Mother, one-month-old child dead in apparent murder-suicide

RIP! Don't spend too much time in limbo!

Smithinjapan @

It is a fact that postpartum depression has been used as a legal defense in infanticide cases. In other words infanticide has been a defense for murder. The American Psychiatric Association first recognized postpartum depression back in 1944. Since then, American courts have recognized postpartum depression as a legitimate defense. On the other hand British law has long assumed that mothers who kill suffer from metal illness. British doctors treat postpartum depression and British courts rule with more leniency than American courts. The same holds true to the Canadian courts. The fact is many researchers have suggested that the United States should follow the British approach.

Readers, please stop bickering.

As I thought -- no opinion. It's being said he suffered from mental illness, and if so you therefore think it is not his fault and he is not guilty or a murderer.

What? Grasping at straws. I haven't given an opinion because I don't believe in jumping to conclusions, I'd rather wait to hear the whole story and make my judgement. The conclusion you came to above is your own, not mine.

"They don't get a free pass, they get put into a mental hospital."

They DO get a free pass -- they have culpability taken away from them.

So you feel that being put in a mental hospital is a free pass? That they want to be there? That it's a fun place? Why aren't you in one then? If they are such great places, shouldn't you be aspiring to get into the country club?

I've not said that mental illness is not horrible, it is. I've said it does not excuse killing others, especially when there is help available. You guys act like no one has ever been informed that PPD exists (or PND) and women are not informed of the dangers while or after giving birth. If someone sick, as you say, willingly goes off their meds knowing it could present a danger are they STILL not responsible for their actions in your opinion?

No one is saying it excuses killing others, it excuses them from legal guilt for killing others. They are still taken out of society until it is determined that they are not a danger to society. And your talk of 'it's not like no one has ever been informed' shows a complete lack of understanding. You are passing rational judgement on someone who is not thinking rationally - that's the whole point of mental illness.

As for someone who willingly goes off their meds, that's another discussion for another time, as it's not relevant to the current discussion.

I've said it does not excuse killing others,

The Infanticide Law has been on the UKs statute since 1922. These days, it's highly unlikely for a mother to be sentenced to prison for the death of an infanct child.

It may be your opinion that PPD does not cause infanticde but the law in many countries disagrees.

Strangerland: "I haven't really offered an opinion one way or the other, but if it's true that he did it because he was bummed about breaking up with his girlfriend, that's not the same as a mental illness."

As I thought -- no opinion. It's being said he suffered from mental illness, and if so you therefore think it is not his fault and he is not guilty or a murderer.

"They don't get a free pass, they get put into a mental hospital."

They DO get a free pass -- they have culpability taken away from them.

"As for pity, they most definitely deserve it, can you imagine how it must be to have your brain wired in a way that you are unable to tell right from wrong?"

I've not said that mental illness is not horrible, it is. I've said it does not excuse killing others, especially when there is help available. You guys act like no one has ever been informed that PPD exists (or PND) and women are not informed of the dangers while or after giving birth. If someone sick, as you say, willingly goes off their meds knowing it could present a danger are they STILL not responsible for their actions in your opinion?

Stangerland: "So do you feel that schizophrenics who murder are culpable for their actions?"

Absolutely.

Then you have just shown you have no understanding of how mental illness works whatsoever.

Or at the very least that they not be given a free pass and a pity party, as you guys suggest.

They don't get a free pass, they get put into a mental hospital. As for pity, they most definitely deserve it, can you imagine how it must be to have your brain wired in a way that you are unable to tell right from wrong? Can you imagine how they feel when they are drugged and come out of it to realize what they are done? Can you imagine knowing that you have to be drugged the rest of your life in order to not kill?

why aren't you guys offering the same defense and non-guilty verdicts to the co-pilot who downed the German plane the other day, taking 150 people with him?

I haven't really offered an opinion one way or the other, but if it's true that he did it because he was bummed about breaking up with his girlfriend, that's not the same as a mental illness.

If you don't understand how PND/PPD can lead to infanticide then you are dismissing it.

And there is a HUGE difference in what the co-pilot would appear to have done and what this lady did. And quite frankly I'm surprised that anyone with the ability to string a coherent sentence together could actually link the two.

Novenchama: "When one feels that they are under threat in some way, a judgment is made. I am sorry that you feel emotionally and intellectually compromised in some way."

Lame retort, and proof you cannot address the facts. Once again you dismiss the murder of an infant.

Heda_Madness: "You're dismissing PPD. Something that is a medical fact. And, on occasion, leads to infanticide. " I'm not dismissing it, though I'll admit on this thread and the other two or three threads this and last week you guys seem to be fighting each other on whether it's PPD or PND, and therefore show that the 'medical facts' are confused between yourselves. I said it does not make it excusable, and wished that these people would stop taking other with them if they need to kill themselves.

Stangerland: "So do you feel that schizophrenics who murder are culpable for their actions?"

Absolutely. Or at the very least that they not be given a free pass and a pity party, as you guys suggest. But let me ask you this -- why aren't you guys offering the same defense and non-guilty verdicts to the co-pilot who downed the German plane the other day, taking 150 people with him? Obviously he did not have PPD, but you guys are arguing that people with mental illness cannot be judged and found guilty of such crimes, so where are you guys on that thread? Not schizophrenic, Strangerland, but since you don't find him culpable and all... just asking.

you want to dismiss the FACT that she killed her baby -- that's just disgusting.

So do you feel that schizophrenics who murder are culpable for their actions?

You guys want to talk about suicide and depression and address the fact that there is not enough help out there, I'm with you 100%. But you want to dismiss the FACT that she killed her baby -- that's just disgusting. No wonder so many people do it! They have you guys to jump up and defend them no matter what.

You're dismissing PPD. Something that is a medical fact. And, on occasion, leads to infanticide. Something, which I've stated elsewhere isn't regarded as a crime in numerous countries.

That you so vehemently deny this as a feasible possibility does speak volumes. And I just wonder how you are qualified to make that statement. Or, do you just think that because she's Japanese that it can't be because of PPD?

None of us know her situation. But to say she didn't deserve a baby, without any idea of her background is not arrogant, it's downright disgusting. The baby DID deserve to live an that they didn't is an absolute tragedy. But so is the fact that the woman who gave it life was also the woman who took it away.

Smithinjapan @

Excuses, excuses - To be judgmental is a part of life and it is something that everyone does to some degree or another. There are instances where this is seen a good thing. However in this case it is inappropriate and bad. Judgment is nothing more than a survival mechanism and the ego mind labels things based on their perceived impact on ones survival. When one feels that they are under threat in some way, a judgment is made. I am sorry that you feel emotionally and intellectually compromised in some way.

Novenachama: "Infanticide occurs in the context of postpartum mental illness."

Excuses, excuses. Tell it to the dead infant and the husband, and tell him the baby's murder "is not her fault". How come I never see you on threads where a man kills a child defending 'personality problems' or 'mental disorders'? How about the guy who murdered the 11-year-old kid earlier this year. Were you as eager to defend him and say none of it is his fault? You just jump on here whenever it's a mother MURDERing her child and claim it's not her fault, and suggesting it's not a crime, even!

Again, I'm not arguing that mental problems are imbalances and that depression is not a disease, and that some people can't get the help they need and find suicide as a quick way out, selfish as it CAN be. But murder is another story. This woman was nothing but selfish and a horrible human being in murdering her child, plain and simple. She didn't deserve the child, and the poor child, who deserved to live, is dead because of someone you are defending. Tsk tsk. If they absolutely must kill themselves, then they truly cannot be helped. DON'T take others with you!!

The pity party for this woman is disgusting.

Smithinjapan @

Infanticide occurs in the context of postpartum mental illness. Many misconceptions and a stigma is attached to mental disorders simply because of a lack of awareness and the education of mental health. Mental illnesses are not caused by the person neither is it their fault and is not a personal weakness. Nothing could be further from the truth. The best research and knowledge indicates that all mental illnesses have three common factors. Biology, psychology, and social. This includes drug imbalances in the brain genetics including personality factors, developmental factors, environmental factors, social factors and work relationships etc. Be grateful you don't have any mental disorders or personality problems.

Postpartum depression.

Novenchama: "Simply put - to judge does not mean we are not to engage in any form of analysis or evaluation of others."

All you have to say is that you can't answer the question of judgement when it comes to this woman murdering her child because it would put into question the sympathy you give her and every other woman who murders their babies on this site. Unbelievable that you excuse this woman for murder.

Heda_Madness: "That you accuse her of murder and being selfish say something."

Okay, so hang on a second. You're saying she did NOT murder her child? THAT says something. It says, like Novenchama, you'd rather pretend the murder did not happened and the baby did not die at your hands because it makes your sympathy for the woman seem as irrational as it actually is.

You guys want to talk about suicide and depression and address the fact that there is not enough help out there, I'm with you 100%. But you want to dismiss the FACT that she killed her baby -- that's just disgusting. No wonder so many people do it! They have you guys to jump up and defend them no matter what.

Wow, Dr. Disillusioned. I hadn't realised we had an eminent expert in our midst.

Post Natal Depression comes from society, not child birth.

Well I would expect there to be a number of very embarrassed professionals all over the world who are going to be pretty embarassed come Monday morning. Imagine all those law books as well that will need to be ripped up as well.

Post Natal Depression comes from society, not child birth.

It's always the same! Whenever a mother kills herself and/or her kid the post-natal depression fans cone out in force. It's not post-natal depression at all! Yeah, maybe there is some depression involved, but the depression comes from the society, not child birth.

I think that someone who is depressed like this lady would appear to be should not be judged in the same manner that a healthy person should be.

There are countless examples and professional opinions of this. That you accuse her of murder and being selfish say something.

This is dreadfully sad and almost certainly could have been avoided if there was substantially better mental healthcare in Japan.

In numerous countries, infanticide as a result of PPD is not a crime.

And to answer your question you asked earlier. Yes, it is incredibly arrogant to pass judgement.

Unless of course you're an expert in the field?

Smithinjapan @

Simply put - to judge does not mean we are not to engage in any form of analysis or evaluation of others.

Novenchama: "There are so many things we know and, some we don't know about suicide."

I pretty clearly asked you about the MURDER, and even said, "Suicide, maybe", in my post. You have failed twice to address the fact that this woman killed her child along with herself, asking us not to judge her based on that. So, again, I ask you -- should we not judge her on her act of infanticide? On that note:

Heda_Madness: "Sadly not a surprise to see the usual suspects dive in with the 'selfish' comments"

So, what part of the murder would you call 'generous' or 'selfless', since you don't think taking an infant's life is a selfish act?

There's plenty of news like this in Japan. These young mothers must be properly supported, apparently they aren't helped enough.

Novenachama:I agree with your thoughts on suicide, but I think Smith is saying that it still doesn't justify homocide.

TessaMar. 27, 2015 - 07:54AM JST

Okay, so why was nothing done about it?

Tessa: One must want to be helped in order to be helped.

Smithinjapan @

There are so many things we know and, some we don't know about suicide. The act of taking one's life is truly a tragedy because this one single act leaves so many victims. You have the one who dies, then dozens of others like family and friends who are left behind, some to face years of deep pain and confusion. The living victim struggle, often desperately with difficult emotions in addition to the feelings of grief, anger, guilt, and rejection which the victim of such family feel. Obviously nobody knows the full circumstances surrounding every suicide. Things like our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we received, the traditions of our fathers, our health and so forth can affect why some people commit suicide. So that is the truth regarding suicide and what is the final destination of those who take their own lives. I think in his infinite wisdom the supreme being will make all things right in the end.

Yet another suicide case, I've seen too many in the last 3 years to be shocked at all.

If suicide ever cross you mind, first ask yourself. is it turly the right anwser to your problems? would killing yourself fix your issus? suicide is never the anwser to your problem.

Novenachama: "There are two things we can never know perfectly. Another person's mind and another person's heart. Because of these limitations we should not judge. We do not have sufficient information to make an informed judgment. It is arrogant to assume that we can look at suicide and pass judgment in what has happened. We do not have the capacity to do so."

Suicide, perhaps, but how about infanticide? Is it arrogant to pass judgement on the murder of a child (especially one's own)? You seem to completely avoid the fact that she took her child with her.

You know what, Novenachama? alcoholism is also a disease. Should we not pass judgement or charge a person for killing others at the wheel or otherwise when drunk because we 'can't know their minds'? Why are mothers who have PPD or PND or whatever terms they're creating these days forever be defending for murder when there is help out there?

It is arrogant to assume that we can look at suicide and pass judgment in what has happened. We do not have the capacity to do so.

Agree...but its never okay or justifiable to take another life with you, especially one as young as this

Dreadfully sad.

Sadly not a surprise to see the usual suspects dive in with the 'selfish' comments. Without any attempts to know what the situation was.

As many as 50 to 80 percent of all women experience a emotional letdown following childbirth called baby blues and there is infanticide which is a phenomenon when a women can become psychotic and kill their babies. There are two things we can never know perfectly. Another person's mind and another person's heart. Because of these limitations we should not judge. We do not have sufficient information to make an informed judgment. It is arrogant to assume that we can look at suicide and pass judgment in what has happened. We do not have the capacity to do so.

But, oh no, this is 'more common in other countries'. Yeah, right, I haven't heard this kind of child murder in the US or other countries for a long time.

Selfish mother, I hate this.... kill yourself not others.... no excuses, none, dada, nothing for what you did, you destroyed the future of a little one. Let the vote downs begin.

There is an English phone service called TELL.

"TELL is dedicated to providing effective support and counseling services to Japan's international community and its increasing mental health needs."

http://telljp.com/

I don't understand why people kill their own children when they feel depressed. Give the kid a chance to live!

Another mother murdering her child. It's the same with the men: please seek help FIRST. If then you feel you are so desperate you need to leave this life, PLEASE don't take others with you. What a selfish, horrible woman.

Another mother who needed support and caring eyes on her. So many mothers make choices and take paths that shouldn't even offer themselves as an option, because they should be helped to steer the rough roads of life. There is ALWAYS hope, and it should never come to this.

Father should have said, "In that case, I think you need to stay with us for awhile." No mention of a husband so I don't know that situation. RIP!

Were*

Post natal depression ? The mental health of a new mother and the responsibilities thereof was maybe part of the cause. Poor people. Sad situation.

What is it here with some Japanese mothers. Why do so many of them do this. We need answers so this sort of thing can be prevented. The majority of mothers in Japan are fantastic mothers. Why the small pool of women that do this and defy maternal instinct. Why?

If you're that stressed out don't take it out on your kids, there's always a way out. Potential suicide victims can mask their depression and that's why sometimes suicide comes as such a shock and surprise to people who knew the victim.

How do you know there wasn't?

Satos father told police that lately his daughter had been talking about wanting to commit suicide.

Okay, so why was nothing done about it?

There's the red flag. Too bad the father could not have prevented her. The poor baby girl didn't even hava a chance.