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Man claiming to be 'a woman inside' arrested for entering female bath at resort

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And so it begins. Now what will be the objective standard by which to differentiate those who are truly dysphoric from those who simply wish to take advantage of the new legal landscape?

29 ( +42 / -13 )

Uh-oh. Slippery slope.

8 ( +24 / -16 )

If he was a woman on then why isn’t she not looking like a woman on the outside. The trans females I know are beautiful and take great care to give their external appearance to fit their internal one. A real trans female probably wouldn’t get the cops called on her.

and women often go into the men’s side. What’s the big deal?

-25 ( +8 / -33 )

Roy Today 04:57 pm JST

In this case, and in every other case going into the future, the manager sets the standard.

The manager sets the standard until a court determines that a manager's decision to bar such individuals is discrimination.

5 ( +16 / -11 )

 The trans females I know are beautiful and take great care to give their external appearance to fit their internal one.

how do you know they are "trans" then?

3 ( +15 / -12 )

The trans females I know are beautiful and take great care to give their external appearance to fit their internal one.

I have worked with a couple of trans females. I support their lifestyle, but no amount of hormone therapy can hide the fact they still look like geezers in dresses.

9 ( +18 / -9 )

I have worked with a couple of trans females. I support their lifestyle, but no amount of hormone therapy can hide the fact they still look like geezers in dresses.

except for those who don't, and then you don't know .......

-9 ( +7 / -16 )

Roy Today 05:15 pm JST

And if it actually is?

And what if it actually isn't? And this cuts to the point made originally: How is one to objectively determine someone is legitimately gender dysphoric from those who are pretending to be so. To bar one is discrimination, to bar the other is to protect against a criminal.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

Roy Today 05:28 pm JST

preemptive hysteria

What you call "preemptive hysteria" I call "anticipating problems". I know people like to live in the now and not care about the future, but that is not what adults do.

As for the court's decision being legally binding, my point is about the intention of the manager, who you say decides. I say that in the absence of an objective standard, a manager simy has no basis to determine person x is legitimately gender dysphoric while person y is a criminal pretending to be so. In such a situation there is actually no way to determIne that a manager acted out of discrimination or justifiable worry for customers. So I would like to know on what basis a court determines discrimination vs. legitimate concern. And, to return to the point, how is one to avoid court at all by employing an objective in the first place.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

Good call Shimada San. We need more like him to stop this "identifying" nonsense.

16 ( +24 / -8 )

Nice try …

1 ( +8 / -7 )

Is this a case of a form of gender dysphoria?

How to Identify and Treat Gender Dysphoria

https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/gender-dysphoria

The suspect admitted to entering the women's bathing area but was quoted by the police as saying, "I'm a woman inside, so I don't understand at all why I'm not allowed in the women's baths."

For a women's only space, women could well feel extremely uncomfortable when a male appears, a stranger,

in this case a hot spring facility has and maintains a clear gender segregation policy.

The police/prosecutors will decide if the accused should be prosecuted.

Maybe, more professional consultations with qualified counselors could be needed.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

itsonlyrocknroll Today 06:09 pm JST

Is this a case of a form of gender dysphoria?

How to Identify and Treat Gender Dysphoria

https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/gender-dysphoria

From the URL you provided:

This diagnosis is subjective and will vary depending on the competency of individual providers, geographical location, and laws.

So is this to say that there is no objective way to determine if someone is gender dysphoric?

5 ( +7 / -2 )

jeffy

Well, honestly in this case I assume the chap entered the women bathing area in full knowledge that facility management would be calling the police.

Yes, your point is valid/pertinent, also for women to be confronted in such a way, i suspect gender dysphoric may not have been foremost in there minds.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

I literally said this would happen like a month ago when they changed the law regarding legally recognized gender.

9 ( +15 / -6 )

We really don't need this psych-based insanity over here. There are two genders/sexes, male and female. These baths were for female bodies, he has a male body. It's not complicated.

21 ( +29 / -8 )

Roy Today 06:34 pm JST

Japan does not have a habit of overriding private businesses' freedom to select their customers.

Perhaps you are right in this, but what you forget is that Japan is receiving lots of outside pressure (gaiatsu) on this issue to make sweeping changes in this area. So what may be theoretical now, will likely be reality in the next few weeks. For example, on October 29th commentators here discussed the scenario of a man going into a women's public bath on the pretext that they are actually a woman, although physically a man, under the recent court ruling ( https://japantoday.com/category/national/focus-japan-faces-hurdle-to-changing-law-after-transgender-surgery-decision ). And here we are just a little while later, the "preemptive hysteria" of some of those commentators is actually a reality!

3 ( +6 / -3 )

If she is still in possession of Big Jim and the twins, going into a female baths is going to have her put down for a nonce straight away.

It's ok identifying as a woman, but to most people dangling the meat n taters in the bath says otherwise.

What ever happened to kon-yoku anyway? I remember sitting in a bath in the boonies of Tohoku. The only other occupants were two old women with their well droopy danglers floating in front of them. Truly a gender-free experience.

13 ( +15 / -2 )

Nice try buddy!

9 ( +11 / -2 )

C'mon, man.

No matter how good your wig and make-up is, you've still got junk going on down there! Stay in the men's bath.

Those women and girls wouldve been horribly traumatised.

13 ( +18 / -5 )

Not transgender, just a pervert.

17 ( +20 / -3 )

factchecker Today 07:28 pm JST

Not transgender, just a pervert.

It may be as you say, but how can we check the facts?

1 ( +9 / -8 )

And so it begins. Now what will be the objective standard by which to differentiate those who are truly dysphoric from those who simply wish to take advantage of the new legal landscape?

Exactly. This is one reason Kishida is in trouble.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Years ago a MTF trans friend of mine had the balls (pun intended) to go into a male hot spring because she didn’t want to cause trouble. She was asked to leave and use the female onsen instead. When she explained that she was anatomically male below the manager looked confused and told her to just cover with a towel and use the woman’s hot spring because she was making the men uncomfortable. True story.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

If he has a weiner he shouldn't be on the women's side.

Put that in the J constitution in those exact words so there'll be no misunderstanding.

9 ( +13 / -4 )

Pretty soon, every pervert in Japan is going to identify as “a woman on the inside.” Not very long after, every women-only train car is going to be populated by “women-inside” men. Women’s onsen baths will only be frequented by “women-inside” men, who will ultimately stop coming for the lack of actual women to ogle, likely causing most establishments to close for lack of business. The only public bathrooms that women use will be individual ones that lock out all other people.

But, hey, at least society will be able to pat itself on the back for a towering achievement in gender equality!

6 ( +10 / -4 )

Roy Today 07:39 pm JST

Big whoop, transphobes have been screeching about the "bathroom issue" for years, it's the usual going-to argument whenever anything even hints at gender affirmative policy.

Actually, taking up the opposing position, I argued to the logical conclusion of this position at that time, saying:

But why stop [at educating the public that anatomically-male individuals and anatomically-female individuals are fully entitled to use the sex-segregated space in which they feel most comfortable]? The existence of “sex-segregated spaces” itself is predicated on a false and bigoted notion of sexual binary and should therefore be abolished. Therefore bathrooms and public baths should not be sex-segregated at all. And why should the conversation always only be about bathrooms and public baths? Locker rooms in gyms should not be sex-segregated. Changing rooms in department stores should not be sex-segregated. Sex-segregation should be abolished in sports. Prisons should not be sex-segregated. Etc. Oh can you not see how much work there is to do!

So well did I present the opposing view that girl_in_tokyo was kind enough to write in response:

Yes, that's very well put.

So I certainly do not stop at the "bathroom issue" and see there is far more to be concerned about in this complex situation. So calling people who have such concerns "transphobes" does nothing to move the conversation forward. But what would move the conversation forward is an objective basis to differentiate genuine gender dysphoric individuals from pretenders. That would go along way to alleviate the concerns some have while also providing an understandable basis for this condition to those who are skeptical.

No Japanese court will ever rule that a bathhouse's management must let a man into the women's area who, on a whim, decides to "feel female". You can take that to the bank.

Time, and outside pressure, will tell.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

It may be as you say, but how can we check the facts?

Hard as a nail he was probably male. But really as a guy I am fine with mixed bathing as an option. The most uncomfortable I ever felt was at a YMCA in high school where a flamer watched me in the shower and tried to pinch my stomach to see how little fat I had.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The manager of this facility should be praised and given honor for having the decency and courage to speak up and out about the objective reality that this man was not a woman. A win for the women, and little girl, patrons.

From now, hopefully, if this man is actually gender confused, he will get the necessary therapy to heal his delusion, i.e. his fixed false belief.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

hentai

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Good for the manager.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

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