Elderly people's manners increasingly deplorable

on Nov 18 someone posted a photo of an elderly woman seated on one seat, her purse and shopping bag on the seat beside her, blithely ignoring the standing throng – among which, apparently, was a pregnant woman.

It goes both ways. I have been on the train several times seeing perfectly fit and active young men and women hogging seats, even seats that are supposed to be reserved for the elderly and disabled, and the elderly people are left standing, struggling to maintain balance as the train moves along. In times like this we must speak up and ask the young ones to get off the seats. It's just the right thing to do, stand up for those that can't defend or speak up for themselves.

An elderly man sitting next to him on a train suddenly addressed him: “I have nothing to do at home. They all think I’m a nuisance, so I went out. My eyes are bad, I can’t even recognize my own brother. It’s a dangerous world. I have a knife on me…”

Not always but a lot of times, many men like this have worked all their lives giving every single pay packet to the home. Upon retirement and once they are all cashed out, the truth arrives and of course if a family treats another elderly member like this, do you expect this man to be sane and trust anyone ? He probably found out after 40+ years that his family needed him just for financial security. So he's lost it. If he was a decent hard working guy all his life, I actually feel sorry for him, and he needs some help and know there are also good caring people out there.

Problem is in this country it is very difficult to find comfort, warmth and love from someone.

Now this is not always the case, there are some bad and abusive husbands out there too so those ones should have what's coming.

I heard back in the day if a teenager or young child would misbehave, complete strangers or people from the neighborhood would discipline the child the good old fashioned way.

Just a well deserved spanking to set the child straight so he/she understands certain types of behavior is not tolerated in society.

Huh. So the elderly are taking back the night - are they more selfish, or simply not as 100% selfless as they used to be?

Back in the day, extended families meant that the elderly could be sure of being provided for just as they provided for others during their working lives and best years. This is not the case any more, it's a dog-eat-dog world, and not everybody shows the elderly the basic respect and courtesy they deserve (like giving up seats). So they are fighting back. Good for them.

Maria - did you read the article?

The old lady kept the seat from an equally (or more ?) needy person - a pregnant woman. This shows a complete lack of respect for the pregnant woman and unborn child.

Respect and courtesy are not one way. If the elderly dont show respect to others in need, then its reasonable for articles like this to question the behaviour of the oldies.

Shopping bags on the seat on a crowded train...grrrrrrrrrrrrr! I enjoy looking at their faces and questioning myself, "really?". Are they really that oblivious or just don't give a rat's derriere?

Why some people present themselves as if they have no manners could largely in part be due to their childhood upbringing. They could have been so conditioned to behave in that way that they become socially inadequate or ill-adjust when they speak or present themselves and act toward other people. It could also be a variety of bad habits and general lack of discipline that may have perpetuated this absence of common sense when in the company of or presence of others. However age does not determine how rude or polite people are but personality does determine rudeness.

Just sit on the bags. They`ll usually jump up and move them. Not supposed to be on the seats anyway.

Yup living in Tokyo has made me absolutely despise the elderly, especially the obachans. My personal favourite is answering the glaringly loud raining keitai and proceeding to engage In a full 5 min conversation at full volume. Can't it wait?!

WTF was that ? Journalism or a collection of anecdotes ? I want my 2 minutes back.

*blaringly loud ringing keitai

Maria - did you read the article?

Why yes, I did, some07791. There are 2 examples of bad behaviour, which could be equally relevant examples in an article about the bad behaviour of any age group or sex. This is not specific to the elderly - although I agree it's bad manners, not giving up your seat to someone more deserving, or using a seat as a bag rest (or otherwise having a pain-in-the-arse bag that gets in the way) is something every generation can be accused of.

This article is nothing more than some whippersnapper moaning about not being treated as special by his granny any more.

I think it is necessary to draw a distinction when talking about "the elderly" in Japan. Those children born just before or during WW2, and who lived through the trauma and uncertainty of the war, the bombings and then the hunger and uncertainty of the post-war period. Someone born when Japan surrendered would now be in their late 60's, and someone who was 10 during that bombings would be in their late 70's.

These children had a tremendously difficult and traumatic childhood. I'm not saying that this excuses their behaviour, but I think that it is important to put it in context. None of these children would have had any therapy for PTSD, and mental care of any type is severely lacking in Japan.

I enjoy talking to older people, for some reason I find their Japanese easier to understand, and many of them like telling their stories. Some of those stories are truly horrific, and so when an elderly person acts badly I think it is necessary to understand the context.

I see more bad manners from young people than I do from the elderly, and at least the elderly have some sort of excuse.

The old maybe getting crotchety after putting up with the younger generations who are growing up with the self entitlement attitude most seem to have, and the young seem to have lost their morals, respect and humanity.

Fast losing my respect for the young too when I watch the way some behave in public.

When I was a young kid my mother used to make me stand up and give my seat to the adults, now its completely reversed and the young wont stand up for anyone.

I was brought up to respect my elders and that is at the heart of this story- Manners, which todays youth are sorely lacking in. As for the rude elderly folks, swallow your pride & shrug it off to life experience!

I love old people! No more neck turning for them when pulling out of a driveway, no need to get in at the end of the line to get on the train, the stink eye!

Respect, power, responsibility and money tend to fade away with time. People have their time in the limelight when they are in control of themselves and people around them. When this light becomes dimmer and dimmer as each day passes by, in addition with darkness of ill health and loneliness looming over, it becomes harder to get in term with reality which at times can be daunting. This frustration is sort of understandable but not justifiable..

My opinion is that the two examples sited in this article are hardly a successful indictment of an entire generation of people. There are rude people of all ages. Just because you meet one of a certain age does not mean they are representative of that age group.

Most people I meet are actually pretty nice. I prefer to think of people that way.

An elderly man dropped his cane on the train, and either wouldn't or couldn't pick it up for himself, so he pressed the emergency button. I wasn't too thrilled about being late for work that day.

A large hospital near my home has experienced a serious problem with elderly people using ambulances as taxis.

An elderly lady (probably half senile) has been setting off fire alarms in my apartment complex.

It's hard to imagine young people doing stuff like that.

Like I have been saying for a while, you long timers sure you wanna grow old in Japan, I sure dont

It's hard to imagine young people doing stuff like that.

Yes, it is hard to imagine young people being senile or elderly.

society in general is going down the tubes. from the young to the old, people have less and less manners. but if you think japan is bad, then you gotta visit china.

society in general is going down the tubes

People have been saying this ever since there have been societies to say it about.

I can't count the number of times some old fella or lady has just barged their way through to get to the escalator only to stand in the middle and let nobody passed. And, I too have been abused by the elderly for no better reason than being a foreigner on 'their' train. Sadly, many of the old folk have quite a few screws loose and tend be very aggressive. I remember seeing one old bloke going nuts on the train screaming at everybody to move closer instead of hogging the whole seat. I guess he was right, but his actions were quite irrational. I don't think it is so much their manners that are getting worse. I think it is their emotional stability. For many of the elderly, their life sux! Their pensions are being cut (if they have a pension at all) and there is very little assistance from the community or government. I think I'd be a grumpy old goat too!

My problem with this article is that it suggests this is some sort of recent phenomenon. I've lived here over 20 years and have often times found myself completely gobsmacked at the lack of manners shown by the elderly, who will then turn around and complain about how rude the young people are. My response is usually "Where do you think those young people learned to be so rude?"

the problem is living in a crowd there will always be someone that is rude and after putting up with it a while it feels like there is no advantage in being polite.

I don't think they're getting any worse. There were quite a few rude old people 20 years ago too.

There are too many generalizations on this thred to count. Here's mine:

The fear of societal degradation is as old as society itself. If anything, things are getting better. Sure there are some old people with bad manners, just as there always were. The only difference now is that there are more old people in general, and they are thus easier to notice.

Young people really do complain about everything these days.

Homer simpson got it right. "Dad, you've done a lot of great things, but you're a very old man, and old people are useless."

Ill-mannered young sods generally become ill-mannered old sods.

I agree to a certain extent. I live in a rural area and the local seniors are the ones trashing the environment. They dump electrical goods, car batteries, tyres,animals and god knows what else in the woods and sea around here..now that is what I consider ill-mannered!

I am reminded of that frequently occuring image...

An obachan walks past the people lined up at Shinjuku station for the next train.. She wanders around on the platform looking a bit lost, like she might be in the wrong place.. A train pulls up, and she dives into the nearest door, before the queued up people, pushing the people getting off, out of the way.

shanabelle, they most likely can't shell out the 4,000-5,000 yen per item that recycling requires.

A sad state of affairs in Japan... :(

When was Japan famous for respecting the elderly?

Old people in Japan? Sorry I hate them. Some them are nice (usually the one who have bothered to really go abroad and discover another country and I am not talking about the express and confined tours that a lot of elderly people do here) but most of them are trash. Really.

They have bad manners (anyone went to a nice italian restaurant with elderly people around?), they are arrogant and they are often aggressive if you dare show any resistance to their will or view. They are just terrible. They just think that they are always right whatever they do even if they are wrong. If you are younger than them they will consider you as trash. They are incredibly impolite, often very rude, they have unexpressive faces (or otherwise angry faces) to the point you just want to escape far from them.

I feel depressed that I need to pay for their pensions, particularly because most of them don't really need one, they have monopolized the wealth of this country and they are in the same time ruining it because of their number. And if you think that Tokyo is bad, come to see them here in Sapporo, they are worse.

And Sapporo sometimes even look like already a giant open air elderly house. Depressing....

@ daito_hak

Finally, someone telling it like it really is! And a thousand fold for those living in Tokyo!

Everyone take note!

I dont ride train that often but when I do and run into someone like that, I do quite often take a pic and put it up , or tell to stand up if its really necessary ...too bad its strangers that need to educate those people

I like most of the old people in Japan. I think their easy to talk with and work for; they have a kind of toughness that you dont see in the younger ones. Some of the old women are full of self hate, I dont like them, and some ojisan that complains 24/7 are not easy to be around. I find the younger Japanese to be weird. The girls with the duck pucker lip kawaii look, or dressed like a cartoon character, the pointy shoe freaky guys on the train. I dont get that. The trains in Japan are unsafe and unsanitary. To pack that many people in one train car is insane.

WakarimasenDec. 03, 2013 - 02:02PM JST Homer simpson got it right. "Dad, you've done a lot of great things, but you're a very old man, and old people are useless."

I couldn't disagree more. I still ask my father for advice, and it is always spot-on... even if I don't recognise it until after I've done something stupid. When my grandfather was alive he used to be very sparing with his words, but when he said something I learnt to listen, because in just a few words he could express ideas so profound that it took me decades to understand their full import.

If you don't value old people, with a life-time of experience and levels of expertise that you cannot even begin to fathom, then you aren't listening hard enough.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the level of a civilisation can easily judged by how we treat those least able to defend themselves. Children, prisoners, the elderly. What this thread shows me most elegantly is that civilisation is regressing, not advancing. The problem here isn't old people, the problem here is young people who think they know everything and a culture of youth, that fails to comfort, protect and cherish old people. I am hardly surprised that some people feel threatened and confused in such a society. Don't look to blame old people, take a long hard look in the mirror and you'll find who's to blame.

@Frungy

Please save us this kind of philosophical non sense. Can we just say the things as they are. This idea that a certain part of the population should be more respected is plain wrong. Anyone in a societey deserves respect regardless of the age, social conditions or whatever else.

And the problem of the elderly in Japan (maybe somewhere else but I believe the problem is quite obvious in Japan) is that they don't get it. They aren't respectfull to people and particularly to young people. Mutual respect is in both directions, you can't expect them to be respected with such behavior. It can't work.....

For me, although it sounds cruel, the issue is that with young people behaving badly I can somehow tolerate it because they are, after all, the face of the future with boundless potential, and it is worthwhile investing in them for this reason alone. When it comes to the elderly, however, I see no point in making any kind of investment. They've had their day in the sun. Let others stand in the light. What kind of society is it that treats only its elderly kindly and generously? A dying society, that's what.

@ Tessa, wonder if you will feel the same when old and possibly alone. Dang it, some of the things peoplebpost here make me feel kinda angry.

If and when I'm old and alone, I'll only have myself to blame. I fully accept that.

Quite right. This is old news. Traditionally, the oldies were the bullies in the family. A lot of the current oldies are bitter because they had to take it and cannot give it back in the modern Japanese family. I well remember the old ladies who rammed their fists into your back to make you move faster in a crowded line. That was in Nagoya. Maybe that sort of behavior is confined to Nagoya. I haven't seen it in years.

Commuter trains are bad places to draw generalization because everyone behaves like an animal there. Ditto on the street and on the road.

I do know and have known oldies who have an acute social conscience and concern for peace, democracy and human rights. I've know the other kind too: totalitarian in thought and deed. I can tell you stories.

One must be careful about making generalities based on particular situations.

@Disillusioned 'Their pensions are being cut ( if they have a pension at all )' If that's a reason for bad manners among the elderly, just imagine the post-bubble generation in retirement.

daito_hakDec. 03, 2013 - 08:51PM JST Please save us this kind of philosophical non sense. Can we just say the things as they are. This idea that a certain part of the population should be more respected is plain wrong. Anyone in a societey deserves respect regardless of the age, social conditions or whatever else.

Did I say that anywhere? No. I said that they deserved to be comforted, protected and cherished. That you seem to be confusing a little human compassion for someone who's going through a difficult time in their life with disrespect for you tells me that you're you're about as self-centered as it is possible for a human being to be.

@Fungry

Keep your judgement towards people for yourself, I hate people who suddenly think of themselves of some sort of psychologist on some forum on internet.

And since you seem to be driven by dogma rather than seeing the facts, I suggest that you also keep your good feelings for yourself. The people you claim to need comfort, protect, bla, bla are most of them incredibly greedy. Come back to earth please....

I remember a 50 yr old man at the gym began literally screaming at me in broken english in the sports club sauna. I didn't use a sweat mat because no one washes them and 2 i hardly even see Japanese use them...

I tried ignoring... Then he pushed the back of my head....

So i stood and beat him up and down that sauna... Naked.

He called the police and as soon as they got there... He acted as the poor little victim ravaged by the foreign monster... This was May 2013...

I don't even want to get into all of the racism at the police station....

But yeah.... Just let the old people terrorize japan... Because if you defend yourself... You are wrong and they are right....

I agree with Frungy. The bile people are spitting out on this thread, either through entitlement or just for kicks, is indicative of the selfishness of younger generations, and casual racism of many posters.

The elderly, according to some people here, have outlived their usefulness (after having worked hard all their adult lives to build a successful and secure country / family, and are now expected to put up and shut up.

People ignore the elderly all the time - impatient passers-by knock them aside, able-bodied but lazy commuters sit in seats reserved for them and then keep their eyes shut so's to ignore them further, and their complaints are disregarded as being the querulous whines of useless people past their prime.

And what do you do when your presence is ignored and your opinions and feelings disregarded? You make a noise, make yourself heard. Good for them.

You want an elderly person to put her heavy bags on her frail knees, or drop them to the floor where she may not be able to lift them again, or put them on the upper shelf that she cannot reach? Then help her, or give up your own seat, you lazy, over-privileged ass.

White_ShinobiDec. 04, 2013 - 08:51AM JST I remember a 50 yr old man at the gym began literally screaming at me in broken english in the sports club sauna. I didn't use a sweat mat because no one washes them and 2 i hardly even see Japanese use them...

So, let me get this straight. You weren't using a sweat mat, which is just good manners. Did it ever occur to you that the old guy probably also yelled at Japanese people for not doing this? No? Well, there you go. He was in the right, you were in the wrong.

I tried ignoring... Then he pushed the back of my head....

So, the old guy tries to communicate in English (which he isn't very good at)... and you ignore him like a rude little punk. You don't turn around, apologise and acknowledge that you're in the wrong, but that you've noticed they don't clean the sweat mats and you've concerned about catching something from them... instead you just ignore him like you're God Almighty. So far you're not looking good.

Okay, then he does something bad too. He pushes the back of your head. I note you say "pushes", not "hits", not "strikes". He's just trying to get your attention. It was rude, but then you were being rude too, so fair play I say.

So i stood and beat him up and down that sauna... Naked.

... and you take a single push to get your attention as license to "beat" the old guy? Wow. I'd suggest an anger management class... and a nice long spell in prison.

He called the police and as soon as they got there... He acted as the poor little victim ravaged by the foreign monster... This was May 2013...

He was correct. You started the entire thing by not using a sweat mat, you escalated the thing by ignoring the old guy and not explaining to him why you weren't using the sweat map, you then escalated the situation again by turning a simple push into a fist-fight. You constantly and consistently escalated the situation. You could have just walked out of the sauna. You could have explained yourself, and he would probably have calmed down, listened and acknowledged your concerns about the potential for fungus and other stuff on the mats... he would also probably have shown you how to wash the mats yourself (which is how things are often done in Japan) or explained your concerns to the owners of the gym.

Instead you turned a potentially positive situation into an incredibly negative one.

I don't even want to get into all of the racism at the police station....

I agree with the police. You seem to be confirming every single negative "gaijin" stereotype. You're unable to apologise even when you're wrong, you're unable to manage your anger, you're unable to see that the type of extreme violence you practiced is completely unacceptable in Japan. Even back home this conduct would be unacceptable.

But yeah.... Just let the old people terrorize japan... Because if you defend yourself... You are wrong and they are right....

... You weren't defending yourself. For it to be "self-defence" the old man would have had to have posed some sort of threat. A push isn't a threat. He didn't leave a mark on you. He's an old man. You could have just walked away. You were in the wrong here, and yet you don't even seem to have enough self-awareness to realise that fact.

The problem here wasn't the old man, it was you.

Oh, and to other commentors, bear in mind that there are two sides to every story. This is White_Shinobi's version, and even in his version he doesn't look good. If we had the old man's version to compare it to, and then find a middle-ground I'm pretty sure White_Shinobi would come out looking even worse.

My "暴走老人" story: I was on the Sobu line and my train was just arriving at Kinshicho station. On the platform was this old guy in his 60's who stood DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THE DOOR. I was wondering if he was really serious, but when the train door opened, he didn't make any effort to get out of the way, and if fact, he tried to get on just as the doors were opening. Rather than going around him, I shoulder checked him into oblivion. I have no regrets.

There are good and bad in all groups within society. As a foreigner in Japan though, you get some very strange receptions from some old people. In Australia, a lot of old people still hate Japan and Japanese with a passion and will say racist things to Japanese tourists. I get that same vibe in Japan. Some of them still treat non Japanese with disrespect, so I find it hard to treat them with the respect I would normally give the elderly.

White_Shinobi, I had a similar experience with an old person in a gym in Japan. I had just been for a swim and as happens when you are in water, I got wet. When I went back to the change rooms, I sat down on the change room bench and a bit of water dripped underneath me.

This old guy came over and started yelling at me and rolling his Rs in the same manner a yakuza speaks to someone or an angry school teacher talks to his worst students because I had made a bit of a puddle in front of his locker. I didn't understand all that he was saying, but got most of it, including where he said, 'This is not your country,' so I replied in a similarly disrespectful manner. I told him it was a public place and people normally get wet when they are in a pool. I also told him not to talk to me in the manner in which he was talking to me.

The angry old man didn't understand what I was saying, but he did not appreciate it. I assumed that in his day he was some sort of low level manager who got where he got in life by yelling at people and intimidating people - there are plenty of elderly types like that who no longer have power, but still have the attitude.

In the end he looked like he was about to pop he was so mad. He started saying some more racist crap about how this was not my country and I should be subservient to him. In the end he got up close and pushed me, probably waiting for me to hit him or something. Given that I am 6'3 and over 100kg and this guy would have been lucky to be 5'2, I just laughed at him. I have heard too many horror stories about foreigners who have stood up for themselves over here...

Some old people in Japan need to learn to relax. They are stuck in the hectic salary man mindset they lived for so long.

...when the train door opened, he didn't make any effort to get out of the way, and if fact, he tried to get on just as the doors were opening. Rather than going around him, I shoulder checked him into oblivion. I have no regrets.

It didn't occur to you that the old guy might not be 100% on top of things mentally? Older people are often a bit slow. A bit of patience and empathy go a long way to keeping things pleasant between people. Your action had exactly the opposite effect, and, if I'd acted in a similar way, I certainly wouldn't come on JT bragging about it, even anonymously.

I'd actually be pretty ashamed.

Rude elderly people? That's nothing new to me, however it's become more common over time, especially since my latest move. The funny thing is, I came from a really rough town with a shockingly high crime rate, where the elderly by and large where polite. Now I live in an area which (according to the propeganda) is home to no shortage of "lovely people." Really? I never received racial abuse until I moved out here. I never thought I'd regret the decision to allow my firearms license to expire and hand in my three handguns. But then I moved house. Verbal abuse is a daily occurence. Threats of violence and death are regular too. And most of this hostility comes from people in their 50's and over. I've given up trying to be polite to them, that only seems to make them angrier. It's disgusting. Yet my dear old mum seems to be completely blind to the situation. Somehow she avoids the hostility and racism, while I get the full brunt. Must be because I'm "a typical Essex lad." The only thing Essex about me these days is my accent, and the occasional habit of street talk. I don't slouch around in a hoody, smoking weed and stabbing people. I never thought I'd miss Essex until I moved out here. I used to liken my hometown to Hell. Now I live somewhere worse than Hell. To paraphrase Chronicles of Riddick: "If I owned this place and Hell, I'd rent out this place, and live in Hell."

But no, I'm no stranger to rude elderly folk, and I've watched it become more commonplace as I've grown up and moved around.

particularly because most of them don't really need one, they have monopolized the wealth of this country

Really?

Thank you, Maria and Frungy. Cripes, this thread is depressing. Shinobi's post, though "wins" the thread for the most hideous self-righteous comment.

You wash off your OWN sauna mat. Everybody takes their own back out with them and washes them off in the showers. And, you ARE wrong. Beating someone isn't justified. It's nothing to brag about.

Aussie, you quite possibly missed a notice somewhere about where to dry off before you went into the locker room. I go to a gym now that doesn't have a pool, but at my previous gym no one made puddles of water on the floor in front of the lockers.

Wow, so many courageous stories of standing up to old Japanese men! What tough guys you all are! Based on my personal experience, the best way to deal with angry old people is to speak in an extra polite way (ie too polite for the situation), but look at them straight in the eye, never glancing away. They'll back down soon enough.

Seems the problem isn't so much the deplorable manners of elderly people as it is the deplorable attitude of the tough-guy Essex boys and gym Adonises.

I told him it was a public place and people normally get wet when they are in a pool. I also told him not to talk to me in the manner in which he was talking to me.

While his yelling was totally inappropriate, fitness gyms generally have a sign telling members to dry themselves off before entering the locker area. This is mostly to prevent slipping. It is also good manners.

I can honestly say I have experienced a lot of these people on the trains. Japan didn't seem this way 12 years ago when I first visited here.

Got a new one - I saw an old guy answer his cell phone... AT THE URINAL. YES, HE WAS STILL "GOING"...

Or another yesterday spitting... ON THE CARPET OF OUR BUILDING.

Could go on for hours... I don't see the connection between outright bad manners and suffering from post-war trauma as a child. There is simply NO EXCUSE for bad manners. None.

I've seen enough of old women elbowing their way around the supermarket, pushing ahead of queues, hogging elevators and slamming doors in peoples' faces to be sick of the elderly here. Just mean, selfish old bags who have never had to work a day outside the home and don't know what it is like to be - as the Japanese people put it - 'be in society'.

No matter what anyone says, the manners of everyone on the train in this country is deplorable...

Don't think it's elderly or young people as it is just "people."

I've seen all ages be complete morons either selfishly or obliviously when it comes to manners.

See elderly people do all kinds of stupid in the train and then go to Makudo and see kids leave piles of trays stacked high with garbage on the table. Housewives, salarymen, you name it.

I got to give it the elderly here though, they get very creative with their rudeness. Had an old lady skip a whole line of people at the ticket gate (I was next in line) in the morning rush. When I called her out for being so rude (shitsure na!) she turned around and was said "gomen nasai" like it was an accident to skip 30 people!

Yes, people of all ages everywhere can be rude, mean and nasty. However, I do not for the life understand the entitlement of some of the old goats around here. Which came first, people not standing up and giving their seats to the elderly because the elderly fight, shove people out of the way and refuse to line up for seats or elderly fighting, shoving people out of the way and refusing to line up because no one gives them seats?

The youth are poorly mannered? Really? Whose fault is that? The parents and grandparents who raised them to behave that way. I feel sorry for the young folks here. They get blamed and told off for everything when in fact, the people I see with the worst manners and indeed older folks who should know better and ought to be setting an example for the younger folks to follow. I am more than happy to stand up for someone who needs a seat but I am not happy to be elbowed and stomped on while some old person shoves their way onto the train in order to get said seat.

I was on the train a few weeks ago and saw a bunch of elderly guys who had clearly just been hiking. They took up all the silver seats, had their crap everywhere and were completely oblivious to the older women who should've been sitting down. Sorry lads but if you can hike up mountains, you don't get the honor of the silver seats and make someone else, who is in need, stand. "I" stood up and gave her my seat instead.

And in which, there shouldn't be silver seats. Get up and give your seat to someone who needs it, damn it.

Oh, where do I start on this one

I've observed that people in general have forgotten to use the word "sumimasen" on trains, they almost all just shove past you these days, and oldsters are the worst. I prefer to be old fashioned.

The top annoying obasan trick when getting on to trains is to plant themselves right in the middle of the door space on the platform, rather than standing to one side to let people off. Why? Because they want an empty seat, any seat, and they aren't letting anyone else get it. Nor do they care at all that people are still getting off. Most of them move like lightning, demonstrating that they don't actually need a seat at all.

On the streets, it is invariably the old boys who smoke walking around, or standing on 'no smoking' signs while they do so. Classy. It's their right to poison everyone else rather than change their habits, after all. Mention the fact that they are breaking the rules, though, and they'll look at you like you've just spat on them.

The whole trend is a good motivator, though - poor behaviour just encourages me ever more NOT to behave like that, to use manners and have a little charm and good humour. Though at times, it's difficult.

Frunge glad you got so much out of knowing your oldies. The source of the quote should have been an indicator as to the seriousness of my comment.

Picture yourself with 1/2 your vision (clarity as well as acuity), then picture yourself with 40% less range of motion in your joints, perhaps a bent back from compression fractures, multiple painful joints, and perhaps a 30% loss in hearing. How cheerful would you be? Add in throngs of younger people who can walk twice as fast and do, acting like you're the biggest pain in the arse they've ever seen.

Now, how cheerful are you?

No offense Himajin, but that's not my fault. Someone's poor health (especially from horrible habits - sitting Japanese style comes to mind when I think of the knee problems I see in this country) does not mean you get a free card to be a tool. Society tends to treat elderly the way they do because of stereotypes. Ones that they've created and or escalated. I have no problem ignoring an old lady on the train carrying huge bags from a department store. You have the strength to walk around and shop all day (on a pension you didn't work for) and now you're "tired." Sorry, ZERO sympathy.

The obaasans in my neighborhood are the worst. Young and working people are perfectly mannered. It's the aged, especially female, that park their bikes directly in front of entrances, never look where they're going, and even steal plants that aren't chained to the building. Aside from these issues, I wonder if the next generation will have the same expensive benefits that old people today enjoy. But I guess it's the fault of young people who are so much less politically active than the old.

Sorry, ZERO sympathy.

And, I hope the world treats you in the same fashion when you get to be that age.

You have the strength to walk around and shop all day (on a pension you didn't work for) and now you're "tired." Sorry, ZERO sympathy.

Absolutely agree with you. And while we're on the topic, would it hurt the elderly to avoid rush hour trains? It's not like they're in a desperate hurry to get anywhere, right?

I think it's society in general that's on the decline in terms of manners -- relative to the way things used to be, of course. Young people just as much as the old recline of the seats, leave bags in front of doors or beside them, and talk on phones loudly or play ring-tones, etc. The thing is that is not all THAT much changed, whereas the decline in manners among seniors is far more noticeable. What I notice most, aside from them putting all their shopping bags on the seats around them, is not waiting for people to get off the trains before they storm in for a seat, and shouting loudly to one another, or not using manner mode on their phones, spitting in public all over the place, etc. Still not nearly as bad as in China or with the Azuma in SKorea (although it should be noted young people are a LOT more inclined there to get up and give up a seat to someone even only slightly their senior), but it's getting there.

Hey, all those here who are so unkind, unthinking, and lack compassion for the elderly, where is the fountain of youth you have access to? If you haven't found it yet, you'd better pray that you do, otherwise you may risk being treated as you have treated others. Good luck.

I love to hear people who think they'll never get old talk....

You'd be fine with people talking about your parents like this?

When a oldie looks at me for too long, I stare back and they back off.

Oh if you want a seat, just put your hands in your pockets...and walk super close to them when there sitting down. Kind of stare at them and make them uncomfortable and watch them run away.

I am a nice person, but I don't take crap from people, even old people. If they want to be rude, they can taste their own medicine.

These rude people can be old and young, but I just hate it when the older generation nag on as if it's only the younger generation who have nasty habits. More often that not, it's old men who litter (and piss in public). My relatives and I were on the train once and they were marvelling at how clean Japan was. And then the wretched ojiisan sitting opposite me started dropping peanuts all over my feet and then just threw all his garbage underneath the seat. And please, can these ojiisans wait until they get home before drinking alcohol, and not do it on the trains.

Yes, it's worse in China. But you know what? I don't live in China, so I don't give a toss. I live in Japan.

Shallotes:

It's the aged, especially female, that park their bikes directly in front of entrances, never look where they're going,

This is how I dealt with the problem. I don't know whose bike it was, but in the cycle parking space of a shopping mall, someone parked their bike right at the entrance and I couldn't get in. Literally dumped there. I lifted it and put it somewhere at the back the parking area. There must have been over a thousand bikes there (and each one was parked properly).

Yes, it's worse in China. But you know what? I don't live in China, so I don't give a toss. I live in Japan.

And I usually add for good measure "and I pay taxes in Japan, too."

Oh if you want a seat, just put your hands in your pockets...and walk super close to them when there sitting down.

That's not 'taking crap', that's dishing it out. You, presumably able-bodied, stand over the elderly until they give up their seats?

You're not impressing anyone, with your tales of daring bullying of the aged...

would it hurt the elderly to avoid rush hour trains? It's not like they're in a desperate hurry to get anywhere, right?

Yes! Segregation and curfews for the elderly! Fabulous idea!

Following this 'logic', why not specify travel hours for specific age groups / members of society? Hmm...

School and university students between first train and 7am.

Full-time employed men from 7 to 8am.

Full-time employed women- well, there shouldn't be any of those, so scrap that.

PT workers from 8 to 9am.

Homemakers, non-pregnant, no toddlers or prams, from 9 to 10am.

Pregnant, with prams or young children from 10 to 11am.

OAPs between 11 and 12pm, so they can get to their hospital appointments.

Free-for-all between noon and 1pm - give those elbows and knees a workout!

OAPs should be heading back home between 1 and 2pm.

Pregnant, with prams or young children from 2 to 3pm.

Homemakers, non-pregnant, no toddlers or prams, from 3 to 4pm - time to crack on with the housework.

Another free-for all between 4 and 5pm - get home before sundown.

School children up to age 15 should be heading back between 5 and 6pm.

High school and university students from 6 to 7pm.

P/T employees between 7 and 8pm.

Full-time employed men between 8 and 9pm.

Anyone travelling after 9pm does so at their own risk, and is asking for whatever harrassment they get.

Yes. Segregation is the only way to make public transportation civilised.

I've a better idea: priority seats for hardworking taxpayers, future taxpayers and their guardians (an increasingly rare breed these days). Everybody else? Travel on your own time.

From my experiences, I am just completely shocked at how rude the elderly are in Tokyo. They push people out of the way, shove, can't wait for anything, in a queue they get in front of you, and they have to be first in everything or my gosh...seriously. They never say sorry for what they're doing to others. I've never ever seen the elderly in England act that way. I'm just guessing it's a lack of manners. Everyone rushes to point out that Japan is such a polite country but have no idea about the reality, and lack of manners. I say just take everything you hear with a pinch of salt!

Maria, not sure why the nastiness. Rush hour is really no place for those who may get hurt or trampled on - that includes elderly and babies/kids. If they don't "have" to be there, best they don't go at a time when people are rushing around - and lacking manners! I for one don't understand why the SAHM and older folks insist on going out in the chaos of it if they don't have to.

Shall I add that in some cities, the retired folks get to ride trains and subways for free?

**Picture yourself with 1/2 your vision (clarity as well as acuity), then picture yourself with 40% less range of motion in your joints, perhaps a bent back from compression fractures, multiple painful joints, and perhaps a 30% loss in hearing. How cheerful would you be? Add in throngs of younger people who can walk twice as fast and do, acting like you're the biggest pain in the arse they've ever seen.

Now, how cheerful are you?**

And picture yourself being a salaryman/woman who has been ranted at all day by a crap boss, knows he/she is going home to get nagged at either by a spouse/parent in law/kid. Imagine doing this while sick and tired but know that you can't take the day off work. It is great that you have compassion for the elderly but where is their compassion? This is the issue we're discussing.

And picture yourself being a salaryman/woman who has been ranted at all day by a crap boss, knows he/she is going home to get nagged at either by a spouse/parent in law/kid. Imagine doing this while sick and tired but know that you can't take the day off work. It is great that you have compassion for the elderly but where is their compassion? This is the issue we're discussing.

Applause! And might I add that the subway line that I use regularly appeals to its rush hour passengers to try to change their commuting times by as little as 20 minutes, in order to alleviate the morning crush. Now, if working people can do it, why can't non-working pensioners and SAHMs do same? It's not like they don't have all day to take care of their stuff, unlike the rest of us.

knows he/she is going home to get nagged at either by a spouse/parent in law/kid.

If you put up with it , it's your fault (general 'you') Kid!? That would be the day.

This is the issue we're discussing.

I really don't know why people expect to be patted on the back for working...you're doing it to pay for the roof over your own head, the food you eat, and the clothes you wear. Atarimae deshou....what makes you so special because you have a job?

You didn't answer the question, despite mimicking my post, well?

Tessa, I'd love to hear from you when you're about 75, and people are barking at you to get your slow ass out of the way, and telling you stay home because you're old.

All of you, I pity your parents.

I really don't know why people expect to be patted on the back for working...you're doing it to pay for the roof over your own head, the food you eat, and the clothes you wear.

I don't expect to be patted on the back for that (I get that in the workplace, thank you very much). I do expect others to pull their weight, or at least strive to stop making daily life so difficult for those of us who are paying their pensions/housekeeping allowances. Is that so bad?

Tessa, I'd love to hear from you when you're about 75, and people are barking at you to get your slow ass out of the way, and telling you stay home because you're old.

Sure. Hang around for another 40 years and see for yourself.

I was an international university student in the early 1970s in Tokyo. At that time, a humorous quip was that Japan had two priviledged classes: children and old people. This especially applied to tolerated subway and densha behavior. The kids climbed all over the seats, oblivious to the needs of others. The obaasans (almost always significantly shorter than the younger adults in those days) pushed others in the small of the back with their palms, if not the points of their umbrellas. These behaviors contrasted so much with all the others on the trains because all the others were extremely patient with each other.

I've had some bad moments with oldies, especially one in this apartment building I live in, but in general everyone is pretty nice to each other, and I include the insane Sobu-sen I take daily. Enjoyed the anedotes and comments...thanks for the chuckles...and "sumimasen"...

At that time, a humorous quip was that Japan had two priviledged classes: children and old people. This especially applied to tolerated subway and densha behavior. The kids climbed all over the seats, oblivious to the needs of others.

I've never understood why kids are given so much priority. When I was young, children either stood or offered the seats to the elderly, or sat on their parent's lap if no other space available. They are spoilt rotten here. Children and shopping bags are treated like royalty here.

Those women simply remind me of "obatarians." The word was first used in the mid-80s, but the phenomenon it refers to apparently dates much farther back. For those who read Japanese, see http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%AA%E3%83%90%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3

Hang around for another 40 years and see for yourself.

Oh no....I want to see how YOU feel being treated like a blight on society, seeing as you're advocating such behavior. Some people can't put themselves in others' shoes at all, and only realize when it happens to them. You seem to be one such person.

or at least strive to stop making daily life so difficult

A few oldies on a train platform make your life so difficult? You need some stamina!

If they don't "have" to be there, best they don't go at a time when people are rushing around

And if they are there, at such a busy time, it obviously means they do have somewhere to be, doesn't it.

I do expect others to pull their weight,

They have done so, for longer than most of you posters have been alive, and certainly much, much longer than you have been in this country. Show some respect. Because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

If you put up with it , it's your fault (general 'you') So I guess we can say the same for those lederly who get batted around during rush hour, eh?

what makes you so special because you have a job? Is anyone here claiming that? Heck, why don't we all quit and see who pays for the pension system and a health care system that is currebtly being abused by the elderly.

No Maria, it doesn't. They could wait an hour and THEN line up at the hospital for a needless check up that will cost taxpayers money. They could wait an hour to go and visit a friend.

I'm laughing as Tessa said wait around and you're arguing with her about that Hima? Guess you really are Hima is you're aguring over her agreeing to allowing you to see how see feels at that age.

And how cheerful will I be? No idea if I will be alive but basing life on my grandmother's, pretty damn happy.

I hope those of you who begrudge the elderly their pensions haven't had a baby here, and if you have, I hope you didn't accept the govt. money - a handout to new parents, basically. Why should my tax money go on your pointless breeding, and your massive prams? What have you ever done for the rest of us in Japan? Nothing, compared to what the elderly Japanese have done all their lives.

what makes you so special because you have a job? Is anyone here claiming that?

Yes. Read the posts before you comment.

Rush hour is really no place for those who may get hurt or trampled on - that includes elderly and babies/kids

Everyone knows this, no one more so than the elderly and those with babies/kids. Could be the ones who are braving the rush hour regardless are doing it because they do have a reason?

So I guess we can say the same for those lederly who get batted around during rush hour, eh?

You do this all the time. I ask something and you give some wise acre answer that has nothing to do with what I said....I said that anyone who is worried about going home to a nagging kid (your words) has a problem. It's a silly example if you're trying to make a case about how hard workers have it...your personal child/in-law troubles have nothing to do with how hard working people have it.

Is anyone here claiming that?

Well...

I've a better idea: priority seats for hardworking taxpayers, future taxpayers and their guardians (an increasingly rare breed these days)

would it hurt the elderly to avoid rush hour trains? It's not like they're in a desperate hurry to get anywhere, right?

"And picture yourself being a salaryman/woman who has been ranted at all day by a crap boss, knows he/she is going home to get nagged at either by a spouse/parent in law/kid. Imagine doing this while sick and tired but know that you can't take the day off work. It is great that you have compassion for the elderly but where is their compassion? This is the issue we're discussing"

" or at least strive to stop making daily life so difficult for those of us who are paying their pensions/housekeeping allowances. Is that so bad?"

You all blather on about how you pay taxes, support the system, make a difference, blah-bitty-blah...when you're just working for yourself. To put food on your table and a roof over your head. I don't see Mother Theresa here anywhere. People work to eat, and taxes are compulsory, you're not paying them out of the goodness of your heart, for the benefit of mankind. On this type of thread, and the SAHM threads you all are beginning to sound ridiculous in your insistence that your working lifestyle is to be lauded. Everyone works because they have to.

SAHM threads

whats SAHM?

Hima, I'm so, so sorry that I can give you only one thumbs-up - and already it seems it's been cancelled out by some hard-working non-mum. :-)

whats SAHM?

Stay At Home Mum

Yes. Read the posts before you comment.

Care to post that comment then as I clearly missed the "I have a job, I'm special" comment.

Why should my tax money go on your pointless breeding, and your massive prams? What have you ever done for the rest of us in Japan? Nothing, compared to what the elderly Japanese have done all their lives. Haha! Usually I am not a defender of parents but you do realise they are creating future taxpayers of your pension and health care, right? What they've done? My grandmother in law didn't lift a finger all her life in terms of paid work but she had two kids, like many of the posters on here. I don't think that is doing anything special compared to many. No one here is saying that old people deserve to be abused or knocked around, what we're saying is that their manners, in some cases, are horrible and could be a lot better.

Hima, I have zero child/inn-law issues but many others out there do. You seem to want to put the elderly on a pedistal all while ignoring others. The bottom line is, treat people well, have good manners, be nice. Is that so hard for the elderly to do? You seem to think they are beyond and above being decent to others. Why you give them a get out of jail free card for being nasty is beyond me.

I don't "have" to work. I actually married a great man with a great job. I work because I enjoy working - and I make a difference in many lives. I am also more than happy to pay taxes to help people who are in need. It is a shame that you seem to think that anyone who disagrees with your opinion must be self and nasty. Manners. Old, young, SAHM, salary worker... that is all that is comes down to. Same you don't seem to understand that.

ah, thank you cleo

Everyone works because they have to.

No, I work mainly because I cannot imagine not working and contributing to society - I love my job, and would be happy to do it until the day I die - but also because I'm not willing to trade security for self-respect (which is what an awful lot of married women seem to do).

As for taxes, I regard paying them as paying rent to the country that I live in, and have no objection to doing so. What I do object to is paying for freeloaders with bad manners and huge entitlement complexes, and unfortunately a lot of them nowadays seem to be elderly folk, quite a few of whom have done absolutely nothing in their lives to deserve their free health care, pensions, bus passes and access to public facilities. Especially the women.

Most of the Japanese people I know, at least those under the age of 45, feel exactly the same way as I do. Ask around, you may be in for a surprise.

MariaDec. 06, 2013 - 01:39PM JST I hope those of you who begrudge the elderly their pensions haven't had a baby here, and if you have, I hope you didn't accept the govt. money - a handout to new parents, basically. Why should my tax money go on your pointless breeding, and your massive prams? What have you ever done for the rest of us in Japan? Nothing, compared to what the elderly Japanese have done all their lives.

This has absolutely no connection with this topic. I have kids in Japan. I work. My wife works. My kid has even done a pretty amazing job at internationalizing her school (all the kids in her school speak a lot more English!)... although sadly she doesn't get a paid for her English teaching work.

As for "pointless breeding". Umm.. Japan, inverse population pyramid, massive pension fund crash looming for you if there aren't more future workers... Those kids are Japan's future.

Your blind attack on everyone with kids is not appreciated, is off topic and is just plain nasty and ill-informed. Go away.

****Oh, No! Hell's Grannies!

rudeness is to be expected when you cram 35 million people into one city.

This is hilarious why talk about your future? We all will fall into this very same group one day!

@Frungy - sorry you missed the deliberate irony in my comparison. Never mind, I can be a bit subtle. Let me explain.

One poster here (let's call themTossa) thinks the elderly shouldn't take unnecessary journeys on the subway, because it disturbs the proper citizens going about their business.

Tossa seems to thinks they are leeches on the NHS because they no longer pay taxes if ever, and just go to hospital for unnecessary visits.

And Tossa isn't quite sure what purpose the elderly have ever served, even when they were young.

If Tossa said the same about other, non-employed, non-salary-receiving, non-tax-paying people, would that be fine, in your book?

fuss about nuthin time. Old folks cant usually achieve a lot in terms of physical aggression - and a few weird oldie habits that look and/or sound freaky in public - never trouble me. I hope when Im old enough to be thought of as old, I will be able to enjoy a bit of free expression, not usually available to those who must meet deadlines and quotas, or do any clock watching. I am always tolerant of weird people - and odd behaviour, unless it is dangerous. in any age group. I dont need automatons, I am fine with nutty people young or old. (inc myself). Old peeps in Japan - in my experience - are most often wonderfully tough, amazingly fit - and so grateful for small kindnesses. May the angels take care of each and every one.

add one more sub group - elderly male farmers driving white Kei- trucks . I give these guys a very wide berth, especially while out riding my bike, talk about an arrogant attitude to overriding sense of entitlement in regards the use of the road and road rules. At least you can hear them coming as the drive in second gear with the engines over-revving.

This article fails to realize what the older generation would see as acceptable. For one example the young women accusing the elderly women of pushing everyone. The elderly woman is most likely used to being addressed respectfully instead of being accused. Maybe the elderly woman was pushing to get away from the groper. The elderly are used to a different Japan than today I bet. Just looking at my own father who was born in 1917, he has a totally different mind set than the people of today.

This is easy to figure out. If you are an @$$hole when you are young, chances are you are going to be an @$$hole when you are old. I got to visit Tokyo two years ago and I saw both kinds of people Mean and Nice. An old man's umbrella was blowing into the street, so I ran and got it for him. He was very happy that I helped him. A day later, I held the door open at Miser Donut for an elderly woman and smiled. She gave me a death stare.

The Granny Bashers skit from Monty Python.

It's not that old people are ruder, it's just that as people age their real personalities become more obvious since the facade wears off.

It's more likely that these grumpy old obaasan were grumpy young women once, but their grumpiness was well disguised under heaps of makeup and "kawaii" lacy, frilly frocks.

Likewise, these rude and dour ojiisan were probably always arrogant jerks, but confined it to their office where they spent every waking hour, so they were comfortably separated from the outside society. Now, as retirees, they have no interests, no life experiences, no social skills, nothing worthwhile to share, no friendships and no family bonds, so they resort to dumping on society as a whole.

The problem of ill-mannered obaasan and ojiisan begins decades earlier as kids who are arrogant, narsisstic, selfish, self-centered, and who are lacking human connection, empathy and compassion for others.

When a new registered opened at the convenience store, an older retiree tried to run past me, the clerk told him that I was next in line. He was all decked out in hiking gear and moved pretty quick.

@frenchosa. That was a pleasant surprise, I havent had that happen often. Yep, despise the elderly after an accumulated 10 years of living in Japan. I would be more specific and say the urban elderly. Ojiisans spitting on the street and on the train steps, and not washing their hands after using the toilets. Then proceeding to grab the handstraps on the trains. (Which is why I dont dare touch them) Smoking their cigarettes while walking through a crowd of people. Obachans riding bikes right out into the path of oncoming people or other bikes without any awareness of their surroundings. Both categories of people going and clogging up the public hospitals for minor ailments. Oh yeah...

Both categories of people going and clogging up the public hospitals for minor ailments.

They're not going to hospital to treat their ailments, they're going there to meet their friends!

they're going there to meet their friends!

Yes, their 'friends', cancer, heart disease, arthritis, etc. With friends like those...

Sounds like my mother -in-law. She'll sneeze then calls for an ambulance.

As stated before, it is not exactly their rude behavior that is the problem, more the inequality that they abuse 'respect for the elderly' to get away with it. A teenager litters = anyone who sees it can complain. An elderly person litters = telling something is not showing respect. This can be frustrating at times. I remember an old ojisan on the train who killed a yellow hornet with his hat. Now he has earned his respect. The old lady bringing her household cans to dump in the bin in front of my apartment building, not so much. People act in those ways because they are miserable. Feel sorry for them and ignore

Respect is earned it's not given!! I could a rat's backside what you do or who u are.. If I don't respect me , I got no respect for you!!

Maybe it's just my experience but I remember being taught to respect my elders and I was born and raised in America. This wasn't because Confucius said so either. I king of think respect for the elderly is a little general to be called a Japanese virtue.

I also recall being shocked at how much the elderly are completely ignored by the young Japanese where I live now in Japan. Maybe it's cause I live in Aomori though and all the young ones are desensitized to the multitudes of elderlies.

... I want to see how YOU feel being treated like a blight on society, or a pariah, damaged goods...

Respect elders, family members, friends...

Close your eyes, reflect on yourself, are YOU a good person, no mirror necessary for that.

I cant stand my grandfather hes gotten so much worse. If hes not complaining that "im not talking to him", he cant hear anything, he cant remember anything. He forgot to renew his car sticker, he got into a fender bender and my brother asked him about it he didnt remember, when there was an ambulance trying to get past he didnt even bother with it, he gets annoyed at my gran for "back seat driving" he said he'd rather get in a traffic accident then be told "what he was doing wrong". He gets annoyed when we dont drink beer with him, he gets annoyed if we dont have second helpings, he gets annoyed if we dont eat dessert, then today he called me fat. Hes always calling people fat, so rude. I hate visiting them for dinner and we do it twice a week.

Old people get worse as they age, no filter cant hear, cant remember anything, whiny and rude as hell. Quite frankly Id like to kick them out my life.

"Not everyone of course" it hastens to add.

That's where ya lost me. So basically ya want to vent and you need to write an article.

Good news is others need to vent too so you're article will be popular with commenters.