U.S. Supreme Court allows extradition to Japan of Ghosn escape aides

This was to be expected, as the only plausible legal outcome

Everyone with "De Minimis" knowledge of anything legal would have come to this conclusion from the very outset of this saga.

Well, everyone except Ghosn's defence team, (but then again they are excused, given that the Defence is there to be "creative"), and the countless "JT Jurisconsult" posting on this subject.

Time for them to experience Japan's "medieval incarceration and torture "techniques.

What will be funny is when Japan charge them, the penalty will be deportation.

They didn’t actually break any laws in Japan. Helping someone escape is not an offense under Japanese law. They will cop the same treatment as Ghosn. They’ll be held indefinitely without a charge and interrogated daily until they confess to doing something that is not illegal in Japan. More stranger than fiction stories from Japan.

Hokkaidoboy

“SCOTUS has no minimal idea of how how bad Japanese justice system works as I can see”

Have you ever been in trouble with police here?

"Ghosn made millions working for Nissan, living in Japan, a good life." Nissan was resurrected by him, made billions under his command while due to the Japanese remuneration practices he was the lowest paid auto industry helmsman during his tenure. Like in the communist countries where the politicians got paid symbolic wages and only way to get something form their work they had to resort to corruption Ghosn was making up for his losses by manipulating his income but not in a criminal way and not in a excessive way. If they paid him same money as other car tsars were paid he would not have to dance around accounting and tax laws. Any business person will understand that. He built a paradise for those that forced him out.

He should have quit all and left Nissan. that simple.

@Do the hustleToday  07:23 am JST

They didn’t actually break any laws in Japan. Helping someone escape is not an offense under Japanese law. They will cop the same treatment as Ghosn. They’ll be held indefinitely without a charge and interrogated daily until they confess to doing something that is not illegal in Japan. More stranger than fiction stories from Japan.

An they have to find someone to smuggle them out of the country for discount price !

Kelly and the Taylors will go to jail.

It's unavoidable.

If there's no criminal to put in jail the prosecution won't be able to justify all this years of wasted resources.

They'll be held without bail for a trial that will be intentionally delayed for many years. Unless, of course, they confess and repent.

RecklessToday  08:16 am JST

I wonder if Ghosn will save them? You know, leave no man behind.

Ghosn’s motto must be ‘ Leave no money behind’

If they paid him same money as other car tsars were paid he would not have to dance around accounting and tax laws. Any business person will understand that. He built a paradise for those that forced him out.

ROFL, he didn’t get paid enough so he is justified in stealing money!!!

They will be arrested and detained for 23 days x infinity without getting charged.

Ask the offshore banks, French and Dutch governments, and his sons company that got $20m.

HokkaidoboyToday  07:02 am JST

SCOTUS has no minimal idea of how bad Japanese justice system works as I can see.

The Supreme Court of the United States has no interest, influence, authoruty or jurisdiction on the courts of another sovereign nation. The SCOTUS couldn't give a rat's axx.

Do the hustleToday  07:23 am JST

They didn’t actually break any laws in Japan. 

Then why did they bother paying an expensive Massacheusetts law firm to keep fighting this extradition? According to you, all they had to do was present themselves before a Japanese Court and say that.

Have you ever been in trouble with police here?

I’ll tell you what, the Taylor’s have it coming for them. Foreigners are treated like crap by the police. I was detained at the police station for six hours for not having my driver’s license with me because I switched bags and left it at home. They wouldn’t let me go (random rule just made up) until my boss came into Shibuya police station to bail me out. This was on a sunny Sunday afternoon. They just wanted to shame you.

And yes, if we don’t like it we can always go home because this is Japanese Omotenashi.

Breyer's order, which followed similar rulings by lower courts, was issued without comment. 

That was fast

When they arrive in Japan, they will be formally arrested. They will have to appear before a judge in 72 hours. If they have committed no crime in Japan, then the judge should release them.

The prosecutor will request a 10 day extension in order to "investigate", and of course the judge will automatically endorse this.

If, they stay silient and do not confess, the prosecutor will request another 10 day extension. A judge will automatically endorse this. That is when the real interrogation will begin.

It is worth noting that they are entitled to contact their embassy at any time (refusal by the police or prosecutor is a breach of protocol) and are entitled to a lawyer, but the prosecutor does not have to inform a defence lawyer as to when and where the accused will be questioned.

Within the 20 days the prosecutor will probably decide there has been wrongdoing and indict. A judge will automatically endorse this, and keep them detained.

Although a defendant can keep applyjng for bail on unlimited occasions, the prosecutor will always object and the judges will automatically endorse the objection and refuse bail, when they run out of reasons, they will simply give no reason.

The prosecutor in Japan is a very powerful bureaucrat, and judges very weak.

Incidently, the 20 day holding period for investigation was a concession given to Japan when Japan was given it's new cobstitution after WW2. The reason was that Japan feared a massive wave of foriegn Asian refugees and criminals entering the country.

A terrible mistake was made that day 70 or so years ago.

"They'll be held without bail for a trial that will be intentionally delayed for many years. Unless, of course, they confess and repent."

They could always hire Ghosn to come liberate them from servitude.

Lots of big black boxes on sale;.

Not very expensive too.

Prosecutors will flay them as a face saving exercise, justice has no place here. It’s all about a misdirected Sense of pride and a desperate need to justify a system of law that’s faulty.

Federal Judge Indira Talwani pointed out, moreover, that their alleged actions would be considered a crime in the United States, as well as in Japan.

Irrelevant and immaterial. The SCOJT has already decreed that the persons in question has done no such crimes here in Japan

If you really wanna know you should be advocating his return to Japan and face the charges so that your question can be answered.

I'm in disbelief.

I know for a fact that Japanese Justice is not to be trusted.

But still want to know the real facts from witnesses and evidence.

Since the charging documents, which few here seem to be familiar with but are public information, rely upon a statute, the letter of which these people have not broken, and in a fantasy realm where they did, carries a less-than-three year maximum penalty, this is almost certainly bad-money-after-mediocre-money face-saving techniques by a prosecution that never thought they would have to put their facts in the public domain. Everyone reasonable knows how this ends... foreigners don't confess to crimes they have not done... The scrutiny this case has put the Japanese prosecutorial system to is lamentable... but there is no system in the hierarchy for backing out.

RecklessToday  08:16 am JST

I wonder if Ghosn will save them? You know, leave no man behind.

Kelly probably would have something to say about that.

Sorry Ghosnbelievers

No such people. But I am sure there are Japan Injustice apologists.

American guys would not go to jail. It seems to me Japan wants more escape information from them. Their penalty seems Japan gets all money Ghosn paid for the escape plan. That's Nissan's money.

@,kwatt. You are probably right, Japanese prosecutors want information, and Blood Money. (Being foriegn, the amount of Blood Money paid will have to be a lot more than what native Japanese pay). In order to get this information and money, they will effectively be hostages.

Generally in Japan, Blood Money between locals can be settled out of court, and even be done in installments. However in bad precedent was set in 1986 by a bad judge when an injuried fight victim (Japanese) wanted double the amount normally paid to an injuried victim by the assailant. When it was suggested by the defence team that some of the money could be paid at a later date, the victim told the court that the accused was not of Japanese status, and "had heard" of cases where Japanese loose out.

I know for a fact that Japanese Justice is not to be trusted.

Agreed, but on the positive side, now that Japan's justice system is being scrutinised internationally, I think that Japan will be carefull to do things properly this time. (Japan is always sensitive to negative international attention although never admits it).

My guess is, the original prosecutors who handled the Mr.Ghosn's case have been removed. Sinse that case, the Chief Prosecutor has been replaced. The UN report into Mr.Ghosn's ilegal detention does recommend those responsible be appropriatly reprimanded.

Japan knows that it is being watched.

"If the Taylors were 2 Japanese citizens who helped a U.S citizen escape from the U.S it would have turned into a war!???"

The best question on this thread by a mile.

Not a war per se, but JT legal "experts" would be twisting and turning in order to elucidate us all on the crimes committed, as well as in the virtues of respect for the American judiciary.

I can show you the textbook, and in addition I can also show you a bill from California that shows that this kind of language that seems to put presumption of innocence in second place is not uncommon. On Slide 3, note the words regarding bail "If released the defendant will not **continue to commit crimes"*. Of course, one can argue that this assumes *the defendant has already committed the crime he is accused with in contravention of presumption of innocence, but such is the reality of real legislation.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1jL0a7SXeqV3sWhh7a1akjqnJZQIkYYPbQ63vTuypifE/edit?usp=sharing

These Americans probably spent their entire compensation from Mr. Ghosn on their legal efforts to fight extradition. They will be broke and unable to afford attorneys for their Japanese legal travails, once the Taylors arrive in Japan.

SCOTUS has no minimal idea of how bad Japanese justice system works as I can see.

The relevant part:

*Article 103 A person who harbors or enables the escape of another person who has either committed a crime punishable with a fine or greater punishment [...] shall be punished by imprisonment with work for not more than 3 years or a fine of not more than 300,000 yen.*

If the Taylors were 2 Japanese citizens who helped a U.S citizen escape from the U.S it would have turned into a war!???

The only parts of the judicial systems in the US where people awaiting trial and not yet tried or convicted are incarcerated like they are in Japan are where military combatants are held in places like Guantanamo. And Americans regularly protest these kinds of places; if someone (not yet convicted, I remind you) had been helped to escape from such a system, more than a few Americans would be standing up and cheering.

Who is the one that has "committed a crime" ?

Carlos Ghosn. By, at the very least, violating Article 25(2) of the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act. You don't get the required departure confirmation from the immigration inspector when you hide in a box.

*(2) The alien set forth in the preceding paragraph shall not depart from Japan unless he/she has received confirmation of departure.*

And yes, violation of 25(2) is punishable by a fine or greater.

In my opinion there is also a strong case to be made for 'escape' to cover escape from the jurisdiction in relation to the original charges Ghosn was bailed for, and for 'escape from confinement' to cover Ghosn's confinement at home in accordance with his bail conditions, but we need not go there in order to keep things simple.

What's next are they gonna appeal to the "Supreme supreme court?

the more the Greg Kelly's trial develops we get more facts from the witness.

would be very informative a long article replenish with the data that was released on the trial.

i really wanna know if any crime was committed at all.

That was fast! It must have been a very easy case.

Japan has the full right to claim these suspects.

But why not pursuing Ghosn in Lebanon?

Looks like a diversion to me to minimize the lose facing syndrom from the prosecutor.

It's a question of Japan's legal system has gone badly wrong.

There's a line between reasoned criticism and unreasoned bashing. I remember letting the critics have their piece before Ghosn ran off, because back then, it was at least plausibly arguable that Ghosn was actually low-risk (though the prosecutor clearly has much more contact with him than the complainers ever did). Now that he has run off with the help of Special Forces, that clearly is no longer a plausible position, and yet no one changes their position any. It has gotten to the point where even rulings from an American court is insufficient to alter the opinions of the stuck minds.

If Ghosn was considered low risk, why as he re-arrested, why was bail refused so many times with no reason given. Why were bail conditions so disgusting (who ever heard of a condition forbidding somebody to contact their spouse).

Lets face it, Japans scam, sham law using Pearl Habour tactics has backfired in Japans face. No point in covering this with academic clap-trap.

Ghosn. Yes, I know what you want to say. You want to say he's only a defendant, not a convict. This problem is actually sufficiently well known enough it goes in textbooks. The conclusion is that 罪を犯した者 does include the Suspects and Defendants, so as to meet Chapter VII's focus on ensuring the integrity of the judicial process as opposed to Chapter VI's emphasis on ensuring the functionality of confinement.

@Alan Harrison Today  05:08 pm JST

Unless you wish to argue that anyone, in any country that remands a defendant is "punishing" him, neither he nor his relative is being "punished". They do, indeed, have their rights restricted, but to balance the rights of the defendants + family and the need for the judicial process to go ahead is accepted in all countries. Or can you say that your country never remands anyone, including those who can hire Special Forces to escape to another country?

@ThonTaddeoToday 01:14 pm JST

Kazuaki, you can't possibly think that someone deserves something worse than deportation because of opinions expressed on an online forum.

Sure, but the question is whether a legal system that's 400 years behind the times, as suggested by Alan Harrison's "dragged back 400 years" will see things this way. For example, if Alan lived in the PRC, would he have made equivalent comments? Probably not because he'll be acutely aware of the possibility he'll be charged with "making quarrels and provoking trouble", Article 293 of their Criminal Code. Of course, one reason Alan lives in Japan and not in China may be because he doesn't want that risk. And that's fine. But then he should refrain from making comments that equivalate the two, or worse, may well put Japan behind China in this department.

The article fails to state what they are being charged with.

They've been charged under article 103 of the penal code.

Article 103 A person who harbors or enables the escape of another person who has either committed a crime punishable with a fine or greater punishment or has escaped from confinement shall be punished by imprisonment with work for not more than 2 years or a fine of not more than 200,000 yen.

Link Please. How could this issue have gone as far as the SCOJT when it has not even been tried? 

Merely referring to SC of Japan Today, sorry for the confusion

If the Taylors were 2 Japanese citizens who helped a U.S citizen escape from the U.S it would have turned into a war!???

@Alan Harrison Today 02:46 am JST

If Ghosn was considered low risk, why as he re-arrested, why was bail refused so many times with no reason given. 

I didn't say he was low risk. As it turned out he was high risk. The prosecutor thought he was high risk, and in the end he was proved correct. The judge thought he was medium risk, so in the end he allowed the bail with relatively stringent conditions, and in the end he underestimated Ghosn.

I said before he escaped, it is at least not manifestly unreasonable for an apologist to argue he is low risk. Which is not to say someone arguing he is high risk is wrong, but at least the low risk argument is colorable.

Why were bail conditions so disgusting (who ever heard of a condition forbidding somebody to contact their spouse).

The expectation that the defendant stays honest is low in continental (not just Japanese) law, and that's the fundamental reason why Article 97 limits itself to suspects / defendants in jail, not on bail (as pointed out by every Taylor apologist). While we're at it, defendants are allowed to lie in court (which frees their attorneys from having to carefully adjust the testimony so it is maximally advantageous while not being provable perjury).

Next to them are their relatives, so we actually have this:

Article 105 When a crime prescribed under the preceding two Articles is committed for the benefit of the criminal or fugitive by a relative of such person, the relative may be exempted.

Yes, if the Taylors were relatives of the Ghosns, they may be exempted from punishment. And among the relatives, in Japanese law, the spouse is considered the closest relative, able to receive the largest shares of the inheritance, but also thus the least trusted in this situation. I say Japanese law here because I know some continental law systems puts the spouse in the same rank as the kids - can't exclude the possibility that they are informally closer within the same rank.

And if you understand this reason, you'll also understand that there is no reason for Article 103 to not apply to the Taylors.

Oops, that first paragraph is a quote from Mark above and should have a quote bar to the side.

@Kazuaki Shimazaki

The conclusion is that 罪を犯した者 does include the Suspects and Defendants

If you can backup your words with a legal document, I'll accept defeat and walk away silently.

These Americans probably spent their entire compensation from Mr. Ghosn on their legal efforts to fight extradition. They will be broke and unable to afford attorneys for their Japanese legal travails, once the Taylors arrive in Japan.

If they set up a crowdfunding page, I would happily donate.

Really unfair.

@Alan HarrisonToday 06:40 pm JST

As for the prosecutor's little ploy, how cheap, how nasty, how disgusting, how pathetic, how low down. As for the judge(s) that endorsed this condition, how feeble minded, how weak, how brain dead.

Perhaps we can make statements that take into account the fact Ghosn escaped?

Don't compare Japan to other countries, other countries don't want their legal syetems to be dragged back 400 years.

I'll be blunt here. I wouldn't say that even of the PRC's legal system, and you know this isn't true. If this is true, either you don't live in Japan or you won't dare say that because if your current statements are discovered, losing whatever is your current residency status would be a very lenient disposition. Ultimately, you know that they'll grin and bear your unsubstantiated insults, and that in itself proves that the above isn't true.

@Sal AffistToday 07:59 pm JST

These Americans probably spent their entire compensation from Mr. Ghosn on their legal efforts to fight extradition. They will be broke and unable to afford attorneys for their Japanese legal travails, once the Taylors arrive in Japan.

That's possible but it'll be their own darn fault. The fact they chose to commit their crime aside, reading their submissions to the US courts, they've been submitting their arguments, getting them rejected, and then resubmitting the exact same arguments as if nothing has happened. Their attorneys are either not doing their job (or maliciously trying to scrape all the money they can out of the case by running up the hours) by not being upfront with the Taylors about their real chances, or the Taylors are ignoring them.

either you don't live in Japan or you won't dare say that because if your current statements are discovered, losing whatever is your current residency status would be a very lenient disposition

Kazuaki, you can't possibly think that someone deserves something worse than deportation because of opinions expressed on an online forum.

@ThonTaddeo Today 10:29 am JST

But when people see Japan's legal system doing things that would not be out of place in the PRC, people are going to criticize that.

In the PRC, Ghosn would have been "disappeared" (even Alibaba's Jack Ma disappeared for a bit recently). In Japan, at least we always know where he is (until he escaped). There's a gap between reasoned criticism and unthinking bashing. And there is a time when one should rightly concede one's poster boy isn't so much of a poster boy due to elements in his particular case.

America actually extradites people (except that woman to the UK)

I hope whatever Ghosn paid them was worth it, they are never going to find work again.

I don’t agree with how Ghosn’s arrest and trial were conducted but he is not an innocent party here. He thought he was untouchable and realized the hard way that he isn’t!!!

Great news! Now rendition Ghosn back here, extradite his wife and son from USA.

Enjoy your flight guys. Next Mrs. Ghosn and family will soon be in Japan.

@justasking, @Alan Harrison

The Taylors have already been charged. Extradition would not have been possible otherwise. They may face additional charges once they arrive.

Here many justify stealing because they "paid little" ... well, you know, if they rob them in their companies because their workers think they charge little, do not complain.

And Justice is SERVED.

Kazuaki Shimazaki Today  10:48 am JST

And if you understand this reason, you'll also understand that there is no reason for Article 103 to not apply to the Taylors.

Call me stupid, but still don't understand how article 103 apply to the Taylors

oooh~

Who is the one that has "committed a crime" ?

Unless you wish to argue that anyone, in any country that remands a defendant is "punishing" him, neither he nor his relative is being "punished". They do, indeed, have their rights restricted, but to balance the rights of the defendants + family and the need for the judicial process to go ahead is accepted in all countries. Or can you say that your country never remands anyone, including those who can hire Special Forces to escape to another country?

Mrs.Ghosn was questioned, but never arrested, charged or indicted. No reason for any inhumane restrictions. As for the prosecutor's little ploy, how cheap, how nasty, how disgusting, how pathetic, how low down. As for the judge(s) that endorsed this condition, how feeble minded, how weak, how brain dead. Don't compare Japan to other countries, other countries don't want their legal syetems to be dragged back 400 years.

For example, if Alan lived in the PRC, would he have made equivalent comments? Probably not because he'll be acutely aware of the possibility he'll be charged with "making quarrels and provoking trouble"

Yes, the PRC is a totalitarian surveillance state that monitors even things as trivial as a comment forum, but Japan is not such an authoritarian state and I don't think anyone wants Japan to become like that. But when people see Japan's legal system doing things that would not be out of place in the PRC, people are going to criticize that.

American guys would not go to jail. It seems to me Japan wants more escape information from them. Their penalty seems Japan gets all money Ghosn paid for the escape plan. That's Nissan's money.

I know for a fact that Japanese Justice is not to be trusted.

Use your common sense and don't cross a line. wherever you are. Try not to play with written laws for your own benefits but do strictly adhere to the common sense.

Why were bail conditions so disgusting (who ever heard of a condition forbidding somebody to contact their spouse).

*The expectation that the defendant stays honest is low in continental (not just Japanese) law, and that's the fundamental reason why Article 97 limits itself to suspects / defendants in jail, not on bail (as pointed out by every Taylor apologist). While we're at it, defendants are allowed to lie in court (which frees their attorneys from having to carefully adjust the testimony so it is maximally advantageous while not being provable perjury).*

Next to them are their relatives, so we actually have this:

To put that in plain English, Japanese law, punishes relatives of a defendant. How digusting. How uncivilised,. How medievil. How barbaric. How primitive, How savage. How backwards. So, this is Japan.

Ghosn made millions working for Nissan, living in Japan, a good life." Nissan was resurrected by him, made billions under his command while due to the Japanese remuneration practices he was the lowest paid auto industry helmsman during his tenure. Like in the communist countries where the politicians got paid symbolic wages and only way to get something form their work they had to resort to corruption Ghosn was making up for his losses by manipulating his income but not in a criminal way and not in a excessive way. If they paid him same money as other car tsars were paid he would not have to dance around accounting and tax laws. Any business person will understand that. He built a paradise for those that forced him out.

That's your comeback and defense for Ghosn? Have fun winning with that argument in court.

The Taylors have to face the music. I think at this point they wish they had returned to Lebanon with Ghosn. They are also Lebanese nationals/citizens (Taylor Seniors wife is/was Lebanese too) so could have lived there in luxury with their millions. On the other hand, they will likely not face too long a sentence in Japan on these charges. Perhaps 1-2 years or so. Then continue mercenary type work in the middle east.

*"Ghosn made millions working for Nissan, living in Japan, a good life." Nissan was resurrected by him, made billions under his command while due to the Japanese remuneration practices he was the lowest paid auto industry helmsman during his tenure. Like in the communist countries where the politicians got paid symbolic wages and only way to get something form their work they had to resort to corruption Ghosn was making up for his losses by manipulating his income but not in a criminal way and not in a excessive way. If they paid him same money as other car tsars were paid he would not have to dance around accounting and tax laws. Any business person will understand that. He built a paradise for those that forced him out.*

Try to compare his remuneration with other major Japanese auto makers like Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Isuzu.

Not satisfied with it? How about comparing it with other Japanese CEO's in all fields in Japan?

　http://honkawa2.sakura.ne.jp/5456.html

Welcome to the country which is the most successful socialism country, even better than communist China.

I'll be blunt here. I wouldn't say that even of the PRC's legal system, and you know this isn't true. If this is true, either you don't live in Japan or you won't dare say that because if your current statements are discovered, losing whatever is your current residency status would be a very lenient disposition. Ultimately, you know that they'll grin and bear your unsubstantiated insults, and that in itself proves that the above isn't true.

@kazuaki Shimazaki

I'll be blunt. The immigration office decides visa status, not you. (Are you a self appointed immigration officer? I think not).

i@nToday  10:55 am JST

Federal Judge Indira Talwani pointed out, moreover, that their alleged actions would be considered a crime in the United States, as well as in Japan.

Irrelevant and immaterial. The SCOJT has already decreed that the persons in question has done no such crimes here in Japan

Link Please. How could this issue have gone as far as the SCOJT when it has not even been tried? How could the MOF have submitted an extradition request if that were the case?

"Ghosn made millions working for Nissan, living in Japan, a good life." Nissan was  resurrected by him, made billions under his command while due to the Japanese remuneration practices he was the lowest paid auto industry helmsman during his tenure. Like in the communist countries where the politicians got paid symbolic wages and only way to get something form their work they had to resort to corruption Ghosn was making up for his losses by manipulating his income but not in a criminal way and not in a excessive way. If they paid him same money as other car tsars were paid he would not have to dance around accounting and tax laws. Any business person will understand that. He built a paradise for those that forced him out.

Ask the offshore banks, French and Dutch governments, and his sons company that got $20m.

is not that easy. we need to know WHO sent the money. we need to know WHO signed the receipts and WHO covered up.

bokudaToday  08:51 am JST

i really wanna know if any crime was committed at all.

If you really wanna know you should be advocating his return to Japan and face the charges so that your question can be answered.

When I visit your country I follow the rules and laws of the land. I don't break them, then run away because it's not fair.

Ghosn made millions working for Nissan, living in Japan, a good life. He had no problems with Japan then, or the legal system of the land.

Only when Ghosn got in trouble, he suddenly had no choice but to run away like a criminal. Like a prisoner trying to escape from justice.