Turkish pilots, official face 12 years jail for Ghosn flight

Ghosn was fleeing state terrorism in Japan-the wrongdoers here won’t face any trial or punishment though...

Nissan is Corrupt, and theJapanese Government is clearly in bed with them. Everything they have done to date is on par with what is the Norm within China - which the West so likes to criticise. Personally, I think we should exercise our own personal non-political democratic right and choose whether or not to buy Nissan products.

5), they should quickly stop cases which do not meet the evidential stage of the Full Code Test (see section 4) and which cannot be strengthened by further investigation, or where the public interest clearly does not require a prosecution (see section 4).

nope! do not give the prosecution any power.

they are out of control and nobody can stop them.

a demotion of all prosecutors and an investigation of how many victims of torture, forced confessions and false evidence must be done.

the obscurity of the Japanese MOJ must be wiped out forever.

Including his suggestion that the Taylors will be released not because of the mandates of the law, but because of popular opinion

I believe they will be released because of the light shone on Japan's Justice system through Ghosn.

@Aly Rustom Today 12:51 pm JST

Bokuda- Excellent points!

Including his suggestion that the Taylors will be released not because of the mandates of the law, but because of popular opinion (and seems to consider that a good thing)?

@bokuda Today 12:30 pm JST

the prosecutor must treat everyone equally and shouldn't have any ability to decide anything. is not honorable to avoid difficult cases. what they do is prevarication.

The part about treating everyone equally is agreeable. For the second part, I refer you to the UK's Prosecution Code:

https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/code-crown-prosecutors

3.4 Prosecutors should identify and, where possible, seek to rectify evidential weaknesses but, subject to the Threshold Test (see section 5), they should quickly stop cases which do not meet the evidential stage of the Full Code Test (see section 4) and which cannot be strengthened by further investigation, or where the public interest clearly does not require a prosecution (see section 4).

The ability to do either of the bolded points requires the ability to make decisions!

the case is very strong for the Taylors, even the UN its on Ghosn side. and the case is just a minor immigration offense.

The "minor" immigration offense bit has already been defeated. The US court agrees its Article 103 of the Penal Code.

Bokuda- Excellent points!

forgot to mention that the States are popularity driven

true justice is not as important as popular opinion in there.

The ability of a prosecutor to recognize his case is weak and drop it or cut a deal is generally considered an honorable, rather than dishonorable trait. A prosecutor is not an attack dog there to harass the suspect until the judge tells him to stop.

the prosecutor must treat everyone equally and shouldn't have any ability to decide anything. is not honorable to avoid difficult cases. what they do is prevarication.

the fact that you do like that had the UN to conclude that the Japanese justice is arbitrary, and should pay back Ghosn for the damages.

My impression of looking at the court documents is that the court is rolling its eyes at the Taylors' pathetic defenses but is procedurally obliged to play ball with them until their defences are exhausted.

the case is very strong for the Taylors, even the UN its on Ghosn side. and the case is just a minor immigration offense.

public opinion will be also on Ghosn side as soon they release the Movie, Documental and Drama series.

A prosecutor is not an attack dog there to harass the suspect until the judge tells him to stop.

You're half right. The Judge can't tell the prosecutor anything. The prosecutors hold all the power. that's what makes this a fundamentally bad system

To take an extreme example, if I arrest only murderers, and you arrest everybody including the pickpockets and jaywalkers, then my average arrest regime can be harsher than yours and still be justified.

It doesn’t matter. You’re missing the point. What’s important is what happens to these people once they get arrested. That’s all that matters. Not their crime. Just simply how you treat them in custody

The ability of a prosecutor to recognize his case is weak and drop it or cut a deal is generally considered an honorable, rather than dishonorable trait. A prosecutor is not an attack dog there to harass the suspect until the judge tells him to stop.

That’s because of the flawed system that is used in Japan which Relies on forced confessions

>

@Aly Rustom Jan. 22 07:06 pm JST

You can't look at the "people who got arrested" without looking at the "people who weren't arrested", at least when that data's available.

To take an extreme example, if I arrest only murderers, and you arrest everybody including the pickpockets and jaywalkers, then my average arrest regime can be harsher than yours and still be justified.

No. It means that when they feel like the prosecution is going to have a very weak case they just don’t bother. That too is evidence of a flawed system.

The ability of a prosecutor to recognize his case is weak and drop it or cut a deal is generally considered an honorable, rather than dishonorable trait. A prosecutor is not an attack dog there to harass the suspect until the judge tells him to stop.

It’s not about the statistic.

Look, I hadn't checked that whole video. But I have checked the slides they use (which is easier b/c you just use the slider bar to check what imagery they are putting up), and they are all stats.

@bokudaToday 12:00 am JST

And the Taylors will certainly be freed soon.

My impression of looking at the court documents is that the court is rolling its eyes at the Taylors' pathetic defenses but is procedurally obliged to play ball with them until their defences are exhausted.

Karma's a "B" and Nissan is paying big time with it's bottom line... and Ghosn is FREE which is all that matters Hugs and Kisses and Unicorns for everyone concerned : ) LOL

If I were him, I’d at the very least be bankrolling these poor people’s legal defense teams. He certainly has the money; otherwise he’d be simply throwing them to the wolves and regardless of his guilt or innocence in the Nissan case. And that’s objectively terrible.

He owes them at least that much.

Guilty or innocent, you have to admit he’s ruined a lot of lives in making his escape.

yes! that's inexcusable. he definitively did that.

But, my prediction is:

The Turkish staff will get a light punishment for immigration paperwork misendeavor.

And the Taylors will certainly be freed soon.

Just hope that they got paid enough for the damages.

Guilty or innocent, you have to admit he’s ruined a lot of lives in making his escape.

Ask the JFBA. They assembled the data and I don't see this accusation from them.

The reason you don’t see the accusation from them is because he didn’t watch the YouTube video I sent you. Watch the video. You’ll see the accusation from them

If you had been choosy about who you arrest, then the ones you do arrest are more likely to qualify for the later detention stages. That pumps that statistic up but doesn't necessarily mean a poor overall condition.

Are you saying they should arrest all those 732,563 people and only keep 90,359 after the 3 day arrest period? That would drop that statistic to just over 12

That’s the problem right there. Your method of logic is flawed. You only worry about The statistic. It’s not about the statistic. It’s about flawed justice system. I don’t care about 12% 80% whatever. I care about the process that people have to go through here in Japan after they are arrested.

Oh, so when a nice statistic comes out you say it doesn't count? Not being arrested doesn't mean they weren't "put through the system". The ones that weren't arrested were still suspects.

Of course! The whole thread here is dealing with the people who got arrested. It has nothing to do with the people that are not arrested. I don’t understand your logic.

It suggests that the Japanese placed their "human-rightedness" in the arrest department.

No. It means that when they feel like the prosecution is going to have a very weak case they just don’t bother. That too is evidence of a flawed system.

@Aly Rustom Today 06:25 pm JST

Because they were not arrested they’re not put through the system. We’re talking about the people who get put through the system and suffer as a result.

Oh, so when a nice statistic comes out you say it doesn't count? Not being arrested doesn't mean they weren't "put through the system". The ones that weren't arrested were still suspects. It suggests that the Japanese placed their "human-rightedness" in the arrest department.

If you had been choosy about who you arrest, then the ones you do arrest are more likely to qualify for the later detention stages. That pumps that statistic up but doesn't necessarily mean a poor overall condition.

Are you saying they should arrest all those 732,563 people and only keep 90,359 after the 3 day arrest period? That would drop that statistic to just over 12% :-)

And why were they let out? Because they confessed didn’t they?

Ask the JFBA. They assembled the data and I don't see this accusation from them.

83% of indictments are through confession.

i believe that 23~120days of solitary confinement would convince anyone to confess.

i admire Ghosn for not confessing after 130+ days, and Kelly after 50+ days.

they are my heroes.

Actually, they are the formal legal categories and terms, not made for PR.

And the end result? Everybody who gets arrested stays there for 23 days.

Further, even the JFBA's provided statistics refutes this. In 2019, 111,402 arrests were made, of which 90,359 were allowed their first 10-day detention (~81%), and only 58,210 were allowed the second ten days (52% of 111,402). So the odds are really about half and half among those arrested.

And why were they let out? Because they confessed didn’t they?

Of course. If you admit your guilt whether you’re guilty or not you can be let out anytime. Theoretically if the charges are not too bad. But why should someone have to confess to a crime they didn’t commit just so that they don’t have to be detained for 23 days or longer?

Plus, you have to consider all the people who weren't even arrested - the total number of people processed was 732,563, so only ~15% of the people they want to check out were ever arrested.

But those are not a part of this discussion. Because they were not arrested they’re not put through the system. We’re talking about the people who get put through the system and suffer as a result.

@Aly RustomToday 05:35 pm JST

Just semantics made to make Japan look good. Everyone knows if you get arrested they will keep you there for 23 days

Actually, they are the formal legal categories and terms, not made for PR.

Further, even the JFBA's provided statistics refutes this. In 2019, 111,402 arrests were made, of which 90,359 were allowed their first 10-day detention (~81%), and only 58,210 were allowed the second ten days (52% of 111,402). So the odds are really about half and half among those arrested.

Plus, you have to consider all the people who weren't even arrested - the total number of people processed was 732,563, so only ~15% of the people they want to check out were ever arrested.

This is categorically incorrect. The arrest 逮捕 period is three days. The pre-indictment detention 勾留 period follows that and is 20 days (10+10). Even the JFBA is awake enough to realize that - in their Grand Design of Criminal Justice Reforms, Arrest is section 2-2, Detained suspects is 2-3.

Just semantics made to make Japan look good. Everyone knows if you get arrested they will keep you there for 23 days

@Aly RustomToday 04:16 pm JST

the "arrest" period is 23 days in Japan not 3.

This is categorically incorrect. The arrest 逮捕 period is three days. The pre-indictment detention 勾留 period follows that and is 20 days (10+10). Even the JFBA is awake enough to realize that - in their Grand Design of Criminal Justice Reforms, Arrest is section 2-2, Detained suspects is 2-3.

The UN is still laughing at Geneva

https://youtu.be/hkoQjIBA_3U

While he does keep a Lebanese passport, was Lebanon really ever Ghosn's "home" right up until the moment he decided to escape from Japan? When he isn't in Japan, he was in France, and they even had to excuse him for having gone to Israel against Lebanese law.

Its his home as long as he has a passport

The UNHRC, unlike real criminal justice systems, does not bear the burden of keeping a society working.

You don't have to violate human rights to keep a society working

Oooo, piercing ... until you remember that the "arrest" period is 3 days in Japan. Any appeal against the "arrest" at best only affects 3 days of your life, and in the time it will actually take you to put together the appeal, the 3 days will be up!ust one:

the "arrest" period is 23 days in Japan not 3.

If you want to appeal to authority, I think I have the right to at least insist these authorities demonstrate basic critical thinking skills.

Personally, I'll take their critical thinking skills over the corrupt Japanese Justice Ministry. The idea that the backward Justice Ministry knows better than the UNHRC is laughable at best

Aly RustomToday 01:55 pm JST

How can he be a Migrant when he moved BACK to his home country?

While he does keep a Lebanese passport, was Lebanon really ever Ghosn's "home" right up until the moment he decided to escape from Japan? When he isn't in Japan, he was in France, and they even had to excuse him for having gone to Israel against Lebanese law.

When the UN human rights commission denounces that system, and your own lawyers do as well

The UNHRC, unlike real criminal justice systems, does not bear the burden of keeping a society working. And that's when their opinions are properly written and substantiated. As for JFBA, to take just one:

However, citizens suspected of committing a crime are not given an opportunity to rebut or refute allegations. Suspects can neither file an appeal against the arrest, nor can they review documents used to establish cause and necessity for arrest.

Oooo, piercing ... until you remember that the "arrest" period is 3 days in Japan. Any appeal against the "arrest" at best only affects 3 days of your life, and in the time it will actually take you to put together the appeal, the 3 days will be up!

If you want to appeal to authority, I think I have the right to at least insist these authorities demonstrate basic critical thinking skills.

Migrant:

a person who moves from one place to another, especially in order to find work or better living conditions.

From Google's Dictionary. Which part of this definition doesn't refer to Ghosn, who moves from Japan to Lebanon to find better living conditions (I assume to him meeting his wife is "better").

How can he be a Migrant when he moved BACK to his home country?

I think we have to be careful against over-diluting that word called "torture". Remember that the prohibition on torture is theoretically total.

When the UN human rights commission denounces that system, and your own lawyers do as well, you don't have much of a leg to stand on

There's no balancing test. If we define torture so broadly as to include detention and interrogation, there won't be many non-torturing countries left.

There are ways to detain and interrogate suspects without violating their human rights.

As for forced confessions, they happen at a certain rate in all jurisdictions - at the very least, they certainly do in the US.

Sure they do. But NOT at the scale of Japan's. Those are isolated cases- NOT Standard Operating Procedure as in Japan's case.

Migrant:

a person who moves from one place to another, especially in order to find work or better living conditions.

From Google's Dictionary. Which part of this definition doesn't refer to Ghosn, who moves from Japan to Lebanon to find better living conditions (I assume to him meeting his wife is "better").

Because what the police and prosecutors do amounts to torture and a violation of human rights. You don't have a problem with forced confessions?

I think we have to be careful against over-diluting that word called "torture". Remember that the prohibition on torture is theoretically total. There's no balancing test. If we define torture so broadly as to include detention and interrogation, there won't be many non-torturing countries left.

As for forced confessions, they happen at a certain rate in all jurisdictions - at the very least, they certainly do in the US:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/examining-why-false-confessions-occur-in-the-us-criminal-justice-system/2019/06/20/10128bb4-9207-11e9-aadb-74e6b2b46f6a_story.html

To which we can add those plea bargaining cases, at least some of which are cases that could have been argued for acquittal. One commentator:

Another analogy: It’s as if the US has a Rolls-Royce (jury trial) that it seldom takes out of the garage. Instead, it routinely drives around in a crummy Ford Pinto (plea bargains), all the while bragging about how wonderful its Rolls-Royce is.

Prof. David Johnson, as quoted in https://thechinacollection.org/comparing-us-chinese-acquittal-rates-apples-oranges/

Have you considered that there is a clear conflict of interest? JFBA means defense attorneys. Do you think a bunch of Defense Attorneys might have a not completely altruistic interest in rule-changes that benefit the defense and strangle the prosecution? Do you think they would be hurt by say an explosion in crime, or would that just mean more jobs for them?

No. There is no conflict of interest in wanting your country to be a country that respects human rights. Besides, not all of them are defense attorneys. Many former prosecutors have come forward as well.

Anyway, the problem to me is not so much that they are partisan, as the sheer lack of perspective in their argumentation. Frankly, it is on the level of argumentation I will expect from a layman, not a bunch of purported professionals. When you have the mantle of professional authority on your side, the obligation is all the greater to actually do research and while it is certainly acceptable to push your own position, the position should be properly substantiated.

They did substantiate everything. They gave specific examples of cases and directly quoted the law. They compared Japan's justice system to UN standards and found it FAR below the standard. And that was before the UN report came out.

Many countries have criticized your hostage justice. The UN has as well. Various former prosecutors have as well. So they are all wrong, but you and the Justice Ministry alone are correct? I don't think so

If he manages to pass customs, it will not so much be "illegally smuggling a migrant". He would already have been "smuggled." At the very least, I would not expect such argumentation to save me - this is not even sophistry because sophistry at least has superficial validity.

again we are disagreeing on the term migrant. He is not a migrant

Why is it awful?

Because what the police and prosecutors do amounts to torture and a violation of human rights. You don't have a problem with forced confessions?

Especially in light of the realities of other systems, which I did introduce you to.

When the UN calls out Germany on its human rights violations then come and talk to me.

@Aly RustomToday 01:16 pm JST

The case is about migration and airports being international ports of travel mean that until a person passes through customs that person is not a migrant. The charge is illegally smuggling a migrant"

If he manages to pass customs, it will not so much be "illegally smuggling a migrant". He would already have been "smuggled." At the very least, I would not expect such argumentation to save me - this is not even sophistry because sophistry at least has superficial validity.

This is about an awful Justice system that hurts Japanese citizens as much as foreigners.

Why is it awful? Especially in light of the realities of other systems, which I did introduce you to.

The UN has condemned it, AND your OWN President of Japan Federation of Bar Associations has denounced it.

Have you considered that there is a clear conflict of interest? JFBA means defense attorneys. Do you think a bunch of Defense Attorneys might have a not completely altruistic interest in rule-changes that benefit the defense and strangle the prosecution? Do you think they would be hurt by say an explosion in crime, or would that just mean more jobs for them?

Anyway, the problem to me is not so much that they are partisan, as the sheer lack of perspective in their argumentation. Frankly, it is on the level of argumentation I will expect from a layman, not a bunch of purported professionals. When you have the mantle of professional authority on your side, the obligation is all the greater to actually do research and while it is certainly acceptable to push your own position, the position should be properly substantiated.

I suspect you are being fooled by the duty-free shops that exist in the area between Customs and your plane, but they are not a complete abandonment of jurisdiction, but a deliberate use of jurisdiction to exempt some shops in a particular zone. You can test how good your theory is by committing theft in one of those duty-free shops. See how far your claims about Jurisdiction will take you.

The case is about migration and airports being international ports of travel mean that until a person passes through customs that person is not a migrant. The charge is illegally smuggling a migrant"

Therefore, mention of status of the international port is of importance because it nullifies the MIGRANT part. has nothing to do with duty free shops and all the other nonsense in your last post.

There is a line between reasoned criticism and just anti-[X] extremism. When someone goes to the effort to cite sources to show the realities of other countries, and all you can do is keep shifting the line and insisting Japan is bad because it must be, or resorting to generic, unspecific labels like "unjust" and "corrupt", you are sliding into the latter.

Again you want to make it about insulting Japan. This has NOTHING to do with Japan as a country. This is about an awful Justice system that hurts Japanese citizens as much as foreigners.

First of all, its not just me who is saying this. Other countries have denounced Japan's hostage system. The UN has condemned it, AND your OWN President of Japan Federation of Bar Associations has denounced it. I guess they are all anti japanese right?

There is a line between reasoned criticism and just anti-[X] extremism.

Pot calling kettle

If the charges against Ghosn are legitimate, then there is no problem with having them heard in a neutral Court where there are no claims of "injustice". This would clearly allow due process in a fair & reasonable manner.

Those opposed to this clearly doubt the legitimacy of the charges, evidence, or the alleged crime itself.

The reason such an impartial strategy has not been employed as what would be found is that both Nissan company culture, nearly every other executive, perhaps Ghosn, and now the "justice system" would ALL be found to have a part in any shortcomings and be in need of improvements & change. There would be a LOT of public & international embarrassment of Nissan, the justice system, & (unfortunately) Japan itself...but in pursuing Ghosn, Nissan & the justice system (& thus Japan), are embarrassing themselves further. They should just flush the case as it is not worth the pain, embarrassment, & woeful damage it is causing to Japan as a modern, fair, & democratic country. They really are doing FAR more damage that they realise as the whole world is watching this vindictive & farsical fiasco.

@Aly Rustom Today 12:24 pm JST

He wasn't passing through the country. He didn't enter. Airports are international ports of travel.

I suspect you are being fooled by the duty-free shops that exist in the area between Customs and your plane, but they are not a complete abandonment of jurisdiction, but a deliberate use of jurisdiction to exempt some shops in a particular zone. You can test how good your theory is by committing theft in one of those duty-free shops. See how far your claims about Jurisdiction will take you.

There we are. I was wondering when you were going to play the anti Japan card. This has nothing to do with Japan and its people as a whole. This has something to do with a justice system that is unjust and corrupt that you are trying to defend because of your biased nationalism.

There is a line between reasoned criticism and just anti-[X] extremism. When someone goes to the effort to cite sources to show the realities of other countries, and all you can do is keep shifting the line and insisting Japan is bad because it must be, or resorting to generic, unspecific labels like "unjust" and "corrupt", you are sliding into the latter.

That's like saying a thief is not a thief because he didn't steal from your house.

No its not. Its like saying I can't bring charges against a thief if he didn't steal from me. There is something called Jurisdiction

I must seriously disagree with your unsubstantiated attempt to narrow the definition of migrant, especially since he's being tried in Turkey which means it is just a translation off the Turkish. Do you want to say that countries cannot choose to charge people who smuggle people if they are "only passing through"?

He wasn't passing through the country. He didn't enter. Airports are international ports of travel.

The defendant has a right to put up a mitigating explanation for his acts, and that's what the defendant personally testified. Testimony to what you personally saw or heard it not hearsay.

It is hearsay unless he can prove it.

When it comes to anything related to Ghosn, the anti-Japanese attitude of many JapanToday commentators escalates into fanaticism. I wonder why.

There we are. I was wondering when you were going to play the anti Japan card. This has nothing to do with Japan and its people as a whole. This has something to do with a justice system that is unjust and corrupt that you are trying to defend because of your biased nationalism

Aly RustomToday 11:08 am JST

That means he was not a migrant to Turkey. IF they could get them in Lebanon then yes. BUT not Turkey. He was not a migrant to turkey

That's like saying a thief is not a thief because he didn't steal from your house. I must seriously disagree with your unsubstantiated attempt to narrow the definition of migrant, especially since he's being tried in Turkey which means it is just a translation off the Turkish. Do you want to say that countries cannot choose to charge people who smuggle people if they are "only passing through"?

Just because the prosecutors want to prosecute does not mean that the charges are valid or will stick. This is not Japan

When it comes to anything related to Ghosn, the anti-Japanese attitude of many JapanToday commentators escalates into fanaticism. I wonder why.

@Aly RustomToday 11:11 am JST

The defendant has a right to put up a mitigating explanation for his acts, and that's what the defendant personally testified. Testimony to what you personally saw or heard it not hearsay.

I’ve worked in commercial aviation for 35 years, including flying international charters. Nobody flies on a charter to a foreign country without a valid passport, and must also be presented when transiting to a foreign country. Charter passengers are well screened for the proper documentation at both the departure and arrival airports. Btw, even pets have to have their paperwork. Google Johnny Depp, dog, Australia.

The ground handler provides the crew with the passenger names and passport info. This info is also sent to the destination, so they know exactly who should be on the plane. And not uncommon for the flight attendant to hold the passports until arrival. The problem is when you add someone enroute who hasn’t had clearance to arrive or doesn’t match the identity of the paperwork. So Mr. Ghosn, if detected, would have been sent back to the airport of origin...Osaka.

The Global Express has a segregated passenger compartment with access to the baggage compartment, so it’s possible the first crew saw nothing. But once they arrived in Beirut, assuming he wasn’t added to the passenger list, did he just spring out of the box with his Lebanese passport in hand? So whether they added him enroute or found out later, the crew was obligated to report it. If no laws were broken, why the need to get in the box?

@Kuzuaki, I believe the only threat to Koseman was that he wouldn’t get paid if he didn’t pull it off.

*During the opening hearing, airline official Okan Kosemen claimed he was made aware that Ghosn was on the plane to Istanbul only after it landed. He admitted helping smuggle Ghosn onto the second, Beirut-bound plane, but claimed he was threatened and feared for his family’s safety.*

So he claims, but if that's true, doesn't that say something about Ghosn (or maybe the Taylors who smuggled him out)?

I don't entertain hearsay

Yes, he is a migrant.

No he's not. As I explained in my last post When you transfer planes in any airport you don't go through customs precisely because you are not a migrant. So the charge of "illegally smuggling a migrant" does not hold up.

It's just that his final destination was Lebanon, not Turkey.

That means he was not a migrant to Turkey. IF they could get them in Lebanon then yes. BUT not Turkey. He was not a migrant to turkey

Here are some excerpts from APNews:

Just because the prosecutors want to prosecute does not mean that the charges are valid or will stick. This is not Japan

@Aly Rustom Today 07:23 am JST

First of all, Carlos is not a migrant.

Yes, he is a migrant. It's just that his final destination was Lebanon, not Turkey. Here are some excerpts from APNews:

https://apnews.com/article/turkey-istanbul-middle-east-lebanon-airlines-d8b27af5a171c4218eff422a5a2e7658 dated Jan 20

In the third hearing in the trial of seven people over Carlos Ghosn’s dramatic escape in 2019, prosecutors also requested that the court acquits two other pilots of the charge of “illegally smuggling a migrant,” Anadolu Agency said. They recommended instead that the two — who flew him from Istanbul to Beirut — be tried on charges of failing to report a crime.

Delivering their final opinion on the case, the prosecutors also demanded that charges against two flight attendants be dropped.

They are being fair about this, it seems.

During the opening hearing, airline official Okan Kosemen claimed he was made aware that Ghosn was on the plane to Istanbul only after it landed. He admitted helping smuggle Ghosn onto the second, Beirut-bound plane, but claimed he was threatened and feared for his family’s safety.

So he claims, but if that's true, doesn't that say something about Ghosn (or maybe the Taylors who smuggled him out)?

What's insane is saying they didn't commit any crime in Turkey when they are being charged in Turkey under Turlish laws.

You don't know that much about Turkey and their authoritarian government then

Ghosn didn't step on Turkish soil.

and he cleared customs in Lebanon with a valid passport.

There's no crime.

where's the crime? i see no crime.

exactly

The pilots and the MNG Jet employee are accused of "illegally smuggling a migrant" and face up to eight years in jail. A hearing in July released them on bail but barred them from leaving Turkey.

First of all, Carlos is not a migrant. He simply transferred planes in an airport. When you transfer planes in any airport you don't go through customs precisely because you are not a migrant. So the charge of "illegally smuggling a migrant" does not hold up.

The two flight attendants are accused of failing to report a crime and face one-year sentences.

see above

What's insane is saying they didn't commit any crime in Turkey when they are being charged in Turkey under Turlish laws.

what crime did they commit in turkey?

Aly RustomJan. 21  08:09 am JST

Insane. They didn't commit any crime in Turkey. 

What's insane is saying they didn't commit any crime in Turkey when they are being charged in Turkey under Turlish laws.

Ghosn didn't step on Turkish soil.

and he cleared customs in Lebanon with a valid passport.

There's no crime.

where's the crime? i see no crime.

Everyone seems to be in agreement that ghosn was smuggled through turkey, why the debate?

Either they smuggled ghosn or they did not, that to me is the point to be disputed.

If they smuggled him thats a crime, however anyone feels about ghosn.

I whole heartedly support Mr.Ghosn

and those that aided him!

Very unfair.

sounds like something North Korea would do.

Indeed it speaks to the authoritarian bent of the Japanese “justice“ system, which seems to prefer to slam away innocents rather than let some guilty free in order to prevent injustice.

@Kazuaki

How loud can I complain if the prosecutors decide to split it into 3 and 2, or even 1-1-1-1-1 instead of a single block of 5? It's not like I killed 5 in a single act.

See? Stretching it thin. So if the prosecutors have knowledge and evidence of all the 5 crimes, what is the reason they can't charge it all at once? There's only one reason - to lengthen the detention and force a confession.

kazuaki:

Pukey2Today 02:31 pm JST

Yeah, just exactly how much were those Turkish officials paid by Japan?

Maybe they just don't want to be used, or maybe they just want to fight crime?

Sure. We're talking about Turkey here. Not some bastion of democracy.

They didn't commit any crime in Turkey...

Interesting point, assuming any crime was committed at all

If you don't step on Turkish soil, you haven't fail any immigration process. Don't you?

I fail to detect the crime here.

International & national laws recognise the right of any alleged crime committed on an aircraft registered with the country's appropriate authority to prosecute any person flying or using same whether local or foreign national. In this instance we have Turkish nationals, Turkish registered aircraft arriving at a Turkish airport and carrying a non-declared foreign national who failed to present himself to Turkish immigration upon landing.

Of course Turkey has full & proper jurisdiction to try these aircrew, the owners of the aircraft and any ground crew or others who assisted the alleged crime. Indeed it is reported that two American nationals who are said to have arranged the release of Ghosen are awaiting extradiction to Japan from USA

[...] § 163a(4) which regulates the interrogation by the police, where the duty to inform the suspect of the charges 126 is stated separately in § 163a(4) 1st sentence, and which makes reference only to §§ 136 and 136a; [...] but it also means that defence counsel has no right to be present at the police interview of his client or any other person.

A police interview means that they’re going into the police station voluntarily to make a statement. It does not mean that when they get arrested they do not have legal counsel present at all times. Also in Japan when someone is arrested they do not have the right of visitation of family members. There is a breach of human rights as well. And the lawyers that I quoted on the YouTube video I have said themselves that Japan is woefully below the standards of human rights.

If Germany was as bad as Japan, can you answer me why it hasn’t been taken to task and vilified like Japan has? Why hasn’t the United Nations spoken up and said anything?

@Aly Rustom Today 04:46 pm JST

with 8 hours of interrogation every day without legal counsel present at all?

I've answered the point about legal counsel during interrogation, but here are some quotes:

[...] § 163a(4) which regulates the interrogation by the police, where the duty to inform the suspect of the charges 126 is stated separately in § 163a(4) 1st sentence, and which makes reference only to §§ 136 and 136a; [...] but it also means that defence counsel has no right to be present at the police interview of his client or any other person.

As for duration or fatigue issues:

24 hours’ lack of sleep being lawful (BGH NStZ 1984, 15) and over 30 hours being unlawful (BGHSt 13, 60).

You see, that's the advantage of text - you can just copy and paste the stuff you need. With video the best you can do is either give a timestamp or transcribe, by hand, whatever was spoken :-)

Even the US with its flawed Justice system is better than what you have here. And this is a JAPANESE saying this.

When the President of Japan Federation of Bar Associations says this you should listen.

The flip side of this is that a detention under six months does not require such proof ...

4) Decision to prefer public charges (a.k.a. Indictment)

One charge is easily sufficient for up to six months, even before he's indicted.

with 8 hours of interrogation every day without legal counsel present at all? without being allowed access to visitors at all? I'm sorry, NO. Don't even try to tell us that the Japanese and German justice systems are on the same level. That's just ridiculous.

 If they want to deprive someone for four months (similar to Ghosn), all they have to do is (courtesy of Principles of German Criminal Procedure):

even so, the detention is not arbitrary, and the defendant has the right to challenge the ruling where in Japan NOTHING like that exists.

2) Bring Defendant to the judge no later than on the day following arrest (Vorfuhrung). True, judge gives Defendant a chance to have a defence and the judge will consider alternatives to "execution of a warrant" (detention). But if he fails that roll, and because we are talking Ghosn in particular, and he's high-risk, he's likely to fail the roll

but the judge does consider alternatives and allows the defendant to defend themselves that doesn't exist in Japan. In fact the prosecutors call the shots not the judge- as you already know

Further, it is easier to cite specific portions of a written paper over a video.

Not at all. You can cite specific portions of a video using the timeline.

So as a reference point for you, if you want to know where they say that only China N Korea and Japan have the no lawyer present during interrogations they talk about it at 58:52. So you just scroll along the timeline and click when you get to the proper time.

22:50 the female criminal defense attorney reiterates a really harrowing experience about one of her clients.

 It is also easy to precisely control the speed of consumption if it is text, and a lot clumsier at best with a video.

Not at all. That's what the pause button on the video is for by the way.

Further, it is easier to cite specific portions of a written paper over a video.

Not at all. You can cite specific portions of a video using the timeline. for example @ 3:33 seconds

Its actually much easier than looking for something through a large document of paper.

@justasking Today 02:24 pm JST

Suppose I commit one murder every year between 2016 and 2020 (5 years). I am now caught. How loud can I complain if the prosecutors decide to split it into 3 and 2, or even 1-1-1-1-1 instead of a single block of 5? It's not like I killed 5 in a single act.

As far as the prosecution is concerned, splitting things into say 3-2 has costs, because it's theoretically possible they'll get the conviction on the 2 and not the one on 3 due to small differences in the amount of evidence.

Pukey2Today 02:31 pm JST

Yeah, just exactly how much were those Turkish officials paid by Japan?

Maybe they just don't want to be used, or maybe they just want to fight crime?

@Aly Rustom Today 01:42 pm JST

why? These are defense lawyers and former prosecutors explaining IN DETAIL the FLAWS of this system you are trying to defend. Watch it before you make any judgements as I know you haven't

They can explain "in detail" the "flaws" of the system in their paper, which I have linked to. Believe it or not, even in this age of Youtube, there are still advantages to the written submission. Such as the fact that people may be frigging working, and it is a lot easier to peek at a paper than a Youtube video with sound. It is also easy to precisely control the speed of consumption if it is text, and a lot clumsier at best with a video. Further, it is easier to cite specific portions of a written paper over a video.

Besides, JFBA (Nichiberen) has been making the same arguments for over 20 years. So hopefully you can understand I'm a little jaded and want some assurance they'll actually say something interesting before slogging through an hour long video.

There are only 3 countries in Asia who do not allow defense counsel to be present during interrogations.

Interestingly, they have refrained from naming other countries in their paper. However, I've always said it and I'll say it again - Germany also does not guarantee the right to have lawyers for police interrogations. They do guarantee them for prosecutor and judge interrogations, but by then as the critics would have said "the damage is done."

Yeah, just exactly how much were those Turkish officials paid by Japan?

@Kazuaki

1) The fact he is arrested for a "different time period" means that he is punished for a SEPARATE act? Can the UN panel explain why they feel that five acts should get exactly the same time as one?

Dude, the fact that you have to justify the prosecutors actions by stretching some information just amplifies the ridiculousness of their system. Separate act? More like, let's charge this one first, then after the 23 days run out, let's charge the next one, and so on. Try justifying that.

I would have a million times more faith in Turkish legal system, than I would have in Japanese legal system.

Definitely. They pleaded not guilty and still out on bail? Good luck having that in Japan. They most probably would have been slapped with continuous barrage of divided charges just so they can keep them longer to "confess". That's Japanese culture, right.

So often the way that authorities punch down.  12 years?

Meanwhile the rich and powerful (i.e. Ghosn) remain free and looks like untouchable.

One VERY interesting thing they report-

There are only 3 countries in Asia who do not allow defense counsel to be present during interrogations. 3.

That says it all.

Give me a paper, like this one:

why? These are defense lawyers and former prosecutors explaining IN DETAIL the FLAWS of this system you are trying to defend. Watch it before you make any judgements as I know you haven't

Aly RustomToday  01:18 pm JST

Preventing Miscarriages of Justice: Tadashi Ara, President of Japan Federation of Bar Associations - YouTube

Give me a paper, like this one:

https://www.nichibenren.or.jp/library/pdf/document/opinion/2020/opinion_201117_en.pdf

They brought a person in from one country and then out via another flight.

Ghosn was not on the passenger list or any flight details.

He did not go through proper airport procedures.

The rich commonly travel between countries on private planes, largely without any procedures, often not taking passports along, for themselves or their staff. Regarding formalities, Ghosn and accompanying people traveled like hundreds of times before. Those procedures are for the other 98% of Joe Blows. Now, of course, the staff are targeted as it is easy to kick them in the face.

Preventing Miscarriages of Justice: Tadashi Ara, President of Japan Federation of Bar Associations - YouTube

Japanese Lawyers explaining in detail the system in Japan and all of its flaws.

OMG. Poor those guys.

The no extradition of the Taylors say it all.

Poor Turkish personnel who surely were not aware of anything.

A pilot's job is not to scan luggage by the way, that is the local custom's'job.

Such a plan can work only with as few persons involved. That is a basic.

From the Bloomberg article:

Lawyers for one of the men, Peter Taylor, asked U.S. Magistrate Donald Cabell to re-evaluate the case after the Japanese government revealed that one piece of the evidence used to implicate him in the plot may have been based on a false premise. But then Japan reversed itself, saying it stood by the evidence after all.

Bloomberg is almost being defamatory in how this is phrased. For a more precise rendition,

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.223139/gov.uscourts.mad.223139.71.0.pdf

After recently receiving conflicting information from another Grand Hyatt Tokyo employee, Japan decided to further investigate whether a room key was required to access the ninth floor on the day Ghosn escaped. Japan’s further investigation, which included reviewing additional documents and conducting additional interviews, corroborated the statement provided by the receptionist who checked Peter Taylor into the hotel and who explained that a room key was required. See Ex. A.

First, Grand Hyatt Tokyo provided to Japan an email dated November 1, 2019

[...]

Second, the Grand Hyatt Tokyo itself [...] In a letter dated December 30, 2020, the Hotel Manager advised the Tokyo District Public Prosecutors Office that “[...]We confirmed that a guestroom key card was needed to access the elevator to the 9th floor of Grand Hyatt Tokyo.” Id.

Third, Japan re-interviewed the Grand Hyatt Tokyo employee who stated that a room key was not required to access the ninth floor on December 29, 2019 [...] employee realized that he was mistaken about the timing of when a key card was needed to operate the elevator to access the ninth floor.

Based on the foregoing information, Japan has affirmed its conclusion that a room key was necessary to access the Grand Hyatt Tokyo’s ninth floor where Peter Taylor was staying. Id. Accordingly, the Taylors’ Motion is moot. However, this episode is instructive in one regard. Japan’s voluntary disclosure of a conflicting witness statement and its subsequent investigation of a minor point in its case stands in sharp contrast to the criticisms that the Taylors have leveled at the Japanese justice system.

Meanwhile, as far as the Taylors is concerned

Jan 19, 2021

Judge Indira Talwani: ELECTRONIC ORDER: Petitioners' Motion to Stay Habeas Proceeding and Remand to Extradition Magistrate to Address Motion for Reconsideration of Probable Cause Finding as to Peter Taylor 68 is DENIED in light of the magistrate judge's order denying Petitioners' motion for reconsideration. See Electronic Order, United States v. Peter Maxwell Taylor, No. 4:20-mj-01070-DLC (Jan. 15, 2021), ECF No. 60, reprinted as Gov' Notice, Exh. A [74-1] ("[A]ssuming the motion [for reconsideration] is properly before the court," the motion for reconsideration fails where "the impetus for the motion... no longer provides a possible basis for relief" and "the remainder of the evidence... still provides probable cause," such that the court "would anew find probable cause to support [Peter Taylor's] extradition even assuming he did not provide Ghosn with a key card"). (Kelly, Danielle) (Entered: 01/19/2021)

This case is just as crazy as can get! They're just trying to pin something on someone to blame for their embarrassment! Just stop, man! Its rather desperate at this point! Its like finding out that Ghosn once petted a dog, so now the Japanese police are looking for the dog to question it and put the dog in jail for being around him! Just give it up!

jalan5Today 10:06 am JST

"The repeated arrest of Mr. Ghosn appears to be an abuse of process intended to ensure that he remained in custody,” the panel said, pointing out that on at least two occasions he was arrested for the same alleged crime, only for a different time period. “This revolving pattern of detention was an extrajudicial abuse of process that can have no legal basis under international law.”

The UN panel is incompetent, because it failed to consider the following:

1) The fact he is arrested for a "different time period" means that he is punished for a SEPARATE act? Can the UN panel explain why they feel that five acts should get exactly the same time as one?

2) The fact that in other countries (I mean Germany and France, not China), a single act would have been enough to justify an over 4 month detention? In the US, if you fail to get bail, you could basically be remanded for as long as necessary until your court date rolls around.

I was not aware that Mrs.Ghosn has been indicted for anything, anywhere.

I don't think she has

The above comment, again sounds like hostage taking.

It is. It looks like this is the newest right wing ultranationalist to join JT. They constantly rotate them every couple of months. Its been a while, and I was wondering when the next one would pop up.

This is nothing more than revenge for the egg on Japan's face after their JOKE of a Justice system has been revealed to be closer to China's than it is the West's. Any smart nation would lay low and hope that everyone would forget about this case, but the people in Kasumigaseki are about as dumb as a Ganseki.

I hope that US authorities have considered the UN report in regards to Mr.Ghosn's ilegal detention im Japan before making a final decision regarding the Taylors.

I think they have, and it is probably why they haven't been extradited yet. It certainly is a very strong argument for their lawyers to make. The same goes for the Turkish defendants in this trial. The very fact that a UN body saw Ghosn's detention as a human rights violation could complicate the extradition of ANYONE involved in this case to Japan. That's good news.

Dang! The price to pay for helping someone running from an injustice system.

U.N. panel said:

"The repeated arrest of Mr. Ghosn appears to be an abuse of process intended to ensure that he remained in custody,” the panel said, pointing out that on at least two occasions he was arrested for the same alleged crime, only for a different time period. “This revolving pattern of detention was an extrajudicial abuse of process that can have no legal basis under international law.”

Soon the Taylors will be coming to Japan and after the Taylors give up Ghosn's wife, to save their own necks, Mrs Ghosn will soon be sitting in a Japanese jail. I wonder if Mr. Ghosn would come back to Japan to save her?

I was not aware that Mrs.Ghosn has been indicted for anything, anywhere. The above comment, again sounds like hostage taking.

I hope that US authorities have considered the UN report in regards to Mr.Ghosn's ilegal detention im Japan before making a final decision regarding the Taylors.

"Still Peter Taylor and his father, Michael Taylor, are continuing to pursue other avenues to block their extradition, arguing in court that they would face torture in Japan. For weeks,the case has been in legal limbo, as U.S. District Judge Indira Talwani examines that claim"

ref: bloomberg article

The fact that the flight attendants, who had no say in who would be on the plane and probably had no idea Ghosn was even there, are facing jail terms is the most farcical part of this. Attempting to punish even the most tangentially-connected people sounds like something North Korea would do.

Thank you Turkey!.

Soon the Taylors will be coming to Japan and after the Taylors give up Ghosn's wife, to save their own necks, Mrs Ghosn will soon be sitting in a Japanese jail. I wonder if Mr. Ghosn would come back to Japan to save her?

(https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-15/alleged-ghosn-accomplice-loses-bid-to-reopen-extradition-case):

"The two men accused of helping Nissan Co. executive Carlos Ghosn escape prosecution in Tokyo remain on track to be extradited to Japan by U.S. authorities, after a federal judge in Boston denied a request to reopen the case."

Did you not read this ?

*The pilots and the MNG Jet employee are accused of *"illegally smuggling a migrant"

I did read it, but its a complete farce. Ghosn is not a migrant as he did not remain in Turkey. That's why the charges are BS and this is all about the J Gov using its corrupt influence to entice an equally corrupt gov to do its revenge bidding.

Now they are being made escape goats to avoid the Turkey government being embarrassed over Ghosn escape via a Turkey airport.

We can agree on that.

Thank you Aly.

Welcome brother!

I would also like to beg the question - under any jurisdiction, is it morally wrong to rescue any hostage?

No it isn't. Hostage taking is an international crime and it is amazing that japan is still considered a western ally with its hostage system.

But then again, considering Saudi Arabia is a western ally, should we actually be surprised?

Alan, agree with you 100%

Thank you Aly. I would also like to beg the question - under any jurisdiction, is it morally wrong to rescue any hostage?

Aly RustomToday 08:09 am JST

Insane. They didn't commit any crime in Turkey.

Did you not read this ?

The pilots and the MNG Jet employee are accused of "illegally smuggling a migrant"

Weather Ghosn committed a crime or not.

They brought a person in from one country and then out via another flight.

Ghosn was not on the passenger list or any flight details.

He did not go through proper airport procedures.

Now they are being made escape goats to avoid the Turkey government being embarrassed over Ghosn escape via a Turkey airport.

Alan, agree with you 100%

They didn't commit any crime in Turkey...

Interesting point, assuming any crime was committed at all, as is now being decided in a Turkish court. I would have a million times more faith in Turkish legal system, than I would have in Japanese legal system. On a personal note, I think that they are all hero's.

Insane. They didn't commit any crime in Turkey. You know the corrupt J gov is "incentivizing" the equally corrupt Turkish officials.

this comedy will not be ending anytime soon