Mitsubishi board considers new allegations of unreported payments to Ghosn

Despite overflowing compassionate opinions for Ghosn by foreigners, the wind is blowing against him as his wrongdoings coming out one after another.

Never have I seen a Japanese company go after its own employee like this before. Normally when there is a criminal investigation it is the Police that are uncovering the facts.... but not in this case. The "facts" are magically appearing and being handed over to them. Ghosn could be a criminal... but this still stinks and it has made me distrustful of the Japanese around me a bit.

Despite overflowing compassionate opinions for Ghosn by foreigners, the wind is blowing against him as his wrongdoings coming out one after another.

Consider what you are saying here, a foreign executive who does not read nor write Japanese, in a JAPANESE corporation, has had the ability to move that much cash around the world and NO ONE in the company knew about it or helped him?

You have NO idea what it's like for a foreigner in a Japanese company. None. People who dont live nor work here are going to read these articles and think something else, but anyone who has lived in Japan for any length of time knows differently.

He may be guilty, but I am finding it harder and harder to believe that he is, as far too many "allegations" are popping out of the woodwork. Seemingly in an attempt to keep him detained and away from the media.

Every time there is talk about bail "new" allegations are somehow found.

Schopenhauer has a good point. These are still allegations and need to be proven in court but if he did all of what he is accused of and this is proven in a court of law then I would imagine there will be some fairly severe punishment doled out.

On the other hand I agree with both other posters. Publicly traded companies are required by law to have internal accounting controls to prevent this. There were failures a Nissan and Mitsubishi to catch this if it all happened as stated.

Finally as Saiko states I have also have not seen Japanese companies go after their own employees. The usual reaction is to circle the wagons.

I still believe the indefinite incarceration (or whichever term you want to use) and interrogation method in Japan is not good.

This seems to be a divisive issue. As a long term resident of Japan I am not into picking sides I just want this thing to be properly tried in court. I would also like to see Japan change the way they interrogate and hold those convicted of a crime. Any one of us posting on this website could be subjected to this if we are even accused of something.

This case is very interesting and it will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

SaikoPhysco said " it has made me distrustful of the Japanese around me a bit."

Japanese what ? men ? women ? or govt ?

Mitsubishi board considers new allegations of unreported payments to Ghosn

Well it"s not necessary because they have share same thing with Nissan than Ghosn is Guilty.

They do this, might have same interest with Saikawa for this matter.

Never have I seen a Japanese company go after its own employee like this before. Normally when there is a criminal investigation it is the Police that are uncovering the facts.... but not in this case. The "facts" are magically appearing and being handed over to them. Ghosn could be a criminal... but this still stinks and it has made me distrustful of the Japanese around me a bit.

This is true, what Ghosn receive is really in opposite way.

If the NMBV payments were indeed made to Ghosn, he needs to be given an opportunity to explain how and why that was done. And beyond that, whether it was illegal or not needs to be determined. That the other two directors didn’t know until recently appears to me to be a case of dereliction of duty on their part.

Saikawa has denounced Ghosn as "the mastermind" behind schemes to use company money and assets for personal gain.

And you were supposedly his protege and he your mentor. So what does that say about you?

I am honestly surprised France hasn't intervened yet. How can the international media not condemn the Japanese judiciary and their treatment of people? This is ridiculous. Rememer, he is not even convinced of anything, yet they treat him like a mass murderer. If he had ran over a pedestrian, they would've probably released him by now. This is all about Mitsubishi corporate war for power at the top.

Corporate governance? Can't they control their own companies?

Do executives in Japan have the ability to just move seemingly unlimited amounts of money around, and no-one checks?

'Hey Taro san, I just need $8 million transferred here...for dinner.'

'Yeah, sure boss.

REALLY???

Lol...I'm working for the wrong businesses; I get scowled at for just requesting more colour copying ink!

But, if these ‘dubious’ payments were made, shouldn’t those who made the payments be in the cell next to Ghosn?

I honestly don't believe a single word coming out of both Nissan and Mitsubishi. They are in the wonderful position of being able to dream up anything they like or take anything that was approved and then deny it was ever approved or agreed upon to remove any blame from themselves. The travesty of this case is not just the fact that Ghosn is incapacitated defence wise and the the bunch at Nissan and Mitsubishi are free to make up, change and alter anything they please in order to make their case.

Being kept in isolation with limited access to legal representation, and having freedom taken away in a guilty till proven guilty type scenario for a non-violent crime accusation, Japanese or not seems just plain wrong to me.

Why it all seems so particularly odd, is the large corporate issues/scandals, Olympus, Tepco, Takata, Nissan, Subaru, Toray, Toshiba, Kobe Steel to name just a few usually result in a bunch of old guys bowing and saying sorry taking a wee pay cut and thats that.. (and some of those far more reaching, dangerous and terrible than someone in a CEO position probably being guided to call some financial arrangement the wrong thing..)

IF there was wrong doing there is no way he did it alone, thats not how corporations work, he wouldn't have direct access to accounts, there would be numerous finance workers involved, memos and agreements to sign , it stinks of a hit job from a bunch of probably equally "guilty" cowards who couldn't remove him in a more normal manner.

Yep, this is all scary on several levels, like others, if Ghosn is guilty, NAIL him in a court or shut the hell up already!

As for Nissan/Mitsubishi supposed ""management"" the gross utter incompetence  on FULL DISPLAY is staggeringly high & IF Ghosn is guilty of any of these many allegations, then CLEARLY many Japanese should be in detention as well or have been summarily FIRED, yet here were are in this BIZARRE world

And yes sadly the repercussions for foreigners IN or considering working in Japan in management are now on the front burner bigtime!

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NEITHER Nissan nor Mitsubishi, nor the prosecution is pulling this out of the air.

There is hard evidence.

Apparently - according to other Japanese news sources- - Ghosn moved money to the Dutch subsidiary, and then with the knowledge AND help of some other indiviudal /s (?) in executive position with the Dutch Subsidiary - Ghosn payed himself.

This was done secretly without the approval of its board of directors.

When the investigation brings all the pieces together Ghosn could face embezzlement charges.

There's more to come.

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Japanese what ? men ? women ? or govt ?

People. No need to go further than that. It covers all the bases.

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Lindsey : But, if these ‘dubious’ payments were made, shouldn’t those who made the payments be in the cell next to Ghosn?

Well, if they live in a foreign country . . it rather makes the logistics difficult.

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Gee What the heck has Ghosn been thinking and spending all his days at Nissan for!

@Semperfi - Ghosn could face embezzlement charges

Embezzlement charges? If there was evidence of him actually ‘embezzling’ money it would already have been revealed.

I love coffee :  I am honestly surprised France hasn't intervened yet.

France - the French Minster of Finance, in fact - has told Renault to release ghosn.

Rebault board has stated this week they will meet to discuss replacing Ghosn.

If there was evidence of him actually ‘embezzling’ money it would already have been revealed.

No, that doesn’t sound right. There hasn’t been a trial yet, why/where/how would the evidence have been released?

Now Saikawa persuaded Osamu to fabricate nad create hysteria all for the sake of buying back Renault majority shares

This sounds like a compliance issue and, if true, would result in the the company rules being amended and the person, in this case Ghosn, losing his position as CEO. But is it illegal? The media, based on Nissan's leaks, want readers to draw that conclusion but they have all been very careful the use the word "improper" and not "illegal". It's probably like the payments to the woman in France, probably improper but they said they weren't illegal.

the problem here is the Prosecutors, and Nissan, using systematic "leaks" to the media hope that it means they don't really have to prove anything!

That is what is "dubious and improper"!

@Semperfi

France has said that they see no option but to replace Ghosn because the company can't continue indefinitely without a head and, since Japan's justice system is holding Ghosn hostage, they need to find a replacement. It was made clear that it has nothing to die with his guilt or innocence, but simply a matter of business. Renault lawyers still say they haven't seen enough evidence to say Ghosn is guilty of anything. Improper maybe, but probably not illegal...

NEITHER Nissan nor Mitsubishi, nor the prosecution is pulling this out of the air. There is hard evidence.

And you have proof of this hard evidence? Right trusting a Japanese media outlet. You are truly one naive person if you think for one second that Japanese media can be trusted to provide infallible news.

Apparently - according to other Japanese news sources- - Ghosn moved money to the Dutch subsidiary, and then with the knowledge AND help of some other indiviudal /s (?) in executive position with the Dutch Subsidiary - Ghosn payed himself.

You actually think that Ghosen went to a bank and transferred the cash, or did it from within his own office electronically WITHOUT anyone within the company being aware?

One, amounts of cash that large, are continually flagged by governments around the world to prevent money laundering and any illegal activities. Bank transfers of that amount would be checked, and its not going to be a phone call to Ghosen either.

I couldn't transfer a "measley" (in comparison) $1'0,000 to my sister's bank account in the states to cover tuition costs for my child, when they were in University there, without both her, the bank, myself and the university getting calls checking on it!

And you actually think the following too?

This was done secretly without the approval of its board of directors.

Can you pass the blunt please!

Folks this is all fabricated bs, no one has access to transfer large sums like that, public trading companies are monitored for every transaction, accountants and the CFO make the information public for the shareholders.

So you can't magically ask the fairies to transfer money like that and why hasn't the my cousin Vinny lawyer representing Carlos stated any of these logics.. Is the judge standing on his hands or has a whiskey bottle under his desk drinking in court to kill time?

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@ Kenji & @ Yubaru:

Corporations transfer big money all the time.

They are not limited like private citizens are.

How do you think they transfer funds for business between USA or China or whereever?

Besides, some countries -like the Netherlands, & Canada- do not question WHERE large sums come from.

The banks don't ask.

An individual can bring in huge sums.

A corporation even more so. (The country wants the money)

Transferring Nissan funds from Japan to a legitimate subsidiary in the Netherlands would not raise eyebrows in Japan.

Moving it in the Netherlands from one subsidiary to a "sub" subsidiary or to a "shell" company would not trigger suspicion there.

Semperfi

Sorry your wrong.. Yes companies as in the entities do, via several channels the financial dept, lawyers and others...on both sides.

CEO's can not transfer any money into their atm account in Japan or some mythical account abroad... In a PRIVATE company that's different. In a PUBLIC company you can't as it's monitored.. You've been watching way to many Hollywood movies..

AND as these large companies are PUBLIC TRADING COMPANIES and they have HUNDREDS OF ACCOINTS, PLUS AUDITORS, EXTERNAL ACCOUNTANT'S, SHAREHOLDER MEETINGS that bs just smells of Saikawa talking to destroy the alliance

Drip, drip, drip, drip....

Another day, another leak / disclosure.

Ghosn may well be guilty of criminal acts. And acts that can lead to civil lawsuits.

Nevertheless, it is abundantly clear that this an aggressive effort by Japan Inc. to rid Nissan and Mitsubishi of foreign influence and ownership.

It is an aggressive hit job and everyone involved is focused on one goal: to get Renault out of the equation.

And Japan Inc. is using all of the tools at its disposal, including the use of the Japanese legal system to aggressively pursue their case, while Ghosn rots in detention.

I detest Carlos because of what I know of him and I would not be surprised if he is guilty of something.

BUT, this is an orchestrated attack job designed to get rid of the foreign interlopers. Pure and simple.

Mr. Ghosn.... keep fighting... get your day in court. Do not let this primitive Japanese detainment system win.

Kenji : CEO's can not transfer any money into their atm

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That is true.

But he was hardly using an atm account.

As CEO he had exclusive access to the Nissan CEO Reserve Fund .

For investments purposes he could move money from that account at his discretion - however there were certain provisos that had to be met , with regard to consent.

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And yes, TRUE , external auditors etc will be apprised.

In fact - the external auditing company for Nissan seriously questioned some of the transactions.

But the dimwits in the financial/ accounting office at Nissan Corp assured the external auditors all was well.

For investments purposes he could move money from that account at his discretion - however there were certain provisos that had to be met , with regard to consent.

You're wrong again , all would need to be approve for any 'investment' to the shareholders and executive committee both in Japan and in France

The banks don't ask.

I would stop right now if I were you. You are now making comments that are more than ludicrous. You REALLY are smoking something pretty strong if you actually think or believe this!

I know from personal experience in my daily job, that banks definitely DO check, in fact, here in Japan, large sums of money transferred by banks to banks or businesses overseas are most often held anywhere from a week or more.

Transferring Nissan funds from Japan to a legitimate subsidiary in the Netherlands would not raise eyebrows in Japan.

You obviously have very little knowledge of how it works. It would make people check, if not only to ensure that the funds were sent and received properly.

You seem to think that once money gets sent that it's forgotten about on the senders end. I assure you it's not, that's why there are accountants and such in large businesses (small ones too)

Any business that didnt check would be one bound for failure! (Oh wait...Nissan perhaps?)

There's also a process involved... Not snap your fingers and get guys send me sever mill..

Yubaru: Any business that didnt check would be one bound for failure! (Oh wait...Nissan perhaps?)

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You said it. :-)

@ Keni : all would need to be approve for any 'investment' to the shareholders and executive committee both in Japan and in France

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YOu are absolutely correct.

But he did not do that.

Again Hollywood movie talk..

And how do you expect the tax paperpushers to not take large taxes? Shareholders approve any transactions when some larger shareholders have more sway in executive board committee's?

Kenji Fujimori : There's also a process involved... Not snap your fingers and get guys send me sever mill.

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YOu are correct again.

Typically, ethically that is how things work in a professional business context.

However, it seems Ghosn had a way of snapping his fingers: (if you can't read French. the article below translates into English .Just click Translate)

https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-services/automobile/0600518935405-comment-carlos-ghosn-choyait-ses-proches-aux-frais-de-nissan-2236419.php?fbclid=IwAR05j_Gh4EysA2fQTjwmUD_aiAveqEg0skyH5Dj1_DFKBVQctBMGGjlrmo0#xtor=CS1-31

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Dont pretend to know business in Japan.. And all you're doing is saying hai hai to the propaganda here aimed at achieving the break off cause of the alliance..

It happened before with Suzuki and VW negative hysteria until the breakup occurred

@Semperfi

In fact - the external auditing company for Nissan seriously questioned some of the transactions.

But the dimwits in the financial/ accounting office at Nissan Corp assured the external auditors all was well.

It's obvious that you have I idea how transfers work or the checks that happen but you've said several times that Ghosn hid these transfers. Now you saying he hid them, EXCEPT from the external auditors, the finance people, and the accounting people.

With so many people in the know the transfers are hardly "hidden".

Again, this certainly appears to be a compliance issue. Illegal? Not so much.

Should read "have NO idea"! Sorry

Nissan views the payments Ghosn received from NMBV to be the result of misconduct and will consider measures to recover from Ghosn the full sum

Don't worry boys, you can just take it out of his deferred salary, you know, the one you (sorry, "he") didn't report.

Yubaru : Actually I think you may be showing a little naivety here. To a larger extent that's exactly how the money wheels turn regarding large corporations/institutions. Not sure if you are employed in or are familiar with the inner dealings of current high-finance industry but the reality is the checks on financial deals/transfers are by far more strictly upheld for the individual or small-to-middle sized companies when amounts seems a little high than the big Cs. For large financial transfers between two parties that regularly deal in figures of this area, depending on the relationships of those involved, the checks can most certainly be minimal.It is a very common practice "Don't worry about that paperwork Mr Miura"..

Having said that, there is absolutely zero possibility of him being able to carry this out without the board knowing. There would be numerous factors/items that would be apparent and if not picked up on then merely goes to show it was either collusive or common practice. Guilty or not this drawn out detainment is a farce.

Consider what you are saying here, a foreign executive who does not read nor write Japanese, in a JAPANESE corporation, has had the ability to move that much cash around the world and NO ONE in the company knew about it or helped him?

According to data given in Bloomberg, just his reported salary works out to $343,000 per week. If you have that kind of money to play with, you can easily hire someone to help you with the Japanese and pay people to keep their mouths shut.

Further British business friends tell me that Osamu Masuko was one of the few true believers in Ghosn within Nissan-Mitsubishi; very different from Saikawa. Having Osamu Masuko saying Ghosn was working a scam is much more significant than anything Saikawa has said.

Bullfighter

Regardless the salary or wealth.. You can't escape the tax office, shareholders, lawyers and many countries involved.. Your talk is coming from Hollywood movies, not reality.

Your talk is coming from Hollywood movies, not reality.

No, my information comes from British and American businessmen operating in Japan and dealing with major Japanese and foregin companies. They are not the least bit surprised by the charges directed at Ghosn. (Whether he is guilty is a separate question.) Everything that has been claimed is completely plausibe in their view.

Yep whatever you say..

There obviously misleading you with lies.

allegations yet again. In the West, allegations are meaningless unless proven in court

Exactly as sf2k stated, hence why this is all a setup by Saikawa and co

This just proves that Saikawa is incompetent and that Mitsubishi CEO. They were directors and knew nothing? Why would I as shareholder be comfortable with them controlling my money? Shareholder meeting!!!

I hope Ghosn will enjoy a right of reply before too long.

The JV Articles of Incorporation would have stipulated the approval process for large funds transfers. If it did not restrict a single director from acting alone, then I hardly see where Ghosen acting alone (if he indeed did so) would be considered an illegal act. Did he forge the signatures of the other directors? That would be illegal. But if the Articles of Incorporation did not restrict his actions, then he should be OK.

How can you forge signaures? to much imagination, it is cute though.. (hanko stamps would be stamped by multiple parties from multiple departments) before any consent and confirmation occurs for such large sums..

The most recognizable person in the company, thats constantly under a microscope by shareholders and large sums of money disappears from a 'fake signature' funny..

Thats like saying if Jeff Bezos bought a private jet with company money from a fake signature without shareholders noticing..

Wheres the logic and knowledge in your talks..

...but this still stinks and it has made me distrustful of the Japanese around me a bit.

This is looking more and more like a Japanese scam. A way to get some easy money.

The Japanese directors did not know ???. so, they are in the basket togather with Carlos ???. what ???, they are sleeping or they found a scape-goat ???. Stop shitting around, Bad Japanese are not so innocent. What is happening to banking and Japanese directors like these 2 saikawa & masuko, this proved that Japanese directors are not to be trusted. Poor advisers & totally useless.

Article photo looks more like the line of plaintiffs eagerly waiting to file complaints/charges against Ghosn. While nobody on here knows the actual truth of what happened, I'll gladly put up ¥500,000 that Ghosn gets convicted.

I wish good luck to investors of these companies.

You are investing in the companies with most incompetent management in the industry.