Chinese movies on Japan's wartime atrocities clear censors

Its good that a film like this is released, but...

Historians generally agree the Japanese army slaughtered at least 150,000

The figure I here is closer to 300,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing

I can't understand why ANY figures need to be debated on the level of just one city. The Japanese military was killing Chinese civilians in Jinan (Shandong Province) in 1928 -- nine years before the Marco Polo Bridge Incident, Nanjing etc. The number of deaths among civilians in Manchuria (as it was called until 1945) and China will probably never be known, but 20 million is a good figure to start from. The reason Nanjing gets so much attention is that it was Nationalist China's capital city at the time, and because the Japanese army made no effort to mask its atrocities. (Try viewing microfilms of the Asahi Shimbun from December 1937 and see how they proclaimed it as a "great victory.")

Historians 'agree' something between 10,000 and 300,000.

Chinese and Korean people should not get confused about who are to be blamed. It is not the Japanese people, but the right wing nationalist politicians who deny obvious atrocity and try to whitewash history. Like German people, ordinary Japanese people get embarrased about those dark history. They were brain-washed to worship the emporor as god, and they were hornored to die for him. They were ordered to kill the innocents by their superiors just like German nazi soldiers were. If Chinese and Koreans want to obtain sincere apology from Japanese people as urged by UN and other countries (USA, Canada, EU, UK, Holland, etc), they must draw a clear line of responsibilty between those J-politicians and ordinary Japanese people. When those politicians are outstered, so are those distorted history. Then an era of bright future and common prosperity in far east Asia will begin.

'John Rabe' will probably not show in theaters in Japan, but whoever releases it on DVD should make sure to include Japanese subtitles. Japan needs a bit more education on this event.

... but will they clear the Japanese censors?

And so the rage is maintained across generations and hatred inflamed once again. There will never be peace when those in power use history to instill hate against other nations.

headline haha lol.. how non news is that

There will never be peace until Japan's deniers of the Japanese Asian Holocaust are silenced and the Japanese government admits the guilt of its rulers, from the emperor on down.

So, jean, you're in favour of silencing people if you don't like what they say? Ok, I'll buy that. Let's start with you.

You have hereby been found "wrong" by the Japanese Truth Commission and are now forbidden from denying the Japanese government has apologised for the war and that people who deny the true extent of the conflict should be silenced.

BY ORDER OF THE COMMISSION - 25th March 2009

I would just like someone to produce a movie that concentrates on the facts and gives up some sort of numbers that can be confirmed as accurate by a recognized authority. It was so long ago now and is history and must be kept in that context. Okay show us candidly how our predecessors behaved, it might cause us to improve our behavior today and in the future. We simply don't want to go back to the debauchery of the primitive recent past. We need to be good to everyone or at least not do any harm.

The figure I here is closer to 300,000 Historians 'agree' something between 10,000 and 300,000.

300,000 is the official Chinese Govt figure which is often considered exaggerated because the population of the city weas only 250,000 at the time. The 10,000 is one of figures which appears among the reports made by the foreigners, although the term "tens of thousands" is more widely known. The Chinese government under Chiang Kai Shek used the figure of 100,000 at the Tokyo War Crimes Trials but was unable to prosecute due to a lack of evidence. Don't take anything that appears in Wikipedia as gospel, even I've made contributions to it.

I can't understand why ANY figures need to be debated on the level of >just one city. The Japanese military was killing Chinese civilians in >Jinan (Shandong Province) in 1928 -- nine years before the Marco Polo >Bridge Incident, Nanjing etc.

That's the problem when you start counting every death prior to the "incident" and it's time and place. Concievably you can end up adding every person who was killed for years and years prior. But it seems it wasn't just Chinese who were getting killed. http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/23/rare.photos/index.html

OssanAmerica: Why not go to Japan and naturalise, i'm sure they would all accept you and welcome you with open arms in your dream utopia.

Chinese movies are more believeable than Japans war movies and Japanophiles on thois site , who spout extremist right wing rubbish.

ClassWarUK- obviously you haven't studied the history of China after the CCP took over. Nothing emanating from the CCP is "believable". If you don't like Japan or Japanophiles perhaps you might consider posting somwhere other than a site called "Japan Today"?

The fact is that two Chinese films, one a joint Chinese-German one have cleared censorship for viewing in Japan despite the obvious contents. The question one should consider is what are the odds that a foreign film about Tianamen Square or the opression of Tibet would clear the censors in China, when even hollywood garbage can't?

"Don't take anything that appears in Wikipedia as gospel."

Are you serious?

Imagine there won't be too many theatres here showing either of these flicks, as they'll cave into the threat of harrassment from the nutters in the black trucks. Which is the whole point -- a way too vocal and powerful minority here refuses to accept Japan's past, and Japan, as a whole, suffers as a result.

China will clear anything anti-Japanese, but would they clear anything that shines a light on their own atrocities? I do not think so......

maybe everyone should see the movie before making judgements on its content:

Director Lu Chuan: Over three years and after extensive research, I underwent a tremendous shift in perspective, so the final version is radically different in storyline and point of view. At first, I concentrated on representing the Rape of Nanking, but gradually I wanted to explore the laws of nature governing war and how they give rise to massacres. ... It is not about how frightening the Japanese were, but how frightening human nature can be.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/features/interviews_profiles/e3ic4a58d9493b16774646ac957b2cf0185

It is not about how frightening the Japanese were, but how frightening human nature can be.

Yes, I think this is a sentiment that is/was badly needed. Something to move beyond the apologizing/not apologizing... accepting/not accepting business that is so difficult to sort out for many reasons.

It's also a gracious point of view that can only come out of the victim side for it to carry much weight.

I hope this is the kind of attitude that will really open the doors for the two countries.

OssanAmerica: Unlike you, i reside in Japan, so i am more qualified to see what'S going on here. Japan killed more than the Nazi's. Japan has to come to terms with its evil past. I have heard the film John Gabe has a famous Hapanese actor in it, so it may be shown in Japan. I hope so Japanese and their Japanophile fans , need to see the extent of the brutality of the Japanese duting WWII.

The only thing I'll say about the dispute between China and Japan is that history certainly does repeat itself. Do you ever think we'll be free of atrocities, documentation and arguments? Maybe not in our lifetimes.

"The fact is that two Chinese films, one a joint Chinese-German one have cleared censorship for viewing in Japan despite the obvious contents. The question one should consider is what are the odds that a foreign film about Tianamen Square or the opression of Tibet would clear the censors in China, when even hollywood garbage can't?"

Haha good one.

ClassWarUK

"Unlike you, i reside in Japan, so i am more qualified to see what'S going on here. Japan killed more than the Nazi's."

. .

Is that true?

For me, the poignant history of the past brought by war should serve as a lesson for this generation ,so that war between nations be avoided.

PEACE

It is interesting that know one seems to know how many Chinese,Americans, Australians, Indonesians, Malayans, Indo-Chinese, Papua New Guineans, New Zealanders or British were killed by the Japanese or how many Britains, Americans, French, Greek, Yugoslavs, Dutch, Belgiums, Polish, Russians and so on were killed by the Nazi's, but everyday, 365 days a year, year after year for fifty four years now the Jews tell us six million Jews died.

My point is that estimates vary between 50 million and 100 million died which includes no doubt many who would have died of natural causes. About 4.5 million Chinese die each year from natural causes so over the period of war that raged for nine years from 1936 to 1945, probably 40 million Chinese died from natural causes.

Some Armies were more brutal than in their person to person treatment of other humans, while all forces exacted heavy tolls by largely indiscriminate bombing and artillery.

Fortunately the World War is 55 years into the past. The world has been able to avoid such a major conflict for all that time and there is no realistic reason that we need to expect it will occur again, possibly ever.

Most movies are made for entertainment and to make money. Few are ever made just to inform people accurately of past events.

Fortunately, I don't know what my ancestors did through time, possibly some horrific things, nor do I know the precise nature of my genealogical background. What I do know is that I am very grateful they procreated whether by mutual agreement, lust or maybe in some instances force, because of that long line of procreation activities I was fortunate to have been conceived, born, and lived, plus in a time, post WW11 and with the best (rock) music ever.

Just be grateful that the war ended the way it did and virtually everyone has forgiven the wrongs of others and just got on with their lives. The world is a much better place today than it has ever been!

KingRat: Japan did indeed kill far more than the Germans ever did, though there is no way of proving the actual number. Keep in mind that this number is taken over a period of at least 30 years (on the Korean Peninsula), though most of it was preceding and during WWII. Unbeknownst to many Japanese and foreigners alike Japan invaded quite a number of SE and West-Asian countries, and slaughtered thousands even in Viet Nam, Burma (now Myanmar, of course), Thailand, and India. Total estimates are in the millions, though again, it can't be verified.

From a guy who takes his handle from Clavell's novel about American POWs in Japanese camps, this shouldn't be such a surprise, but I guess we're talking about civilians and not the even the POWs (Burma/Thai Death Railway, Death March in Indonesia, etc., to name but a few).

Anyway, back to the topic at hand:

Ossan: "The fact is that two Chinese films, one a joint Chinese-German one have cleared censorship for viewing in Japan despite the obvious contents."

Really? I was under the impression from the article that these movies cleared the censors in BEIJING, not in Japan. Will they be shown in Japan, though?

OssanAmerica: Unlike you, i reside in Japan, so i am more qualified to >see what'S going on here.

I don't believe a word of the above. The very nature and content of your post betrays this. I bet I've spent more years in Japan than you've been alive.

Japan killed more than the Nazi's. Japan has >to come to terms with its >evil past.

No that's a lie also. The Soviet casualtiesc at the hands of the Germans alone is more than double the numbers for Chinese casuialties at the hands of the Japanese.

http://bss.sfsu.edu/tygiel/Hist427/texts/wwiicasualty.htm

Really? I was under the impression from the article that these movies >cleared the censors in BEIJING, not in Japan. Will they be shown in >Japan, though?

smith you're right I misread the article. Although that begs the question of why bother even considering censoring any film of this sort in China. Of course it's going to clear. When that silly Geisha movie came out (a US production) China censored it because it showed the Japanese in a "human light". Wow....

Japan did indeed kill far more than the Germans ever did, though there >no way of proving the actual number.

A load of garbage smith.

Keep in mind that this number is taken over a period of at least 30 >years (on the Korean Peninsula), though most of it was preceding and >during WWII.

How far back did you count? 300 AD?

Unbeknownst to many Japanese and foreigners alike Japan invaded quite a >number of SE and West-Asian countries, and slaughtered thousands even in >Viet Nam, Burma (now Myanmar, of course), Thailand, and India. Total >estimates are in the millions, though again, it can't be verified.

Well known to many Japanese and non-biased foreigners alike, in the SE Asian nations that Imperial Japan invaded from 1941-1945, there were indeed many civilian casualties as collateral damage. There were also killings involving locals who collaborated with the Allies. But there is no record of "slaughtering" as in a genocidal program. One may ask why all of South East ASia is on such good terms with Japan since WWII ended.

ossan:

One may ask why all of South East ASia is on such good terms with Japan since WWII ended.

Money, dear. Money! The same reason why Fillipinos with a drop of Japanese blood are scrambling to claim Japanese citizenship. If or when these poor countries develop into richer nations, I bet their attitudes will change. The imperial army spilt a lot of blood in the Phillipines. And as for there being 'no record of slaughtering', I think you need to come back to planet Earth. Or perhaps you think this movie was based on a fairy tale.

It'll be interesting to see how viewers in the west react to this movie. In Japan, I won't be holding my breath. But surprise me, Japan.

And so the rage is maintained across generations and hatred inflamed once > again.

True but you're not vicim.

pukeyt

If or when these poor countries develop into richer nations, I bet >their attitudes will change

I bet you you're wrong. People aren't as perpetually filled with hate as you seem to believe. And Money is not a valid reason to be on good terms with any country? What would China think of that?

Also read what I wrote: "there is no record of "slaughtering" as in a genocidal program"

Moderator: Posts that do not refer to the movies will be removed.

I especially hope the John Gabe film is shown in Japan, though i expect right wingers and Japanophiles to try to stop screenings. You see when you love a country so much you are blind and oh so very sad, shame really.

"Unlike you, i reside in Japan, so i am more qualified to see what'S >going on here. Japan killed more than the Nazi's." Is that true?

No that's not true. http://bss.sfsu.edu/tygiel/Hist427/texts/wwiicasualty.htm

I especially hope the John Gabe film is shown in Japan, though i expect >right wingers and Japanophiles to try to stop screenings. You see when >you love a country so much you are blind and oh so very sad, shame >really.

The article talks about two films passing censorship in China. It has nothing to do with screenings in Japan and obviously nobody has tried to stop it. Is really sad when you hate a country so much that you have to comment on something that's not even in the article.

I think it's a good thing that atrocities should be remembered and passed on to the next generations so grudges will never stop. This includes those committed at home too by own people.

BrightEyes at 11:01 PM JST - 28th March Wow. All of that in the same thread. Introductory Psych texts could use these posts as an example of Freudian >projection. Pretty sad indeed.

Do you have any comment concerning this article? If not your post is OT.

Two films have been produced primarily for the Chinese market, they passed the censor of that country because they obviously up held the Chinese propaganda of the last 65 years. Which of the two countries is telling the truth about what happened? Neither of them. This is not a yes or no situation, & just because Japan isn’t the way you would like it to be & the people don’t fall on their knees to say sorry to you personally doesn’t mean they are hiding from anything. Un like China Japan has moved into the 20th century & the 21st. century & however they see their history they do see it as history. Not today’s headline (again). It is China that has failed to move forward, not Japan, China has kept it’s history alive in an effort to control & unify it’s people.

Anybody that believe anything that comes out of China really needs their head examining.

The question one should consider is what are the odds that a foreign film about Tianamen Square or the opression of Tibet would clear the censors in China

Yes, China needs to address these issues, but these issues are independent to the Naking "incident" I was an exchange student in Japan and I will be honest- the history text books were watered down compared to the ones I read in my country (New Zealand). BOTH countries need to stop pointing fingers at each other and being defensive. As for the Chinese movie version- I hear it will have a Japanese perspective (played by a Japanese actor)so audiences an empathize on both sides.

Anybody that believe anything that comes out of China really needs their head examining.

After reading that arrogant sentence- I completely disregarded everything else you said earlier on.

Remember this is a movie. If you want the facts. The internet is your key to finding more true information about what happened.

Search the facts. And decide for yourself