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© 2021 AFPDiet-related illness increases with availability of red meat: study
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© 2021 AFP
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Strangerland
All meals should be plant based, and if you're a meat-eater, some should also have meat. But if you want to be healthy, plants should make up a significant part, if not the bulk of, most meals.
Yrral
Prostate cancer, linked to red meats
Gaijinjland
I only eat red meat 2 or 3 times a month and have no plans on stopping. I would go crazy if all I ever ate was plant based. Everything is unhealthy if eaten in excess.
Strangerland
Depends on the fat. Non-dairy animal fats are associated with an increase in heart disease. Plant and dairy fats on the other hand are good for you.
Fuzzy
Gotta wonder why these studies always lump red meat in with highly processed meats. A good grass fed, grass finished steak is a very different thing to a slab of salami. Also curious that this study is about health impacts, but the reporter feels the need to also talk about the environmental impacts of red meat...
Strangerland
This study that just came out looked at animal fat vs. plant fat:
https://newsroom.heart.org/news/vegetable-fat-may-decrease-stroke-risk-while-animal-fat-increases-it
But to answer your question, most food studies are only able to look at correlation, not causation, as causation studies with food come with a slew of ethics questions. So food studies are almost always epidemiological, and it's harder to test more specific comparisons like the one you question.
prionking
Articles like this are coming out regularly to demonise red meat, with the underlying thrust being to "save the planet".
Of course, that won't stop the same people who fly to climate confabs in their private jets from eating a juicy steak at whim while telling us we should be chowing down on bugs and grass.
Fuzzy
@Strangerland
I'm familiar with the limitations of food studies. My point was, this comes across as a hit piece on red meat rather than a balanced study. I'm sure you know correlation does not equal causation, but that didn't stop the authors concluding red meat was the cause.
And, as you point out, nuance is important. Animal fat and plant fat are not the same thing. Likewise, the fat found in a sustainably farmed, organic, grass fed and finished piece of red meat is vastly different to the fat of the commercially farmed, grain fed, pesticide and antibiotic laden meat found in most supermarkets.
Pukey2
Dairy fats are NOT good for your health. And eating all plant-based does not hurt anyone.
The dairy and meat industries are being subsidized big-time. They will fight to the bitter end if more people choose not to eat their stuff. Why are there not more subsidies for healthier food?
menov
Again with the lies.
Instead of red & processed meat, they could have written "vegetables & processed vegetables".
The culprit is processed food, any, processed food with harmful ingredients will cause illness not only in red meat but also in vegetables and fruits. Actually even processed water will give you cancer and other diseases.
Call us when a true experiment will be done, one without any processed foods!
Fuzzy
@menov
Could not agree more! processed food is the single biggest contributor to almost all of the modern health problems. There is so much hate on this site for pharma companies "profiting from illness". That hate would be better directed at the companies that are responsible for causing the illnesses in the first place! Monsanto, Cargill, Kraft, Nestle, Coca Cola, McDonalds... the list is endless.
Strangerland
It won't stop them. And unfortunately, the childish among us will then use that to justify doing nothing themselves, as if we should be setting our behavior by being better than the worst, rather than trying to achieve the best. These people are the useless members of society who would have been eaten in older times.
Strangerland
Well, they concluded that "red and processed meat" were the cause, not just red meat exclusively:
Strangerland
That's not what recent studies are saying:
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003763
Or:
Link: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/104/5/1209/4564387
Or:
Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7353644/
The idea that dairy is bad for you is outdated. The accepted science of the past two decades is that dairy is not bad for you, with some recent studies indicating it may improve cardiovascular health, leading to longer lives.
Whether or not well-raised red-mea alone is bad for you in large quantities, is something I have not been able to many studies on. For now I eat read meat, and feel that it's not only ok, it's an excellent source of vitamins and nutrients. My own thoughts are that it also seems plausible that eating too much of it, even if it's well raised, could have negative effects on overall health.
Fuzzy
@Strangerland
And that's exactly the point of my first post. By lumping these two things very different together they skew the results. I'm suggesting they do this intentionally to drive their agenda.
Strangerland
Ohh, that's an interesting theory you have on this conspiracy of "theirs". Whoever "they" are.
Fuzzy
@Strangerland
I'm not suggesting some big conspiracy. Propaganda, yes.
Strangerland
Propaganda IS conspiracy. It's a concerted effort to push a narrative.
And you have a theory that "they" are doing it.
Raw Beer
Plenty of people are doing very well on a carnivore diet:
https://www.youtube.com/c/ShawnBakerMD
But of course, as Fuzzy and Menov mentioned, that does not mean a diet of salami and hotdogs.
Regarding oils, margarine and seed oils should be avoided as much as possible. Olive, coconut, and avocado oils are great, but I see nothing wrong with butter and animal fat, depending on the source and what else you eat.
Strangerland
I don't take anecdotal evidence as anything more than a compelling story. I've sat through podcasts with various proponents of the carnivore diet, and it does interest me. But, any elimination diet will show positive effects for a period of time. The question is whether or not it is healthy long-term, and/or whether it has negative effects on the body long-term. I've seen no studies to show one way or the other.
Strangerland
Margarine is the devil. Seed oils depend on the seed. Grapeseed oil for example isn't considered to be bad for you in any way.
Fuzzy
@Strangerland
Sure, you can't separate conspiracy and propaganda, but our modern world is rife with both. All of these studies are paid for by someone. You gotta ask yourself who paid for it and why. Even a completely unbiassed and legit study can be cherry picked and twisted to drive a narrative i.e. propaganda.
This article just struck me as odd. It's ok we disagree on that.
Take this for example:
So why do this study then if it's already well established? Their findings are nothing new.
Oh, they "noted" this, but they didn't actually study this did they.
To me this article reeks of an environmental agenda disguised as a health concern. I actually think this is an important issue that needs a solution. I'd just prefer they tackle that issue head on, rather than mixing it with health.
Try and discredit my points by labeling me a conspiracy theorist if you like, but I stand by my position to take most things I read with a grain of salt.
Strangerland
Eh? You're speaking of a lack of studies that separate red meat from processed. No one has paid for it - the studies haven't been done, so they haven't been paid for.
Fuzzy
@Strangerland
You seem a little confused by what I'm saying, so let's leave it there. Time to get out and enjoy a beautiful autumn day!
Addfwyn
Lumping processed meats in with red meats in general seems...strange. Surely you would want to test those categories separately to get the most accurate data you can?
I am definitely healthier now that I started eating meat again, after years of avoiding it. Not saying you can't have a healthy plant-based diet, but you have to be way more attentive to what you are eating. As a teenager, I really wasn't. Now I eat meat moderately, along with plenty of vegetables and fish as well. Generally has worked out well for me.
fxgai
Hmmm, so are there no positive effects from a bit of meat in the diet? Life expectancy is pretty long recently, not convinced we are doing something all so wrong there.
Paul
Humans are meat eaters, we are not cows we do not have teeth for it nor the digestive system.
OnTheTrail
I would have thought the early demise of the red meat eater would more than offset the impact to the environment. Less people = better environment.
RegBilk
StrangerlandNov. 23 12:49 pm JST
There are many questions. The science on this issue often clashes, as with the vaccine debate.
Strangerland
Which science are you referring to?
Strangerland
Not if the road to create enough meat to kill off enough people to get to that point would be fatal to our species.
Strangerland
Just to be clear, I think you're making a mistaken assumption that there is any science on this matter out there. I think what you are talking about is that there are some people who are proponents of the diet, and other people who like what they say support them, regardless of the lack of science out there on the matter.
But I could be wrong, it's been over a year since I looked. Which is why I asked, what science exactly are you saying is clashing with which other science on the matter? Last I looked, there wasn't ANY science on the matter, only anecdotes.
Strangerland
I could say the same back. My point was that by default, studies don't exist. Doing a study requires the desire to do a study, and the funding to sponsor it. If a study hasn't been done, that can't be considered to be propaganda, as it's the default state that exists through a lack of any action by anyone. Unless someone has been actively preventing studies from happening, there is no nefarious intent, there is an absence of any intent.
RegBilk
StrangerlandToday 01:44 am JST
The issue of whether red meat diets are adverse or not to one's health.
RegBilk
StrangerlandToday 02:15 am JST
Whether eating red meat is adverse to one's health is an issue.
RegBilk
StrangerlandNov. 23 10:00 am JST
Sounds like you are referring to a scientific study above.
Sounds like you further refer to scientific studies above.
So I am confused as to your below comment:
For me, I believe there are conflicting studies on red meat diets and whether they have adverse health effects.
Strangerland
Eh? How is a study about plant fat vs. animal fat a study on the carnivore diet?
I don't think you are. I think you're just stumbling over the fact that I pointed out that there isn't actually any science on the carnivore diet, and therefore this statement of yours was made without any basis in reality:
Leaving me at my original point:
RegBilk
StrangerlandToday 03:43 am JST
Maybe animal fat is a component of a carnivore diet?
No, I am confused by your conflicting points.
Was there a point?
starpunk
People are always telling us what they think is right for us. They want everyone to eat nothing but Millers Bran and get unhealthy, unhappy, and look sickly - a bag of bones.
This is old hat propaganda and a bunch of absolute BULL.
Raw Beer
An agenda that was likely discussed during COP26.