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Pre-orders of COVID-19 vaccine top 5 billion

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By Ivan Couronne

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When you get a vaccine, it is being shot directly into your blood

Yeah, just like The Panic in Needle Park. Thanks, Science Guy.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Hmmm, so I wonder why victims of the HPV vaccines were awarded millions...

For exactly the same reason, they do not have to prove that vaccines are in any way responsible for whatever problems they had after, even if there are other very obvious reasons (like preexisting conditions) they are allowed to receive compensation if there is any possibility the vaccine had anything to do with it, even if that possibility is so minuscule that it would be defeated in court quickly.

You mean like like saying that an infection will yield 1 gram of viral proteins, or all those other unsupported numbers you came up with.

I told you perfectly clear how you could reach that number by yourself, its basic arithmetic. Are you unable to perform this very simple task?

There is no proof that vaccines are either safe or effective. When someone refuses to accept that any vaccine have had any problems at all, they lose all credibility.

On the contrary, there are mountains of proof, all the scientific literature clearly points to that conclusion and every single professional association that has to deal with health in the world have the same conclusion.

On the other side we have you, with no credentials and no data to support the opposite conclusion, It is very easy to see who is right on this.

I am willing to accept that a future vaccine might be safe and effective, but until past problems are acknowledged and discussed honestly, they can all go to ...

Well, if the problems only exist on your mind, and you refuse to accept they are mistaken even when directly proven so to you it is not the reality that has to change. People that actively deny science and logic and instead base their opinions on what makes them feel better are not susceptible to be convinced they are wrong, even with centuries of objective data.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Hmmm, so I wonder why victims of the HPV vaccines were awarded millions...

Of course not, I am only pushing for true facts not pulled from thing air to be used as arguments.

You mean like like saying that an infection will yield 1 gram of viral proteins, or all those other unsupported numbers you came up with.

There is no proof that vaccines are either safe or effective. When someone refuses to accept that any vaccine have had any problems at all, they lose all credibility.

I am willing to accept that a future vaccine might be safe and effective, but until past problems are acknowledged and discussed honestly, they can all go to ...

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System).

Read again the requirements for that, a correlation with the vaccine is not one.

It may surprise you but being vaccinated against the HPV does not protect against every single kind of disease or danger. As long as the person suffers from something it will get registered. To have an specific relationship you need to compare those numbers with those of people that have not been vaccinated and find a statistically significative difference.

In November 2019, initial post-licensure safety monitoring of Gardasil 9 was published in Pediatrics. In two separate articles, analyses from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) and the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) were presented. Both included multiple years of data, and did not identify any unexpected safety problems with Gardasil 9. These findings support the favorable safety profile that was established in pre-licensure clinical trials.

Analysis from VAERS: Researchers reviewed 7,244 reports submitted to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System following HPV vaccination from December 2014 through December 2017. Of those reports, around 97% were classified as non-serious; around 3% were considered serious. The analysis did not detect any new or unexpected safety concerns.

Analysis from VSD: The Vaccine Safety Datalink conducted near-real time surveillance from October 2015 through October 2017, looking at 11 pre-specified adverse events. During this two-year time period, nearly 840,000 doses were administered to people aged 9-26 years at six VSD sites. No new safety concerns were identified.

You are just pushing the usual pharma talking points. You keep on repeating the "safe and effective" mantra without acknowledging the well documented complications caused by vaccines. That 's why I don't trust those pushing for vaccines.

Of course not, I am only pushing for true facts not pulled from thing air to be used as arguments. It does not matter how much you wish for vaccines to be bad, if you don't have the data to prove it then it can safely be described as nonsense. Vaccines have a proven record of safety and efficacy and are a hugely much better option than the disease they are made to prevent.

Again, you are free to choose the much worse option, but that does not mean that objectively it is the worse one, and by a lot.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

I mention it precisely because is one of the typical myths of antivaxxers, there are absolutely no deaths or disease that has been in any way related specifically to HPV vaccine,

Oh my!!!

Look up the negative reactions to HPV vaccines reported by VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System).

As of 7/14/2018:

2773 disabled

430 dead

...

Also, according to a study, only a very small fraction of complications have been reported to VAERS. If I recall correctly, it was a serious Harvard study; sorry I don't have a link. So the above numbers should be increased at least 10-fold.

You are just pushing the usual pharma talking points. You keep on repeating the "safe and effective" mantra without acknowledging the well documented complications caused by vaccines. That 's why I don't trust those pushing for vaccines.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

One gram of viral protein produced in an asymptomatic person? That seems a bit high. You seem to like throwing these numbers around...

Very easy to prove, just check the number of virions produced per single cell, the the number of cells of a tissue and the weight of each, even very low percentages of infection are enough to produce 1g of viral proteins, and that is without taking in account the amount that the cell produces without forming virions or continued infection for days or weeks.

BTW, I do know what mRNA is.

Then it is not logical to think that animal cells are necessary for its production when the opposite is true.

I'm still curious as to which vaccine you had in mind that involves injecting micrograms of pure proteins

Take your pick, the WHO has current information on over 100 vaccine candidates including many listed as inactivated virions or recombinant S proteins, those involve injecting micrograms of proteins.

Some of the other candidates do involve viruses, which I am assuming are produced in various animal cell lines, from which certain products will end up in your bloodstream.

With modern purification methods those are what I mentioned would still contain less animal cells than what you get in your blood stream by breathing.

And of course that is if the process is not GMP, which requires it to be xeno-free.

Interesting that you would mention HPV. I hope you are aware that hundreds (probably thousands) have died from the HPV vaccine, and many thousands have become disabled.

I mention it precisely because is one of the typical myths of antivaxxers, there are absolutely no deaths or disease that has been in any way related specifically to HPV vaccine, studies have demonstrated vaccinated people are more healthy than not vaccinated. Which demonstrate this pseudo-argument is just a lie.

And that is without taking in account the thousands of cases of lethal cancer that it prevents.

Therefore it is true, you have no data to prove that patients of covid19 will or not develop side-effects years in the future, the same as the vaccine, And it is perfectly well known that natural infections actually produce those effects frequenty, from autoimmune diseases to cancer.

So you are assuming that if the immunized animals survived infection with no observed complications, then immunized humans will too? I will not risk my life with such an assumption, the risks are still there.

No, scientists can comprobate with objective data that enough testing and vigilance can prove that the amount of risk of secondary effects from the vaccine are astronomically lower than with the natural infection. The risk with natural infection are there, and they are higher.

You are risking your life, because you cannot prove that the natural infection is safe in the long term, you have not even analyzed statistically that possibility, vaccines are several degrees above this because they have at least tested for it, in animals and humans.

You are irrationally choosing the more risky option by any kind of analysis that can be done, which of course you are free to do, but that does not mean it is not irrational.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

One gram of viral protein produced in an asymptomatic person? That seems a bit high. You seem to like throwing these numbers around...

...clinical trials access number NCT04283461 clearly describes the vaccine as lipid nanoparticle delivered, so no, no viral vectors are used, and if you understood what mRNA is you would also understand that using cell lines (any) to produce it is nonsense. large scale In-vitro transcription production requires total absence of cells.

Thank you for the info about the use of lipid nanoparticles to deliver a synthetic mRNA. That does indeed seem safer than other types of vaccines, albeit less effective. I hope that one becomes available in Japan.

BTW, I do know what mRNA is.

I'm still curious as to which vaccine you had in mind that involves injecting micrograms of pure proteins.

Some of the other candidates do involve viruses, which I am assuming are produced in various animal cell lines, from which certain products will end up in your bloodstream.

At least I have more data than you when you say the vaccine would have this side-effects, because there are many more examples of infectious diseases that produce this (from measles to HPV) than vaccines, scientifically proved.

Interesting that you would mention HPV. I hope you are aware that hundreds (probably thousands) have died from the HPV vaccine, and many thousands have become disabled.

And we already discussed about the animal trials with the SARS vaccine, with some candidates resulting in death when the immunized animals were then exposed to the virus. This is a kind of test that cannot be done on humans; they will not intentionally expose humans to the virus to test the vaccine. This is something that could pop up after millions are vaccinated and as usual things will be hushed up...

Err duh! that is why animal test are done. In large quantities and with huge amount of tests to detect even very faint hints of problem.

So you are assuming that if the immunized animals survived infection with no observed complications, then immunized humans will too? I will not risk my life with such an assumption, the risks are still there.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Even if you are right, the viral load is usually very low for asymptomatics.

Therefore, in non-symptomatic patients you can observe levels way above the billions, that is precisely my point in using asymptomatic people as the example.

Wow, proteins in the microgram level does indeed sound low to the average (nonscientist) person.

Even non-scientists can understand that a vaccine injecting micrograms of a protein is nothing when compared with a full infection which can mean viruses produce proteins (including many not included in a protein) up to the gram level, that is one million bigger scale.

One vaccine that I initially thought sounded promising was the Moderna one, which uses the mRNA encoding one of the spike proteins, and it gets our own cells to translate it into protein. But I would like to know more about their mRNA delivery platform before accepting to get it injected into my blood. Are they using an engineered virus? How are they prepared? Are they using animal cell lines?

You can consult all the information you want from the public sources available, for example clinical trials access number NCT04283461 clearly describes the vaccine as lipid nanoparticle delivered, so no, no viral vectors are used, and if you understood what mRNA is you would also understand that using cell lines (any) to produce it is nonsense. large scale In-vitro transcription production requires total absence of cells. So no, you get more animal cells in your blood stream just by breathing.

Also, moderna even uses the mRNA of half a protein that means that it is even safer when compared with the natural infection that involves cells producing dozens of them. You proved yourself wrong by choosing the vaccine candidate that more strongly bets for safety, even if this could sacrifice efficacy.

And we already discussed about the animal trials with the SARS vaccine, with some candidates resulting in death when the immunized animals were then exposed to the virus. This is a kind of test that cannot be done on humans; they will not intentionally expose humans to the virus to test the vaccine. This is something that could pop up after millions are vaccinated and as usual things will be hushed up...

Err duh! that is why animal test are done. In large quantities and with huge amount of tests to detect even very faint hints of problem.

Do you know what have literally millions of times more risk to produce death? the natural infection, which exposes the body to much more quantity and variety of antigens over a longer time in uncontrolled fashion and with very heavy modification of the immune system, enough to produce immediate pathology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i536vS3z3e8

Still wrong, there is nobody in that video with a time machine that brought data now about how many asymptomatic people with covid developed complications in the following years.

You have no data to say this.

Of course I do, because I am saying this is a possibility, not that it will surely happen.

At least I have more data than you when you say the vaccine would have this side-effects, because there are many more examples of infectious diseases that produce this (from measles to HPV) than vaccines, scientifically proved.

So no, your choice is still yours to do it, but it is also a completely irrational one.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Take a look of the number of viruses detected by test like PCR, getting a number on the billion copies in one swab is not unusual even for asymptomatic people, now think how much viruses are in the whole body if the small percentage that is excreted is this much.

Even if you are right, the viral load is usually very low for asymptomatics.

Against that you have viral proteins in the microgram level,

Wow, proteins in the microgram level does indeed sound low to the average (nonscientist) person. Try calculating the number of proteins, since you are comparing it to the number of viral proteins from a natural infection. Micrograms of protein is actually a very large number of protein molecules.

Anyway, you are making it sound like they are injecting a pure antigenic protein. Which vaccine are you referring to?

One vaccine that I initially thought sounded promising was the Moderna one, which uses the mRNA encoding one of the spike proteins, and it gets our own cells to translate it into protein. But I would like to know more about their mRNA delivery platform before accepting to get it injected into my blood. Are they using an engineered virus? How are they prepared? Are they using animal cell lines?

And we already discussed about the animal trials with the SARS vaccine, with some candidates resulting in death when the immunized animals were then exposed to the virus. This is a kind of test that cannot be done on humans; they will not intentionally expose humans to the virus to test the vaccine. This is something that could pop up after millions are vaccinated and as usual things will be hushed up...

Sorry, but I don't trust anything that corrupt people like Faucci and Gates are associated with.

Getting infected has a 40-60% (or higher, depending on the study) chance of being asymptomatic. And if you are healthy, is very unlikely to result in any complication.

You have no data to say this,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i536vS3z3e8

it is perfectly possible that in 3 or 5 years a lot of asymptomatic people begin to develop serious complications because of the uncontrolled exposure to this virus.

You have no data to say this.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

An infection might start with just one virus, so the number of viral proteins will depend on how long it takes for you immune system to respond. Why do you assume it will have million more viral proteins.

Take a look of the number of viruses detected by test like PCR, getting a number on the billion copies in one swab is not unusual even for asymptomatic people, now think how much viruses are in the whole body if the small percentage that is excreted is this much.

But at least, when you get an infection you are getting only viral proteins, from a virus than enters through the natural infection path.

That means millions times more of viral proteins, including non-strucutural proteins that are present only during active infection (not part of the virus itself but produced to modify and disregulate the immune response when inside the cells, the virus is present and replicating not only in the blood but also in every other tissue from the skin to the brain, respiratory airways are only the best place for infection, not the only place.

So you got millions of times more proteins, with a much wider variety, that cannot be controlled and keeps increasing during all the time the infection is active and present in all kinds of cells of the body.

Against that you have viral proteins in the microgram level, introduced one single time, that do not increase, not mixed with viral immune system interfering proteins, with perfectly well known other antigens (you just have to looks at the information publicly available about the vaccine) on trace levels (picograms) if any.

So yeah, the natural infection have literally millions of times more chances of causing a secondary condition because of the wider variety of antigens, the kinds of tissues that are infected and the hugely bigger amount of proteins the immune system is exposed.

Funny that you would bring up cancer and other serious complications as if vaccines do nit have any relation to them.

To a degree that can even be compared with natural infections? no, they don't. And since you don't have any information about serious long term complications for covid19 this disease is also included, there is simply no example for any vaccine currently available where the risks of vaccination are even a tiny fraction of the risks of infection. This pandemic have no reason to be different, and even more, there is data available that points that infection actually have these side effects much more frequently than expected.

Getting infected has a 40-60% (or higher, depending on the study) chance of being asymptomatic. And if you are healthy, is very unlikely to result in any complication. I

You have no data to say this, it is perfectly possible that in 3 or 5 years a lot of asymptomatic people begin to develop serious complications because of the uncontrolled exposure to this virus.

 I will not risk my health for a 50% effective vaccine from a corrupt industry, that will inject who knows what directly into my blood.

But you will risk your health with an infection millions of times more likely to cause trouble by poisoning your blood with huge amounts of viral proteins, including many that are not even present in an inactivated vaccine. You are free to do it of course, but that does not mean it is logical or rational to do it. It is still demonstrably the worst option compared with vaccination.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Since a natural infection means the body is exposed to millions times more viral proteins and much more damage than any vaccine it means it is much more likely that any hidden long term effects will appear after being infected compared with being vaccinated.

An infection might start with just one virus, so the number of viral proteins will depend on how long it takes for you immune system to respond. Why do you assume it will have million more viral proteins.

But at least, when you get an infection you are getting only viral proteins, from a virus than enters through the natural infection path.

When you get a vaccine, it is being shot directly into your blood. And who knows what is in the vaccine, what kind of animal cell lines were used. Funny that you would bring up cancer and other serious complications as if vaccines do nit have any relation to them.

Getting infected has a 40-60% (or higher, depending on the study) chance of being asymptomatic. And if you are healthy, is very unlikely to result in any complication. I will not risk my health for a 50% effective vaccine from a corrupt industry, that will inject who knows what directly into my blood.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Plasma is NOT a vaccine.

Being fully aware of where I am, I did not mean that in the strict medical/scientific sense. For most people, a vaccine is simply a viral disease immunity providing agent. Thus, its equivalent to a vaccine in most people's minds.

When injected into a new patient, the “plasma-derived therapy” — also known as convalescent plasma — provides “passive immunity” until the patient’s immune system can generate its own antibodies.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/05/how-blood-plasma-from-recovered-patients-could-help-treat-coronavirus/

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Seeing how Covid19 is much less deadly as once thiught, I will skip the vaccine and instead get immunized by the actual virus.

Of course you are free to do it, but it makes absolutely no sense. There is no vaccine currently being used that has a percentage of deaths and serious complications as covid19, if the new vaccine is at least safe and effective as the average that still means it is much safer than the natural infection.

And even if your fears are about long term safety, that is also unknown for covid19, it is perfectly possible that people infected and recovered would end up with cancers, autoimmune disease or rapidly progressive lung diseases a few years from now. Since a natural infection means the body is exposed to millions times more viral proteins and much more damage than any vaccine it means it is much more likely that any hidden long term effects will appear after being infected compared with being vaccinated.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Plasma. What's that? An inexpensive highly effective working vaccine

When you post stuff like this, it clearly shows you are someone who thinks your google power makes you more knowledgable than people who know what they are talking about.

Plasma is NOT a vaccine.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

Seeing how Covid19 is much less deadly as once thiught, I will skip the vaccine and instead get immunized by the actual virus.

Would you also cut the strings on your parachute halfway down, since you haven't been falling fast enough to die, so you figure you don't need the parachute?

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Seeing how Covid19 is much less deadly as once thiught, I will skip the vaccine and instead get immunized by the actual virus.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

never mind that there have been no phase 4 trials...

Well, since phase 4 begins after the vaccine is already in use by the general population, waiting for it to be done first would mean not getting it for (at least) one extra year.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

...never mind that there have been no phase 4 trials...

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Plasma. What's that? An inexpensive highly effective working vaccine you can have today from a simple doctor in a small clinic. 

One it is not a vaccine, it is only passive immunity that disappears quickly. It is not useful to prevent infections.

Two, it is not free of risks, not only is a vector for dissemination of other infections but also their effects can even be counterproductive for covid19 that complicates because of the immune system effects on the infected tissue.

Three, not every convalescent patient have antibody titers for their plasma to be even useful in the first place. Four, it is not inexpensive, specially when compared with the cost of a vaccine, it requires a lot of equipment and resources to be kept without contamination when taken, stored and applied, and treatment for a single patient can require quite a lot of it.

A vaccine for covid19 does not need to be expensive, It is perfectly possible that it ends up being effective without problems and it can be used to prevent at least complications and maybe even minor symptoms. "The power of money" makes no sense for a vaccine that prevents expensive treatments (including plasma!), specially because dirt cheap drugs like dexamethasone have perfectly good proof of effectiveness in treating the disease without any dark conspiracy doing anything to prevent it being used all over the world.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

 I have a strong feeling that data on the effectiveness of plasma is being suppressed

A strong feeling? Any evidence whatsoever?

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Plasma. What's that? An inexpensive highly effective working vaccine you can have today from a simple doctor in a small clinic. But wait! Pharmaceutical companies would prefer you get the expensive vaccine they don't have yet sometime in the future that will only be 50 percent effective. "Ah, the power of money and marketing!" I have a strong feeling that data on the effectiveness of plasma is being suppressed.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

@BurningBush: No proof whatsoever. Putin Propoganda until proven otherwise.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Wonder how much BG stands to make out of this.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

What a suprise. Seems like this was planned from the start...

Well, it has been planned from before the start actually, a very big hint would be the existence of a "Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations", which as the name indicates has the purpose of making all necessary preparations to fight important outbreaks. Making vaccines available in a fair system is indicated as a priority.

It is as surprising as seeing drug stores putting a lot of sunscreen on the shelves just at the beginning of summer.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

What a suprise. Seems like this was planned from the start...

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

A vaccine is already saving lives in Russia.

-9 ( +1 / -10 )

This is good news because without a workable vaccine we will be living with covid 19 for years to come.

If you are vulnerable with underlying health issues or old then best to isolate yourself but for others life and business must go on as there will be no more lock downs in Japan.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

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