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Veganism has some stylish new spokespeople: Celebs

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Get any fad or trend and you'll always get some celebrities who are into. Does this make it any more valid? Not really. If you wanna do it, go for it, but saying "Some famous guy/gal are doing it so it must be good" makes no sense: I'll show you zillions of other, more famous people who are not doing it.

6 ( +7 / -2 )

Save the bones for Henry Jones, 'cause Henry don't eat no meat...

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Hitler was a vegan. Enough said.

-5 ( +7 / -12 )

Hitler was a vegan. Enough said.

Yeah, Jesus was a vegan. And Pol Pot was a meat-eater. Your point is?

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

Christians and vegans are not to be trusted. Pol Pot a meat eater? Your point is?

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

Readers, please focus your comments on what is in the story.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Nothing like a group of pretentious limousine borgeosie (sp) congratulating themselves on how clever they are. There's nothing wrong with eating a variety of healthful foods, and of course raw foods are part of that. But, humans have emerged at the top of the food chain for a reason. Not to mention, it seems that producing wholly vegan food is very wasteful and bad for the environment.

Making cheese out of cashew nuts? Please. Leave them as is, throw on a bit of salt, and have them with a cold beer while watching a football game.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

it seems that producing wholly vegan food is very wasteful and bad for the environment.

How do you reckon that? Plant stuff in a field, harvest it and eat it, vs plant stuff in a field, harvest it, process it, spike it with growth hormones and antibiotics, feed it to animals kept in crowded conditions where they produce lots of methane gas (greenhouse effect) and waste products (pollution), kill and process the animals and eat them?

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

I was thinking the whole vegan/organic movement. It's self indulgent and inefficient. Most of the world can't afford to eat this way. If all farms went organic, millions would starve. Plus, would vegans use organic waste only (such as animal poo) as an alternative to chemicals for crops? Or use no fertilizers at all? Both options reduce the crop yield. It is wasteful use of valuable agricultural land.

Comparing to meat production is of course, comparing apples to oranges (or steaks to oranges).

0 ( +4 / -4 )

DS - You're talking about organic, not vegan. Totally different topic. In terms of being wasteful and bad for the environment, meat production and the use of chemical fertilisers/herbicides/insecticides wins hands-down.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

"vegan = tribal slang for the village moron who can't hunt or fish"

sorry, couldn't help myself. it's rather popular on forums

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Give up meat?

No, thanks. I like me a good burger.

Have fun with your lentils and tofu....

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Zybster: "Does this make it any more valid? Not really."

While I agree that celebs doing something doesn't make it any more 'proper' than it was before they did it, the fact remains that them doing it makes it more popular. Heck, the article, whether it has a point or not, would not exist without it.

And personally I can't understand why anyone but the big beef companies would complain about veganism/vegetarianism, let alone put Hitler into the equation -- if people don't want to consume meat, or just don't want to for a single meal, who are you to criticise?

What I DO wish is that vegetarianism were more common in Japan. It's extremely difficult to avoid products with meat (extract) in them, or go to a restaurant that serves a variety of vegetarian fare. I've never met a Japanese vegetarian in my life, which is kind of ironic given the fact that eating meat was considered to be extremely low until the recent past (was it in the Meiji or Showa era that meat eating began large scale?). Even 'vegetable' soup bases or other products contain meat extract!

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Raw food is actually really delicious. Once you start this diet, you sort of become addicted to it. I still eat meat twice a week, and fish once a week but the rest of my diet is raw foods. I found that it makes you feel much better and your skin becomes more radiant. After a while, you can't even eat junk food anymore because your body craves natural foods. Tofu, unless it is made of organic beans, is not really good for you. So, my piece of advice, just keep your basic diet but put a lot more raw food into it.

I never believed in vegetarism because they cook the foods and all the nutrients will go with it.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Readers, Hitler is not relevant to this discussion.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

No vegan or strict vegetarian here....since I have eaten beef in a few occasions due to my painful blood problems and extreme blood cells deficiency、残念だけど。

But that said I have to admit that I'm an avid FAN of raw vegetables and eggs. I eat around 5~8 eegs everyday!!! That's right, my love for eggs is amazing...I wouldn't eat any meat if I could, I have everything I need in EGGS. (^_^)

Also, I eat tomatoes a LOT. Broccoli is another of my favorites. 美味しい~

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

BlueWitch, me too! I eat about a dozen eggs a day. Per weight, and contrary to what many believe, eggs are one of the most nutritional foods out there, . And as for high cholesterol, I'm not even close (^^)y

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

5-8 eggs that is a lot of cholesterol and way over the RDA.

We don't eat much Beef here, most is Chicken, Pork & Fish. For each dish we also need a good size portion of Carbon(Potato, Rice, Bread, etc) and an equal portion of Veggies, etc.

Pure vegetarian foods are also served atleast 2-3 times a week and we consume a fair amount of dairy too. Can't imagine my Kitchen without Potato(not the fried style), Onion, Mushroom, etc.

I think many "celebrities" are doing it in public as it is another vessel for them to stay in the limelight with a good image. Quiet a few admitted as such, ditto for charities, etc.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

so, some humans are vegans, others are fish-eaters (me!). however, when i introduce myself, i don't brag like a religious nutcase that i love fresh tasty fish. i just hope that the vegans bring up their kids as normal human omnivores, otherwise they are going to cripple their development in more ways than one (brain, body, and soul).

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@100million n U won?

Christians and vegans are not to be trusted.

I wonder what YuriOtani would say about this....yikes I came from different blood-lines of wise women so, it doesn't hurt me though..

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

BlueWitch: You need vitamin B12. The best source of B12 is clams and other mollusks. There is nearly 85 mcg of B12 in just 3 ounces of clams. The next best source is liver, with 47 mcg in a slice. Salmon and trout have 5 mcg in three ounces.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Foxie.

Agree, all about balance. Eat to much of one thing and the balance is off and there will be a penalty for it down the road.

But to each their own, yes, vegans and vegetarians can have a healthy and good diet but might need to add some supplements. Same for people that emphasise meat, etc too much.

We are Omnivores as being so allowed us to survive on a variety of diets when fruits/veggies or meat were in short supply. But than we lived a different lifestyle and with different nutritional demands back than.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@smithinjapan

Zybster: "Does this make it any more valid? Not really."

While I agree that celebs doing something doesn't make it any more 'proper' than it was before they did it, the fact remains that them doing it makes it more popular. Heck, the article, whether it has a point or not, would not exist without it.

And personally I can't understand why anyone but the big beef companies would complain about veganism/vegetarianism -- if people don't want to consume meat, or just don't want to for a single meal, who are you to criticise?

What I DO wish is that vegetarianism were more common in Japan. It's extremely difficult to avoid products with meat (extract) in them, or go to a restaurant that serves a variety of vegetarian fare. I've never met a Japanese vegetarian in my life, which is kind of ironic given the fact that eating meat was considered to be extremely low until the recent past (was it in the Meiji or Showa era that meat eating began large scale?). Even 'vegetable' soup bases or other products contain meat extract!

Excellent post, my friend...

Unfotunately, Japan is NOT vegan/vegetarian friendly. Almost EVERYTHING has meat/fish extract on it. There was a time I tried the Strict-Vegetarian way but I couldn't. I lost. The very few "Vegetarian" products found here are nowhere near healthy enough to consider buying. I get more nutrients eating the soles of my shoes.

That said, I eat eggs and feel all the energy I need. Ironically, I don't find TOFU very attractive...ever since I was a child. But let me tell you, エリンギ tastes delicious with garlic sauce. Interesting enough, the Eringi mushroom can easily pass as lean meat. Really tasty.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

I don't see the need for a vegetarian in Japan to buy 'vegetarian' products (whatever they are...) Why not just buy stuff that isn't meat, and eat it?

Blue, if you like eringi, try putting them whole in oden. Absolutely wonderful. Don't cut them, or even trim the bottoms - if you do, the good taste will leak out into the soup. They're also great sliced lengthways, laid in a dish with asparagus tips, drizzled with olive oil and a shaking of your favourite herb salt, covered and baked until the asparagus is just tender but still a bit crunchy. Don't waste the juices - use a piece of bread to soak them up. Yum.

2 ( +3 / -2 )

@Gurukun

Welcome to the Eggworld then! LOL I have become an artist when it comes to omelette...there are so MANY ways you can eat your omelette and all the things you can add... My husband makes an omelette so awesome it puts mine to shame. His feels like rare on the inside, but not. NOT rare...just almost.

@It"ME

Dear..the old "EGGS are Bad Cholesterol" myth have been laid to rest already by university studies. The only cholesterol eggs contain is the GOOD one. I found out doing research. Even if they had the bad one, I STILL prefer them over pork. Lean beef and chicken would be healthier I think. But I rarely eat meat at all, so I'll stick with the round jewels. (^_^)

@Foxie

I know, honey...but I happen to be allergic to molluks/clams like if it wasn't bad already with my blood problems. I eat Salmon/trout casually but sometimes is not enoug. Liver is offlimits, I tried 2 times to eat it and it wouldn't get pass my throat, the taste and smell makes me gag...Grrr.. Usually I get my B12 from injections when its clearly that I need it.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Blue.

I can send you a recipe for Liver & Onions that won't have any smell(little trick to that one on the preparation). Still keeping my Egg intake at current level, even good/healthy stuff can turn into a poison when over-indulged.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I have stated in my previous posts that I am NOT vegan or strict vegetarian although I eat a great deal of raw foods. Here at home, my husband loves meat/fish/pork and I gladly cook his meat dishes with all my love. My children eat meat too but I tend to feed them more chicken and raw vegetables with basmati rice. Like smithinjapan, I despise reading posts moking or degrading vegans/vegetarians. It's shameless really. It's like Religious fanatics telling Pagans to burn in hell or whatever. No shame at all! You eat your meat and I'll have my eggs. If everyone in the world were the same, aww we all die of boredom.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@cleo

I don't see the need for a vegetarian in Japan to buy 'vegetarian' products (whatever they are...) Why not just buy stuff that isn't meat, and eat it?

Blue, if you like eringi, try putting them whole in oden. Absolutely wonderful. Don't cut them, or even trim the bottoms - if you do, the good taste will leak out into the soup. They're also great sliced lengthways, laid in a dish with asparagus tips, drizzled with olive oil and a shaking of your favourite herb salt, covered and baked until the asparagus is just tender but still a bit crunchy. Don't waste the juices - use a piece of bread to soak them up. Yum.

Oh Cleo honey, SAY- NO- MORE..lol I'm gonna go take the eringi I have in the fridge and have it ready for tonight. Mr.Blue loves his eringi sliced lenghtways too!! The herb salt is a must in my kitchen...I have this huge glass container where my husband stores the home-made herbsalt right next to the oven. Besides the eringi, there are 3 more type of mushrooms in there so, mushrooms and eggs are bought in excess in this house.. (^_^)

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@It"S ME

Blue.

I can send you a recipe for Liver & Onions that won't have any smell(little trick to that one on the preparation). Still keeping my Egg intake at current level, even good/healthy stuff can turn into a poison when over-indulged.

Oh feel free please. Just wonder how...everytime I post my email, it dissapears misteriously. (-_-);;;; The Egg intake might be different for everyone, I think.. I have been eating like this for many years and not once I have suffer an Egg-overdose. If I ever do, the hospital staff would be very surprised, maybe. Can you imagine:

Doctor: Ohayou Gozaimasu, what seems to be your problem today?

Me: Eeetooo I think I'm poisoned by eating too many eggs...perhaps an egg-overdose?

Doctor: Are you serious? What "kind" of Eggs are you reffering to? Ckicken Eggs?

Me: What? Are there other "kinds"?

Doctor: You wouldn't believe what I see here everyday..

Me: S#it...

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

BW.

Will post the recipe on the forum, need to do some translations 1st. Will be up tonight. Check over that tonight, no need to send details.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Foxie: I am also an avid fan of raw vegetables and often munch on a carrot or cucumber as I walk to work (if I had no time for a whole breakfast). Some of the looks I get when people see me eating a raw carrot are pretty priceless! I'll even eat goya raw from time to time, though I usually slice it pretty thin and put it in salad. And you are 100% correct that cooking them in any form results in a loss of at least some of the nutrients. Steaming preserves most, but not all. So I like to steam broccoli and other veggies with fresh garlic sometimes.

cleo: "I don't see the need for a vegetarian in Japan to buy 'vegetarian' products (whatever they are...) Why not just buy stuff that isn't meat, and eat it?"

Granted, you're PROBABLY not going to find any meat in fresh vegetables, but with other food stuffs it is hard to find some that don't contain meat or fish extract, even the aforementioned vegetable soup stock. In some other nations everything is pretty clearly marked (ex. "No MSG", "gluten-free", "no meat products", etc.), but you really have to scan the backs of some products here carefully if you want to avoid meat completely, and try asking a restaurant if they use separate knives when preparing food with no meat!

2 ( +3 / -1 )

It is glad to hear that many celebrities became vegans. Although they are rich and famous, they have compassion for suffering of animals. However if they are still wearing walking shoes and using leather bags, they are not 100% vegans. They can be called as semi vegans.

Vegans are nothing new in Asia. Mahayana Buddhist monks of China, Korea and Japan are vegans for hundreds and hundreds of years. India which was a pioneer of Buddhism have to be vegans according the customs. In Phuket of Thai, Thai Chinese has vegetable and fire walking festival for cleansing and purifying their mind and body. However it is only for ten days.

If majority of Chinese, Japanese, Americans, Europeans and Australians will become vegans like Indians, it will save many loving creatures.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

if you want to get cancer, go vegan. If you don't have any fat in your diet, you will absolutely get cancer.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

ironchef.

Puzzled how will everybody going Vegan save Animals. Fewer will get born as there is no longer a viable ecological system to support large masses of wild animal. Farm bred animals & Petswon't be able to survive in the wild, etc.

Predators will also be in short supply as will be stable traditional foods and the wild animals will fight with humans for available resources. example, more deer, bear, etc attacks on Humans and their crops.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

My post changed. I addressed something else to ironchef. Curent post is for zenpun.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

ironchef -

if you want to get cancer, go vegan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5698784/Being-a-vegetarian-can-cut-your-risk-of-cancer-by-a-half-claim-scientists.html

Researchers who studied tens of thousands of Britons over more than a decade found that vegetarians were 12 per cent less likely to contract cancer than their meat eating counterparts.

You're confused if you think cutting meat out of the diet equals cutting fats out. It doesn't.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10687887

the high IGF-I activity associated with heavy ingestion of animal products may be largely responsible for the epidemic of 'Western' cancers

It's ME -

What are you talking about? What has veganism got to do with pets surviving in the wild? And how exactly does it lead to deer attacking humans? Consider - fewer 'farm' (=factory) animals means fewer animals suffering. It isn't rocket science.

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Become a vegan and you can dine like the hated "One Percent" ? Is that the gist here?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

zenpun talked about more animals being saved. Didn't know that not being born is being saved. I know this is your pet-topic here.

But too many vegans got an utopical image of all animals living free and wild once we stop eating them.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Didn't know that not being born is being saved. I know this is your pet-topic here.

But too many vegans got an utopical image of all animals living free and wild once we stop eating them.

According Charles Darwin theory, The forefathers of humans were vegans for thousand of years.

According the ecological system, Flying insect will be eaten by Frog. Frog will be eaten by snake. Snake will be eaten by Falcon. Sick and frail falcon will be eaten by flying insect. They have survived sustain-ably without human intervention. They are not only balancing the wild life, they are sustaining the ecology , nature and fine weather. Interestingly, those creatures survived for thousand of years before the stone age of human evolution.

Human are born and bred as vegans by nature. However they started bullying and slaughtering the very low IQ species with their efficient weapon during the stone age. It is called as high IQ.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

I work in the tofu and soybeans industry, I do this because I have a passion for this. I do love Japan. People tend to laugh but, anyhow, here it goes.

I think it is all right to be vegan as long as they do not condemn other people's eating habits. Being vegan is all right. Therefore visa versa. Right now the rain forest in the Amazon is being cut to grow GMO soybeans for cattle to eat in Europe. Good work EU! other markets GMO soybeans are exported to is China, Japan. This is wrong in my view. This is off topic. But countries such as USA, Brazil, China need to rething their GMO stance. Japan too but in Japan there is a much bigger critical awareness. The battle of TPP is that USA wants to implement USA GMO laws while Japan is not sure. I say to Japan, Do not listen to USA. Do not implement GMO laws like USA ,Brazil, China. Europe, India, NZ are good guidelines to follow. Respect the earth!! TPP. I read comments about subsidies. Subsidies are not a good way to export agricultural products. This means USA too who produce too much corn!

EU subsidise 34%,

A large part of these subsidies are export subsidies: they help to sell on the world market superfluous agricultural products which cannot be sold on domestic markets. This artificial price reduction depresses world market prices, thus making agriculture in many other parts of the world unprofitable. Even the conservative calculations of the World Bank assume that agricultural subsidies in the rich nations deprive farmers in poor countries of a market of at least 30 billion dollars. At the same time, the World Bank states that – as absurd as this sounds at first – if the subsidies were to be abolished this would benefit the agricultural sector to the tune of 250 billion dollars, albeit with a more just distribution: countries with low and medium incomes would profit the most at around 150 billion dollars.

http://www.we-feed-the-world.at/en/facts4.htm

Whaling. This is a no brainer. Hunting wild animals for food without depleting the stock or ruining the natural habitat is the most environmental form of food production for humans. The natural habitat remains the same no chemicals is needed. Whaling is highgly energy efficient. Whales are an organic mobile source of protein. These anti whalers especially Australians and Dutch need to vent their anger at beef farmers who ruin the natural habitat and import GMO food from Brazil to raise their cattle. According to WHO report the agriculture can feed 13 billion people. Yet millions die each year and the number is increasing!!!! If one were smart enough we could feed every child, woman and man on this planet but do not , we need to start thinking that for every child that dies due to starvation it is murder. Global responsibilities.
0 ( +1 / -1 )

USA, Brazil etc grow GMO, Europe, Japan do not allow it but imports it. So a bit of a hypocracy there from EU and Japan. But in USA there are no labeling laws where as in EU and Japan there are. GMO companies say it is to save the world! It is absolute bollox!! You do not need GMO to feed the world, you need more natural organic food and better distribution of wealth!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Meh.. I think true vegans don't wear leather shoes or carry leather bags, those animals died for the sake of their goods also.. unless they have NO leather object weather it be shoes, bags, lounges etc then they would be really practicing what they preach. So far the vegans I've met don't mind wearing leather shoes and carrying leather bags..

0 ( +1 / -1 )

How do you reckon that? Plant stuff in a field, harvest it and eat it, vs plant stuff in a field, harvest it, process it, spike it with growth hormones and antibiotics, feed it to animals kept in crowded conditions where they produce lots of methane gas (greenhouse effect) and waste products (pollution), kill and process the animals and eat them?

What? plant stuff in a field? no one should be planting ANYTHING except vegetables in fields. NO corn, no soy and especially no wheat. Cows don't eat grains by default and humans don't eat grains by default either.

Cattle, should roaming freely eating "grass" , pastured animals are much much better for the environment and the nutrient rich, healthy meat and fats they can provide for human substance is immense. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIbXU5iR2P4 Joel Salatin. This guy has it down, he calls himself a "grass farmer" everything revolves around the grass. The grass grows, the cattle eat it, they poop, 4 days later the hens come along and eat the larvae in the dung, the dung fertilizers the grass, it grows back stronger and lusher -hence he has improved the grass, then the cycle begins again.

sadly in the modern commercial world we have lost sight of food so badly that people turn to Vegetarianism and even Veganism without fully knowing all the facts about what the human body thrives on. Industrialized animal farming is an abomination and a disgrace, I wont argue with any Vegan on that count, but eating animal products is what the human body has evolved to run on (over millions of years) and runs most efficiently on. You are clouding issues. CAFO meat no way, grass fed permaculture meats? hell yes. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

As for cancer studies, they are horrendously misleading, pizza sausage counts as a meat to medical researchers, so its not just the meat causing cancer, its all the processed garbage the "meat eaters" are consuming. Someone eating grassfed natural meats is not in the same ballpark as someone on the standard western industrialized diet.

Vegans are misguided. but at least they are trying to do something about the busted system and improve food quality.

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@ Dotobock - with you all the way, esp. redistribution of wealth/food- there is enough for everyone, it's just all in the wrong places.

Have to disagree on whaling though- whales are a very good source of mercury, cadmium & other heavy metals- as are a lot of fish. I won't touch anything from the sea.

I have a Chinese friend who grew up vegan in China & Hong Kong - no problem, lots of Buddhist eateries around, even veggie oyster sauce for her bok choy. As Cleo says, she doesn't buy "vegetarian food" - she just buys veggies, tofu, rice, noodles. I once made veggie lasagna for her & she kept saying "Oh no, look at all the oil" (those eggplant soak it up!) - never invited her back ;) She could show those celebs a thing or two though, for 1/10 the price!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Pass the ribs, steak, bacon, ham, pork, lamb, venison, chicken, turkey, fish, scallops, oysters, lobster etc over here then will you please ?

The more vegans the better !

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I agree with Foxie 100% give me some raw mangoes! Some raw papayas! Some raw sugar cane! Some raw jicama! Raw meat?? No thanks maybe just sashimi, but sorry I can not become a so called vegan and one of my best friends here in Tokyo is a hard core Hindu, they are even more strict that these vegans!!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Many of the comments by the anti-veg*n posters here are typical of those I have to encounter now and again whenever I mention the V word. I just have to say I'm vegan and then others will get all defensive, as if they've had a carrot stuck up their backsides (just look at all the negative ratings). I don't care what others eat and have never lectured others, but some people are just plain rude. If you can't become vegetarian, then don't. Never asked you to become one and I've never met another vegetarian who preaches. I've seen more preaching from Christians. Just as smokers should not give up the fags if they love them.

Janetto:

I have a Chinese friend who grew up vegan in China & Hong Kong - no problem, lots of Buddhist eateries around, even veggie oyster sauce for her bok choy

I wish some of those HK eateries existed in Japan. The Taiwanese are pretty veggie-friendly too. The Japanese have little concept of vegetarianism nowadays, but unlike the Chinese in general , they are willing to try dishes without meat.

To whoever equated non-fat with veganism:

Boy, you're a sitting duck for PETA. You're going to get plenty of fats (and good fats, may I say) from avocados, nuts, oils, etc. It ain't just about lettuce leafs and carrot sticks.

Anyway, good to see some non-vegetarians respectful of others, like bluewitch. My own relatives have become more understanding - I get delicious home-made vegetarian nira gyoza. But it's so ironic that most people who criticize my vegan lifestyle (including some relatives) are overweight, have diabetes, have had heart bypass surgery and/or smoke.

anglootaku:

By the way, no leather shoes or wallets here, although I've always wondered why my Hindu friends never objected to leather. So you've met many vegans then? Sure. I believe ya!

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Cattle, should roaming freely eating "grass" , pastured animals are much much better for the environment and the nutrient rich, healthy meat and fats they can provide for human substance is immense.

Lovely. You're going to feed 7 billion with environmentally-friendly, grass-fed meat? Good luck with that. Try asking yourself why all the factory farms and feedlots don't switch to raising their animals naturally.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Athlete.

FYI, many primates also eat Meat and enjoy it.

Humans are Omnivores there is no going around that, just any one with a biology degree. Interesting fact is the internal organ layout of a pig is the same as a humans, ditto for organ size.

I have nothing against Vegans, just the vocal ones(I liken them to the JW, etc of Christians). Some of their arguments make as much sense.

If you don't want to eat meat for religious, etc reasons than that is fine. Said that Vegan is still a fairly new Ideology and I think we will see splits happening in the community(some are already visible(ethic vs dietarian, etc).

If you look at our little dirt-ball good arable land is somewhat rare and countries that have good arable land tend to be more Vegan orientated than others.

Anyone off to make some Tofu-Hamburger for lunch, we are having pork-cutlets in gravy for supper.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

If everybody would cut their meat consumption, we could all eat grass-fed meat and it would be better for the environment.

-1 ( +1 / -1 )

If you don't want to eat meat for religious, etc reasons than that is fine. Said that Vegan is still a fairly new Ideology and I think we will see splits happening in the community(some are already visible(ethic vs dietarian, etc).

Many celebrities became Vegans it is not because they are forced to do it. In the west, vegans may be new ideology! In the east, Vegans have been existed for many thousand of years. When Beatles went to India in 1960s, they have to follow Hindu tradition for having meals. According that article, celebrities like having vegetables instead of meat. They are not pointing guns to anyone to follow their choice. However it is a minestrone of something have to change for sustainability.

Chinese love eat pork! Japanese like fish! Westerners like beef! If everyone in the world does not stop eating meat, it can not sustainable for that particular stocks! Some have to be vegans for sake of environment , sustainability and compassion!

If you look at our little dirt-ball good arable land is somewhat rare and countries that have good arable land tend to be more Vegan orientated than others.

There are some problems with industrialization with this issue. However there are new technology emerging for increasing the high volumes of crops. For example, China and India have huge population. They can not feed their people with traditional way. They have to follow the GM (Genetically Modified) agriculture practice!

Another problem with meat are mad cow decease, Chicken flu etc. Back in early 1990s, Chicken flu spreaded Asia and it is very hard to distinguish between good chickens and bad chickens. The solution is everyone has to stop having Chickens for sometimes.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Flufalcon.

Pls. stop it with the stereotypes here as an argument, they got shot down decades ago. I know many Indians, etc that happily eat meat and chicken, etc. Hindi religion is a different thing nort all of India follows the Hindi religion.

As for the diseases you cited, you are of course of all the vegetables and fruit recalls worldwide due to e-coli, etc contamination.

Like I said, get some real data and don't just argue based on facts promoted by your ideology. On same page now?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Cleo http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/eating-vegetables-doesnt-stop-cancer/ http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/04/06/jnci.djq072.abstract http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7559168/Five-fruit-and-veg-a-day-does-not-significantly-reduce-cancer-risk-research.html

I can go on and on. or should i just say "Steve Jobs."

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

It is Me or you

You are the one arguing with almost everyone in that thread! There is no ideology or promotion about becoming vegans! Celebrities are role models for me. When I have no fish to eat, I may become vegans too. I can give up almost every meat however fish is simply irresistible at the moment.

I agree with Flyfalcon not Flufalcon and Athletes posts! Falcon is touch and never got a flu. We eat a lot of fish here and some species are getting rare! I am very conservative about fishing during their mating season! If there is no new generation of fish, we have no fish to eat more. The world is over populated and we are consuming more than what we have to! I agree with the foreigners who is demanding the conservation about some seafood.

However we are very poor in resources and land! At the moment, we can not stop eating fish. Fish is our life hood & fuel. Even we eat Tofu in the future, I will still look at the fish picture, while I am having the meal.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Nathaw.

Do a bit more study into Veganism(origins, etc) and you will find the ideology, etc.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

ironnchef -

All your links are about the effect of eating more veggies, not about the effect of a vegan/vegetarian diet. (You do understand that people who eat meat can also eat more veggies?)

Steve Jobs - yes, the poor man died young, of cancer. But he wasn't a vegan - he loved sushi. (PETA praised him for being vegetarian, but in fact he was a pescetarian.)

Maybe you don't understand the concept of vegetarians being **12 per cent less likely to contract cancer. 12% is not 100%. For some people, no amount of careful eating or even medical intervention is going to prevent the development of cancer.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

cleo,

show me a research paper from THIS century and i will take your claim seriously.

Read the Steve Jobs book. You will see how his many years of veganism and fruitarianism messed him up.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Lovely. You're going to feed 7 billion with environmentally-friendly, grass-fed meat? Good luck with that. Try asking yourself why all the factory farms and feedlots don't switch to raising their animals naturally.

Why are we still polluting the heck of the planet, why are we still burning fossil fuels and killing eachother? Try asking myself? Why? I know full well why, just like coal and nuclear power, it's all about vested interests. Just like feed lots, it revolves around economics and control. We could have more solar panels and wind turbines providing our power needs and we sure definitely could do with more grassfed meats and less CAFO's. It's all about $$$$ . Not economically viable, tragic really the best answer is doable but we choose to ignore it. Covering millions of acres in corn, soy and wheat is incredibly destructive. Turning millions of acres back to permacultured grass land is the best possible thing that happen to the worlds crop land.. Idealistic ? absolutely, but vegetarians really are clueless to how destructive their crop farming grown food is. Aside from massive amounts of pollution by pesticides and fertilizers, soil destruction, loss of biodiversity – animals pay a huge price. How many animals are killed or displaced by that practice?, how many millions, billions of creatures killed by farm machines, killed when their underground burrows are plowed up, killed by predators when their cover (crops) is harvested and by application of pesticides? From a moralistic high ground, loathing to kill animals for food? - sorry you argument holds no water as your grains are killing millions of poor little critters. Ploughing a prairie dog to death or slaughtering a hog? It's killing an animal. Full stop.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

ironchef -

The Oxford University study is dated 2009.

You'll find that many studies linking cancer (and other diseases) with eating meat go back a bit because we've known about it for a long time (do you need a research paper from this century to convince you that water is wet and fire hot?), but if you insist on later studies -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/24/well-done-red-meat-prostate-cancer_n_1111037.html (2011) - men have a higher risk of developing aggressive prostate cancer if they consume a lot of ground beef and other red meat

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/neal-barnard-md/processed-meat-cancer_b_919034.html (2011) - The more hot dogs people eat, the higher their risk of colorectal cancer.

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/97/19/1458.full (2005) - Red and processed meat intakes were associated with an increased risk of pancreatic cancer.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/Red-meat-and-colon-cancer.shtml (2005) - A high consumption of red and processed meats was linked with a substantial increase in the risk of cancer in the lower colon and rectum

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/181874.php (2010) -the link between consumption of red and processed meat and colorectal cancer has been demonstrated in several studies

And the other side of the story -

A diet high in fibre from whole grains and cereals is linked to a lower risk of colorectal cancer - http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/237492.php (2011)

Not all vegetarian diets are equal; a person who stuffs himself with nothing but crisps, diet coke and white bread sprinkled with refined white sugar is technically a vegan, but no one would consider that a healthy diet.

Now would you like to provide even one link from anywhere in the past hundred years that backs up your claim that a vegan diet contains no fat and causes cancer?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

On Steve Jobs - Steve Jobs, co-founder of Apple Computer, was a fruitarian during the 1970s. "I was actually a fruitarian at that point in time. I ate only fruit. Now I'm a garbage can like everyone else. http://www.copacabanarunners.net/i-fructarianism.html

A fruit-only diet is no more healthy than a Diet Coke and sugar butty diet, and far from representative of a balanced vegetarian diet.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Lots of nice links there Cleo but allow to me quote Dr John Briffa.

The first thing to note, I think, is that the evidence used as the basis for these reviews is epidemiological in nature. Such evidence looks for associations between things. However,just because two things are associated, does not mean one is causing the other Owning a television is associated with an increased risk of heart disease. Does owning a television cause heart disease? If you bought a TV and left it in the boot of your car or buried it in a field, would you be at increased risk of heart disease? Probably not. The issue is not owning the television, it's likely something associated with owning it (e.g. watching it and therefore being more sedentary). Related factors that can incriminate an innocent factor in this way are referred to as "confounding factors". We could have hundreds of studies linking TV ownership with increased risk of heart disease, but they still prove nothing. Likewise evidence regarding red meat and colon cancer. The fact is, even when properly conducted, epidemiological evidence just simply does not tell us a great deal. And it can't , honestly, be used to conclude that red and processed meat increase risk of [colon cancer]. Such conclusions are scientifically untenable, and are generally made by people who:

don't understand the limitations of epidemiological evidence. do understand the limitations but draw inappropriate conclusions anyway

why do they draw these conclusions then? well someone got to pay the bills don't they? and grants, funding come all sorts of places.........

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Does owning a television cause heart disease? If you bought a TV and left it in the boot of your car or buried it in a field, would you be at increased risk of heart disease? Probably not.

Does owning red meat cause cancer? If you bought a steak and left it in the boot of your car or buried it in a field, would you be at increased risk of cancer? Probably not.

I notice the studies are all of people who eat meat, not people who keep dead cow parts in their cars. I suspect that makes quite a bit of difference. :-)

grants, funding come all sorts of places.........

Yes, they do, Carcharodon. Dr. John Briffa, bless him, also has to pay the bills. I see he sells diet books.

If you want to be really healthy, throw out the TV, stop eating red or processed meat, and get a dog - http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/61316.php

domestic dog ownership can prevent people from getting ill, recover more quickly when they do fall ill, and give warning of early signs of cancer, seizures and hypoglycaemia....dog owners have lower blood pressure, lower cholesterol, and are less likely to have minor and serious health problems....dog owners had an 8.6 higher one year survival rate after a heart attack compared to people who did not have a dog

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

domestic dog ownership can prevent people from getting ill, recover more quickly

Most of the celebrities own dogs. If they are vegans, they are not fully vegans because their dogs are not! While I am having the vegetables, my dog will chew bones of some animals. It makes me feel guilty and biased. Dogs can be wild and can kill other pets too! In the extreme case, the owner will become their target. There is no credibility about dog ownership will makes us healthier! Of course, we need a friendly companion depending on our disability. Such as guide dog for blind people.

In some case, we got asthma and unwanted decease because of our pets. I prefer vegan dogs instead of meat eater.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

People who eat red meat....as you you well know there are billions are of those people, and there are huge variations of diets of people who eat meat. Grass fed bison ( -the Leaving the tv in the trunk) versus nitrate filled convenience store sausage (bringing the tv in your living room) is comparing chalk to cheese, most of the studies they cling to will include stuff like pizza because it contains red meat. A clean processed free diet of clean meat sources, good vegetables coupled with plenty of exercise? versus a standard garbage filled, processed food, exercise less diet? Yet they all get lumped together in these studies. Most vegetarians are much fussier about what they eat and tend to eat less processed food and take better car of themselves, hence are better stats - its not the red meat perse.

And I see you still haven't gotten the distinction between causation and correlation........most dog owners WALK a lot more, walking is a simple yet incredibly beneficial activity for good health. Owning a dog doesn't do a thing unless you walk it.

I will agree with you on throwing out the T.V. Along with CAFO's we can agree on some stuff

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Grass fed bison ( -the Leaving the tv in the trunk) versus nitrate filled convenience store sausage (bringing the tv in your living room) is comparing chalk to cheese, most of the studies they cling to will include stuff like pizza because it contains red meat.

Most of the meat people eat is most definitely not 'grass-fed bison'. The studies compare like with like; meat-eaters, some of whom may eat clean, expensive grass-fed bison while others eat low-end sausages and hamburgers, vs vegetarians, some of whom eat clean, expensive organic veggies while others eat any kind of cheap processed rubbish that just doesn't include flesh.

If you want to equate the nitrate-filled convenience store sausage (which actually probably contains very little meat and lots of filler) with bringing the TV into the living-room, maybe the grass-fed bison steaks would be the equivalent of driving the car to the cinema - a bit better, but in either case you still end up spending a couple of hours sitting watching.

As for owning a dog - while I agree that actually walking the dog brings the benefit of more exercise (a benefit a cat-owner or hamster-owner isn't going to enjoy), if you'd bothered to read the article I'd linked to you'd have seen that other benefits are increased social contact and the possibility that the human-dog bond provides a psychological buffer against stress. The mere presence of dogs is also therapeutic for the disabled and for people in hospitals, prisons and residential homes - all people who don't get to actually walk the dog. Dogs also help people with schizophrenia feel calmer and more motivated, and help children with chronic illnesses endure painful treatments.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

stop eating red meat? shall we extract our canine teeth while we are at it?! we humans are meant and designed to eat meat. without the fat and protein (which provide much more of the necessary vitamins and nutrients than veggies, even a wide cornucopia of veggies), our body will stop functioning. You do realize that our body is run by a system of hormones (insulin among one) and these hormones wont be able to function without fat. Why do you think all these indiginous people such as native Americans, Eskimos, etc prize the fatty meats? Even Buddhist monks who live in mountain temples eat yaks for their fat. I dont have time to find the link but you can google it.

I say stop eating grains as the gluten and celiac disease will ruin your body much more than fat "clogging your arteries" .

correlation is not causation as Carcharodon has put it nicely.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

ironchef -

Humans weren't 'designed' for anything, we evolved to be opportunistic.

There is plenty of fat and protein in a balanced vegetarian diet. After 20 years of no meat and lots of complex carbs, my body still hasn't stopped functioning, in fact I'm very healthy and free of many of the problems meat-eaters of my age seem to be prone to. Please produce links to the studies that show vegetarians collapsing because of their diet. Or you don't have time to find that link, either? How come these links are so hard to find? Maybe because they're weird, obscure studies with no credibility, that Google is ashamed to list?

As for canine teeth - totally irrelevent. Lookit the canines on a gorilla, an animal that is almost totally vegetarian. Their diet may contain the occasional grub or caterpillar, but nothing needing those huge canines to tear apart.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-189828/Quit-Atkins-try-gorilla-diet.html

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Humans weren't 'designed' for anything, we evolved to be opportunistic.

LOL! so we evolved to be opportunistic and that means eating nutrient-deficient vegetables and fruits? over eating a more nutrient-filled source such as meat? OHKAY.

i didnt say vegetarians are collapsing because of their diet. and i didnt say vegetables causes cancer. but i am saying for the amount of food you put in your body, vegetables exclusively is a big waste of resources. you have to eat 20 kinds of veggies for the same nutrients you would get from grass-fed meat, with good fat.

in the case of cancer, i hope you do realize that it is a proliferation of tumors. what is fueling that growth? insulin. insulin from junk processed foods. meat will not have any negative effects on that. vegetables is probably neutral but i definitely dont believe it will prevent cancer. if anything, the opposite.

and since you love citing british news articles so much, here u go;

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Humans weren't 'designed' for anything, we evolved to be opportunistic.

Human were originated from some form of creatures who were similar to Chinks or Gorilla. Originally they were Vegans before the advance level of development. That theory was written by Charles Darwin. For Eskimo, they can not survive without fish or seal! They can not grow the crops in the icy and harsh weather. They have to be meat eaters definitely. Native Americans were meat eaters because of the opportunity available for hunting. Growing crops was pain staking and took a long time. Crops can be stolen. They can be vegans if they wanted to. However hunting was more convenient than farming for them.

My brother in law got stomach cancer. He has to stop having red meat , fatty fast food and consume a lot of broccoli and green veggies. Surprisingly he survived from state 3 and not getting worse. Of course he has no fun for having meal! What sort of alternative does he have? The name is death!

I paid my respect to Cleo for sharing her diet knowledge with JT posters. She can professional dietitian if she wanted to.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

that means eating nutrient-deficient vegetables and fruits? over eating a more nutrient-filled source such as meat? OHKAY.

Nutrient-filled or calorie-filled? Maybe explains why the affluent meat-eating world is suffering from an epidemic of obesity.

i didnt say vegetarians are collapsing because of their diet. and i didnt say vegetables causes cancer.

Then what did you mean by our body will stop functioning and if you want to get cancer, go vegan?

you have to eat 20 kinds of veggies for the same nutrients you would get from grass-fed meat

Sounds like a good, varied diet. What's not to like? The good thing about grass-fed meat is that it's so expensive and in such short supply that if everyone insisted on eating only meat that was grass-fed, overall meat intake would plummet. That would be a good thing. But the vast majority of the meat eaten today is NOT grass-fed.

insulin from junk processed foods. meat will not have any negative effects on that

You realise that almost all junk processed food contains meat or animal products in one form or another?

Thank you for the link. So one lady who takes things to extremes 'proves' that a well-balanced vegetarian diet is dangerous? Measured against the millions of people who have become sick, had poor quality of life and/or died thanks to their factory-farmed junk food diet?

Nathaw - Please stop making references to 'Chinks and Gorillas'. It's neither factual nor relevant. The last common ancestor of gorillas, chimpanzees, and humans that we know about (I think) is Nakalipithecus nakayamai which lived in Africa 10 million years ago and had a diet mainly of nuts and seeds and looked nothing like either an ethnic Asian person or a gorilla.

As for the 'healthy' fatty animal-based diets of the Eskimos - the average lifespan of a modern Canadian Inuit is 12 to 15 years shorter than the national average, and the shortest of all the aboriginal groups. Between 1991 and 2001 the life expectancy of the average Canadian rose steadily, while it stagnated for the Inuit, further widening the gap. And Inuit infant mortality is 4 times that of the general population.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/23/us-inuit-idUSN2362426520080123

Not saying it's all the fault of their diet, but all that blubber doesn't seem to be helping much.

And Nathaw, your brother can have lots of fun with broccoli and green veg, if he wants to. Glad to hear his illness isn't getting any worse.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

nathwa aka athlete :

Human were originated from some form of creatures who were similar to Chinks or Gorilla.

OK, OK, some racist already wrote the word CHINK the other day. I really didn't bother reading your post after that word because you lose all credibility.

ironchef:

stop eating red meat? shall we extract our canine teeth while we are at it?! we humans are meant and designed to eat meat.

Yeah, that's why it's so easy for humans to tear apart raw flesh with their teeth.

Without fat and protein? What do think beans, avocados and nuts are made of? Diamonds?

insulin from junk processed foods. meat will not have any negative effects on that.

Junk food usually has meat or is deep-fried, or contains too much sugar, etc. That's got nothing to do with being vegan or not. You're confusing the two (on purpose to justify your own arguments). I'd love to see how you survive on meat only without the veggies and fruit. You're going to be spending ages on the toilet forcing it out. But to each his own.

And taken from your own link:

Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you are doing, especially in regards to weight,"

I've been vegan for well over 10 years. I'm still alive and kicking. And no, I'm not that skinny. Just slim. I have a medical every year. Low bad cholesterol and high good cholesterol.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Human were originated from some form of creatures who were similar to Chinks or Gorilla.

OK, OK, some racist already wrote the word CHINK the other day. I really didn't bother reading your post after that word because you lose all credibility.

I am very Sorry Phukey2! Actually it was a typing mistake! I supposed to type as Chimps. It is representing Chimpanzee. Something went wrong while I was typing. I also apologized behalf of other guy if he typed like that! He may be like me too. There was no any intention of racial jokes or insult! I was born in China town of somewhere .

By the way, I am a vegan by myself and I used to travel to Phuket of Thai.The reason was for celebrating Vegetarian and fire walking festival with local Chinese. Some celebrities wished to go there too. If you are interested I have an information here!

http://www.phuketvegetarian.com/Phuketvegetarian2011-eng.pdf

0 ( +0 / -0 )

ah, the vegans attack. No toilet problems for me for sure. I take it you probably experience that quite a bit since you brought it up.

if beans, avocados, and nuts are your only fat and protein, good luck. Im sure the next 10 years of your vegan life will be much worse. And yes, it is easier to tear apart raw meat with my teeth than it is to plant seeds, fertilize the fields, temper the air and soil to just perfect conditions to grow genetically-modified food that looks nothing like its ancestors. Show me a Fuji apple or avocado from thousands of years ago--oh yeah, you can't.

So your logic makes no sense. Much like vegans in general make no sense. But like you said, to each his or her own.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Ironchef: You should have a look at quinoa. Its protein content is very high (12%–18%). Unlike wheat or rice (which are low in lysine), and like oats, quinoa contains a balanced set of essential amino acids for humans, making it a complete protein source, unusual among plant foods. It is a good source of dietary fiber and phosphorus and is high in magnesium and iron. Quinoa is gluten-free and considered easy to digest. Because of all these characteristics, quinoa is being considered a possible crop in NASA's Controlled Ecological Life Support System for long-duration manned spaceflights.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

So your logic makes no sense.

Back at you. You want to compare the worst of vegetarian eating (well-meaning but clueless ladies on extreme vegan diets) with the best of meat eating (quality grass-fed beef) - it doesn't work like that. The vast majority of meat-eaters are not eating your grass-fed beef. In fact the more meat there is in their diet, the less likely it is to be grass-fed, if only because of the price; and the more they're spending on quality meat, the more they're going to be filling up on veggies.

And it's certainly not logical of you to insist that vegetarians should be eating fruit and veg 'from thousands of years ago' - as if the animals that provided the raw meat you're tearing with your teeth are unchanged from thousands of years ago? Riiiight.

As for toilet talk - I hear lots of folk complain about problems in that area. Once or twice a week, the worst cases a couple of times a month. All of them people eating a 'healthy' meat-based diet. The ones who have taken my advice and added more fibre to their diets have felt better in no time.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LOL

toilet talk--i would attribute that to gluten and celiac disease..messes up the gut. As such, vegetarians/vegans probably eat a ton of wheat products in order to get full. I bet that would mess up your system badly.

present day animals are more in their natural form than these greenhouse-grown, genetically modified veggies and fruits that have been cross-hybrid umpteen number of times to produce the maximum sugar and starch content. I doubt if an animal has the same ability.

Fiber myth: http://www.gutsense.org/reports/myth.html

and this blog post basically summarizes what i want to say, but this guy is much better and more knowledgeable: http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2011/2/5/no-such-thing-as-a-macronutrient-part-ii-carbohydrates-revis.html

Good luck vegans!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

vegetarians/vegans probably eat a ton of wheat products

Speculation? You mean you don't know? It's the meat-eaters who have the toilet problems. So why would they be affected by how much or how little wheat products there are in a vegetarian diet?

present day animals are more in their natural form

Oh my, you really don't know what you're talkin' about, do you?

Chickens are bred to grow at abnormal speed and pack on so much flesh they can hardly walk (just as well, since they get no chance to walk in their tiny cages). A modern broiler would die of heart failure if made to run more than three paces, which it can't because it most likely (over 30%) has deformed legs caused by unnaturally rapid growth.

Egg-layers are subjected to light-interference, medication and forced moulting (starvation) to maximise egg production - nothing 'natural' about that.

Beef cattle are also bred to produce the maximum flesh for minimum feed, and are treated with growth hormones and antibiotics. Again, nothing natural there.

gutsense - Oh dear. The first 'myth' was enough to convince me that the writer of this link either doesn't know what he's writing about, or is deliberately trying to mislead people. The first part of the 'myth' - 30-40 gm of fibre - is sound enough, but who says it has to be from only fruit? No one. A good balanced diet containing whole grains, legumes, root veggies and yes, fruit and leafies, will easily provide that much fibre without having to consume the equivalent of 10 spoons of refined sugar from fruit alone. Didn't bother reading any further.

From your second link, among all the pseudo-science - almost any animal can be eaten with monotony and provide all essential amino acids. Sounds wonderful - but who wants to eat a monotonous diet? No thank you. (tip - don't confuse 'uses lots of big words and high-falutin' language' with 'is knowledgeable'. They're not the same.)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

cleo

Oh my, you really don't know what you're talkin' about, do you?

Agree with you 100% here, to say that "present day animals are more in their natural form" is the most ridiculous statement l have ever heard. Sadly Ironchef's opinion seems to be the norm though. Most people would be horrified to know where their meat comes from, how its grow and treated, how its killed and what its feed and injected with. While l am not a vegetarian, l am a meat and veg type in my home country l do not and will not buy meat from a butcher or supermarket (I only do it here in Japan as l have no other alternative). Rather we raise our own animals (Chooks for eggs and meat, ducks for meat, rabbits, sheep and pigs we also go in with other family members for cows for meat) this way you know the animals have been naturally well feed and lived a decent life. I understand not everyone can do this but after seeing how particularily pigs and chooks are raised (and treated) for meat l refuse to touch this meat.

To say that present day animals are more in their natural forms is garbage, present day animals are so full of hormones, steroids and other chemicals to promote growth its disgusting and as you say chooks for example are so artificially grow they can hardly walk due to deformaties. Maybe Ironchef should visit a chook farm to see for himself if he really believes this statement

0 ( +0 / -0 )

i love how vegans get so emotional for their beliefs must be their diet.

@spidapig24

Agree with you 100% here, to say that "present day animals are more in their natural form" is the most ridiculous statement l have ever heard.

you must have had a really sheltered life then..LOL

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

ironchef

@spidapig24 "Agree with you 100% here, to say that "present day animals are more in their natural form" is the most ridiculous statement l have ever heard." you must have had a really sheltered life then..LOL

Really!!!! Sheltered, hardly. Infact to say the statement you did shows a total lack of understanding on your part so l dare say it is infact you who has led the sheltered life. Have you ever been to a commercially run piggery, or chook farm? Have you ever been to an abattoirs where livestock is slaughtered? Have you ever worked on a farm where livestock is raised for sale to supermarkets etc? I doubt very much that you can honestly answer yes to any of the questions otherwise you would not have made such a statement. And for the record l can honestly say yes to all the questions which is why l made the statement l did, and l stand by my statement that present day animals are so far removed from their natural form its not funny. And this is why when l am at home in my home country we (my family) do not buy meat of any description from the butcher or supermarket but raise is and slaughter it ourselves that way we know what we are eating. So l would say with a high degree of certainty that it is you Ironchef that has led the sheltered life.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

LOL, emotional vegans! i love it.

forgot about this thread here but it always amuses me how vegans are so emotional, much like hollywood actresses. Yes, i am sheltered. I live in a house. LOL

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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