health

Vaccine doubts spread like disease, must be taken offline: vaccine chief

16 Comments
By Tom Miles

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"In my country, social media conspiracy groups

Social media conspiracy groups... right.

So now apparently there's a big conspiracy to get people off vaccines.

Right.... Got it.

How about just letting people speak their minds and make their own choices in life.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

How about just letting people speak their minds and make their own choices in life.

Because said people are unclean and diseased. They carry sickness. They carry death.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Of course he wants them gone. Profits are crashing as a result of thousands of doctors and scientists speaking out against some vaccines and their ingredients.

And I guess the parents whose children died within hours of large vaccination doses, are just deluded.

As Burning Bush said, let people make up their own minds. Why would a vaccinated person worry about catching a disease from an unvaccinated one?

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Global Warming hype with another face. The trend is to trust what your body is telling you, not what social media & others are saying. Without getting political, if people trusted social media and known Hollywood faces and media in general, Trump today wouldn't be president. I trust people's intuition over big biz disinformation for the sake of a profit. How can you uncouple these two?

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

 I trust people's intuition

One major flaw with websites that spread counter 'misinformation', is that the owners have a financial interest to get as many people as possible visiting their sites by whatever means necessary. He's not a friend of mine but I know a guy who runs a very successful 'misinformation' website, he makes a very good living off it and he's a proper weirdo.

I wouldn't trust peoples intuition easily because people have shown themselves capable of making very stupid choices. People who decide not to vaccinate their children are highly irresponsible IMO.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Vaccinations are important but there are circumstances of real risks to individuals. The lack of information and warnings to people is the problem here. I agree that vaccinations are necessary, but doctors need to advise each patient (or their guardian) about what to do or what not to do immediately after shots are administered.

My son suffered an attack from a virus that left him partially blind in his left eye. He was 15 yrs old at the time and needed one more vaccination before attending school overseas. No-one at the hospitals could find the virus or the cause of the virus until one particular doctor mentioned that he has seen a case or two of viruses attacking babies shortly after a vaccination. Only then we realised what had happened.

Had we have been told that we should look out for anything strange occurring with my son's body over the one week period after the vaccination, we might have been able to cure him of the damage.

The point is, medical organisations need to research ways to prevent such problems in the near future, and provide enough information of the do's and don'ts for parents who are having their children vaccinated. Perhaps then and only then, will more people feel safer about vaccinations.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I do not really understand what some of the comments here are trying to say, but I do know that it is very hard for a parent to make the 'right' yes/no informed choice for their child, knowing that whichever decision they take, it might result in death or injury to that child. "Will I regret this for the rest of my life?"

0 ( +1 / -1 )

A freedom of information thingy was dont to find out is Obama's kids had been vaccinated and it turned out they had not....

1 ( +2 / -1 )

It might be helpful to list which vaccines are more important. The value of the measles vaccine is different from that of the chickenpox vaccine.

because people don't understand statistics and data

I don't fully buy that. I think most people want to be informed. Simply saying "vaccines are safe" (or "vaccines are dangerous") isn't very convincing. I'd like to know the risk of not having a particular vaccination versus the risk of having it.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

It is a shame that it is usually children who have to suffer from the lack of vaccinations, while it is the ignorance of their parents that leads to their suffering.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

And I guess the parents whose children died within hours of large vaccination doses, are just deluded.

Yes, that remains by far the most plausible explanation.

My son suffered an attack from a virus that left him partially blind in his left eye. He was 15 yrs old at the time and needed one more vaccination before attending school overseas. No-one at the hospitals could find the virus or the cause of the virus until one particular doctor mentioned that he has seen a case or two of viruses attacking babies shortly after a vaccination. Only then we realised what had happened.

What had happened? And "realised" on what evidence?

A freedom of information thingy was dont to find out is Obama's kids had been vaccinated and it turned out they had not....

So FOI laws can compel a parent to release, for public consumption, private medical information about their children? Sounds extremely fishy, even without the additional difficulty involved in providing documentary information that your child hasn't been vaccinated. On the bright side, if something's been released under FOI laws, then you won't have the least difficulty in providing proof - and not from some rubbish bottom-feeding website, either.

It might be helpful to list which vaccines are more important. The value of the measles vaccine is different from that of the chickenpox vaccine.

It wouldn't be helpful. The idea isn't to pick and choose which ones you like. The idea is that if a vaccination is part of the recommended schedule, it is considered important. There is not a pressing social need for members of the public to trade one vaccine off against another.

I'd like to know the risk of not having a particular vaccination versus the risk of having it.

If you'd actually, rather than hypothetically, like to know, you would already have informed yourself about the risk of each of the diseases being vaccinated against. So if you haven't bothered yet, start there. For example, that measles results in 1-3 fatalities per thousand cases. All of the vaccine-preventable diseases are potentially fatal, even those that people have convinced themselves are benign, like chickenpox. Additionally, there is the risk of damage resulting from complications. These figures are inescapable, and they are certainly measurable (in other words, not so small as to be statistically invisible): they constitute your risk - and the risk posed to others - if you insist on a right to be unvaccinated.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

If you'd actually, rather than hypothetically, like to know, you would already have informed yourself about the risk of each of the diseases being vaccinated against. So if you haven't bothered yet, start there.

Exactly. But where do people start - they just end up down a rabbit hole of conspiracy theories that litter the internet.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I try to (or used to) find out the risks or diseases versus the vaccination. I had my daughter vaccinated against measles when it wasn't part of the regular program. Both my kids received all the recommended vaccines when they were kids. I support vaccination programs. But I get angry at the simplistic pro-vaccine versus anti-vaccine arguments.

All of the vaccine-preventable diseases are potentially fatal, even those that people have convinced themselves are benign, like chickenpox.

And do you know why the chickenpox vaccine is not part of the recommended set, at least not in the UK? One fear is that it may increase the risk of later life chickenpox or shingles, a relatively more serous problem than childhood chicken pox. Notice I used "relatively". All diseases are potentially fatal as are all medicines. We should be more open about this and not try to hide from the data.

I know a woman in her late 50s who is a probable victim of a childhood vaccination. Wheelchair bound and with learning difficulties. I say "probable" because we can't usually know for sure whether someone's condition is a result of vaccination or from other causes. But she fits the pattern. She's basically a human sacrifice, but I suppose her sacrifice is for the greater good. How should she feel about that?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The cases of measles have risen in Western countries because of rampant migration from 3rd-World countries, NOT because of un-vaccinated citizens.

Anyway, remember when getting the measles was normal? You'd get it once and that was it. And your body was stronger for getting it. Too many nosey kidults now that think they have the right to tell you what to put in your and your children's bodies. If you are vaccinated, you shouldn't have to worry about the unvaccinated, right? Mind your own gawddam business!

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Anyway, remember when getting the measles was normal? You'd get it once and that was it. And your body was stronger for getting it.

If you don't die first, or hospitalized, or suffer encephalitis and become disabled, or infect pregnant mothers before their babies are immunized

Remember when before vaccines, the mortality rate for measles is 400-500 people die in the US every year:

"Late 19th-Century Maps Show Measles Mortality Before Vaccines"

https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/02/history-of-measles-mortality-maps-from-a-time-before-vaccines.html

between 1953 and 1963, when the measles vaccine became available, “nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age.” Yearly, “400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 4,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles.”

While late-19th-century medicine didn’t yet have a vaccine for the disease, doctors knew that it was easily transmissible. “Measles is a very infectious disease,” warned Dr. John Dewar in an 1890 book written for mothers and titled What Ails The Baby? “If a child be only taken into a room for a very short time, where another child is suffering from measles, it is almost certain to take it.” The 1898 map, second below, shows a pattern of measles deaths that is strikingly aligned with the course of the Mississippi River, illustrating how transmission could have been aided by river travel. 

And that's the US - an advanced country relative to others. Imagine the mortality rate in less advanced countries. Play Russian roulette with your loved ones

Unvaccinated people easily become carriers especially for highly transmissible diseases like measles. It doesn't take many to start a widespread

Also, children can still decide to become vaccinated once they turn 18 (or even younger) even if their parents don't approve:

"Teen defies anti-vaccine parents, gets shots"

https://fox8.com/2019/02/11/teen-defies-anti-vaccine-parents-gets-shots/

For many teenagers, turning 18 years old means celebrating at a party but for one Norwalk teen it meant going to get a slew of vaccinations he no longer needed his parents' permission to receive.

[For younger teenagers] Regulations vary from state to state, but in general, some minors can access certain treatments without parental consent. Vaccines are not always specified on this list, but in some states the law is vague enough that a minor could potentially have a legal right to a vaccination.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@albaleo

How should she feel about that?

Why ask me? I couldn't even state with confidence that she exists. Even taking that on trust, I have no information about her; for example, "fits the pattern" is meaningless, I have no idea what pattern you're talking about; and the most important factor, whether she actually suffered permanent damage from a vaccination, is completely unknown to me and unprovable by you.

@Serengoza

Anyway, remember when getting the measles was normal? 

Yes.

 You'd get it once and that was it. And your body was stronger for getting it.

Not true. It simply gave immunity from measles* - which a vaccination also provides, only far more efficiently and far more safely. Waiting to catch measles and the other range of "childhood diseases" is hopelessly ineffective, and in the vaccination era, also immensely stupid.

You have no idea when or how it's going to happen. People hit later in life (as teens or adults) by chickenpox or measles get very sick indeed. These diseases can kill or cause permanent damage, but - something that needs vaccine deniers need to be constantly reminded of - it's not simply a black-and-white choice between life and death. There is far more to measles than "It's unlikely to kill you".

It isn't better to be ill and bedridden for a couple of weeks, even if you fully recover. It isn't good to have your work or school schedule disrupted for a couple of weeks either. It isn't good to be taken down by chickenpox or measles or mumps when you're about to sit your GCSEs or your finals, or get married in front of 80 or so people who've committed to attend from various parts of the country and a handful arriving from overseas. There are all kinds of reasons why opting to randomize the time and manner in which you catch the disease is just a terrible idea. And that's before even considering the infection risk you pose to others, and the major inconvenience to schools, medical facilities, workplaces, and all the other venues that can be affected by mass outbreaks.

*In addition, while giving immunity to measles, the disease actually reduces immunity to other diseases over the subsequent two or three years. This has been shown through increased death rates among people who caught measles, corresponding very closely to numbers affected in a given year, and rising and falling with the annual incidence of measles, and an additional close correspondence between administration of the vaccine and decreased death rates.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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