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After The Beatles, who remains an iTunes holdout?

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I'm a big Mac fan, but it seemed a bit too much hoopla for the arrival of the Beatles on iTunes. It seems more of a personal victory for Steve Jobs than anything else.

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OH my GOSH! This is shocking and dangerous!

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The music industry is dead, you can't make money there at all

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Angus Young of AC/DC, another act with an exceptionally lucrative catalog of music, once insisted that AC/DC doesn’t make singles, “we make albums.”

Really? Then stop selling your songs to every movie studio that wants to use 'Back in Black', 'Highway to Hell' or 'Shook Me All Night Long' for their soundtrack or movie trailer.

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Sure you can! Just perform live acts, tour and EARN money, not just receive it!

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What a surprise, all of the musicians mentioned above are washed up fossils with their best days behind them. They'll still make money with overpriced, second rate material, as all of their old fans will lap it up, but any new band needs the sort of exposure iTunes can offer. My friend's local band from the UK is on iTunes all over the world - there's no way they could afford the distribution to sell it in so many countries if it was in HMV or whatever. Long live iTunes.

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I'm not hurt by thhis news. I can get their music in a different way. Hehehehehe !!!!! Heheheheh !!!!!

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Why buy this stuff when you can get it for free?

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Really? Then stop selling your songs to every movie studio that wants to use 'Back in Black', 'Highway to Hell' or 'Shook Me All Night Long' for their soundtrack or movie trailer.

Excellent point, stereoman.

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that's exactly why I love iTunes (besides being a Mac fan): I don't want to pay for 10 songs in order to listen to 1 or 2. While I can listen to music for free, I gave up the habit in order to support the musicians I like; but I want the freedom to choose what I buy and what I don't.

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music isn't free, freedom and music don't mix, all these people saying I support the music I love by going to concerts and buying t-shirts are trying to justify not paying for music. Music is not a right, it is not taking away your freedom if you have to pay for it. At least when napster was around people felt guilty downloading but apple destroyed the music business. Everyone spends their money on D&G sunglasses and the latest iphones, no one buys magazine or music anymore.

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Prince is a curious character. It's bizarre that he thinks the internet is now a dead space, when actually it's more alive than ever. It's now completely normal for people to use social networking on their phones and laptops on the train ride home, and iTunes is getting in on that action with a new service called Ping that basically is facebook for your playlist. Like this song, let everyone know, etc. Great in theory, though I abhorr iTunes and the way it refuses to let me arrange names for my files, but instead wants to source them itself. If anyone knows how I can command itunes to sort files by Folder name and file name rather than metadata I can't easily access, let me know!

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saborichan, I use the playlists as folder substitute. works fine for me

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The only people who think that an average band can make money based upon live performances only is someone who has ZERO clue about the realities of the music industry.

So I am sorry people the crap music you are getting now is the direct result of the death of music sales. And it will just keep getting worst because so many artists have to give up music to make a living. Live performance does not fill this gap. Ask any working musician or artist. It is a serious misunderstanding on the part of people who try to rationalize stealing music online.

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One more thought. If I come into my house and try to your family's money, our hard earned items, your are justified under the law to use deadly force to protect it.

But if you get online and steal my music, I am supposed to be ok with that because some of you excell at ratinalizing. When in fact I think most musicians wish we could come to your house and take your things in payment. Or use the same deadly force to protect our hard work and intellectual property.

Rationalize it anyway you want. You are no better than drug frenzied thieves when you steal music.

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tkoind2:

No sympathy whatsoever. he internet and file sharing is here - deal with it. Come up with a business model for the 21st century instead of the old rip-off 20th century one.

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By the way, I haven't bought a CD since the 90s and I have NEVEr used itunes. But I have a massive library of music on my pc.

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Trulymadlyfukai:

Good for you. You have stolen all of your music. Hope you are proud of yourself.

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@trulymadlyfukai: so you are saying that stealing is ok??? yes or no?

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@trulymadlyfukai: well anyway your comment doesnt matter why would we listen to a robber... it's very simple you take and watch the music from the internet for free when it should not be....THAT'S STEALING! for you it's not becuase it's a song??? Art should be Free??? ok if I take the Mona Lisa ( the original one ) at the museum and took it home with me , would you not consider that as stealing? it's an art work too? I hope the day won"t come when there will bo no music and movies being produced anymore because there's no money to fund and make them and no money for the artists who creates these. because they're all dead from starvation.

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so you are saying that stealing is ok??? yes or no?

I can't speak for trulymadlyfukai, but my answer is yes and no. Would I buy an Elvis download? No, because he is dead and he isn't getting my money even if I did - I'm not supporting him as an artist in any way by paying for his songs. Would I buy a download from an indies band trying to make it big? Perhaps, if I felt their music was worth paying for.

If you think free downloads are bad, what about places like Tsutaya that rent out CDs, but at the same time sell blank media at the counter so you can copy them. To anyone but the slowest of individuals, Tsutaya is saying, go ahead, rent our CD/DVD and copy it at home.

To my knowledge the record companies (or movie companies) never complain to Tsutaya about that because they are getting revenue directly from them. Record companies don't care about their artists, they care about their bottom line. The truth is they couldn't care less if the profits that go towards artists signed to their label suffers, as long as they can keep their hands in the money pot.

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if I take the Mona Lisa ( the original one ) at the museum and took it home with me , would you not consider that as stealing?

This is a genuinely interesting question. Of course, if you take the Mona Lisa it's stealing because it's gone; nobody can see it any more. But if you download music for free it's still there. Nothing's been physically taken. Which surely complicates the issue somewhat.

Having said which, I've never downloaded anything I didn't pay for :)

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@papasmurfinjapan: wether you like it or not Music and Movies are PRODUCTS! and you should not take them for free... so you're saying it's ok to steal from Elvis and Indie bands that only has 1 good song from their album and buy the CD from good Indie bands only??? WHEN IS STEALING BECAME RIGHT A THING DUDE!? millions of musicians pay their bills get their food from their PRODUCT! and music is their Product... yes you can take them , but the question is, is it RIGHT to take them??? In Tsutaya atleast you pay for it, but downloading is direct stealing man. I dont know what Tsutaya does with those money but it's between Tsutaya and distribution companies, but atleast the customers paid for it, if tsutaya doesnt pay the distributors and artists directly then somebody should shut them down....

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To all the English Teacher Music Thieves: Would you teach for free? If students turn up and what to be taught for free would you do it? Would it be OK for another teacher to come in your classroom and steal your lesson ideas? Just because many musicians are rich (by their own hard work, mainly), how does that give you the right to download for free? Personally I buy Cd's (still..please feel free to call me a dinosaur). Standard priced music on itunes is not of the same quality as a CD anyway, however, I understand that younger people who have grown up with (legal) downloads prefer this option.

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@trulymadlyfukai has a point. iTunes has come up with a modern, convenient, value-added, business model for downloading music. I use iTunes because of the reasons I just mentioned. It also makes me feel good that musicians get what they deserve for their work. Having said that, people are going to steal given the opportunity. Open up a store w/o a cash register or staff and put out a can with a sign "please pay for what you take" and see how much you make vs. loss. The music industry (in general) has not kept up with technological advances and they are getting ripped off. I know a lot of people who steal music and movies from the internet, they do it because 1. They can. 2. there is no pay alternative with value added content or services (sound quality, artwork, membership benefits, etc.). And last, many who steal music from the internet, rationalize their actions due to the simplistic David vs. Goliath argument from the music industry who just shout "thief" rather than trying to change their outdated biz model and offer something people are willing to pay for. IMHO.

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Before the record players music was free for thousands of years. No one can stop me humming a song.

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space_monkey.

Actually before record-players people had to buy "Sheet-Music" so that they could learn to perform the music themselves at home.

For music performances you still needed to pay at concerts, etc.

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I still buy albums on CD especially if I've never heard them before. My most recent purchases though are over 2 years old and I haven't been able to buy any new CDS lately because the local Virgin (overpriced) records closed, and MediaPlay (my favorite) closed down here about 7 years ago and it now takes nearly an hour to get to the nearest media outlet Best Buy (Circuit City also closed here too) and they don't have as much variety in music as the previous stores I mentioned used to have. I don't mind buying single songs online, but I also would like to be able to sample ALL the songs on an album before I decide if its worth the purchase of a full CD (I have to like at least 85% of the songs before I'd buy a whole album). Last albums I bought were Steve Aoki, Daft Punk's Alive and The Shins Chute's too narrow and a couple of others.

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space monkey : Humming a Song is so different with recording and renting a studio , paying sound engineers, pressing a CD to be available for thousands or millions of people who wants to listen to it, don't include the other expenses. LIVE performaces are way more expensive, Pay the Venue, promotion materials, sound guys, lights guys, and it will depend on how many people will show up to your show to get the expenses back, if no people showed up, the money will not come back. however Humming a song , you don't pay other people to HUM a song , Humming a song and Producing songs are two different things. If you want to get a free humming song, then look for a musician who hums songs free for you, but not professional musicians who sells and packaged their craft , it's like Your Dad can make a free coffee table for you, but it doesn't allow you to take home coffee tables for free from IKEA.

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If a musician puts his songs in the internet and allowed people to download for free! then it's ok, But if people take the musicians' music without their consent or without paying for it when it's obvious that they sell their music , obviously you are stealing from them and stealing is a crime, I dont care if it's a downloading generation but stealing is stealing...

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In Tsutaya atleast you pay for it, but downloading is direct stealing man.

So if I told you I go to Tsutaya on 100 rental days and rip hundreds of CDs and DVDs to my PC, it is okay, because I paid for it, right? Phew, that makes me feel so much better.

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@papasmurfinjapan : well dude you rent DVDs and CDs on Tsutaya to watch the movie and listen to the music, that's why it's "RENT", you are not suppose to rip them and put on line, especially for DVDs , Tsutaya's role is to make the music available for renting the movie or music, next step is the customer's action. And the customer's should know what is illegal and not. do you read those FBI warnings??? for home and private viewing only! If you rip those DVDs and CDs then clearly you are stealing them. look who's talking now....

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well dude you rent DVDs and CDs on Tsutaya to watch the movie and listen to the music, that's why it's "RENT", you are not suppose to rip them and put on line, especially for DVDs

@noypikantoku

"Dude", read my 03:02 post again.

Isn't it strange that copying CDs/DVDs is illegal, yet the same place that rents out the DVDs sells blank DVDs by the counter?? If you were a movie distribution company, wouldn't that bother you? It doesn't seem to bother any company that puts their products in Tsutaya. They are turning a blind-eye because no doubt the rental market is lucrative for them (not so for the artists, however).

do you read those FBI warnings???

No, does anyone?? I couldn't care less what the FBI says because I'm not American and I'm not living in America.

And who said I am file-sharing things I copy from Tsutaya? Just because I copy it doesn't mean I share it with everyone.

I certainly hope everything on your computer was purchased from a reputable vendor.

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@kyushu - "But if you download music for free it's still there" But this music and copies are for sale, wether it's still there or not.wether you can see or not, People invested on these and people created these to sell and earn money. That's why they're on TOWER RECORDS and other record shops... People can take or do downloading for free as much as they want, but let's face it, it's stealing and it's killing the professional musicians.

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@papasmurfin : Well Blank DVDs have other purposes mate, I make indie movies and do corporate productions for business , and I use those blank DVDs to make them, I dont use them for RIPPING or PIRATING OTHER PEOPLE'S MOVIE? I use those blank DVDs for my own data. I think it's clear that you don't understand the industry that's why it's ok for you to steal those. If I am a Production company and I have a brain scanner of what the people thinks and if majority of people in that store thinks the same thing as you do... then I would be bothered....but having them there in Tsutaya ? why not? Where should I get those? Drug stores?

FBI or Japanese Authority etc... they give warnings before you watch them , and those warnings have reasons why they are there, if you didn't read it, then you don't understand the law and Now I understand why you disagree with us. everything depends on the people... it's not tsutaya's fault or the blank DVDs fault , it's the people who should realize that they should not steal them.

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if majority of people in that store thinks the same thing as you do... then I would be bothered....but having them there in Tsutaya ? why not? Where should I get those? Drug stores?

Of course, a rental DVD store is the obvious place to buy blank DVDs for any purpose other than illegally copying movies.. Silly me..

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100Yen stores and Combini also sell blank DVD's and CD's. So even if Tsutaya don't sell easy to pick one up 24/7.

Doubt that those stores support pirating.

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The Eagles are holding out, also.

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AS far as I understand, making a copy of a CD for private use is OK? If I out a CD into my car navigation it starts playing and automatically copies the CD content onto the navi's harddisk for listening later.

Same with itunes. Putting a CD into the PC and Itunes adds the songs to the library.

Such kind of copying for personal use is OK.

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@eletric2004, yeah you can copy CDs,DVDs you've purchased (legally of course) and copy them for personal use as much as you want. Just not allowed to sell copies you've made or give away copies of it to others who do not own or have purchased the original for themselves.

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trulymadlyfukai at 02:35 PM JST - 17th November By the way, I haven't bought a CD since the 90s and I have NEVEr used itunes. But I have a massive library of music on my pc.

Besides telling us that you steal your music through file "sharing," you are also telling us that you've probably never really heard any of the music since PCs are not designed to play music. That's what stereos, turn tables, CD players and speakers are for.

I suppose you "watch" movies and television on your "smart" phone too.

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noypikantoku: it's not stealing. Nobody said it's not illegal, but please, understand what "stealing" means before spouting rubbish using the record industry jargon usage of the term. If you steal something from someone, you deprive them of the item. If you're not depriving them of the item, it's not stealing.

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randomenigma.

Pls, eplain WHY it is "illegal" if it is not stealing.

What is the reason that it is "illegal". Illegal only means against the Law.

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papasmurfinjapan at 06:34 PM JST - 17th November In Tsutaya atleast you pay for it, but downloading is direct stealing man. So if I told you I go to Tsutaya on 100 rental days and rip hundreds of CDs and DVDs to my PC, it is okay, because I paid for it, right? Phew, that makes me feel so much better.

Yes and no, and that's where copyright law in Japan falls down.

The rental stores buy the CD/DVD so the appropriate royalty is paid with that transaction. However, unless the rental of the CD?DVD has an at least fractional royalty attached to it, then anyone renting the CD/DVD and then ripping it to his computer and then turning around and copying it or otherwise transferring it, then you have just committed a crime in the U.S. and the E.U.

The other aspect of this is that anyone who rips a movie to their PC is just wasting his or her money as the playback quality will be so compromised (more so than music downloads) and, unless you have a PC ready monitor, one needs to have his head examined if they like watching television and movies on a PC. Back to the future when a 21" screen was HUGE!

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randomenigma at 07:07 AM JST - 18th November noypikantoku: it's not stealing. Nobody said it's not illegal, but please, understand what "stealing" means before spouting rubbish using the record industry jargon usage of the term. If you steal something from someone, you deprive them of the item. If you're not depriving them of the item, it's not stealing

I'll be kind, this time, and not call you a moron. But theft of intellectual property is not dissimilar to running away from a cab, jumping the turnstile at the station, somehow sneaking into a movie or concert or not being paid for a job you've done.

Music is not made for free. If you enjoy it, then pay the people who made it available for you to hear it.

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Who the hell cares? Listening to good music through an mp3 format is just dumb. Worse, after years of it, your ears start to think this is the only way music is meant to be heard. It ain't ...

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I think the CD is the worst most diabolical scheme of the music industry. Though convenient in it's time it's the easiest to damage. It's a huge sham by the biz. Let's convert everyone to this crap form of media and they'll be forced to keep buying the same music because their first CD got fudged up. I've only downloaded music I once had on CD or tape. I bought the license to the song. So I can download it all I want. If there is some new music I'll download it to see if I like it and if it's good I buy it from iTunes. If it sucks I delete it.

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Angus Young of AC/DC, another act with an exceptionally lucrative catalog of music, once insisted that AC/DC doesn’t make singles, “we make albums.”

For making conceptual albums some of their songs stand alone fairly well .. XD

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To all those who think downloading is ok.

You can rationalize theft all you want, but you are harming real people when you steal music.

Last year my band and I produced a CD out of our own pockets. The total cost (recording, editing, mastering, transportation and everything else) came to about $7,000 USD.

We like many indie artists paid it all out of our modest day salaries. For some of our members it was a lot of money for them in a year with layoffs and risks of unemployment. But they all did it because they love and believe in the music. And we were all hopeful that we could sell enough CDs to make some of the money back.

Within a couple weeks, the CD was well received and selling locally. But soon the CD appeared on several pirate sites. And in the course of a few weeks thousands of copies had been downloaded. On one site alone 8,000 copies.

That translates to at least enough money to recoup our costs. And should have meant somewhere in the area of $10,000 back to the band. But instead, this one site robbed us of those sales and now the CD is available all over the internet for free.

We play live, but live shows cost money. Venue costs, sound costs, marketing. When all is said and done a sell out show gives us about 5,000yen each in pocket after costs. You really expect people to live on this?

Indie artists I know, all over the world, are now faced with a choice. 1. Make music for free, something many cannot afford to continue doing. Or 2. Give up music.

In the past few years I have seen so many talented people give up making music because there was no hope of making a living at it. Instead they end up playing for fun and that brilliant work is lost to society. Others like me keep it up at great personal cost.

Why?

Because selfimportant twits world wide rationalize stealing from us. You take our hard work and hundreds of hours of work and you steal it like it is your right. And you have the moral and mental vacuousness to try to justify it. You don't care about the artists or people trying make music that you all obviously enjoy enough to listen to but are too cheap to pay for. You don't care about the impact on music and the development of new artists. You don't care about our families or our lives.

I wish, that all artists world wide would just tell all of you to get bent and boycott making music for a while until you selfish lot learn something about empathy and responsibility.

It is a shame we cannot come to your homes and take the money you owe us. In a just world the lot of you would be in jail. You hurt music and yourselves by being selfish and selfimportant downloading thieves.

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@papasmurfin : "Of course, a rental DVD store is the obvious place to buy blank DVDs for any purpose other than illegally copying movies.. Silly me.."

Ok I'll give another example, Department stores sell Knives and we use knives for cooking and other purposes, but we can also use Knives for crime and killing. So you say that all department stores supports MURDERS and CRIMES? Blank DVDs and CDs have different purposes as well, I use it to create my movies and people like you use it for Ripping DVDs, these establishments just provide it, it depends on the people how are they gonna use it for. for Right or Wrong...

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Jeffrey. Here here.

If this twit came into our home and tried to steal from us, we could blow him away and not suffer one bit from it legally. But he thinks it is ok to steal intellectual property. Too bad there isn't a way to legally demonstrate to him the risk of stealing.

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I have listened to this and similar discussions for the last 20yrs, granted most were on Anime fansubs, Resin Kit recasts(pirate copies), pirate software, etc.

Still the same arguments and excuses (bad distribution, etc).

And people wonder why things they like(Anime, good movies, etc) are on the decline. The Anime Resin kit market in japan got killed years ago.

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Zenny11. very good post.

I look at the indie labels that once were the source for most new movements in music. Those tiny labels are the ones who spent time looking for new talent in smoke filled dives all over the world. They were the ones who took finanical risks to record and promote those artists that later became famous.

But now, thanks to wholesale theft of music online, indies are rare and their budgets for taking risks so limited that they just don't support as many new artists as before. Resulting in a net loss of great new music for us to enjoy.

Music costs money people. We spend a lot on instruments and equipment. Recording and producing is very expensive. Organizing shows and all those costs are expensive. I bleed out a lot of money to pursue my art. And get very little back thanks to theft by evil people who are too selfish to pay for my music, but happy to steal it in the tens of thousands.

Ut is sad. And like other areas of creativity. Soon the variety and quality will drop off to nothing. Then only corporate music will survive. How sad is that. If Nivana or other small start bands were around today, they would live and die out in obscurity.

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Within a couple weeks, the CD was well received and selling locally. But soon the CD appeared on several pirate sites. And in the course of a few weeks thousands of copies had been downloaded. On one site alone 8,000 copies.

I understand your dilemma. However, the twit who illegally put your music on a file-sharing site just increased your potential listeners from a few thousand people that still frequent record shops to quite literally millions of people. That is 8000 extra fans that who would have probably never have heard of you if your music wasn't available on-line. If by this person's actions you suddenly became the next U2, would you still be complaining?

In the past few years I have seen so many talented people give up making music because there was no hope of making a living at it. Instead they end up playing for fun and that brilliant work is lost to society

Sorry, this has nothing to do with people copying CDs. It's because they have no idea how to market their music. Do you expect to make a living from music if you only let people hear it after they pay for it? Very few people will buy a CD of some unknown artist unless they have already had exposure to the music from somewhere. If you are an indie band and want to get noticed, the best thing to do IS put it on the internet for everyone to see/listen to. If you are good, your chances of getting noticed by someone that matters increase dramatically. If you suck, you'll be ignored and well, you shouldn't plan on making a living playing music anyway.

I understand ultimately it should be your choice to do what you do with your music - it is your business model - but I have doubts that someone making it available for free on-line would really hurt your CD sales that much - they were doing you a favor.

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Papsmurfinjpan.

Increased exposure and no increase in revenue is worth what? The old argument it increases the exposure = so what if it don't generate money to allow production new stuff.

Things don't get produced out of thin air or exposure alone.

Like I said people been trying those same arguments now for a loong time.

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I look at the indie labels that once were the source for most new movements in music. Those tiny labels are the ones who spent time looking for new talent in smoke filled dives all over the world.

They should have changed their business model to compete with the internet age. Bad management and inability to adapt to new technology is at fault here.

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papasmuefinjapan.

The same argument been used for decades for anything that did't meet some peoples approval. I asked you a direct question stil waiting for the answer.

Why do YOU think it is NOT illegal to download movies, songs, etc.

And I guess you are aware that ANY unauthorized uploading/downloading of copyrighted material in Japan is ILLEGAL.

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Increased exposure and no increase in revenue is worth what?

Well, let's say you are a struggling indie band in Tokyo, and someone decides to record your gig attended by 200 people at the local pub on their phone, then uploads it to YouTube. A week later 20,000 people around the world have seen your gig, including one scout from a major label. The next thing he is going to do is search the net to try and find some better quality demos of your music - the first place he will no doubt look is a file-sharing site, because that is where you find stuff in this day and age. If you aren't on youtube, and aren't available on-line, then you need a miracle to make it big.

Do you honestly think music scouts still spend all their time in pubs looking for the next big act? Maybe some dinosaurs do, but I wager the younger generation of scouts will spend a hell of a lot of time on youtube looking for someone with talent. They can check 100 bands in one day instead of 1. If they think you have promise, they will make their way to your next gig. If you are no good, then quit complaining, it wasn't youtube or file-sharing that destroyed your chances, it was your music - it's a brutal world out there.

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papasmurfinjapan.

Let me explain it differently.

I walk into your company and whine that the pricing and distribution of your goods is not up to scratch so me and others can walk in and grab goods freely

Heck it is fine with YOU it will increase exposure of your firm and your labour. Never mind that I will also give away copies of what you produced.

Let me know when I and others can come and pick up. ;)

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So what if thousands of thieves steal my music vs only one. I am still out the income.

Actually, I submit this as the most clueless post of the day.

You are only losing income if those thousands of people are the same people that go to the local CD shop where you sell your CDs. Of all the hundreds of millions of people on-line, what are the chances of that? You have no idea who downloaded your music. For all you know, it could have been some sheep herder in Mongolia. He was never going to buy your music because it was never available to him. Who cares you say?

What if it happened to be someone from a major record company who stumbled across your music? Then you'd care, and you'd praise the Lord for the internet that turned you from a nobody to a rock star.

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I walk into your company and whine that the pricing and distribution of your goods is not up to scratch so me and others can walk in and grab goods freely

If I have unlimited supply of the goods, it requires no extra labour nor cost to produce regardless of whether I sell 1 or 1000, the delivery method is free, and perhaps most importantly, if most/if not all of the people who take my product are those who would otherwise never have access to my product, then honestly - they are welcome. If the possibility that my product will be noticed by someone that matters leading to other more profitable ventures increases, then that is a risk I am willing to take.

I'm not telling everyone to put music of indie bands on the internet without permission, and I don't do it myself, even though I am being painted as a villain here. I'm just saying piracy will never go away, regardless of what laws are in place or how you feel about it. Instead of whining about it, adapt your business model to deal with it and take advantage of it.

8000 people dowloading your stuff on a file-sharing site? How about making your own website, and upload free samples, with the catch that they have to sign up for your newsletter. Get their address or at least city so you know where your fan base is. Offer discount CDs. If people REALLY like your music, they WILL buy it, especially if they can get it directly from you. There are plenty of ways to combat piracy other than just complaining about it.

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There's no way anyone can rationalize downloading illegally - it's wrong, and if you don't think it's wrong you are a very deluded individual. It damages the industry and the band you are stealing from.

I can understand bands saying that they'd rather release albums as one and not have the tracks available, because that is the way music has been made for the past 50 years, and the album they put together is intended to be listened to as a set. The problem is that bands have got used to having "filler", and the consumers don't want to waste their money. The bands are as much to blame for the downfall of album sales. Perhaps the concept of an album is outdated and iTunes will change how music is made forever? Who knows. As long as the price is reasonable people will buy it, because iTunes is idiot-proof and (reasonably) secure.

You can think of as many analogies to rationalize it as you like - the only reason you download is because it's free, and you know you can get away with it. The government needs to treat it like any other crime and start tracking IP addresses, and fine people.

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@Zenny11

I asked you a direct question stil waiting for the answer.

Sorry, I couldn't find your direct question to me, but I take it your question is Why do YOU think it is NOT illegal to download movies, songs, etc. ?? Correct?

I never said I think it is not illegal. It is. I even said I don't download music from indie bands. What I said in my original post is I don't have a moral problem with downloading something like Elvis because he is dead and already filthy rich. Yes I freely admit I am rationalizing, but that is just the twisted person that I am... I lose no sleep knowing that the Elvis estate didn't get it's 20 cent commission from a greatest hits CD I downloaded. They are doing fine without my contribution. I will gladly pay for a physical CD of a band that I think has worth, though.

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I am out of here, This will keep going in circles as similar discussions have done for decades.

Not going to try to point out flaws in papsmurfinjapan's arguments.

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"What if it happened to be someone from a major record company who stumbled across your music?"

Look friend. I am not interested in "what if?" I am not U2, not doing that kind of music. My music belongs in and would have always been in the independent sector. Like many, MANY artists I play in a specific Niche. In my case global ethnic music. Big labels don't suddently decide they want an Afghan instrument player for their big spring style push.

But obviously tens of thousands of people want my music as the downloads vividly demonstrate. So that money is really out of my pocket. This is true of the VAST MAJORITY of musicians who are in smaller genres and not the next U2. You again demonstrate just how clueless you are about music and musicians. WHich is probably why you can stand there and foolishly try to rationalize theft.

I have a great web site, have samples online, do many live shows and have done everything in your misguided proposal of a business plan. Most musicians do all these things. Yet, still bleeding money.

People do really like my music as the hundreds of emails I get a week demonstrate. Yet sales are not there. Meanwhile downloads are off the charts on the sites I know about. And for every one site I am aware of, there are a hundred I am not. Tens of thousands of copies have been stolen.

As for combating piracy. What do you suggest if you are so ready to solve this problem?

You want some solutions? Try these and see how happy you are.

Tax the internet to pay for intellectual theft. Tax every single internet user everywhere in the world and pay that money to people who have property downloaded on the web.

Burden the ISPs, anyone of their customers downloads any media file type is taxed for it. Unless that file comes from a specific list of validated and compliant sources.

Ban sharing sites. Replace them with registered sites where people can share valid files. Any other share site gets closed or the host allowing it to exist is heavily fined.

Teach people that intellectual property is property and stealing it is theft. Leverage that moral card everyone plays to start wars and execute people for something good for a change.

Subsidize music. If an artist can demonstrate that his or her goods are being stolen past a certain point, the government pays these artists a stippend. Then artists can be paid by taxes levied against ISPs and internet users. Government enforced.

Subject download portals to the same laws as any other form of theft. Enable the theft of 10,000 songs, go to jail for a year or pay out to the artists. Fair.

Enfocement needs to be against the means of theft since the thieves are too protected by numberes. Hit the ISPs, hit host companies, hit developers of sharing software.

Replace sharing sites with registered paid sharing tools that can be monitored.

And teach fools who think theft is ok a lesson by jailing those who get caught. No more fines. Put the dirtbags in jail to think things over for a while if they don't pay up for the songs they stole.

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"Not going to try to point out flaws in papsmurfinjapan's arguments."

Not an argument issue. It is an intellectual issue that he cannot grasp. One that requires consideration of other human beings, empathy and morality. Something shared by far too many selfish people in this world.

Modern people seem to lack the common sense needed to realize that their actions have consequences. We live in a sad, selfish, corrupt and shallow world today.

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I was talking that he said it is ok because it don't cost to make more copies as it is an "electronic" product that is sold.

Which would also include Software, games, etc and other materials like books, course materials, etc that are being distibuted/sold online.

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tkoind2,

Good post. Fair enough, you are doing your best do deal with it in your own way. I understand you not wanting people to download your music for free, but I think it is naive to presume that they would all come and buy it from you.

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Considerate is something I no longer have patience to be. When people try to rationalize or defend theft of another person's hard work and livlihood, what other reaction do you expect?

If someone stopped paying your salary because they rationalized that society would somehow tolerate that behavior or technolgy made such behavior easy, how would you feel?

My issue with you is simple. It is people who get online and try to rationalize this that are encouraging more people to steal from artists and companies who create intellectual property.

I spend 40-50hrs a week in an office before going home to pull another 30-40 hrs a week on music. I take great care with the quality of the product I produce. And I work hard to support, promote and market it. But for every product I sell, hundreds go out the door in the form of theft.

So excuse me if I am angry, intolerant of your position and aggressive in making the point that artists are suffering and wanting to fight back. But when you get online trying to say that theft is shoganai, you can bet your behind that we will fight back.

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So what if thousands of thieves steal my music vs only one. I am still out the income. It does not translate to revenue in any form. The fact that you think it does shows considerable ignorance of the music industry and the experience of indie artists.

You are just trying to rationalize immoral theft. It costs me money to make that music. I want, like any other person working, to be paid for doing so.

"They should have changed their business model to compete with the internet age. Bad management and inability to adapt to new technology is at fault here."

There is no viable business model for indies except to continue giving charity to criminals like you who steal from us. How brain damaged does someone need to be not understant that this is theft?

The internet is not the problem, it is immoral twits who rationalize stealing who are the problem.

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tkoind2

And I too sir, am losing patience with you... I have not stolen from you. I don't steal from indie bands. I don't appreciate being called a criminal. If you feel so strongly about this issue and want to fix the problem that is affecting you personally, stop wasting your time posting here and do something constructive.

I certainly hope you are 100% honest in all your dealings with your fellow man, or you are nothing more than a hypocrite.

Moderator: All readers calm down and return to the topic please. From here on, posts that do not focus on what is in the story will be removed.

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I dunno who the last hold out are --anyone going to compile a nice list?

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Demonoid.....Pirate Bay......etc etc Who needs to buy music on itunes?

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Also, try Spotify. Download Audio HijackPro and you'll never look back.

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Oh and by the way, if anyone starts throwing tantrums saying boohoo it's not fair to download music from any torrent sites, cast your minds back a few years to when record companies were ripping off consumers who had no alternative other than buying CDs over the counter in a record shop. What goes around, comes around.

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And lets not forget, in the olden golden times, people were listening to music on the radio and recording the top 10 charts with their tape recorders. Actually, there is not so much difference between radio (and nowadays net radio) and distributions of sound files by file sharing.

Well, one can say, the radio stations pay for it. Actually, the stations financed by schemes like NHK or by tax money this way do some kind of file sharing financed by the public or the tax payer.

With this in mind, it is quite a gray zone between radio (internet radio) and file sharing. Listening to radio is legal and recording for personal purpose also. But - getting the same music with the same PC from file sharing is called "stealing". I understand, it is a different distribution way. But basically, if someone is against filesharing (which might be illegal depending on the contents - sharing linux distries is often recommended), then one has to think about the position related to radio (or internet radio) broadcasting.

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I should add something. Does anyone here know the german band BAP? Approximately 30 years ago, when I was a teenager, this band from the city of cologne came to our school (they were starting to get famous) and I belonged to the student group, who was organizing the venue. I asked the group, if it was OK to record their performance on tape.

And they did not only agree, they connected one output of their mixer to my tape recorder. And they said, it is OK, if I distribute some tape copies free of charge to friends at school, as long as I send them one tape copy, too.

This band knows - the persons who have listened to the live acts and even the bootlegs will buy their studio recorded CDs.

For them this business model worked - they are still famous.

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And lets not forget, in the olden golden times, people were listening to music on the radio and recording the top 10 charts with their tape recorders

Millions of teenagers did that years ago. And millions of people have recorded movies off their televisions. Is that evil too? I mean, it cost money to make the movies etc etc..

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200 yen per Beatles song-now that's theft !! i Tunes is making pirates of us

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Who cares? I don't want to hear any more Beatles tunes. Listened to my share years ago. Now they make me sick. I also gave up buying music because I spent for an album and only 1 or 2 songs on it were worth the money. The rest being a waste of time. Sorry to the artists but if you produce 50% cr@p no one wants to buy it. They'd rather steal the 1 good song than pay for an entire album.

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Only albums I really liked were the "White" and "Brown" albums, keep their "Red" and "Blue" one.

Most of their songs were fluff but they had some good songs which were banned from being aired and earned them a bad reputation.

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@nothereillegal "cast your minds back a few years to when record companies were ripping off consumers who had no alternative other than buying CDs over the counter in a record shop."

How were they "ripping off consumers"? They set a price for their product customers can then choose to purchase or not to purchase their goods. This line of reasoning can be used for almost any business seeking profit from their work.

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people still buy music? thats a crime. think of the environment and how much carbon tax there is on a CD. yeah, thats why i choose to download for free.

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Why should musicians, etc., get royalties for their recorded performances? "In the beginning" they were only paid when they actually performed. In other words, they had to work like everyone else.

Later, recording, playback, and broadcasting devices were invented and now--with these new devices--musicians, who did nothing to create them, suddenly have a right to make money while at home asleep?? I don't think so.

It seems to me that the intellectual creativity was in the minds of the engineers who made the devices. If anyone should be getting royalties for the playback (and I doubt they should) it's Edison and his fellow engineers. The musicians, as always in the past, should be paid only for their actual performance.

Now, that's not to say they shouldn't get more for recorded sessions than for non-recorded ones just as they get more for playing in a stadium than in a lounge bar. But the payment should simply be what the musician and the one doing the recording agree the performance is worth at that moment.

It's both strange and wrong for someone like Paul McCartney to still be getting money for work he did 50 years ago. If he wants money now, he should be working now.

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Mr. Children and Southern All Stars seem to be holdouts in iTunes Japan...

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Personally I dont touch iTunes, because there is so much free stuff to be shared on the internet, and all of it FREEEE! Cheers to AC/DC and Kid Rock! Double thumbs up gentlemen! I will never use iTunes! And as for Yoko....pff! Give peace a chance? One of the lamest expressions Ive ever heard, from a money ravenous would be, if she could be! Eagerly awaiting the demise of iTunes, and if it can happen to the walkman, it can damn well happen to the ipod! Waiting with baited breath.... love and kisses. Whitey Rocks!

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