crime

U.S. judge denies bail to two men accused of aiding Ghosn escape

39 Comments
By David Shepardson and Nate Raymond

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39 Comments
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His escape kind of confirms his CEO skills....see a problem, find the best solution and see it through to the end.

What's not to like here?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Ghosn has screwed them over

Is too late to stop the fight, we gotta disclose all the abnormalities of the Japanese MOJ, and force corrections.

Its gonna set a precedent and save lots of people from any more wrong convictions in Japan.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Extraditing the Taylors to Japan will mean more injustice in a flawed legal system. This judge should allow these guys out on bail. They are being incarcerated for an extended period without a trial and that is illegal.

Whether it should be or not, it certainly isn't illegal, or particularly rare.

In this case, the judge has given his reason for denying bail: "there is a presumption against bail in extradition cases". Unless you have better information, you should assume that is correct; a judge is not likely to pull it out of nowhere.

Extraditing them to Japan will guarantee an UNfair prejudged trial and incarceration in Japan.

While their lawyers argue that they committed no extraditable crime in Japan, they may be making the best of a bad job, as lawyers often have to do for their clients. You can be certain that these two men did not consult a lawyer on their plan before getting Ghosn out of Japan, nor would any respectable lawyer fail to advise against what they did. So now they are where they are.

There are five other men in custody in Turkey. That's seven people who have exchanged their own liberty for Ghosn's - and he was already out on bail! I wonder if it's dawned on them yet that Ghosn has screwed them over.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

This Judge has no idea of the Japanese legal system (which is travesty in the legal world). Here are the facts: Ghosn can not get a fair trial in Japan (no body can). He is the scapegoat for corrupt Nissan board members who are jealous of the man's success. Extraditing the Taylors to Japan will mean more injustice in a flawed legal system.

This judge should allow these guys out on bail. They are being incarcerated for an extended period without a trial and that is illegal. Extraditing them to Japan will guarantee an UNfair prejudged trial and incarceration in Japan.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Ghosn is still my hero and these guys did a good thing by helping an innocent man escape a serious injustice.

They did it for money, which they'd better hope they can hold on to.

They needn't be surprised to find themselves in custody in the US, either. Michael Taylor, in addition to other troubles with the law, is a convicted criminal who pleaded guilty and received a 14-month custodial sentence back in 2012. So as well as already having experienced the US justice system, and presumably,not enjoying it, he'd have known that he was taking a huge risk this time.

And he was. Now he and his son are locked up, possibly to be sent to Japan, where they are even more unlikely to get bail; and Ghosn, who was already free, is free. Perhaps they are content to be someone else's idiot. It seems like a high price to pay for doing a good turn, though.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Peeping_Tom

Alright then, lets wait for Sept. 15th, when the Greg Kelly's trial starts for the very same "crime"

I'm pretty sure you'll hear all of these words: hostage justice, rigged trials, solitary confinement, forced confessions, torture, racism, ...

For sure Kelly and the Taylors (if they get extradited) are gonna get jail time, you're not mistaken.

But the world press will hear all of these WORDS.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

"Ghosn was forced by the Japanese injustice to skip bail."

Irrelevant; there's no precedent for this line of defence.

The Judge would simply ignore it, while wondering if you actually attended Law School.

Ignorantia Legis non Excusat.

I don't like many norms too; still have to abide by them.

Ask any father involved with child custodial matters in the UK.

But some "happy souls" think Japan is the worst when it comes to "selective Justice"

Just speak to any British father or read on Fathers for Justice.

Don't believe me.

Sorry, still working.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Ghosn is still my hero and these guys did a good thing by helping an innocent man escape a serious injustice.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Ghosn was set up and primed to take a fall. He escaped injustice and left the Js looking stupid and feeling deeply embarrassed. Result? The next best fall guys are going to be made to pay double for the embarrassment. Such a simple story.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

There are, have been reprehensible Laws: Apartheid.

some Japanese laws are reprehensible as well.

Skipping Bail/helping one escape justice is certainly not in that category.

Ghosn was forced by the Japanese injustice to skip bail.

Some reprehensible Japanese unique Law dictates that Ghosn must pay taxes for a bonus that he might get in the future.

The uniqueness of the Japanese Law System also dictates that Sakaigawa and others, do not have to abide the very same law in the very same circumstances.

The worst part is that the judges are so rigged, that no matter how immoral and indecent is that law, Ghosn doesn't stand a chance to win.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

"Some laws in South Africa force female ablation."

Are we talking about clandestine, back of the lorry, in the bush, in some obscure room practices, or actual South African enshrined Legislation?

I am not familiar with S African legislation, but can almost assure you my first proposition is more likely than the second one. I am actually working today, thus cannot check; but I certainly will.

"I'm making this extreme example to make you understand that some laws shouldn't exist."

That is the reason murder, rape, robbery, battery, infanticide, wilful negligence resulting in death, etc., etc., are universally unacceptable, thus penalise.

There are, have been reprehensible Laws: Apartheid.

However, even the Apartheid Laws, were legal.

Immorality, indecency of the Law, have been the subject of countless essays; see Hart if you are interested in the subject.

Skipping Bail/helping one escape justice is certainly not in that category.

Even if you do not agree with the System.

Colloquially speaking:

If you cannot do the time, do not do the crime.

Back to work for me now.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Dura Lex Sed Lex.

There's a humanitarian line that some countries trespass.

Some laws in South Africa force female ablation.

Would you still abide the law there?

Would you mutilate your children just because an unjust law, or would you fly to a 1st world country for help?

I'm making this extreme example to make you understand that some laws shouldn't exist.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@wtfjapan outsmarted as in, ended up in a s-hole like Lebanon for the rest of his life? LOL

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

"What would you do if you get trapped in the in a toxic justice system?

Would you abide the injustice, or would you fly to a 1st world country for help?"

What you want is irrelevant.

"Locus Delicti" is very clear.

I'm speaking from a full LLB, LPC, plus actual employment.

Not Wiki or flights of fancy.

Dura Lex Sed Lex.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Since when are you allowed to elect your Jurisdiction, procedural rules and system of Law applicable to your case? That's what you're saying.

Some countries do not have a fair justice system: China, Japan, North Korea, ...

What would you do if you get trapped in the in a toxic justice system?

Would you abide the injustice, or would you fly to a 1st world country for help?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

"Nobody would expect a fair trial in Japan, better fly away and take a trial in any country with a healthy justice system."

All this sentence proves is that you're not familiar with the "Locus Delicti and Criminal Jurisdiction".

Since when are you allowed to elect your Jurisdiction, procedural rules and system of Law applicable to your case? That's what you're saying.

Well, NEVER.

Then again, that's something you must learn at a Law Degree level.

Tangerine knows all about Legal concepts; he will explain it in no time (after checking Wiki).

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Anyone who doesn't agree with his sentence/charge is justified and entitled to take off, disobey and disrespect a country's Legal System.

That's your interpretation of @Mark words.

I read it as Japan's trials are famous for its lack of independence and objective reasoning.

Nobody would expect a fair trial in Japan, better fly away and take a trial in any country with a healthy justice system.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

"No One would flee these charges unless they strongly believe they are being treated unfairly or being set up by their former employer. Mr. G has plenty of resource to fight the charges in court , but he must have strongly believe he can't have a fair trial."

What an interesting "legal concept" you're espousing here:

Anyone who doesn't agree with his sentence/charge is justified and entitled to take off, disobey and disrespect a country's Legal System.

Nice.

As per Borat, I like.

Out of curiosity:

How many people do you think would agree with charges/sentence levied against their person?

How many of those facing a possibly lengthy prison sentence would chose to stay put, when they could simply leg it without any fear of State reprisals?

Probably you alone would.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

""Ghosn fled to Lebanon, his childhood home, after being charged in Japan with engaging in financial fraud by understating his compensation in Nissan's financial statements. He denies wrongdoing.""

No One would flee these charges unless they strongly believe they are being treated unfairly or being set up by their former employer. Mr. G has plenty of resource to fight the charges in court , but he must have strongly believe he can't have a fair trial.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Japan's Judicial system is unfair, and Countries should seriously consider their extradition treaties with it.

Sure, it's better than China, but in the case of the Ghosn affair... do they really want the whole issue blown open and laid bare for all to see... and without any cover-ups - such as the one Abe, his Wife & their Cronies made.... ?

0 ( +4 / -4 )

"So where are all the Ghosn fans now who were absolutely adamant that the Taylors would make bail?"

Simultaneously parroting the Defence (of COURSE, the Defence must take this line) that no crime was committed, as if Japan was the only country in the World where one is permitted to make a mockery of the Justice System.

Me needs some Tangerines.

Yeah, you said it @Peeping_Tom . Especially the part about Japan’s justice system. I was saying something along those lines before, and I’m glad now it’s taking root.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Ghosn has the biggest of all balls in my opinion.

He was railroaded, pure and simple.

Not the prettiest of exits but one born of necessity.

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

So where are all the Ghosn fans now who were absolutely adamant that the Taylors would make bail?

I never said they'll make bail, but Japan still lost Ghosn totally outsmarted and they know it, it destroys them on the inside lol

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Is the recipient of the bundle of Fukuzawa notes not also guilty of helping Ghosn’s escape?

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Unfortunately the US judge is going down the same road as Japan. Denied bail should be for very serious physical crimes like murder.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

So where are all the Ghosn fans now who were absolutely adamant that the Taylors would make bail?

Yes. Because denied bail means guilt. Same thinking with Japan Injustice System.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Going back to the Imperial United States was a complete fool move. Seriously.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

So where are all the Ghosn fans now who were absolutely adamant that the Taylors would make bail?

@Ossan America - That is a very strange and very specific accusation. I am surprised you mentioned no names. Are you accusing ALL Ghosn supporters of this? I am a Ghosn supporter. But I am not a fan of American courts (or Japanese ones for that matter). I believe the Taylors "should" be given bail, or at the very least be put under house arrest. However, I have to say I would never "expect" justice to come out of an American court, but only hope. In my experience, justice is a coin toss in America and having the world's largest prison population, now and in all human history, makes good proof of that.

So anyway, I find it surprising that anyone would insist adamantly that the Taylors would for sure get bail. Is that really what you are saying? Did these people claim to know the judge? To have a crystal ball handy? Do you have a name or a quote? It all seems very strange to me.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

So now we have a mysterious bundle of YEN thing happening.......this seems to be new info......

3 ( +3 / -0 )

It also included, she added, Michael Taylor in Japan "checking with airport staff about security procedures and giving an airport worker a bundle of Japanese yen,

I would expect a judge who was refusing bail would use more specific language than this.

How much is a bundle?

gary

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Japan is specially intolerant about bribes.

You bet. Only politicians and top officials are allowed to take bribes. When lower level staff get in on it, things have gotten out of hand.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

This is extremely serious if true. Under the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act it's a federal crime to bribe a foreign government official

if that's right we could be facing serious trouble.

Japan is specially intolerant about bribes.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

"So where are all the Ghosn fans now who were absolutely adamant that the Taylors would make bail?"

Simultaneously parroting the Defence (of COURSE, the Defence must take this line) that no crime was committed, as if Japan was the only country in the World where one is permitted to make a mockery of the Justice System.

Me needs some Tangerines.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

giving an airport worker a bundle of Japanese yen

This is extremely serious if true. Under the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act it's a federal crime to bribe a foreign government official in the furtherance of your business interests. The Taylors, Ghosn's children and Carole Ghosn are all subject to FCPA as US persons and could face charges if they played any role in this.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

“It also included, she added, Michael Taylor in Japan "checking with airport staff about security procedures and giving an airport worker a bundle of Japanese yen“

WTF?

9 ( +9 / -0 )

So where are all the Ghosn fans now who were absolutely adamant that the Taylors would make bail?

-1 ( +10 / -11 )

it's been 11 weeks in confinement already.

for humanitarian reasons its about time to conclude this extradition.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

Wait -

giving an airport worker a bundle of Japanese yen

That indicates serious deficiencies in airport security. What if it were not a person but drugs or weapons? And why has that airport worker not been identified?

8 ( +12 / -4 )

Good..

0 ( +12 / -12 )

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