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U.S. military helping with Okinawa rape investigation

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why am I not surprised. when will they learn :( makes me ashamed that I ever served knowing how often this has happened on Okianwa......youd think theyd learn....but no it continues. I hope the Japanese government throws eveything at em!!!!!

-3 ( +8 / -11 )

The US military would have been a lot more help if they made sure that this never happened. Trying to act concerned after the fact is public relations damage control. Let us hear what they plan to do, if anything, so this doesn't happen again?

-10 ( +6 / -16 )

The best help they can give is to relocate the US military bases.

Anywhere on US soil is OK.

They've been here too long.

-9 ( +6 / -15 )

The US military would have been a lot more help if they made sure that this never happened.

Why is it that people expect the impossible?

Oh and even keeping the military and all SOFA status folks on base wouldnt stop sexual assaults either. The number of incidents on Okinawa by US Military and SOFA status people have dropped dramatically over the past 10 to 15 years compared to what it once was.

The military is doing an OUTSTANDING job considering the situation and circumstances of being on an island where PERFECTION is expected, even though the people expecting the perfection are unable to do so themselves as well.

No matter what the US Military folks do on Okinawa they are damned if they do or damned if they don't from a tiny portion of the community.

10 ( +15 / -5 )

I don't understand why open this "Americans are guilty" NewsPaper drama part II. The issue is fully within the Japanese law and under Japanese control. The rapists are detained. The US army condemned the crime and fully cooperates. The US ambassador fully cooperates. The Japanese police conducts an investigation. There is seriously nothing else to wish. American army as organization behaves honorably as does the American embassy. One can not escape crime anywhere, where humans are involved. It is ridiculous to stop cooperation between humans, because humans may commit crime. It is so obvious and clear that it doesn't need any further elaboration.

Now, if one already set one's mind that the US troops should leave and simply looks for additional reasons to fill the list, then this rape case is as good reason as any. But then, this doesn't have anything to do with the actual event.

7 ( +12 / -5 )

The US military would have been a lot more help if they made sure that this never happened.

And how would they have accomplished this utterly miraculous and never-before-accomplished-by-any-civilization feat?

Trying to act concerned after the fact is public relations damage control.

Could be, could be, OR, you know...maybe the general view within the military structure is that rape is abhorrent and rapists should be punished. Too much of a stretch? Maybe military people share human sensibilities? Yeah, never mind, that's crazy-talk.

Let us hear what they plan to do, if anything, so this doesn't happen again?

"Let us hear how the U.S. military plans to stop all rape from happening again."

Anything else you would like to ask for? Maybe their plans for stopping all countries from fighting amongst each other? How they will prevent all sex prior to marriage? How they will keep young people from doing stupid things? Like righteously demanding the impossible with an incredibly arrogant sniff at their expected inability to do so?

There's an interesting interpretation of logic for you: The inability to prevent rape indicates an utter disinterest in the matter.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

This is a terrible crime. If these service members are found guilty, I hope they get prosicuted to the full extent of the law. Than being said, I am just wondering why some people act like rape would never happen in japan if it were not for the U.S. military. No matter who does it, the crime is unforgivable.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Rape is a disgusting crime and leaves the women traumatised and their families in shock. These creeps need to be chucked into a deep dark hole and forgotten about.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

These sailors will get off with a fairly light sentence (compared to what they would get in the U.S.) These sailors more likely than not never had any idea that a terrible rape occurred 17 years ago. These sailors' image of Okinawa was probably that it's just an Asian island with hooker-like women walking around. Sad news all around. I hope she recovers physically and emotionally.
3 ( +7 / -4 )

These sailors' image of Okinawa was probably that it's just an Asian island with hooker-like women walking around.

Whether you realized when you wrote this or not you said a mouthful here.

I highly doubt that these young sailors are old enough to even know about what things in Asia "USED" to be like for US military folks on vacation, and with all the crap that's happened here in Japan, particularly in Okinawa, these guys had to have had some idea of the problems happening here so where the image comes from is a matter of education or lack thereof.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

BertieWooster If you have anything positive to say say it. As for the US military, they are only trying to help. It is not their fault these two scumbags did what is done. They are facing a lengthy trial and harsh consequences. There is no way the military is going to move due to this unfortunate event. There is too much investments on the Japanese side also. I personally think they have overstayed but that is only argument. The fact is that Japan benefits from having them there. We as servicemen here in Japan are trying our best to do our jobs here and then go back home. We are here on orders not wishes. Therefore in the meantime exercise some respect for the rest of us who are here to protect and serve. This goes out to everyone.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Therefore in the meantime exercise some respect for the rest of us who are here to protect and serve. This goes out to everyone.

I would remind you to keep in mind your statement about "protect and serve". There are plenty of Japanese, not just Okinawan's that don't want your service nor your protection either. You are here on orders of a foreign government, from the Japanese point of view, and while you do your job and attempt to keep your oath, it's not to the Japanese.

Hence many times an attitude that comes across of one of arrogance, or "we are here to protect you" show more appreciation for our service.

If the folks in the military took the stance of "protect and serve" and extended that belief and faith in the oath that all US service members take to their Japanese hosts, maybe, just maybe, the attitudes of both sides might change.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

Yubaru / Agreed and well written. I as for the members of my company below and above me, we are here doing a job and educating ourselves in the process. Anywhere we go in the world, we are greeted with hostility and sometimes fear. Nevertheless, we are always there on orders to defend democracy and defend freedom. For the time being we are still remaining here. We will continue to defend Japan and abide by our agreement. If the the military police is going to help in the investigation of this horrible crime that has been committed, let them. Its a service to this country. Never forget that after doing time here in Japan, these two ex-servicemen still face a court marshal and possible time in the brig, no doubt. Seven plus years if convicted and plus years for there crime. Not to mention, all of their pensions taken away. Barred form any installation for life and a difficult life ahead. I am far more concerned for the girl in question. What about her? What is she feeling now? Is there anything that might bring peace to her right now? Lets focus on her for a bit and stop focusing on our military.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

I have no doubt that the military leaders are doing a lot in the way of training and directing their subordinates to be on their best behavior, especially when in other countries. The fact is people do bad things and exercise bad judgement, and that sometimes includes criminal actions. These two young guys very seriously stuffed up and are gonna pay the price dearly.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Yubaru,

The number of incidents on Okinawa by US Military and SOFA status people have dropped dramatically over the past 10 to 15 years compared to what it once was.

That statement only serves to further condemn the US military and SOFA status people.

It should be ZERO and the only way to really assure that would be to close the bases.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

Skyler doesn't seem like a violent guy... http://www.facebook.com/#!/skyler.dozier

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Baka... Rigghhhtttt.... I'd feel so safe if he lived next door.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

That statement only serves to further condemn the US military and SOFA status people.

It should be ZERO and the only way to really assure that would be to close the bases.

I guess you must live in a fantasy world where no one anywhere does anything wrong right? What I wrote proves that the military is working very hard to limit incidents that happen. However in reality no matter where the troops are stationed, be it here in Japan, Europe, in the US as well, they just like the general public of aforementioned countries and locations commit crimes. Sad? Yes,

But that's the reality, however let's not forget that they are much better behaved than their hosts in all those aforementioned locations as well. Generally speaking military folks commit less crime(s) by far than their civilian counterparts.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

These sailors' image of Okinawa was probably that it's just an Asian island with hooker-like women walking around.

I tried to find a way of saying that, but I agree with you. Some guys see Asian women and automatically assume they are tarts and slappers. I've heard it myself from American tourists, saying they weren't going home until they'd shagged a Japanese woman.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Yubaru, of course we expect higher standards from members of the armed forces over members of the community. Having said that hope the military does not punish the entire American community for the actions of 2 Naval Reservists, one from Oklahoma and the other from Texas. Have read in the local papers that police found items belonging to the victim in possession of the accused.

Bertie, in a perfect world this never would of happened. Of course in a perfect world there would be no need for military or police. Think the Americans do a good job disciplining the troops. What more can they do? Restrict them to base and then to quarters and work make serving time on Okinawa like serving time in prison?

Tom since the crime happened while the two were off duty and off base it is up to the Japanese legal system to deal with this pair. When the people of Okinawa see justice being done they will nod and think of other things. The vast majority of Okinawa people do not understand military justice. They do understand Japanese justice and can see it being applied. So until this process is done it is yet to be determined if the pair are guilty. kapish?

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

And how would they have accomplished this utterly miraculous and never-before-accomplished-by-any-civilization feat?

How about educating all members about the situation on Okinawa, that all the lurid stories their fellow sailors have told them are not true, and remind them that they not only represent themselves, but the US military, the people of the US, and a treaty of friendship signed with the Japanese people. That they are guests in this nation and, as such, they should conduct themselves in the highest manner of respect to their uniform and their nation.

On the other hand, the military can simply restrict all personnel activity until service members earn the ability to travel out into the community. Of course, this would probably eliminate the situation that occurred here as these guys were on a short term stop-over. All ideas should be on the table.

But your question is merely a plea for shouganai. The real question is what steps does the military take to eliminate this problem and how will they respond to this after this incident? If they do take additional steps, it is an admittance that they failed beforehand. If they do not take additional steps, they acknowledge that they really don't care.

If you are a member of the military, it seems that you would be more interested in stopping this than in defending it as just a common occurrence in all societies. Isn't the US military supposed to set the highest standards for conduct and not be merely common?

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

Anything else you would like to ask for? Maybe their plans for stopping all countries from fighting amongst each other?

Actually, the US is involved in most fighting these days. Perhaps a more critical eye on the actions of the US in this regard would eliminate a sizable part of the fighting among nations. The notion that it takes near continuous war to establish peace doesn't seem to do much except cause more death and destruction. Are we really gaining anything?

How they will prevent all sex prior to marriage?

That's just silly. However, illegal and abusive sex by taxpayer-funded members of the military would not seem to be out of the question. These people are taught to follow orders, aren't they? Have you tried ordering them not to do it?

How they will keep young people from doing stupid things?

These are supposed to be highly trained people. Should the military, for instance, give weapons to people who are apt to act stupidly? I don't hear any reports of American troops shooting Japanese girls late at night. Perhaps the same measures used to accomplish that should be used to prevent sex crimes.

But, whether you like it or not, the onus is on the US military to provide solutions. You created the environment. You demand to be here in such large numbers. By that, you assume responsibility.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

I tried to find a way of saying that, but I agree with you. Some guys see Asian women and automatically assume they are tarts and slappers. I've heard it myself from American tourists, saying they weren't going home until they'd shagged a Japanese woman.

Indeed. The military should definitely target this aspect of service life expectations while in Japan. And not just that wink-wink-admonition to "be careful out there, boys."

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

How about educating all members about the situation on Okinawa, that all the lurid stories their fellow sailors have told them are not true, and remind them that they not only represent themselves, but the US military, the people of the US, and a treaty of friendship signed with the Japanese people. That they are guests in this nation and, as such, they should conduct themselves in the highest manner of respect to their uniform and their nation.

Do you really believe you are the first person who thought of this? It hasn't occurred to you that this has been implemented for decades? And that people who pre-meditate rape generally aren't swayed much by it? You are really not aware of how arrogant that sounds?

On the other hand, the military can simply restrict all personnel activity until service members earn the ability to travel out into the community. Of course, this would probably eliminate the situation that occurred here as these guys were on a short term stop-over. All ideas should be on the table.

Pointless ideas have no right to be on the table. The only ideas that have a right to be heard are ideas that have been reasonably and rationally thought out and proposed. Knee-jerk reactionary ideas with little thought or follow through get thrown out right after the brainstorming stage.

But your question is merely a plea for shouganai.

It doesn't have a thing to do with shoganai. My question is rhetorical, and its purpose is to emphasize the ridiculous amount of arrogance invested into an utterly ludicrous statement.

The real question is what steps does the military take to eliminate this problem and how will they respond to this after this incident?

I will tell you exactly how they will respond. For a month, sexual harassment training will be ramped up. After that, it will go back to normal.

If they do take additional steps, it is an admittance that they failed beforehand.

Makes as much sense as claiming that a police officer catching a criminal means that the justice system failed in preventing crimes.

If they do not take additional steps, they acknowledge that they really don't care.

Or that there are no other steps to take. Or that there is no better system available. Or that they are subject to the same limits any other organization forced to work under the laws of human behavior.

But hey, instead, let's just go ahead and assume that, since they were not able to stop to people who go to military training 2 days a month, the U.S. military just doesn't really care about members raping women. Really, that just makes the most sense.

If you are a member of the military, it seems that you would be more interested in stopping this than in defending it as just a common occurrence in all societies.

If you have the rationality most high-schoolers are capable of showing, you would know that stating that a person who ridicules you for claiming the military doesn't give a damn that its members are raping people, is in fact defending rape, does not actually fool anyone into thinking that I am defending rape.

Then again, in your world, the inability to prevent rape indicates total disregard for rape, so to you it might well make sense.

Isn't the US military supposed to set the highest standards for conduct and not be merely common?

Yep. Which means that when people break the rules, they get punished.

See, the way the real world works is no matter how high your standard is, there will always be a bell curve, and there will always be "That guy", the one that you have to punish for representing the worst of the best.

But hey, if you can figure out a way to flat-line human behavior, you go right ahead and propose it. The military is always open to new ideas.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

cabadaje Oct. 18, 2012 - 11:49PM JST

I will tell you exactly how they will respond. For a month, sexual harassment training will be ramped up. After that, it will go back to normal.

Hahaha. So, they will ramp up the training to show the community that they are concerned and until the whole thing blows over....until it happens again. Why not keep that training "ramped up?" Too much trouble?

Or that there are no other steps to take. Or that there is no better system available.

So, they accept that rape is just one of those things that can't be helped. Sounds like souganai to me.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Actually, the US is involved in most fighting these days. Perhaps a more critical eye on the actions of the US in this regard would eliminate a sizable part of the fighting among nations. The notion that it takes near continuous war to establish peace doesn't seem to do much except cause more death and destruction. Are we really gaining anything?

Wow, never looked at it that way before. You know, the fact that there was never any fighting or wars prior to the US military coming into existence should really have clued me in. It really is kind of like rape, which similarly never existed until the US military invented it and put it into the training manuals.

If only we would tell the rest of the world about our super-magical peace plan, everyone would be happy. But when all is said and done, the US military just doesn't care about peace.

That's just silly. However, illegal and abusive sex by taxpayer-funded members of the military would not seem to be out of the question. These people are taught to follow orders, aren't they? Have you tried ordering them not to do it?

Yep. Every day, I used to line up both my division and specifically tell them not to rape anyone that entire day (I wasn't foolish enough to ask for more than a 24-hour commitment at any one time). I even told them that if they did, I would dock them their Sex Pay allowance, because the military will not pay them for illegal and abusive sex, just for the regular kind.

You probably do not realize how incredibly insulting you are. Military members are not robots. They are not automatons. They are not brainwashed fanatics. Those last two sentences there? I guarantee you, had you uttered them anywhere near the Chief's mess, you would have been bodily picked up and unceremoniously thrown out the door. You are the silly bureaucrat in the suit you see in movies who makes ridiculous demands to the field commander in the war room.

These are supposed to be highly trained people.

They are.

Should the military, for instance, give weapons to people who are apt to act stupidly?

You seem to be under the impression that stupidity is a constant.

I don't hear any reports of American troops shooting Japanese girls late at night. Perhaps the same measures used to accomplish that should be used to prevent sex crimes.

We tried, however there were complaints at the amount of time it took to sign out your Johnson at the armory, check it for damage, properly install it, and then reverse the process whenever you wanted to go out.

However, lining them up every day and specifically telling them to not shoot any Japanese girls late at night seems to be going swimmingly. I suppose that soldiers, being the highly trained idiots they are, really do need to be ordered to not rape and not shoot girls, 'cause otherwise...jeez, they'd be doing it all night long.

But, whether you like it or not, the onus is on the US military to provide solutions.

They do. They provide training, counseling, rules and regulations, and encourage an environment where senior personnel watches over junior personnel. Unfortunately, it only works for most of the 3 million people in the military.

You created the environment.

Mea culpa. I fully acknowledge that the U.S. military invented rape.

You demand to be here in such large numbers.

True. Rape never happens among small groups, or with couples who already know each other.

By that, you assume responsibility.

Such as prosecuting any soldiers indicted for rape, or offering full assistance to a foreign government with concurrent jurisdiction for doing the same. Yes, yes we do assume that responsibility.

Oh, you meant that, since the U.S. military invented rape, we should figure out a way to eradicate it. My bad.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

cabadaje Oct. 18, 2012 - 11:49PM JST

Pointless ideas have no right to be on the table.

So, you are the person responsible for making decisions on which ideas are useful and which ones are pointless? What is your position in the chain of command on Okinawa? We will direct further correspondence to your office.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

It really is kind of like rape, which similarly never existed until the US military invented it and put it into the training manuals.

Nice to know that the military defends itself - you are being paid to come here and defend it, aren't you? - by belittling the seriousness of the problem with sarcasm. If you can do nothing more than this, we are done. And the US wonders why Okinawans are getting more fed up every day with the presence of the US military.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Hahaha.

Yes, it is an amusing topic, isn't it?

So, they will ramp up the training to show the community that they are concerned

No, it's more of a mild punishment for everyone else, kind of a way to tell everyone "Hey, if you don't keep your buddies from doing this sort of stupid blank, you are going to have to attend this training every month". It's a bit like making traffic violators attend a driving safety course; You aren't really there to learn anything new (Wait, wait...in Japan, rape isn't like saying hello?, for those who are into internet memes). You are there to be reminded that all these rules still apply to you.

and until the whole thing blows over....until it happens again.

Yep.

Why not keep that training "ramped up?" Too much trouble?

Absolutely. Not to mention, familiarity breeds contempt.

So, they accept that rape is just one of those things that can't be helped. Sounds like souganai to me.

Sounds like someone refuses to believe that there are any possibilities other than his own to me.

So, you are the person responsible for making decisions on which ideas are useful and which ones are pointless? What is your position in the chain of command on Okinawa?

It is the duty and responsibility of all rational and reasonable people to fight irrational and unreasonable reactions based on knee jerk reactions to emotional scenarios.

Nice to know that the military defends itself - you are being paid to come here and defend it, aren't you?

Wooow...

And for a second helping of irony:

If you can do nothing more than this, we are done.

Yeah, when you get to the point that you refuse to acknowledge any position other than your own (not disagree, but just completely deny the possibility), and the only reason you can conceive of that someone could disagree with you is that they are being paid for it, yeah, there's really no more discussion to be had at that point.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Absolutely. Not to mention, familiarity breeds contempt.

Indeed...ask any Okinawan about their familiarity with the US military.

Yeah, when you get to the point that you refuse to acknowledge any position other than your own (not disagree, but just completely deny the possibility), and the only reason you can conceive of that someone could disagree with you is that they are being paid for it, yeah, there's really no more discussion to be had at that point.

And you have acknowledged another opinion other than your own in what way?

Rather than arguing with the wind on this board, shouldn't you and other service members who reside on the upper end of the bell curve be out in the night protecting your personal honor and that of the service in general by monitoring the activities of those on the lower end of the curve. It might be a better use of your time. Or is that also too much trouble?

And, sorry...this time I am done. See you around the chief's mess. See if you recognize me.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Knee-jerk reactionary ideas with little thought or follow through get thrown out right after the brainstorming stage.

Except when you are the commanding general and any idea that you have is automatically deemed to be brilliant.

It happens, and the troops and their families and literally thousands of others suffer the consequences. There was a lockdown here on Okinawa a few years back because of an incident where a military member was falsely accused of rape, after a string of rather embarrassing incidents.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yubaru Oct. 19, 2012 - 06:32AM JST It happens, and the troops and their families and literally thousands of others suffer the consequences. There was a lockdown here on Okinawa a few years back because of an incident where a military member was falsely accused of rape, after a string of rather embarrassing incidents.

When you have thousands and thousands of troops in a small space, this a a guarantee that you will have few problems. If the troops are forced to lockdown, why don't the civilian population forced to lockdown with s same rules everytime Japanese citizens commit rape in Okinawa.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

When you have thousands and thousands of troops in a small space, this a a guarantee that you will have few problems.

Rape is just a "problem?"

1 ( +3 / -2 )

taro67....If you think the crimes by the U.S. servicemen is so high, why don't your goverment declare independence like what Philippines did two decades ago and defend your own country. If the U.S. left Japan, the defense cost will rise 10 percent a year for many decades. if the U.S. military left Japan, this would save billions and billions to the taxpayers. I would be glad if Japan handle their own defense.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

sfjp330 Oct. 19, 2012 - 08:19AM JST

I didn't mean to make you mad. but it looks like your choice is for okinawa to accept a certain number of unfortunate rapes or japan can just defend itself. that seems kinda harsh. are you certain there isn't another choice for okinawans since they don't seem to be able to get rid of the americans?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

taro67 Oct. 19, 2012 - 08:26AM JST are you certain there isn't another choice for okinawans since they don't seem to be able to get rid of the americans?

Sure, there is many options, but most of the actions will restrict their freedom. Such as closing the civilian bars early, restict the number of hostess bars, having a curfew, heavier fines for any violations, reassignment away from Okinawa for certain violations, rank and pay loss, etc. U.S. military and the Okinawa goverment should set up a task force to make sure that civilian complaints are heard and actions taken. Majority of these servicemen are law abiding citizens that are hard working and they all get the blame for few bad apples.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

so...american politics, foreign policy, and international news, all with newly found connections to the events in okinawa are not allowed here?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

sfjp330Oct. 19, 2012 - 08:46AM JST

thanks for restoring my confidence in reasonable discussion. to be sure, the vast majority of americans are great, loving, caring and hard working people. but, such event can not be taken lightly and americans should expect to be criticized. sometimes, it is best to be humble instead of overly defensive because the perception arrogance will only make this worse.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

They will get the punishment they deserve and life will go on. America wil continue to occupy Japan and the good relations we have with this wonderful country will always out weigh the bad. I used to get really ashamed and embarrased by things like this. Now, I understand the justice system will do what it needs to do with no help from any of us. (but we all know that justice system is a different story) I feel so sorry for the victim, and now she will carry that for the rest of her life. It's no doubt and sad and disgusting thing to live with. I strongly believe that the Japanese understand that incidents like this are isolated and although we feel the affect of these crimes, our relations are great!. And this is based on history. And Im gonna enjoy some YOSAKOI!!! this weekend.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

America wil continue to occupy Japan and the good relations we have with this wonderful country will always out weigh the bad.

Fair statement. However, we are talking about Okinawa here. Although part of Japan, it cant be compared to mainland Japan regarding the mmilitary issues.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

cabadaje Well said on all parts....I would love to see what happens at the Chiefs Mess!

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Saidani posts are full of wisdoms and reflecting the local community burden and anger. I agree with his logic that the more US base stationed in Japan soil, the more missiles will be pointed toward here from hostile neighbors. If there is no base there, the missiles direction will be changed. Hosting US base in Japan soil is inviting for hostility and confrontation.

That base is purely for US Geographical strategic interest for maritime navigation and securing the oil supply. It is not safeguarding for Japan interest. In my knowledge, PRC has only one Air craft carrier which is not ready for combat yet. For the worst case scenario,they will not risk to sink their only one precious war ship. They will fly their all missiles for the conflict. When they are run out of the missiles, they will use the most lethal form weapons such as MRITV(Multiple Re-entry Independently Targeted Vehicles). Russia and North Korea are also very close to Japan. Instead of risking their expensive war ships, they will fly their missiles. Therefore Marines and that air base are not effective for real combat of modern warfare.

Socially, that crime was not a first one and unlikely it will be last one. To be fair, local have rights to demand the real deterrence such as capital punishment. For preventing future crimes, someone should be accountable. In Singapore, drug trafficking is deserved to punish with death penalty. No wonder it is drug and crime free society.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Except when you are the commanding general and any idea that you have is automatically deemed to be brilliant.

Ehh...a qualified "Yes". Commanding generals are generals because, through their careers, they have generally (hee hee) made some pretty good choices. Similarly, they surround themselves with people who can carry out those orders quickly and efficiently. Generals are not, however, considered by default to be brilliant. Like all people (although better than some) they can make the occasional bad call, and a bad call carried out quickly and efficiently does make others suffers. That's why they make sure to have people on their staff who are capable (and occasionally happy to) point out an boneheaded moves they make. Granted, by the time an order is rescinded, it still has caused a given amount of suffering.

Rape is just a "problem?"

Rape isn't just a problem: It is one of many, and one of the higher priority ones. Every society has a list of problems and a level of how grave each one is. Under Sharia law, rape is just a problem. Under the UCMJ, rape is a pretty damn big problem.

I didn't mean to make you mad. but it looks like your choice is for okinawa to accept a certain number of unfortunate rapes or japan can just defend itself. that seems kinda harsh. are you certain there isn't another choice for okinawans since they don't seem to be able to get rid of the americans?

It isn't so much that Okinawans have to accept a given amount of rape, but rather that pretty much every society has to accept that rape is one of the human instinctual behaviours that we still haven't managed to subdue. This doesn't mean that we have to give up on preventing it, and it certainly doesn't mean that it will always be a part of the human psyche, however it does mean that, at this moment in time, it is here, it is a fact of life, and trying to blame it on other groups or pretend it is something that can be avoided via paperwork is never going work out.

You propose a dichotomy that does not exist. It is not the existence of the military that creates rape. Japan defending itself will not make all rape disappear. Neither action influences the other, and setting them up as opposites is illogical and forces the erroneous conclusion that nothing can be done. Once you see that this train of thought is conceptually incorrect, that is when you can start seeing choices and making progress. There are plenty of choices for Okinawan's, as long as you don't limit yourself to thinking that the only way to stop rape is by removing the Americans.

but, such event can not be taken lightly and americans should expect to be criticized.

There is nothing wrong with being criticized. However, there is also nothing wrong with defending oneself when one is being unfairly criticized. Indeed, it is one's duty to do so.

cabadaje Well said on all parts....I would love to see what happens at the Chiefs Mess!

Not overly worried about that. Despite his insinuation that he could be found around the Chief's mess, I think he has made it fairly clear that he would stick out like a sore thumb anywhere near that environment.

But don't think I have a place there either. I was just a humble little O2 during my stay. I wasn't anywhere near as powerful as a Chief ;-)

Saidani posts are full of wisdoms and reflecting the local community burden and anger.

Reflecting the local community I will grant you. Wisdom...not so much.

I agree with his logic that the more US base stationed in Japan soil, the more missiles will be pointed toward here from hostile neighbors.

Wait, what? Are...we using "missiles" as some sort of polite reference to the tool of rape?

To be fair, local have rights to demand the real deterrence such as capital punishment. For preventing future crimes, someone should be accountable.

The locals can demand all they want, however, no country is going to impose the death penalty on someone just because a foreign country demanded it. Alternatively, concurrent jurisdiction, just like Japan and the US currently have, is common. Both statements you made above have already been fulfilled, several decades ago. After all, people back then where also capable of determining what was fair.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

It is not the existence of the military that creates rape. Japan defending itself will not make all rape disappear.

However, without the existance of the military, there would be no-rapes committed by the military. Yes, you are correct. Japan defending itself would not mkae all rape disappear. Unfortunately, the rapes that would still occur would be committed by people of thier own country and not by "Guests" staying in thier country. Big difference.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Big difference.

From a political standpoint, sure. But if we are talking politics, then I would refer you to D.j. KaRma's post, which summed up the end result of that.

Socially, I suppose it is arguable that, given a choice, a society would prefer a local rapist to a foreign rapist, although I could also see people preferring not to think one of their own could be capable of committing the crime.

On a personal level, I sincerely doubt a rape victim cares too much about the origin of her violator. She has more immediate concerns.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

I suppose it is arguable that, given a choice, a society would prefer a local rapist to a foreign rapist,

No. There is no arguement. How are the Okinawans supposed to accept that a "guest" in on thier island, "protecting" thier freedom, rapes one of thier own?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Missiles What ? Polite word for tool of rape?

Asian mentality is different from Westerners. We are too busy to think as teen boys. Missiles mean median and short range rockets attached with explosive devices. Truth is US is far away from hostile neighbors. Japan is the one to bear the consequence of explosion first.

It is true that Local demand will be never met by powerful friend. Nothing new about the local noise and over politeness from military authority. Overtime, thing will be normal like before. A few years later, local will make noise again because there will be another crime again. It is an crime not only against individual but also good will and gesture of community. Injustice and double standard will be always here. Co-operation without deterrence is pointless.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

No. There is no arguement.

Then there is no discussion. Which defeats the purpose of a discussion forum.

How are the Okinawans supposed to accept that a "guest" in on thier island, "protecting" thier freedom, rapes one of thier own?

Well, they should "accept" it because it happened. Should they be happy about it? Of course not. Should they be angrier because it was done by the U.S. military rather than by the next door neighbor, or the teacher, or someone from the other side of town? Well, that's more a matter for the people directly involved. If you are not directly involved, and yet you still presume to decide that being raped by a foreign person is worse than being raped by a local person, then you are making a political decision. And if you try to used a personal argument for a political decision, you will get a bit of sympathy, sure, but you will loose the argument, as all the opposition has to do is wait a couple of weeks and public interest will move elsewhere.

Oh, and you can cut out all the "guest" BS. The U.S. military is not here as a guest. It was not invited here. It is obviously not welcome here. It is not going away even when people are protesting outside the gates. The relationship here has nothing to do with being a guest.

Asian mentality is different from Westerners.

Sure it is.

We are too busy to think as teen boys.

Just not in that way.

In all cases, the topic is about the rape investigation, not about whether the base is a viable strategic defense option.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

guest BS? you need to check the posters they have up on the bases. Those were put up by the military, not the Okinawans.

And if the tables were turned and happened in your neighborhood, Im sure you would still just accept it.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

guest BS? you need to check the posters they have up on the bases. Those were put up by the military, not the Okinawans.

I'm talking about the BS of acting as if being "guests" somehow makes rape an even more horrible thing than it already is.

And if the tables were turned and happened in your neighborhood, Im sure you would still just accept it.

Of course I would. And I would go out of my way to support the victim. Additionally, I would do everything in my power to see to it that the perpetrators were punished to the fullest extent of the law. Depending on my relationship with the victim, I might even go as far as to see if I can get some friends of mine to contact some inmates on the inside to further educate the rapists on how it feels to be on the receiving end.

Accepting a problem doesn't mean you tolerate its existence. It means you spend more time trying to find a solution instead of complaining about things that won't change it.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Ringside!

What is the meaning of BS? You are right! If someone who has upper hand, he will control the faith and destiny of weaker one. LocalS have been frustrated for many decades about repeating same crime again and again. The response from military authority will be always same. It is do as what I told you! Not as what I do! If there is other way around, I could not imagine what will be their response? It is injustice and double standard.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Wow...being a guest doesn't make rape more horrible than it is? Ill protect your freedom, but let an occasional rape or hideous crime happen every once in awile. You dont have to tolerate it, just accept it. There are many military personnel on the island, its bound to happen, just suck it up and deal with it.

Is that how it goes? Look, I understand where you are coming from, but what are the Okinawans supposed to do? As you stated, nothing will change...is that it? Bend over Okinawa and take it how it is? How many more times should they sit back and hope things will get better when nothing is going to change?

Is it so wrong for the Okinawans to to complain, as you describe it, about an issue that repeatedly occurs that shouldn't happen at all?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Maybe if the punishment for rape was to be raped by an 800 pound gorilla, there would be way fewer rapes...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Innocent till proven otherwise.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Wow...being a guest doesn't make rape more horrible than it is?

Not as a default. It could, or it may not, depending on the perspective of the people directly involved. But, to be perfectly frank, arguing that rape is more horrible if done by this person, but not so horrible if done by that person, is both political, and slightly contemptible. In my experience, it is more horrible when it involves people you actually know, but then, I haven't been involved in a rape with people I don't know, so I couldn't say.

Ill protect your freedom, but let an occasional rape or hideous crime happen every once in awile.

That's your position? Seriously? That the American military "lets" rape and crime happen? There's your problem right there!

You dont have to tolerate it, just accept it.

And work to prevent it as much as possible. Why do you keep forgetting that part?

There are many military personnel on the island, its bound to happen, just suck it up and deal with it.

And here is the crux of the argument itself. You aren't trying to prevent rape. You aren't even trying to prevent rape by Americans. You are just trying to get rid of the Americans, and rape has become your latest excuse.

Hey, good on you. Everyone is entitled to their position. But cut the pretense. Pretending that my side is trying to trivialize rape, that this is horrific because the Americans are "guests", and guests shouldn't behave that way, that the U.S. allows rape to happen because it cannot completely prevent it from occurring, that's all BS.

Look, I understand where you are coming from, but what are the Okinawans supposed to do?

Same thing Americans do. Take it up with their government.

As you stated, nothing will change...is that it? Bend over Okinawa and take it how it is?

That's pretty much what they are doing now. Want to change it? Go ahead. ProTip: Protesting at the gates of the base isn't going to change anything. Protesting at the gates of the Japanese government buildings, well, that may well do it.

How many more times should they sit back and hope things will get better when nothing is going to change?

Why should you accept that nothing is going to change? Acceptance is for things that have already happened, not for things that are still in the future. The future is always up for change.

Is it so wrong for the Okinawans to to complain, as you describe it, about an issue that repeatedly occurs that shouldn't happen at all?

It is if you can't offer a workable solution and instead attempt to use the use the issue to pursue a political objective, knowing full well that the actual issue won't disappear. That's called deception.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

You might be joking the future is always up for change. In my widest dream, I imagined better and safer Okinawa since 1995. Reality is 2012 is not much different from 1995. Unlikely future will be rosy as you posted.

In anyway, the topic is about rape deterrence or meaningful judgement. As far as there are nepotism, favouritism over rapist over victim, tomorrows will be same as today. There is no point about processing predictable trial. It can be called as acting over acting!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Yes, depending on the people involved. In this case, an Okinawan woman and an individual of the military that is supposed to be here protecting their freedom. There is nothing political about it. If that is the way you feel, then obviously you have no idea what the Okinawan people have to constantly deal with over and over again.

I haven't forgotten anything. Why must the Okinawan people work to prevent anything. Should they ban women from walking on the streets after a certain time? Should Okinawan women take the long way around areas that American service members frequent? Is that the price they need to pay for freedom?

I, or the Okinawan people do not accept that things will not change. Remember, those were your words.

I am also not trying to get rid of the military either. I am an American. The thing that needs to be understood is that the Okinawans are tired. They are tired of all the burdens placed on them in the name of all of Japan. Tired of the repeated apologies. Tired of not being heard. If you cannot grasp these feelings that go deeper than what can be written or shown, then what is is to you is what it is.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Ringside, I feel those same feelings. The sad part is, this is the same reason my girlfriend refuses to walk down Gate 2 street at night to come home. We live in an apartment right behind the main drag. I can guarantee you that she is not afraid of the Japanese customers that are wandering on Gate 2 street during those times. Can you guess who she is avoiding?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

"We live in an apartment right behind the main drag"

But if the U.S. military wasn't in Japan, you wouldn't be there either. Guaranteed.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"makes me ashamed that I ever served"

I can't stand this type of attitude. You should be proud that you served ( without ever raping anyone, right? ) and be VERY angry at the idiot sailors who committed the rapes.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

LoL! aaand your point is?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Yes, depending on the people involved. In this case, an Okinawan woman and an individual of the military that is supposed to be here protecting their freedom. There is nothing political about it.

Unless YOU, yourself, are an involved party, then you are entirely, through the simple process of elimination, using this as a political tool. If you are not directly involved, you cannot assume what the personal impact of this is. Similarly, you cannot assume, socially, that you know whether the society regards the origin of the rapists as significant, or to what level. You may be correct, of course, but you have no way of knowing without due diligence, and right now, you are doing nothing more than assuming you are correct, posting your assumption as a fact, and using that alleged fact as a tool to support the political stand against the military presence. Yours is completely a political stand.

I haven't forgotten anything.

Then you need to pay more attention. You keep forgetting that I am against rape.

Why must the Okinawan people work to prevent anything.

Because they live there.

Should they ban women from walking on the streets after a certain time? Should Okinawan women take the long way around areas that American service members frequent?

That's as silly as saying that all service members should be confined to base.

Is that the price they need to pay for freedom?

It's apparently the price people are willing to impose on the military. But it is also moot, as no one is asking them to pay that price.

I, or the Okinawan people do not accept that things will not change. Remember, those were your words.

Ah, yet another case of forgetfulness. Let's look back on what my actual words on the subject were:

Sounds like someone refuses to believe that there are any possibilities other than his own to me.

every society has to accept that rape is one of the human instinctual behaviours that we still haven't managed to subdue. This doesn't mean that we have to give up on preventing it, and it certainly doesn't mean that it will always be a part of the human psyche,

Well, they should "accept" it because it happened. Should they be happy about it? Of course not.

Of course I would. And I would go out of my way to support the victim. Additionally, I would do everything in my power to see to it that the perpetrators were punished to the fullest extent of the law. Depending on my relationship with the victim, I might even go as far as to see if I can get some friends of mine to contact some inmates on the inside to further educate the rapists on how it feels to be on the receiving end.

Accepting a problem doesn't mean you tolerate its existence. It means you spend more time trying to find a solution instead of complaining about things that won't change it.

And work to prevent it as much as possible. Why do you keep forgetting that part?

Why should you accept that nothing is going to change? Acceptance is for things that have already happened, not for things that are still in the future. The future is always up for change.

Yeah, gotta say, you are forgetful. Not only have I never said things will never change, I have said the exact opposite of it.

I am also not trying to get rid of the military either. I am an American. The thing that needs to be understood is that the Okinawans are tired. They are tired of all the burdens placed on them in the name of all of Japan. Tired of the repeated apologies. Tired of not being heard. If you cannot grasp these feelings that go deeper than what can be written or shown, then what is is to you is what it is.

Hey, like I said before, good on you. You have a particular stance regarding the politics in your area, and you want to speak out about that stance. More power to you. However, if you really do want to change the world, you need to stop wasting time on things that, even if you successfully accomplished them, wouldn't actually change anything.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I'm not the type to give into knee-jerk reactions. Ever since I spoke with military personnell who were stationed at bases in Okinawa at one time or another, I always take such stories like this one with a grain of salt.

That being said, if these two sailors are guilty, they should have the book thrown at them. Rape is a horrific crime and those who perpetrate such deserve the maximum penalty under the law.

As far as closign the bases and sending all the US Military personnell to other places, if Japan and Okinawa ever do such, they can say "bye-bye" to 70~80% of Okinawa's economy, income, and revenue. Yes, there have been horrible crimes that have been committed in the past by US forces personnel, but they are in the vast, vast minority compared to the good that US forces personnel briong.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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