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Swedish translator of Japanese manga appeals child porn fine

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“Children who are subjected to abuse shouldn’t be put on a par with fantasy drawings,”

Not even if they are, in fact, FANTASY DRAWINGS!

You can draw pictures of murder, torture, amputations etc. I saw a South Park where some evil characters plucked the eye out of a little girl for fun. Those are of course, okay. But children in sexual poses or having sex? Hell no! How dare anyone even THINK of such a thing, let alone draw a picture of it!

The very thought should be punishable with extreme sentences! All unnacceptable thought should be eradicated!

3 ( +6 / -4 )

well that means that a lot of manga will be banned in Sweden.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

there is nothing wrong with expression of art! it's manga anyways, Swedish guy is innocent manga industry is innocent ^^v GO JAPAN!

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

“In Japan, the ideals are different, the culture is different,” Fredrik Stroemberg said, noting the Japanese fondness for “kawaii”, or cuteness. “Many figures in comics look smaller and younger, but they are not necessarily children,” he said.

Ah one countries cuteness is another countries kiddie porn. Funny how most sensible people can see what this Japanese crap really is and that is in some cases kiddie porn in disguise.... Just because its a cartoon doesnt make it any less so

-7 ( +8 / -14 )

People, IT'S A DRAWING!! Some people are seriously misguided. Arresting someone for having a drawn picture on their hard drive? Geeeeez

7 ( +13 / -7 )

Debucho

People, IT'S A DRAWING!! Some people are seriously misguided. Arresting someone for having a drawn picture on their hard drive? Geeeeez

Yeah dude arrested for having drawings. Afterall it is against the law in many countries, just because Japan see's this pathetic media as cute doesnt mean the rest of the world does. And in many nations it is illegal to possess even draw pornographic cartoons. Just for the record here is the law regarding this matter for Sweden:

It is illegal for people under the age of 18 to act or pose for pornography. Pornography depicting children, both drawn, filmed and photographed, is illegal, even if the material was legal in the originating country.

Pretty basic really he broke the law....

-7 ( +5 / -11 )

This is the same in many states in Australia too, if not all states. The legal wording in each state is somewhat different but in essence, I totally agree with Cletus: "one countries cuteness is another countries kiddie porn". I would certainly not support kiddie porn. However, any serious academic research done on manga in Australia is extremely limited. I never bring BL or yaoi back to Australia, for example. I am extremely careful advising students what they can and cannot research. I would disagree with Cletus though concerning the view that the manga in question are 'pornography' given the slipperiness of what that means. Since censorship is in place, then any exploration of how Japan manga artists depict sexuality is therefore stymied. On this topic, I would like to draw attention to the example of the card game Tentacle Bento (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1189988320/tentacle-bento-by-soda-pop-miniatures) developed in Seattle USA. Some observers construe that this game is merely representing rape.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Pretty basic really he broke the law....

An ASININE law!

I read such manga too, but i'm NOT a deviant!

Anti-CP laws can also destroy lives too, y'know. People often commit suicide rather than be thrown in jail!!

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Michael Craig

An ASININE law!

Well thats simple dont travel to countries that have laws you disagree with. Oh and that would be most western countries as they all take a dim view of kiddie porn weather its pictures or drawings....

I read such manga too, but i'm NOT a deviant!

In Japan no you are just another of those that love this cute stuff. In any civilised nation you are into kiddie porn according to their laws... As l said if you dont like the law dont go to the country.

Anti-CP laws can also destroy lives too, y'know. People often commit suicide rather than be thrown in jail!!

Well maybe they should have thought about that prior to breaking the law, to cry after the fact is too bad. You know the law deal with it. There are laws l dont like but they are laws and if you break them well you take your punishment.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Cartoons cannot count as porn. They are drawings, there are no real people involved!

0 ( +9 / -9 )

What about Shunga? Some of those women look extremely young.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@HoJo

Cartoons cannot count as porn. They are drawings, there are no real people involved!

Oh it most certainly can, see the definition of pornography, from merriam webster.

1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement

2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement

That being said, I do not think Swedish law handles this very well as the more or less "victim less" crime of "artistic" child pornographic illustrations is mixed up with the other types of child pornography which have very real and vulnerable victims. Another thing to note, is that the UN convention defines child pornography as involving underage (less than 18) persons. While Swedish law defines it as involving pre-pubertal persons (or persons under 18, if it is clearly stated that the person is under age)

(Source: Swedish vikipedia.)

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Well thats simple dont travel to countries that have laws you disagree with.

I guess this means its time for most of us to buy a yellow submarine and live in the middle of the ocean then Cletus.

Its a dumb law, and people are right to oppose it, just as they have opposed dumb laws since the first ones were made. There is no good purpose to banning what people draw with their own two hands. There is only evil purpose. There may be good intentions in some supporters, but the road to hell is paved with them.

And you see that no one has even attempted to tell us what this law accomplishes, because it accomplishes nothing good. It does however serve to extort money from people like this one. I guess that is good for some. But at the same time it makes a mockery of justice. And that is good for none.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

">Simon Lundstroem, described by Swedish media as a top manga expert, was found guilty by two lower courts of having 39 drawings portraying figures in sexual poses stocked on his hard drives.

Okay... but it doesn't state that it is child porn... just "figures in sexual poses" I'm wondering how he became a suspect in the first place... although, he is a hardcore manga nerd, so I guess that doesn't help.

This is not a crime. This is research.”

ha! sounds familiar...

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Cartoons and comics are for kids but manga is a legal form of porn for adults. There is not one manga that I have seen that didn't have some form of sexual image of young girls. Just sick seeing men in their 30-40's reading that shit on trains when small kids are near.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

'“In Japan, the ideals are different, the culture is different,” Fredrik Stroemberg said, noting the Japanese fondness for “kawaii”, or cuteness.'

There you go! More proof again of how perverse things can be here when it comes to 'kids' vs. 'kawaii'.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Drawings are drawings... If I draw a murdering act, am I a future murderer? Same for eveything...so lame. There is a distnction between what you think and what you do. Some laws were written by zealots to freedom.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Jonathan Prin

Drawings are drawings... If I draw a murdering act, am I a future murderer? Same for eveything...so lame. There is a distnction between what you think and what you do. Some laws were written by zealots to freedom.

And you could argue pictures are just pictures too. But people accept that they can be banned. Its not about the drawing or the picture its about the act that it depicts. And honestly l find it all a bit amusing the amount of men that are coming out defending what in the majority of western countries is considered to be child pornography. Well l guess you all live in the right country then!!!

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

JapanGal: "What about Shunga? Some of those women look extremely young."

Do you mean antique Shunga? Excellent question which tests everything from every angle. Perhaps that is why no-one has attempted to reply. :8)

2 ( +2 / -0 )

The 30 yr old women dress up in school girl outfits, so making the case that the drawings were children is tough. That said, I've seen manga on the trains that makes me blush.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

There are differences between pictures of a murder and pictures that show children in sexual situations. Both may be expressions of art, but pictures and representations of children in sexual situations is definitely banned because of the underground nature of the deviants who see children as sex objects. We need to take additional steps to protect children even if it seems to trample on free speech and artistic license.

I am not so deluded to think kawaii can hide the nature of these manga and figurines. The Japanese I know can tell the difference. It is just the fringe groups that want children as sex objects, see children as second class citizens who don't need to be protected, and delude themselves with the kawaii claim.

Oh, I am also not deluded enough to think AKB48 is just young singing and dancing kawaii girls. They are selling themselves as both sex objects and as kawaii girls. My six year old daughter sees them as kawaii girls, and I see something else. It certainly isn't their singing, dancing or music ability that lets them sell records and their image.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

I have this same argument with my mate at least once a month. We both used to draw comics - mine were SF with some nude scenes, his were 'naughty schoolgirl' type comics... I always felt uncomfortable with his material but he always used 'it's just art... not real people'.

That's fine, but it's the creation of an image in the reader's head... sexually active underage girls. It's the promotion of sexual images of underage girls so can technically be classed as kiddie porn. All of those 'fan comics' you see in Akihabara showing underage characters from kids' manga suddenly being shown nude and in sexual situations.

The otaku are the problem. If they didn't want it there wouldn't be a market for it.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Hold on a second, I think everyone so far has missed a critical element in this case. This guy was a manga expert, that's his job. I think it is unreasonable to prosecute him for doing legitimate research into his area of expertise. Child abuse experts will sometimes request permission from the police to view child pornography in the course of doing their research.

This court case undermines academic freedoms and undermines an expert's right to access material in his field. Just as someone is allowed to carry otherwise illegal items for work purposes (e.g. a farmer carrying a sickle isn't arrested under the swords and firearms control act, despite the fact that the blade exceeds the legal length), so someone who's speciality is manga shouldn't be arrested for possessing manga images.

What's next? Arresting nuclear physicists as terrorists for handling nuclear materials? Sweden might as well just kiss all academic credibility goodbye.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Not too sure about this case so as far as I know about Sweden and Swedes being very open about sex and sex education, this Japanese manga being translated into Swedish must be really offensive for even the Swedes to want to ban it in their country. So I say, good on the Swedish government!!!

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Being sexually open doesn't mean they would accept depictions of underage girls engaged in sexual activities.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The last line of the second paragraph of this law states:

In cases other [than previously described] the deed will not be considered a crime, if said deed in consideration of the circumstances can be seen as defend-able.

This leaves pretty much lee way to the court in the individual case. It is obvious that in the case described in the article they have judged that the action was not defend-able. The degree and punishment of the crime will be decided with regards to the age of the child, whether the perpetrator has made financial gain or not, etc. etc.

There is also an interesting exception which basically states that if the age difference between the "depicter" and the "depictee" is low, it shall not be considered a crime if other circumstances does not indicate otherwise (think distribution, I guess).

To the people who said that the only reason for this law is to extract money from poor manga translators. I think you should consider that 5000kr wont even begin to cover the costs of the police work, let alone the costs of the court.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

must be really offensive for even the Swedes to want to ban it in their country. So I say, good on the Swedish government!!!

There was never a vote on it among the populace.

It's the promotion of sexual images of underage girls so can technically be classed as kiddie porn.

Right. Are you also bothered by all the bloody random murder in manga, and the violent war scenes?

If I drew a manga of a 100 year old vampire who was bitten as a child and never grew or matured physically, and I drew her having sex, then what?

Face it. This is a crackdown on thought, and its backwards. Its the realm of the moron.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

my advice for male japanese who wanna travel: leave the lolita manga at home otherwise you might end up in jail. most stuff is illegal outside japan!!!

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Beer4me "There is not one manga that I have seen that didn't have some form of sexual image of young girls."

There's Doraemon, Chibi Maruko, and MeiTantei Conan.You must only be looking in "certain" places if you never saw them. Or any girl in a skirt is sexual to you. Either way, thanks for sharing!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

its not only sweden who got this law, all western countries have this law now thankx to the US!!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Next the Swedish and the US police should raid devianart.com and find enough material for hundreds of court cases or until both governments runs out of money to handle these cases, whichever happens first.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

So I ask who exactly was being hurt by these pictures? Isnt the law supposed to protect people from being hurt? Unless he was using real models (I doubt it) he has done nothing wrong.

The Scandinavian nations are the most baffling when it comes to what constitutes a crime. Look at Julian Assange.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Yes lets punish people for the mental affect this will have on the drawings. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK ABOUT THE DRAWINGS!!!!!! /sarcasm.

Seriously though whats up with some people. Theres a difference between child pornography and drawings of kawaii girls. Surely it be better for people who do have those urges to have drawings instead of actual children?

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@Jasta11

Right. Are you also bothered by all the bloody random murder in manga, and the violent war scenes?

Yes.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Child pornography is a crime and should be punished in any country without exceptions. There is absolutely no difference between photos or drawings, illustrations or what have you. Those who get their fix using these images don't care either. They would prefer the real thing, but illustrations are just fine for them.

Typical defence of child pornographers is that they didn't take the photos, the found them. They didn't hurt anybody. It was for personal use. It's a very good think that they rot in jails.

Child pornography manga are NOT inocent. They are still pornography even if some claim they are fantasy or whatever other excuse. Would you like somebody to imagine raping your daughter when he draws his "art"? If you have problem differentiating between art and pornography I suggest you visit the National Art Mudeum of Tokyo and then get the cheapest skin magazine from a kombini.

It's incredible that in 2012 people still claim that pornography could be art just because somebody says so to stay out of jail.

Countries around the world have different laws. Respect them and stay out of jail. Simple. In Japan using women and children as sex objects, degrading and torturing them is okay as long as it's manga and no genitals are shown. So stay in Japan and enjoy your manga.

As it's written in the article, the "manga expert" should not be jailed or punished if he is trully an expert and a researcher. Following the same logic policemen and forensic researchers should also be in jail for possesing pictures they confiscated.
-2 ( +2 / -4 )

It all boils down to that court's definition of "pornography". You can argue your point all day, but if that court's view is different than yours, you will lose the argument. Your only real option is to leave the jurisdiction of that court.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Or stop looking at or possessing that material anyway.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Complete waste of police time and taxpayers money. Not a fan of that kind of manga but I would much rather the time and expense go towards saving real, breathing children from abuse than arresting a manga expert with weird pictures on his computer.

How many children have had to spend an extra day in agony so the courts could focus their attention on this guy?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@Pidestroika,

I'd rather have someone imagine raping a cartoon drawing than out on the streets actually doing something nasty...

And now that I think about it, how does imagining doing something hurt anyone? I would bet a lot of people imagine telling off their bosses, so should they be fired?

4 ( +4 / -0 )

PidestroikaMay. 17, 2012 - 09:36PM JST Child pornography is a crime and should be punished in any country without exceptions. There is absolutely no difference between photos or drawings, illustrations or what have you. Those who get their fix using these images don't care either. They would prefer the real thing, but illustrations are just fine for them.

Umm... if you can't see the difference between someone photographing a child rape and someone drawing one rather than doing it then I would suggest that you have missed a rather critical distinction, namely that the person drawing it hasn't hurt anyone at all. It has been proven on numerous occassions that pornography reduces sexual crime rates, and if given the choice between even one child being hurt and someone jerking off in the privacy of their home to some manga then I don't think any sane person would choose to ban manga.

The simple fact is that politicians see this as an easy win and way to whip up public hysteria. Label the person as a pedophile and it turns into a witch hunt. Frankly this isn't the case here. This guy is an expert on manga, all manga, and so they went through his computer and found 39 drawings which the artist may have intended to depict underaged girls. Out of how many images? If he's an expert on manga presumably thousands.

Scientifically this doesn't make sense. Logically it makes no sense. Ethically it makes no sense. I can understand that if there was a law in place then the court had to uphold the conviction, since they don't set the laws they merely enforce them, but hopefully this will lead to a revision of the laws. Any country that prioritises prosecuting an imagined crime over actually taking any and all steps to reduce crimes against children clearly has its priorities dead wrong.

Columnist Dan Savage recently wrote a great column in response to a "good" pedophile, one who hadn't acted on their urges, and took a lot of flack for it. Why? Because the hysterical general public has demonised pedophilia to the point where it is impossible for pedophiles to seek treatment or help , and as such created a situation where crimes against children are MORE likely. Seriously people, how messed up is that? There are people out there with rape fantasies who are free to seek treatment (and they do) and this helps, but potential child rapists are excluded. And pedophilia (used in the broadest sense to include hebephilia) is not uncommon, tests conducted in the 1970's in the U.S. suggested that about 20% of the general population experienced arousal at pedophillic images, and the popularity of certain kinds of manga in Japan just reinforces this research. Frankly I'd rather see pedophiles (and other people with anti-social sexual urges) getting treatment than drive the issue further underground and see further sexual crimes.

If anyone has an ounce of common sense they'd agree with me if they wanted their children to live safer lives.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

If they kept the conviction but lowered the fine, it sounds as if they had an element of doubt, but wanted to use him as a warning to others.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

how can you tell how old a person in a drawing is?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

In Japan child porn is cute apparently...

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Its funny how they lower the fine but the guy still has a conviction on record for child porn. Good luck traveling abroad or getting jobs in some areas. And all for some cartoons.....

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Was it video or photography sharing? No it was Manga! Get rid of real pornographers. Go after the people who exploit REAL children. They have their priorities wrong.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

For most parents with children the very thought of someone preying on them feels one with revulsion and anger.

In this case I haven't seen the drawings so it's hard to comment.

In many courts of law photography is not permitted but drawings are. In other words, just because they are drawings does not necessarily mean the scene depicted is purely imagination.

They could be drawings of an actual happening, but more than likely they are the product of a fevered imagination, an attempt to create what the viewing public will pay for. There will surely be a minority of nuts out there who will try to recreate what they have seen in Manga and Anime and sadly they will probably end up being frustrated and disappointed, as real children will not give them the thrill they seek.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

We are what we think, in every aspect. We think before we act, so when they are thinking about it then the find some art and videos then they want to do it. That is is how it start with a thought.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Why is child porn banned in many countries? To protect/prevent children from being harmed in the making of such materials. If you start controlling what people fictionally depict, you might as well control their minds. What about fictional stories describing a child being raped? Should that be illegal? Is it illegal to think about such acts? Is it illegal to talk about such acts?

Now, I am in no way for sexually depicted children in manga (I have 2 children of my own), but if no children are being harmed, I don't see how you can argue that these may negatively influence people to commit sexual crimes against children, because the same would go for any fictionally depicted illegal activity including violence, drug abuse, etc. in manga, movies, books, and what have you.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

One of yesterday's articles:

Japanese man jailed in U.S. child porn bust

Are you the same group of people who want the man in yesterday's article crucified? And yet today you are saying that this man has done nothing wrong? Is there a double standard because yesterday's man's child porn was from a different country and today's originated in your country? Come on people you can't have it both ways, child porn whether as a photograph, video or drawing is all child porn and is used just the same by the sickos who enjoy that stuff. Or perhaps you want to give pedophiles a legal way out by allowing them "artistic" drawings which can very easily be made the way I talk about next.

With today's computer technology and software like "Photoshop" anyone can turn a photograph into a drawing, so how do you know that those "artistic" drawings are actually drawings?

I read above where some one mentioned that it is a cultural thing, perhaps there are some cultural things that should be kept with-in the boarders of the country it originates in, in this ever shrinking world.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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