Man to be extradited to Japan for aiding Ghosn's escape accuses U.S. of 'betrayal'

We're going to get over there and we're going to get tortured.

Japan does not use torture, Mr. Taylor. That sounds more like the official US justice system, for example Guantanamo Bay. I hope the $1.3 million from Ghosn was worth it.

@Fighto!

Oh how wrong you are.....

@Robert CikkiToday 03:29 pm JST

Oh how wrong you are.....

As far as I know, even the likes of Ghosn has not tried to claim he was waterboarded or beaten.

We shouldn't dilute the word torture until it is "anything mildly unpleasant", but keep it as a marker for the worst abuses. When a person hears words like "rape" or "torture", he's supposed to get viscerally angry, not think in a dead tone "Oh, does that mean you suddenly developed regret for last night?" or "Oh, you had to sleep in a futon, kind of like the norm in Japan ..."

Totally unfair.

This will nothing to do with justice. All it's right now about is Japan not wanting to lose it's face (despite it lost it's face already) and having it revenge. If he really get's here, he will not confess despite being asked to in order getting lower sentence. Prosecutors will try to play it tough. So it'll take ages before this'll end.

Maybe they shouldn't have committed a crime in Japan if they didn't want to face extradition. Or they could've disappeared to a country with no extradition treaty. I'm sure they got a lot of money for getting Mr. Ghosn out and could've done so easily. They took a risk and got the bad end of the deal.

If bail jumping is not a crime in Japan (therefore aiding is not presumably), what are they being charged with?

I understand he sought publicity about what transpired. If so, not a smart move.

I don't think they will get a lot of time in jail, but they will be interrogated (tortured) until they confess. They will have a much harder time with an ex-SF though. He's received training to resist interrogation and has faced far worse hardship than the J police can subject him to.

Japan's criminal legal system is archaic and in need of reform.

I'd assume they're being charged with smuggling a person out of the country.

Or is smuggling not a crime?

@Robert Cikki Today 03:57 pm JST

Let me put it this way. The prohibition on torture is ABSOLUTE, not qualified. The converse of it is that one must, at the very least, limit it to acts they would not tolerate, regardless of the circumstances or the real / perceived qualifies of either the actors or its target. Just as one example.

Gitmo isn’t subject to the IS justice system, which is exactly why it was chosen to house foreign combatants.

If you can excuse an action if it is "not subject" to the US justice system, at that point it is no longer torture (for you, at least).

Persons suspected of a crime can be detained for 23 days without charge. And then they can be released and detained again, if Prosecutor has made a new case. Again, before being convicted, it's just a suspect.

Another example. Torture means forbidden under all circumstances. If he can be detained as long as he "is charged", it is not torture (for you).

It seems really odd to me that the US would ""cooperate"" with Japan on this one, VERY odd!!

@Kazuaki Shimazaki

Facepalm.

So much informal fallacy right there...

Mr. Taylor, this is not about 'betrayal.'

Loyalty and exalted virtue go out the door when geopolitical considerations enter the arena.

To put it bluntly, the money/power which the LDP and their close associates represent to the US is of far greater value to your higher-ups than any service you performed as a marine, as much as it may sting to hear such words spoken.

TORTURE = The act of deliberately inflicting severe physical or PSYCHOLOGICAL suffering on someone by another as a punishment or in order to fulfill some desire of the torturer or force some action from the victim.

Japan's "justice" system ROUTINELY uses psychological torture. To say that forced confessions are commonplace in Japan is an understatement.

"Ghosn's son later made $500,000 in cryptocurrency payments, authorities said."

Which means Ghosn's son is guilty of aiding and abetting and he is too is headed to Japan.

While there is a lot of discussion about the Japanese legal system that allows incarceration prior to trial, it seems that the US system is not much different:

"suburban Boston jail where he and his son, Peter Taylor, have been locked up since May. "

@viking68 Today 04:13 pm JST

I don't think they will get a lot of time in jail, but they will be interrogated (tortured) until they confess.

Article 103 ranges up to three years. If I have to place a bet, the two are going to get at least over half of that, UNsuspended. The list of things in their favor ends with the fact that Ghosn, however deplorable, isn't a murderer or terrorist. The mental aspect cannot be explained as anything but Purpose. The crime was clearly premeditated and well-planned. They are clearly aware of the wrongness of their actions, but show a clear contempt of Japan's legitimate interests - as can be seen by their chosen defence of insisting what they did wasn't a crime, in Japan, even though it is indisputedably a crime in their homeland. Remorse is undetectable. Counting crimes in America, this isn't even their first offense. Is there anything one can say in their defense?

Maybe they shouldn't have committed a crime in Japan if they didn't want to face extradition. Or they could've disappeared to a country with no extradition treaty.

That was my thinking too. It surprised me that the Taylors - Lebanese citizens - did not stay there indefinitely to ensure no extradition to Japan.

P. Smith, then why are they in jail since May? Technically it is different, but the results, unless bail is accepted is the same, right?

The DOJ and the govt are enraged, and looking for payback.

Justice is Blind, but not in Japan.

You have to deal with the petty egos of the business leaders, politicians, prosecutors, police and judges who side against the accused, not to mention the male dominated views of all of those players in the justice system.

Honestly as much as I love Japan I have to be a realist.

No foreigner will get a fair trial.

I also wonder why any western country would extradite their citizens to Japan when Japanese courts have just about never done the same alway sighting the constitution and violation of the Japanese rights opting to try the person in Japan instead and nearly always being found not guilty because evidence collected by non Japanese police is tossed out.

Kazuaki ShimazakiToday 04:50 pm JST

The crime was clearly premeditated and well-planned. They are clearly aware of the wrongness of their actions, but show a clear contempt of Japan's legitimate interests - as can be seen by their chosen defence of insisting what they did wasn't a crime, in Japan, even though it is indisputedably a crime in their homeland. Remorse is undetectable. Counting crimes in America, this isn't even their first offense. Is there anything one can say in their defense?

You are not the judge. And even in case you were, it doesn't matter if they were declared guilty in the US for other crimes previously. That doesn't make them automaticaly guilty forever.

Japanese can't understand the presumption of innoncence, or at least the Japanese Judicial system can't.

And under this archaic system, where Judge is below the Prosecutor, playing prosecutor's dog, Japan will stay in middle ages.

"Michael Taylor said he fears they will be treated unfairly in the Japanese legal system."

"They say the men will be subjected to "mental and physical torture" in Japan"

peer reviewed research:

"Torture, Forced Confessions, and Inhuman Punishments: Human Rights Abuses in the Japanese Penal System"

https://escholarship.org/content/qt63f7h7tc/qt63f7h7tc.pdf?t=n4ox4q

So, the former jail bird is now a victim. Serving in the military doesn't grant anyone a get out of jail free card.

It would be funny if he lied on his entry card about being a convicted of a crime and they charged him with that too.

If bail jumping isn’t a crime, why did Ghosn have to get in the box?

@moonbloom

Mr. Taylor, this is not about 'betrayal.'

Loyalty and exalted virtue go out the door when geopolitical considerations enter the arena.

To put it bluntly, the money/power which the LDP and their close associates represent to the US is of far greater value to your higher-ups than any service you performed as a marine, as much as it may sting to hear such words spoken.

Bingo!

The deadly white extremist groups of America will clash with their political opposition.

And because they wont be able to identify who is on what side like Pelosi indicated an unprecedented destruction like the roman empire is announced in many media platforms.

RandomToday 06:00 pm JST

If bail jumping isn’t a crime, why did Ghosn have to get in the box?

Maybe because he knew, after being locked for one year, he wouldn't be able to get a fair trial in Japan, because the Prosecutors already decided? Because he was dragged through media as guilty already? He couldn't meet his lawyers as is a standard elsewhere? Maybe because he was asked and expected to confess?

@P. Smith Today 04:55 pm JST

No. In Japan, charges don’t need to be brought for 23 days, which is 20 days longer than I’m the US. This means suspects can’t even start preparing to fight the charges for up to 23 days.

I don't blame you. I know you got this off some website. I blame those who likely don't have a background in any Continental Law system trying to crudely translate things into English, even trying to slap common law lingo on an alien system.

But let's get to the essence of the matter. In the US, within 3 days (or so), you are arraigned (brought to a judge), where the charge is explained to you, you (or your lawyer) gets to plead guilty or not guilty and they handle whether to let you have bail.

In Japan, the main selection is before you are even arrested. 85% of people processed by the prosecutorial office are never arrested. In essence, if you were even arrested, either you were arrested flagrante delicto or you are in that 15% deemed unsafe by both prosecutor and judge (who issues the arrest warrant). So now you are arrested and no you don't get to appeal since in three days you'll either be released or be dragged off with the prosecutor to Judge as he requests detention. So you still get to see Judge in three days and the charge will be explained to you.

That's where the whines about No Bail starts going. Here's a failure to understand the essence of the situation. If you were deemed safe to release, you wouldn't have been arrested, much less detained. If you were actually safe to release, then the detention order is wrong and you should go for an appeal against that. If you don't appeal that order but ask for bail, you are not contesting the determination that you are unsafe. And if you are unsafe, why are you suddenly safe if you agree to hand a bit of money (bail bond) over?

That's why while they allow you at least a theoretical chance to appeal against your detention order, you don't get bail in pre-indictment detention. And why while bail is available in theory, your odds are not that good - even if you confess the overall chance you'll get "bail" somewhere before the end of your trial is still only 1/3rd. Again, ultimately it is because the main selection is before you are arrested.

i don't wanna engage in the discussion this time.

it makes me so sad to have to explain how forcing confessions is a bad thing.

even children know that.

@Kazuaki Shimazaki

Interesting but very different from my friend that was legal counsel for my embassy who spent his entire 4 year stint in Japan dealing with the Japanese justice system.

He had a full load of cases where no charges, no lawyer, no embassy contact for well over 2 weeks even though bin many cases that violated international agreements that Japan signed.

As he put itost cases the accused often didn't even know the charge or see a lawyer until brought into court for trial forget arraignment.

Been her well over 30 years never seen a single foreigner not keep in jail untill charged or their trial. Know some just picked up because they resembled some description of a foreigner and their Japanese wives were never contacted or told even after filing missing persons report.

So please none of the supposed official false info.

One Australian I know was picked up because he looked like someone the description was big bald Gaijin that was all, for nearly 3 weeks no o e heard from him, not his wife or the embassy even after they both contacted the police to report him missing. During that time the police tried to make him confess, only after 3 weeks he was released when they actually caught the guy they really wanted. No apologies not to him or his at that point hysterically upset wife, they left Japan 3 days after his release asking family to pack their belongings and ship them. This was a little over 20 years ago but the laws have not changed not has the system and since then I have seen others, not heard but actually seen. There are 2 legal systems in Japan one for the Japanese one for the others.

"" said he feels betrayed that the U.S. would try to turn him over to Japan after his service to the country.""

Sorry Mr. Taylors, $1.3 million dollar is also a viewed as BETRAYED my many.

While I agree with the criticisms of Japan’s criminal justice system, the fact is that this guy clearly did commit a crime in Japan and there really isn’t any valid reason for him to not be extradited.

I’m all for alleged criminals being prosecuted as long as they have a fair chance to raise a defense. In Japan, that simply isn’t the case. Sad that a devolved country has such a repugnant “justice” system.

I don’t deny the problems with Japan’s system, but its beyond insane for an American to be taking that attitude. Japan’s prison population is less than 50,000, it actually has one of the lowest per capita rates in the world. The US prison population is over 2 million, one of the highest. Yeah, defendants can be detained for 23 days here, yeah prosecutors aren’t under the same disclosure obligations, and these have been identified as leading factors in wrongful convictions here. But the US has its own set of problems and they are running out of control to a scale that is orders of magnitude worse than in Japan.

I’d be way more scared of ending up in the US system than I am here.

Mr. Taylor, is a scoundrel. Apparently, he is ignorant of the U.S. judicial system, as are many of the individuals posting about the severity of conditions inside Japanese prisons. U.S. prisons are incredibly hostile environments. The rate of incarceration in the U.S. is the highest in the world. There are well over two million individuals imprisoned in the USA. Japan has 48,000. Japanese prisons are overcrowded and conditions are less than stellar, however U.S. prisons are abjectly horrible. As for being held indefinitely, prisoners in the U.S. are typically poor and oft spend long times in prison awaiting trial with no bail. Rape, sexual and physical abuse are rampant in the state prison systems in the U.S.

That Mr. Taylor considers his military service as a get out of jail free card is an indication he has some issues. Perhaps, timothy McVeigh should have used such a defense strategy.

As for barely literate anecdotal references that are minimally applicable to Mr. Taylor, such are moot.

As for positing that within three days in the U.S. you are arraigned and consequently assigned bail, there are fifty states, along with counties and municipalities and a federal system. All are different. And the jails & prisons are full of individual held for lengthy periods because they are unable to meet bail.

And for the most, those arrested plea out. There is a 93% conviction rate in U.S. Federal Courts. Conviction rates in the state, county and municipal courts differ according to crime. Felony conviction rates are very high.

So many posters horrified with Japan's barbaric, medieval, torture system of in (justice).

Strangely enough, all of them gleefully anticipating next breakfast in such a backwards country!

I KNOW I wouldn't want/wish to live in China, Saudi Arabia, NK and Russia for the exact same reasons so many lambast Japan for. Or even South Korea.

Little wonder "Who is America" is possible.

Looking forward to the sequel, pt. 10.

Japan does not use torture, Mr. Taylor. That sounds more like the official US justice system, for example Guantanamo Bay. I hope the $1.3 million from Ghosn was worth it.

Mybe not torture, but hostage taking, harassment, blackmail, extortion, and this list is not exhaustive.

There is no law against it in Japan until it suites the Japanese prosecutor (bureaucrat) to be a law.

Japan, will always want it's little pound of flesh so I think that the system will try to extort as much money as possible, santioned of course by Japans puny little judges.

Just bring them here, imprison them for a couple of years and deport them. Do the crime, do the time.

they were well paid and knew the risks.

they are tough guys. And rich.

Unfair.

Ghosn had no problem with Japan's legal system as long as he was CEO making millions of dollars each year.

Only when he got in trouble he had problems with the legal system.

It's like catching a criminal in the act and they complain about the legal system not being fair. Dumb

Follow Japan's laws and rules the same way we follow your rules and laws in your country your land.

Kazuaki ShimazakiToday  06:19 pm JST

@P. Smith Today 04:55 pm JST

No. In Japan, charges don’t need to be brought for 23 days, which is 20 days longer than I’m the US. This means suspects can’t even start preparing to fight the charges for up to 23 days.

I don't blame you. I know you got this off some website. I blame those who likely don't have a background in any Continental Law system trying to crudely translate things into English, even trying to slap common law lingo on an alien system.

But let's get to the essence of the matter. In the US, within 3 days (or so), you are arraigned (brought to a judge), where the charge is explained to you, you (or your lawyer) gets to plead guilty or not guilty and they handle whether to let you have bail.

You forgot the part in the US where they shoot you.

I agree, everyone who commits a crime in Japan but manages to get out should not be extradited back because its unfair.

Certainly.

No difference between Japan and China; none whatsoever.

In China, executions take place in front of crowds of thousands cheering supporters.

In China, executions are (often) carried out STRAIGHT after trial. Operative word is straight after.

In China, relatives are forced to pay for the execution bullet; failure to pay may result in prison and/or fines. Or both.

This is not the Peeping saying it; anyone can check the veracity of my assertions.

So I see; Japan is just like China.

Yet you are all happy to stay there.

Amazing to say the least.

Wasn’t there an idiom that goes something like ‘If you can’t do the time...’?

Japan does not use torture, Mr. Taylor. That sounds more like the official US justice system, for example Guantanamo Bay.

Once upon a time in my youth while serving shore patrol duty in Yokosuka, we would occasionally have to transport US military prisoners who had committed some heinous crime in Japan to and from Kurihama prison to the base so they could get medical work done, along with two Japanese guards. No speaking to other prisoners outside of one 20 minute break per day. Never make eye contact with a guard. Punishments included sitting in a chair facing a wall with your hands on your knees for 12 hours. Let me tell you, being locked up in a Japanese prison is basically mental torture, I would not wish it upon anyone. Ask yourself why there is an episode of "Locked Up Abroad" focused on Japan.

@P. SmithFeb. 2 06:45 pm JST

Are you disagreeing that the Japanese police can hold you for 23 days without charging you?

OK, where should I begin. First, the requesting authority is the prosecutor, the authorizing authority is the judge. Second, what's charge? Japan knows of the arrest warrant, the request for pre-indictment detention (which is the closest equivalent to "charge"), and the decision to prosecute (the closest equivalent to "indictment").

Okay. This is simply further evidence of how deeply flawed is the Japanese “justice” system.

Maybe you would like to explain why you feel that a system that avoids even arresting you if custody is un-necessary is automatically worse than one where you are arrested and then bailed.

@Antiquesaving Feb. 2 06:47 pm JST

Here we go with the unverifiable hearsay, no-detail testimonials. I will point out that even accounts that are critical don't tend to assert something that low. Such as:

https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-videotape-at-the-kawasaki-kmart.html (about an event that happened in 2002, so more or less the same time as your case)

For all the gripes, she got the lawyer. She got the consulate assistance but was poorly served. Instead of having faith in the justice system of a nominal ally, the consular agent recommended she surrender - or maybe Mr. Consular Agent also didn't believe her. She was treated with mercy, but more importantly, the Japanese police didn't just close the file and they didn't bury the finding of her innocence in the mud either.

Heck, even in your story, Mr. Australian was released because the police didn't stop their scan after arresting him, but went on searching for other potential targets.

@P. Smith Feb. 2 07:13 pm JST

I get that you have legal training

I'll be honest here because I don't want to make myself more than what I am. I dabble in law. I'm not going to claim I have legal training. My advantage, if it counts, is that I haven't been indoctrinated in any one system until I judge every other system against my "native" system.

@AntiquesavingFeb. 2 10:17 pm JST

Last time the USA tried to extradite a Japanese man murdering his wife in the USA

Name of man. Links. If there's a link to the actual judgment, even better, because newspapers often lack the technique or inclination to really summarize judgments properly.

They do the same thing with parental abduction the western countries return the children to Japan under the Hague convention then when it is the other way around Japanese courts refuse to stating again the constitution overrides the international treaties and agreements.

Again. Links. Because the only one case I can remember in any useful detail is a certain James Cook. When the court refused his request, he was so destitute he was subsisting in a room in some friend's apartment:

(5) 抗告人は，平成２８年２月に相手方及び本件子らと居住していた米国の自宅が競売されたため，同年８月頃，自宅を明け渡し，知人宅の一室を借りて住むようになった。 (from 087349_hanrei.pdf)

His apologists might claim its due to all the lawsuits, but until he gets the money somehow he'll be in that room, and while the treaty does say not to look too closely, it doesn't say not to look at these realities at all as in "grave risk that his or her return would ... place the child in an intolerable situation."

The details do matter.

It would be better for Japan to let this go away. The bird has gotten out of the cage.

"It would be better for Japan to let this go away. The bird has gotten out of the cage."

I am pretty sure you've heard of the word "precedent". At least in passing.

Perhaps you're unaware of what a Legal Precedent is/entails, thus will give you a bye on this one.

Japan's Judiciary cannot let this "go away" even if they wanted to.

I don't know why it is believed among you that there is no presumption of innocence in Japan. I come from Europe and it doesn't work here in a few countries (Spain, Poland). Additionally, human rights were openly violated in France (yellow vest protests). You have a false belief about the West

Nothing to do with immigration controls. The extradition is based on charges under Article 103. Only a tortured interpretation of the law would permit conviction... which is why the US court's deference to the extradition request is lamentable. Make no mistake, a Japanese court will have no problem convicting them because of the attention to the case and the foreignness of the "culprits" ... they did not harbor a person on the run from the law who had recently committed a crime, and they did not help a convicted criminal escape from jail. There is really no other use for this law. It is a farce but so is much of the façade of the Japanese legal system. They will never get confessions from these people (notably because they would be perjuring themselves to confessing to having committed a crime they did not). There is a hole in the Japanese legal system that needs to be patched. But can't let a little hole in the legal system prevent the prosecution when so much pride is on the line...

Quotes from an ole Public defender:

“If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime”

“Believe me, I’ve got the perfect crime“

"Make no mistake, a Japanese court will have no problem convicting them because of the attention to the case and the foreignness of the "culprits" ... they did not harbor a person on the run from the law who had recently committed a crime, and they did not help a convicted criminal escape from jail. There is really no other use for this law. It is a farce but so is much of the façade of the Japanese legal system. "

OK then:

"Article 93　(1)　The court must, when granting bail, set the amount of the bail bond.

3)　When the court grants bail, it may specify the residence of the accused or add other appropriate conditions to the bail."

"Article 96　(1)　The court may, upon the request of a public prosecutor or ex officio, make a ruling to rescind the bail or suspension of the execution of detention when:

(i)　the accused has been summoned but does not appear without a justifiable reason;

(ii)　the accused has fled or there is probable cause to suspect that the accused may flee;"

PTN

Hoping you know the consequences of Bail rescission.

"Article 98　(1)　If a ruling to rescind bail or the suspension of execution of detention has been made, or if the term of suspension of detention has expired, a public prosecutor's assistant officer, judicial police official or an official of the penal institution must, under the direction of a public prosecutor, commit the accused in an penal institution after showing said accused a transcript of the detention warrant and a transcript of the written ruling rescinding bail or the suspension of execution of detention or a transcript of the written ruling on suspension for a designated term of execution of detention.

(2)　When said officer or official is unable to show the documents in the preceding paragraph to the accused because said person does not have the documents in their possession and in cases requiring urgency, said person may, notwithstanding the preceding paragraph and under the direction of a public prosecutor, commit the accused in penal institution immediately...."

"Code of Criminal Procedure (Part I and Part II)"

"http://www.japaneselawtranslation.go.jp/law/detail/?id=3364&vm=02&re=02"

Have fun.

@Peeping_Tom Today 06:27 am JST

After a thoughtful reading and analyzing of your transcription of the Code of Criminal Procedure

I find no clues that any crime was committed by Ghosn or the Tailors.

Ghosn's bail was rescinded.

Apart of that there's no meaningful information there.

"Ghosn's bail was rescinded."

And what happens after Rescission?!

Did you read/understand Art. 98?

I seriously doubt you did.

"I find no clues that any crime was committed by Ghosn or the Tailors."

Escaping/evading/jumping Bail is a crime.

Even in Japan.

And contrary to what the Defence wants to make you believe.

I thank the posters, especially Smith and Shimazaki, for explanations regarding the legal system.

And what happens after Rescission?!

you get re-detained. no harm done.

Escaping/evading/jumping Bail is a crime.

Not a crime in Japan apparently.

"Their lawyers had argued they could not be extradited because Japanese penal code does not make it a crime to help someone “bail jump,” and that they could only be charged if Japanese authorities were already pursuing Ghosn pre-escape."

Of course they'll say that. They're the Defence.

That's what they're expected to do.

However,

"But Cabell declined to second-guess Japan’s interpretation of its own law as making it illegal to enable the escape of someone who has committed a crime. He said the Taylors’ conduct “literally brings them squarely within the purview” of the law."

By escaping Bail, Ghosn committed a crime. Even if presumably innocent of the initial charge.

The Taylors?

Aiding and Abetting is a crime.

Even in Japan.

I am trained under English/UK Law.

Just like Cabell I am in no position to "second-guess Japan's interpretation of its own law as making it illegal to enable the escape of someone who has committed a crime".

Japan is NOT rule by Common Law Rules.

The English rules don't apply in Japan.

Same as American rules.

Most posting here "forget" this simple yet paramount consideration.

"Carlos Ghosn's accused escape plotters can be extradited to Japan, U.S. judge says"

"https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nissan-ghosn-idUSKBN25V2J6"

@Kazuaki Shimazaki

If you cannot find more examples then you are not trying but then it does get hard when the lawyer for the Japanese involved and government threaten those that post the information and name names.

Anyone that thinks any foreigner get treated equally in Japan is in complete denial of reality this also applies to the treatment of mixed Japanese just ask my adult children.

But the best example of prosecutorial misconduct is Govinda Prasad Mainali, they knew the evidence did not match him and hit it or as the prosecution put it chose not to present it but also did not tell the defence.

15 years in prison

Japan did not have a law requiring the prosecution to turn over all information and evidence then in 2005 in the typical Japanese legal system way it made changes to the criminal code requiring prosecutors to present a list of evidence gathered but without any enforcement of penalties if they don't, so basically business as usual.

My wife, my ex wife, her father now in his 90s and a retired lawyer all admit the system does not treat foreigners equally, let's face it when a black man was told by a eye glasses store to leave they don't serve blacks and he went to courts the courts made it clear discrimination laws do not apply to non Japanese.

But then this site has had dozens of articles detailing wrong doing by police, prosecution, courts directed at foreigners so have the other English publications but you will rarely find them in Japanese language publications.

1) it's very clear at this point of the shread that Japan does torture and discriminate.

2) By escaping Bail, Ghosn committed a crime??!

The point 2) is still open to discussion and/or interpretation.

Can any kind contributor post a reference here of the law that Ghosn broke?

The US has established that what the taylors did amount to an extraditable offense but im more inclined to believe the experts here who dont agree.

Im just wondering, if any of us here who are not accused of any wrongdoing is smuggled out of Japan by someone, did that someone commit a crime?

2) By escaping Bail, Ghosn committed a crime??!

The point 2) is still open to discussion and/or interpretation.

Can any kind contributor post a reference here of the law that Ghosn broke?

By running away in violation of his bail conditions Ghosn has run afoul of, Art. 96(1) of the Code of Criminal Procedure which gives the granting judge the right to rescind the bail and have Ghosn returned to prison (and forfeit the bail bond).

Im just wondering, if any of us here who are not accused of any wrongdoing is smuggled out of Japan by someone, did that someone commit a crime?

Well, if you haven't been arrested then there is no need for you to be "smuggled" out of the country, you can freely leave on your own.

@i@n

I am not saying the charges are not valid or that there was no crime.

I am however saying the idea that any foreigner can get a fair trial in Japan is fantasy.

I am also pointing out that in nearly all cases where it is the USA or other country with extradition treaty with Japan, the Japanese courts have nearly always refused the request saying it was a violation of the accused Japanese's rights.

Now I am not going to bother sighting examples posting links etc.. because people that want to find the facts can and many of the examples are right here in past JT Articles, so those claiming they cannot find this information are not even trying.

@bokuda

Although this is UK Law it reflects the general position concerning such matters in either Civilian Systems (Japan/France), or Common Law (UK/Australia/US).

"FAIL TO SURRENDER TO BAIL "

"A. Statutory provision 1. Section 6 of the Bail Act 1976 states:

1) If a person who has been released on bail in criminal proceedings fails without reasonable cause to surrender to custody he shall be guilty of an offence; and

2) If a person who:

(a) has been released on bail in criminal proceedings, and

b) having reasonable cause therefore, has failed to surrender to custody, fails to surrender to custody at the appointed place as soon after the appointed time as is reasonably practicable, he shall be guilty of an offence.”

An offence under subsection (1) or (2) is punishable either on summary conviction or, in the Crown Court, as if it were a criminal contempt of court. The maximum sentence in a magistrates’ court is 3 months imprisonment.1 If the matter is committed to the Crown Court for sentence, or dealt with there, the maximum sentence is 12 months custody and the sentence is subject to the usual appellate procedures."

Japan's system is not too far from this definition.

S.6 (2) (b) is peremptory:

"Your" boy Ghosn is guilty of an offence. Such people have invariably been deemed "criminals" where I come from and work.

Now, very sorry as I need to start early in the morning.

Well, if you haven't been arrested then there is no need for you to be "smuggled" out of the country, you can freely leave on your own.

Of course there would be no need to, under that circumstance.

Im merely, i thought it was obvious, trying to establish, whether the act of "smuggling" is a crime whether or not the person smuggled was an accused or not.

Obviously, again, i thought, because of the assertion by some that the taylors committed no crime by smuggling ghosn becaue ghosn didnt commit a crime

Of course there would be no need to, under that circumstance.

Im merely, i thought it was obvious, trying to establish, whether the act of "smuggling" is a crime whether or not the person smuggled was an accused or not.

I'm still a bit unclear about what scenario you are trying to get at, it isn't obvious. If you haven't committed a crime, then you can freely leave the country anytime you want. So how would it be possible for you to be "smuggled" out, in the sense that whoever helped you leave the country would simply be helping you do something you are legally entitled to do anyway, so where would the criminal act lie?

Immigration law and border controls don't work in the way you seem to be getting at - they are mainly concerned with preventing people being smuggled in, not smuggled out.

In this case, Ghosn could be described as having been smuggled out solely because he was violating his bail orders, not because he was violating Japanese immigration law.

Lets hypothetically say though that he had never been arrested and was still CEO of Nissan, law abiding foreign resident. And lets say he had hired those same guys to secretly get him to the airport and onto a chartered plane that left Japan without informing immigration authorities. Depending on his visa type at worst he might have breached the conditions which could complicate his ability to re-enter Japan on the same visa, but he wouldn't have committed a crime, nor would anyone who helped him.

The Taylors have sewn their own bed.

Antiquesaving

I am however saying the idea that any foreigner can get a fair trial in Japan is fantasy.

I am not disputing that, i actually have no knowledge about that.

Assuming thats true its still no excuse for anyone who committed a crime not to be tried for a crime committed.

You actually want all criminals here and abroad not to be convicted and jailed just because youre convinced that they will not get a fair trial?

If the taylors dont want to get indicted then they ahould not have committed a crime right?

Or at least they should have made sure theyre not caught.

Last thing, if you think they will not get a fair trial then i think thats what you should fight for, for them to get a fair trial. Not getting a trial at all doesnt seem fair.

 So how would it be possible for you to be "smuggled" out, in the sense that whoever helped you leave the country would simply be helping you do something you are legally entitled to do anyway, so where would the criminal act lie?

You saying they complied with proper immigration procedures going out of the country?

If thats the case then he wasnt smuggled out yeah

TOKYO, Jan. 6 2020 --

"Leaving without going through proper embarkation procedures and using unauthorized means comprise a crime of illegal departure," Mori (Japanese Justice Minister Masako Mori)

so... it is a "crime of illegal departure"

TOKYO, April 1st 2019

三　逃亡犯罪人引渡法（昭和二十八年法律第六十八号）の規定により仮拘禁許可状又は拘禁許可状が発せられている者

src: https://elaws.e-gov.go.jp/document?law_unique_id=326CO0000000319_20200401_501AC0000000063

ooh! they conveniently added a the crime of: Leaving the country while on bail or detention.

huge mistake

NOT 2019, it's TOKYO, April 1st 2020

They added the crime 4 months after Ghosn escape

Scary. I thought America was better than this.

Some ask I thought America was better than this. Really? Look who America put in charge four years ago. The aftermath speaks for itself.

As far as this case goes the crimes are obvious. You really want the mercs to take over the system?

KevinToday  02:31 am JST

Once upon a time in my youth while serving shore patrol duty in Yokosuka, we would occasionally have to transport US military prisoners who had committed some heinous crime in Japan to and from Kurihama prison to the base so they could get medical work done, along with two Japanese guards. No speaking to other prisoners outside of one 20 minute break per day. Never make eye contact with a guard. Punishments included sitting in a chair facing a wall with your hands on your knees for 12 hours. Let me tell you, being locked up in a Japanese prison is basically mental torture, I would not wish it upon anyone.

Yea...you'd have to be former Special Forces or something to stand up to that kind of torture.

The prosecutor is going to play tough but this guy won’t break so it’s gonna be a long long time before this ends. Plus the whole time Japan will be showing how it’s injustice system works and shaming itself in the worlds eyes even as it fumbles to hold an international sporting event. Pride comes before the fall.

It will be a good lesson to him about respecting Japanese laws. And I guess the use of bail will be out of question for him. What a pity...

It will be a good lesson to him about respecting Japanese laws.

He respected all Japanese laws at that moment in time.

The bail-jumping law was created 4 months after the incident.

Immigration Control Law Update (01/04/2020) Article 25-2-iii

https://elaws.e-gov.go.jp/document?law_unique_id=326CO0000000319_20200401_501AC0000000063

https://elaws.e-gov.go.jp/document?law_unique_id=326CO0000000319_20200401_501AC0000000063

Now there's some light reading! bokuda, care to point out the law in question?

This tells you it's illegal to exit Japan if you're on detention(1), pending of sentence(2) or a detention order has been issued against you.

（出国確認の留保）

第二十五条の二　入国審査官は、本邦に在留する外国人が本邦外の地域に赴く意図をもつて出国しようとする場合において、関係機関から当該外国人が次の各号のいずれかに該当する者である旨の通知を受けているときは、前条の出国の確認を受けるための手続がされた時から二十四時間を限り、その者について出国の確認を留保することができる。

一　死刑若しくは無期若しくは長期三年以上の懲役若しくは禁錮に当たる罪につき訴追されている者又はこれらの罪を犯した疑いにより逮捕状、勾引状、勾留状若しくは鑑定留置状が発せられている者

二　禁錮以上の刑に処せられ、その刑の全部につき執行猶予の言渡しを受けなかつた者で、刑の執行を終わるまで、又は執行を受けることがなくなるまでのもの（当該刑につき仮釈放中の者及びその一部の執行猶予の言渡しを受けて執行猶予中の者を除く。）

三　逃亡犯罪人引渡法（昭和二十八年法律第六十八号）の規定により仮拘禁許可状又は拘禁許可状が発せられている者

２　入国審査官は、前項の規定により出国の確認を留保したときは、直ちに同項の通知をした機関にその旨を通報しなければならない。

It's the only thing I was able to find related to bail-jumping or escaping.

The issued date is 1 Apr. 2020

On the bright side, Japanese investigators and prosecutors will NEVER break these two, especially the old man. Even if they convict, those two will be a thorn in their buns for years to come. I bet they give 'em back- watch.

"ooh! they conveniently added a the crime of: Leaving the country while on bail or detention."

Nulllum crimen, nula poena....i.e. the non retroactivity principle allows for exceptions.

No matter how clearly drafted a legal provision may be in any legal system, there is an inevitable element of judicial interpretation. 

There's lots of Statutory interpretation in Civil Systems of Law.

Much more than reliance of Common Law Precedents.

This is Japan.

Not UK.

Not America.

Michael Taylor will be tortured under Conditions that are illegal in the US.

Taylor should appeal to the US courts that for example, not allowing detainees,let alone convicts, the right to sleep, is under US law, torture.

They did it for money and the belief that they wouldn't get caught (the same reason many people commit crimes). Things tend to change though when you get caught! Hard to sympathize with these two. They'll probably only get a few years in prison in Japan as they didn't kill anyone, so they'll be able to experience a bit of old fashioned Japanese prison omotenashi. It will certainly have a deterrent effect and that is main the idea of prison, isn't it?

These 2 heroes honnored the United States Army Special Forces motto, De oppresso liber.

They deserve a medal.

The Japanese criminal system may or may not be better than some other countries mentioned above, but it does not change the fact that it is generally unfair and that there is psychological torture practiced regularly. While daily life for many foreigners is not too bad, I definitely do not want to get caught up in the criminal system here.

@bokuda

I doubt they helped Mr. Ghosn escape merely on heroic principle, though I don't doubt principle factored into their decision. They did it for money. If Ghosn didn't have money, then he'd still be here rotting in detention.

as can be seen by their chosen defence of insisting what they did wasn't a crime, in Japan, even though it is indisputedably a crime in their homeland

You do know that different countries have different laws, right? For example, openly carrying firearms in certain parts of the USA is legal, but try that in other countries (including in Japan) and very soon you will be surrounded by armed police pointing large guns at you.

MlodinowToday 10:19 am JST

You do know that different countries have different laws, right?

Sure. but it does mean that his morality should be that this is wrong and he should have an expectation that there is a law there, or an adjacent law might cover the activity he wants to do.

To use your gun example, say a Japanese found out (very loosely) that America allows guns. So he goes to America, buys a gun and not only open carries it but even shoots at random birds as he strolls. He is arrested (fortunately, at least he was not shot - which sometimes happens when US police feel their suspect has a gun...) and his defense is "But you don't have a law against owning guns!"

@AntiquesavingFeb. 3 09:02 am JST

But the best example of prosecutorial misconduct is Govinda Prasad Mainali, they knew the evidence did not match him and hit it or as the prosecution put it chose not to present it but also did not tell the defence.

For all my sympathies to Govinda, that wasn't even the case, nor was it the main reason he was convicted. In essence, they found Govinda's sperm and hair on a leftover condom, and some spit on Victim's breast from a 3rd person. Of course, just because there also happens to be some spit from a 3rd person doesn't mean Govinda didn't do it. The prosecutors decide to combine the DNA evidence from the condom and circumstantial evidence (to include him apparently gotten some money by mysterious means) and prosecuted him. Since they were not required to turn over exculpatory evidence, to not do so cannot be considered prosecutorial misconduct.

The first-instance court acquitted him, deciding the evidence was too circumstantial and the possibility of a 3rd person was not eliminated. The prosecutors appealed (which as typical in a continental law jurisdiction they are allowed to do), and the higher court judges decided the circumstantial evidence taken in combination is enough. Given this situation, the spit on victim's breast would not have affected the result from the first-instance court, and that it would affect the higher-court's opinion is a hopeful assumption (see below).

If there's a problem with this story, it's more with the High Court judges than the prosecutors. Granted, they are allowed to review on the basis of facts, but to reverse an acquittal on the basis of interpretation of circumstantial evidence seems to be making too light of the role of the first-instance court and the weight of its judgment. Unfortunately, the previous mania for protection of defendant rights have been steadily chipped away worldwide the past 50 years in favor of "justice" and "victims rights". Even common law jurisdictions increasingly have sentencing reviews for "manifestly inadequate sentences" (which as we are learning bitterly in HK is an invitation to slip evidence and arguments that did not make the first and supposed to be only instance trial in through the back door to a trio of "Red judges") and in some jurisdictions even the double jeopardy provision is being restricted, while in the UK you are now permitted to make negative inferences from exercising the right to silence.

Given this new mania, I don't think legislating away the appeal for the prosecution side is a realistic option.

@bokuda Feb. 3 09:33 am JST

By escaping Bail, Ghosn committed a crime??!

Ghosn didn't break any laws by escaping bail. That's agreed on. However, that's not the same as the Taylors not breaking any laws. This is what they broke:

第百三条 罰金以上の刑に当たる罪を犯した者[...]を蔵匿し、又は隠避させた者は、三年以下の懲役又は三十万円以下の罰金に処する。

BTW, regarding your other quote, you misread its effect. It doesn't change the legal status of the foreigner or impose any new obligations on him. It allows the immigration official to, under the listed conditions, intentionally "reserve" (a.k.a. delay) the confirmation (確認) of his departure for 24 hours. Note the legal precision involved - the official isn't even authorized to "ban" (禁止) the departure, he is only allowed to intentionally "reserve" the "confirmation" - yes, the effect is the same in that the foreigner isn't leaving the country, but the precision here is still noteworthy.

Since they were not required to turn over exculpatory evidence, to not do so cannot be considered prosecutorial misconduct.

there! that's exactly the problem here.

prosecutors change laws at their convenience.

there is no legislative with public representatives that protect the best interest of the community.

the politicians sometimes propose laws, but the final decision is always up to prosecutors.

Japanese justice is the perfect example of an authoritarian, totalitarian, system.

@Kazuaki Shimazaki

第百三条 罰金以上の刑に当たる罪を犯した者[...]を蔵匿し、又は隠避させた者は、三年以下の懲役又は三十万円以下の罰金に処する。

thanks for the input. now I can see it more clear.

the problem comes to interpretation... of the words 罪を犯した者

I'm not capable of tell apart if Ghosn falls into that category... Japanese lacks of verbal conjugations.

Some people here make it sound like serving time in a North Korean prison is first class compared to the deep dark dungeons that Japan has to offer and they torture you on a daily basis with whips and chains (and worse). If it were that bad I'd escape Japan yesterday. But that's what you get when you hate Japan first then play armchair lawyer later. It seems we have some accuracy issues.

They did it for money and the belief that they wouldn't get caught

Exactly and they won't do that much time anyway. The prison sentencing is much shorter in Japan compared to US standards and you don't have to worry about becoming someone's prison prag like you would in Rikers Island. They probably won't even get a year and for a seven figure sum to help out Ghosn? Now that's a deal. It makes me think about quitting my day job and helping people escape for the right fee. Then when they get out of Japan prison they get a free ticket back home.

KevinFeb. 3  02:31 am JST

Japan does not use torture, Mr. Taylor. That sounds more like the official US justice system, for example Guantanamo Bay.

Once upon a time in my youth while serving shore patrol duty in Yokosuka, we would occasionally have to transport US military prisoners who had committed some heinous crime in Japan to and from Kurihama prison to the base so they could get medical work done, along with two Japanese guards. No speaking to other prisoners outside of one 20 minute break per day. Never make eye contact with a guard. Punishments included sitting in a chair facing a wall with your hands on your knees for 12 hours. Let me tell you, being locked up in a Japanese prison is basically mental torture, I would not wish it upon anyone. Ask yourself why there is an episode of "Locked Up Abroad" focused on Japan.

Did you ever ask the opinion of the victim’s family of these heinous crimes, especially when they will never see, touch, hold, kiss, or talk to their loved one anymore for all of eternity?  They may disagree with you. If such heinous crimes were committed against your family, would you feel the same way, even try to get the criminals released?

@asiafriend

i@nFeb. 3  12:37 am JST

I agree, everyone who commits a crime in Japan but manages to get out should not be extradited back because its unfair.

Really?  This applies to murder, rape, arson especially with human victims, and so many other examples?  Are you hiding some nefarious past actions?

I believe the sarcasm went over your head. If you read all of i@n's posts, you will see that is not the actual position being argued.

Japan does not use torture, Mr. Taylor. That sounds more like the official US justice system, for example Guantanamo Bay.

I checked the US embassy's website about the criminal system in Japan and they said nothing about "torture". And "torture"? Working with some of my office mates is "torture", so what does "torture" mean exactly to some of these armchair lawyers in Japan?

I checked the US embassy's website about the criminal system in Japan and they said nothing about "torture".

-Wikipedia-

Critics say prolonged detention and interrogations to force confessions violates the prohibition of torture. Thus international human rights are violated because there is no presumption of innocence, psychological torture is not prevented and there are cases without access to council during interrogations.

-Human Rights Watch-

The practice to refuse the release of those who deny their crimes can violate the prohibition of torture, as it uses sufferings caused by prolonged detention and interrogation to force confession. It also violates international human rights standards including the presumption of innocence, the prevention of torture, and access to counsel during questioning.

-Herald Tribune-

"Especially if it's a big case, even if the accused hasn't done anything, the authorities will seek a confession through psychological torture."

@nishikat

Just in 1 min of googling.

Oh, please. Tell me what website would you trust, and probably I can search it for you.

Critics say prolonged detention and interrogations to force confessions violates the prohibition of torture. 

The neutrality of this article is disputed

(At the top of same page)

And...

It violates the Constitution of Japan due to a lack of physical freedom, the right to remain silent and the right to a fair trial.[citation needed] **

I think I will stick to what the US embassy page says:

During this period, the police are required to inform you of the crime of which you are suspected, of your right to remain silent**

Generally people who hate Japan first then play armchair lawyer later are men...older...in Japan for a long time and in a rut in their lives. When you meet them in a bar the only thing they have to talk about is how Japan sucks so much and how they know the facts more then everyone else and how they are somehow legal experts (as well as trade experts [those non tariff trade barriers they know so much about], as well as that of other fields). They say the same thing and you would think they have memorized the same sales script or something.

@nishikat

[sarcasm]

OK, you convinced me.

there's no torture.

have a good day, sir!

[/sarcasm]

In case some of you don't know, here in Japan, lawyers are not allowed to sit with you during police interrogations. The "torture" part is not necessarily physical, but psychological. They repeatedly ask you the same questions over and over and it is not uncommon for these interrogations to last upwards of 8+ hours each time. Yes, EACH TIME. Most people crack under this prolonged method of interrogation because you just want to get out of there as quickly as possible. That's the part that will get you, not knowing when the questionings are going to be over and not knowing your rights. You do have the right to remain silent and not say anything, but they'll still do their best to get some sort of statement from you and sign and fingerprint it before sending you to jail(in most cases) or letting you go home(if they don't think the prosecutor will accept their case against you). Either way, the lengthy questioning is what gets people confessing to things. If you have a story, stick to it.