstruction of justice or for tampering with evidence. All contact between Ghosn and his wife has been strictly monitored since his arrest. This is just another pathetic ploy by the Japanese injustice system to force some kind of confession. The japanese prosecutors must be really hopeless if this is the only way they win a case. They just torture a 'suspect' both physically and emotionally until they crack. The japanese prosecutors will also drag this case out for years trying to break Ghosn. They are just pathetic!

Do I need to repeat myself. "*His wife is expected of contacting people on his behalf...*" Bail doesn't require evidence to set conditions. It's quite literally up to the whim of the Judge. You're correct that if there was strong evidence she likely would have been indicted as well. But like I mentioned above, there doesn't need to be evidence or proof to impose bail restrictions.

-9 ( +7 / -16 )

Why is this ridiculous by any means? His wife is expected of contacting people involved in the case on his behalf. That means potential tampering of evidence and also that he was potentially using her to get around his bail restrictions. This was brought on by himself and her

Your evidence is what?

11 ( +14 / -3 )

ksteer - Why is this ridiculous by any means? His wife is expected of contacting people involved in the case on his behalf. 

It would seem that it is you who does not understand the law. There is no evidence of any such contact between Ghosn and his wife or his wife and other parties. If there was, she would have been indicted as well for either obstruction of justice or for tampering with evidence. All contact between Ghosn and his wife has been strictly monitored since his arrest. This is just another pathetic ploy by the Japanese injustice system to force some kind of confession. The japanese prosecutors must be really hopeless if this is the only way they win a case. They just torture a 'suspect' both physically and emotionally until they crack. The japanese prosecutors will also drag this case out for years trying to break Ghosn. They are just pathetic!

14 ( +19 / -5 )

But I digress, its damn near impossible to teach the general population about how the law works... That's why there are lawyers. If you don't understand the law, you don't have a right to be outraged at things like this. Its like when people complain about elections but didnt actually vote. Read the law, understand how it works, and then if you don't agree with it, say something. But I've argued too much with people who lack the knowledge, or will to understand how the law works.

-8 ( +8 / -16 )

Totally ridiculous, not allowing his wife to visit him ???. Very much against human rights. No one can forgive such mean actions. Is it not enough that he had to bring Nissan out of bankruptcy , helped a Japanese company and betrayed by his Japanese co-workers ???. From the example of this case, I am sure no foreigners will ever help Japan with real heart anymore unless such action are retracted.

13 ( +17 / -4 )

There is no proof he has committed a crime! 6 months have passed by and they have 0 evidence! So yes, it is absolutely ridiculous to prevent him from seeing his spouse.

As mentioned before, its a preventative measure as part of his bail conditions. You don't have to be convicted of a crime to have conditions on your bail. The other option is that he just doesn't get bail. Bail is decided entirely by the courts based on perceived potential to tamper with evidence, reoffend etc. In this case, they think that he is likely to use his wife to tamper evidence = no seeing wife without permission.

Regarding the evidence they have, if they had evidence they wouldn't be telling you or me, or anyone in public. That's how trials get tainted..

-12 ( +8 / -20 )

Why is this ridiculous by any means? His wife is expected of contacting people involved in the case on his behalf. That means potential tampering of evidence and also that he was potentially using her to get around his bail restrictions. This was brought on by himself and her.

There is no proof he has committed a crime! 6 months have passed by and they have 0 evidence! So yes, it is absolutely ridiculous to prevent him from seeing his spouse.

10 ( +16 / -6 )

It was? What crime was he convicted of?

Or are you presuming guilt?

You don't have to be convicted of a crime to break your bail conditions... Im presuming innocence until proven guilty, but there is quite a bit of evidence that says he broke his bail conditions via his wife. The Japanese courts also seem to agree with me so...

-10 ( +10 / -20 )

"It's inhumane. It's outrageous, even by Japanese standards," Takano said.

It's about time someone said this, even though it should've been said way sooner. This whole case stinks. And one year before the first court hearing is ridiculous. Again more outrage is needed, because if this becomes the norm, we are all doomed.

21 ( +25 / -4 )

This was brought on by himself and her.

It was? What crime was he convicted of?

Or are you presuming guilt?

16 ( +25 / -9 )

Why is this ridiculous by any means? His wife is expected of contacting people involved in the case on his behalf. That means potential tampering of evidence and also that he was potentially using her to get around his bail restrictions. This was brought on by himself and her.

-16 ( +11 / -27 )

Why doesn't the UN step in? This is absolutely ridiculous!!!

14 ( +19 / -5 )

Ridiculous.

16 ( +21 / -5 )

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