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Germany's past and present ties with Yasukuni shrine uncomfortable for some

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On June 6, a musical ensemble composed of 20 members from the Bavarian village of Bernhardswald, visiting Hokkaido for a music festival, took part as guests at the Hokkaido Gokoku shrine in Asahikawa. To the "Alte Kameraden" (old allies) who gave their lives in the two world wars, the band performed a medley of traditional music.

The Hokkaido Gokoku shrine, like others of its type around the country, is closely affiliated with Yasukuni shrine in Tokyo. It may even be considered a branch thereof, engaging in similar activities. It also follows the same general historical viewpoints as Yasukuni, in that it holds Japan as largely blameless for colonial expansion and wartime acts of military aggression.

A Japanese woman, Fumiko Grundstein [phonetic], widow of Bernhardswald's late bandleader Jurgen Grundstein, reportedly arranged for the band's visit to the shrine in Hokkaido.

Writing in Shukan Kinyobi (Aug 7), photojournalist Tsukasa Yajima looks at the past and present ties between Germany and Yasukuni. Few Germans, he supposes, are aware of exchanges that have taken place between their country and Yasukuni even after the war.

In 1965, for example, a delegation from the then-West German navy visited the shrine, which presented the visitors with a ginko tree sapling, which they carried back to Germany and planted at the Laboe Naval Memorial near the city of Kiel in Schleswig-Holstein.

Five years later, in 1970, Chief of Staff of the West German Air Force Johannes Steinhoff -- a former fighter ace in the Luftwaffe during World War II -- visited Yasukuni and brought with him the gift of an oak sapling, which was planted on the shrine grounds.

In April 2010, Bundestag legislator Paul Schafer, deputy for the left-leaning party Die Linkspartei, went on record as saying Germany should consider retracting its gift to Yasukuni of the oak tree and memorial, but the government replied that Steinhoff's gift was "not problematic" as it had been presented to the shrine "prior to the enshrinement of the class A war criminals" -- which took place in October 1978.

Environmentalist Sylvia Kotting-Uhl of Germany's Green party, a member of the German-Japan Parliamentarians' League, was quoted as saying, "Memorials to fallen soldiers can be found all over Germany, and they must be debated. We must remember for what reason, and for whose sake, they gave up their lives. It is more important to consider this than the nation's stated purpose for memorializing them."

Kotting-Uhl also remarked, "Yasukuni is a facility that is symbolic of militarism, and using the power of the state as a shield and without any debate between victims and perpetrators, proceeded with enshrinement on its own arbitrary terms. Awareness of this needs to be disseminated in Germany as well. That no one questioned the exchange of the trees raises the point that after the war, the German federal government has continued to maintain contacts with Yasukuni."

Beyond the east Asian countries that have been most vociferous about the Yasukuni issue, Yajima believes historical matters are now gradually being scrutinized by Germany and other nations of Europe involved with the conflict. And this can't be a bad thing: Yajima senses that in the future, it will be the Europeans' examination of Yasukuni that will expose the motives of the advocates of so-called "Nipponism," who continue to conceal historical truths while making the justification that their sole purpose is to pray for repose of war victims.

© Japan Today

©2020 GPlusMedia Inc.

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When more attention can be paid to the people victimized by wars and less paid to those who participated in victimizing others during wars, when places like Yasukuni, Arlington Cemetery, Tyne Cot, the ossuaries on the European continent and all other graveyards for soldiers and their souls (whatever that means) throughout the world can be seen as places where hideous mistakes were made and those mistakes truthfully and fully taught, when there are more monuments with plaques listing the names of innocent civilians killed by war (thank you Okinawans for listing your loved ones brutalized by both sides; your people suffered terribly) then maybe there can be a rethink about killing someone because they might believe differently and have resources whichever side wants. I know, as the Australians say, ‘he must be dreaming’. But I like good dreams.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

So? Some people are going to find problems where ever they choose to look. I could make the argument that Japanese HS baseball teams playing their school anthems after a victory is connected to their militaristic history and people should be complaining that the tradition should stop. (stupid idea ne...?!)

There are other "shrines" that have connections with Yasukuni as well, so are people going to keep looking for reasons to bash them too?

when there are more monuments with plaques listing the names of innocent civilians killed by war (thank you Okinawans for listing your loved ones brutalized by both sides; your people suffered terribly)

Please don't make this mistake again, yes they listed the names of the innocents, but the combatants from all sides are also listed as well.

The Memorial is Okinawa is not about the innocents who died, but about the absolute horror of war itself and there are victims on all sides of a conflict and NONE should ever be forgotten.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

To the “Alte Kameraden” (old allies) who gave their lives in the two world wars, the band performed a medley of traditional music.

If this is supposed to mean that Germany and Japan were allies in both world wars - they weren't.

13 ( +17 / -4 )

but the government replied that Steinhoff’s gift was “not problematic” as it had been presented to the shrine “prior to the enshrinement of the class A war criminals”

Can someone explain to me the difference between Class A and Class B and C criminals without googling it?

Then, can anyone tell me why there is such a difference between visiting a shrine with B and C criminals and when the A Team is enshrined?

I'm not Shinto. But from what I understand those who died in the service of the Emperor throughout the various wars are enshrined there. Whether A, B or C, or obviously those who may be enshrined there who maybe are a B+ in the eyes of some, but who never went to trial.

I don't have a problem with Germans planting trees. Nor do I have a problem with Japanese going to a shrine as a form of religious belief to pray for the souls of relatives and friends, whether or not they were considered villains or were in fact villains.

That doesn't mean I don't accept the fact that waging war by Japan was a mistake, and that many atrocities were committed, and that these facts should be admitted.

But most countries I know have engaged in wars that were later seen as mistakes. In fact, to my pacifist friends EVERY war is wrong.

The main thing is that we work together for peace. I went to Yasukuni recently and while I vehemently disagree with the views of history of many who were there, nobody killed me or even harassed me.

Peace!

2 ( +5 / -3 )

gaijinpapa AUG. 18, 2015 - 08:18AM JSTCan someone explain to me the difference between Class A and Class B and C criminals without googling it?

I am not sure why majority of the potential Class A got off lightly. Class A were the top Japanese war leaders, like Tojo, who had conspired to wage aggressive war and knowingly permitted brutal treatment of prisoners of war. From a list of several hundred defendants, only 25 were actually tried and sentenced.

It's really difficult to distinguish differences between B & C, but Classes B and C were the Japanese military, who ordered atrocities, allowed them to happen, or actually committed them. From a list of defendants numbering over 300,000, only a fraction of around 5,000 were brought to trial. The Japanese who conducted the ghastly biological experiments on live prisoners of war at Unit 731 escaped prosecution because General MacArthur wanted their advanced research in biological and chemical warfare made available to the US military. U.S. government offered immunity from prosecution to the military commander and staff of the biological unit in return for their research.

Facts are, so few were brought to trial was largely caused by the difficulties and the limited resources and time allowed to the investigators and prosecutors. There were simply too many Japanese war crimes to investigate, incriminating records had been deliberately destroyed, and investigators had to rely on hostile Japanese police and government officials to locate suspects and witnesses and there were too few investigators and prosecutors. When the U.S. decided in 1948 to halt the war crimes prosecutions, some of Japan's worst war criminals were able to emerge from hiding and escape justice.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

To Germany, please don't encourage the nationalists here. Japan is already walking a fine path. Please don't give them any international justification.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

If this is supposed to mean that Germany and Japan were allies in both world wars - they weren't.

You are indeed correct@Reformed. My guess is that the writer was just trying to work in the title of a famous German march that the band played, and wasn't thinking too hard.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

It is not about who is right or wrong. We have moved beyond that point in history. It is time for the leaders in Asia and Europe to leave the past behind and make history on their own.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

...For the love of every thing you hold dear....

What Yasukuni shrine represent is the SOUL of Japan (call it spirit or deity)... as any soul it is not free of impurities we all have dark parts in our souls.

Unlike some other religions, Shintoism deities are very "human" thus there is no defiantly "all good" god nor there is an "all evil god".

Going to Yasukuni is to go pay respect to Japan spirits and all those who one way or the other (good or wrong) fought for what they considered best for the country.

0 ( +8 / -8 )

But from what I understand those who died in the service of the Emperor throughout the various wars are enshrined there. Whether A, B or C, or obviously those who may be enshrined there who maybe are a B+ in the eyes of some, but who never went to trial.

Keep in mind the actual meaning behind the word "enshrined". They people enshrined at Yasukuni do not physically have their remains or ashes at the temple. Their "kami" or spirit is the only thing there, hence the belief that once they are interred there is no way to take them out.

An interesting read here;

< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes>

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

As the saying goes, there is no honor among thieves. The Axis pact drawn up by Germany, Italy and Japan provided no real benefits for its signatories. Italy became a burden for the German military in North Africa and the Balkans. Japan moved to attack the US and Britain in December 1941 in part because it was mistakenly convinced Germany was on the verge of capturing Moscow. I've read numerous essays by nationalistic Japanese of the old school who expressed their belief that their country's alliance with Nazi Germany was huge mistake. Of course that's easy for them to say in 20-20 hindsight.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

PTownsend AUG. 18, 2015 - 06:34AM JST When more attention can be paid to the people victimized by wars and less paid to those who participated in victimizing others during wars, when places like Yasukuni, Arlington Cemetery, Tyne Cot, the ossuaries on the European continent and all other graveyards for soldiers and their souls (whatever that means) throughout the world can be seen as places where hideous mistakes were made and those mistakes truthfully and fully taught,

Unfortunately, that's not the message of Yasukuni. The message of Yasukuni, through its Yushukan War Museum mouthpiece, is that Chinese and Koreans asked Japan to invade them because they were unfit to rule themselves, Imperial Japanese soldiers only ever killed Chinese and Korean terrorists and bandits, the Japan-hating US refused to share it's natural resources with Japan, so Japan was forced into bombing Pearl Harbor which eventually led to Japan being forced to endure the terror of nuclear war. Nothing that happened in WWII was ever Japan's fault, and anyone who says Japan did anything bad is a liar who hates all Japanese people.

And everyone who has any connection with Yasukuni communicates to the world that to some degree they are okay with that message.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Politicians should stay away from Yasukuni

2 ( +6 / -4 )

" To the “Alte Kameraden” (old allies) who gave their lives in the two world wars, the band performed a medley of traditional music. "

The writer tries to suggest that Germany and Japan were allies in both WW1 and 2, but they were not. In WW1, Japan was on the allied side. It were Japanese troops who captured the German colony of Tsingtau, has everybody forgotten that?

And as the writer mentioins en passant, Yasukuni only became an issue in 1978, after the Japanese government added the war criminals to the scrolls. So this is purely a Japanese problem, the Abe goverment should remove the war criminals and be done with that.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Take it up with the Pope. McArthur wanted to destroy the shrine and build a dog racing track (really!). However, the Papal Emissary (not sure about the English) said all countries have the right to mourn their war dead, and pushed to save the shrine. He succeeded. Maybe McArthur should not have given in. Although now, I'm glad he gave in about the Emperor, who is putting Abe in his place.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

You still can't control spirits. It's a facade of control used on people, for their own purposes.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Gokai.

At that time the shrine had NO Museum attached to it yet. That came later when the shrine owner(now private) decided to build it and enshrine the class A criminals on the sly.

So given the knowledge at that time the pope was correct.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

It also follows the same general historical viewpoints as Yasukuni, in that it holds Japan as largely blameless for colonial expansion and wartime acts of military aggression.

Who made this up? This is not my historical viewpoint at all. The place is exactly like the Tomb of the unknown soldier in Arlington. Whether good or bad, you respect your fallen that followed the leaders of their countries at that time.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

MyTimeIsYour TimeAUG. 18, 2015 - 02:14PM JST The place is exactly like the Tomb of the unknown soldier in Arlington. Whether good or bad, you respect your fallen that followed the leaders of their countries at that time.

Unlike Yasukuni, Arlington is a cemetery. The bodies or ashes of those who served and their family members are interred on the grounds. The fallen will continue to rest there as long as the U.S. exists. None of this is true at Yasukuni. It is a religious shrine established in 1869 to embed the supremacy of the Shinto faith, the divinity of the Emperor, and the centrality of the Imperial institution into the national polity. At Yasukuni, those fighting for the Emperor from the civil wars of mid-nineteenth century Japan through the end of the Pacific War were transformed into divine spirits to join as one with the Emperor. Here the common foot soldier was rewarded in death by becoming equal to the Emperor.

At Arlington, men and women of all religions and races are buried. At Yasukuni only Shinto is practiced and only the souls of identified and approved members of Imperial Japan's military who died on the battlefield can be apotheosized with the Emperor. There are many exceptions, such as the 14 Class A war criminals who were hanged or died Prison after the Pacific War.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

A large part of the problem is that the people convicted by the war tribunals were not guilty of any crimes under Japanese law.

International law was used to convict the members, and they were never tried or allowed to be tried in Japanese courts because of the potential of having the convictions overturned.

Japanese military law was harsh, and many officers and men were tried during the war by courts-martial for numerous offenses that were against Japanese law. However the A, B, and C class war criminals were charged for "crimes against humanity" (C Class I believe) "crimes against peace" (B class ) and "war crimes" ( A Class).

Japan did not sign the 1929 Geneva Convention on the Prisoners of War (except the 1929 Geneva Convention on the Sick and Wounded),[21] though in 1942, it did promise to abide by its terms.[22] The crimes committed also fall under other aspects of international and Japanese law. For example, many of the crimes committed by Japanese personnel during World War II broke Japanese military law, and were subject to court martial, as required by that law.[23] The Empire also violated international agreements signed by Japan, including provisions of the Hague Conventions (1899 and 1907) such as protections for prisoners of war and a ban on the use of chemical weapons, the 1930 Forced Labour Convention which prohibited forced labor, the 1921 International Convention for the Suppression of the Traffic in Women and Children which prohibited human trafficking, and other agreements.[24][25] The Japanese government also signed the Kellogg-Briand Pact (1929), thereby rendering its actions in 1937–45 liable to charges of crimes against peace,[26] a charge that was introduced at the Tokyo Trials to prosecute "Class A" war criminals. "Class B" war criminals were those found guilty of war crimes per se, and "Class C" war criminals were those guilty of crimes against humanity. The Japanese government also accepted the terms set by the Potsdam Declaration (1945) after the end of the war, including the provision in Article 10 of punishment for "all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners."

Japan does not define those convicted as criminals, hence too the apathy towards Yasukuni, and misunderstanding why China and Korea in particular are strongly offended by the visits there.

Many people think of WWII as starting (with regards to Japan) after Pearl Harbor, but to Korea and China it goes way back to 1910 (Annexing the Korean Pen.) and 1895 (For some in China).

There is a lot of history that Japanese need to be educated about and are not, but should be, as it defines many of the actions being taken today that are misunderstood by others.

Japanese governments as well would be well served by acknowledging these crimes and criminals, even if it wasnt against Japanese law at the time.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

He succeeded. Maybe McArthur should not have given in.

Probably the pope was unaware that in 1978, 14 war criminals would be enshrined there. I'm sure that the result would have been otherwise

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

YubaruAUG. 18, 2015 - 03:03PM JST Japan does not define those convicted as criminals, hence too the apathy towards Yasukuni, and misunderstanding why China and Korea in particular are strongly offended by the visits there.

Who made the rules? It's not Japan. What do you expect when 1 out of 8 class eight is brought to trial? If you look at Class A & B, only 5,000 out of 3000,000 is actually put on a trial? And few is actually convicted? Don't blame China or Korea, but the problem lies in the U.S. for lack of priority and enforcement. This is why Japan does not define those convicted.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Who made the rules? It's not Japan. What do you expect when 1 out of 8 class eight is brought to trial? If you look at Class A & B, only 5,000 out of 3000,000 is actually put on a trial? And few is actually convicted? Don't blame China or Korea, but the problem lies in the U.S. for lack of priority and enforcement. This is why Japan does not define those convicted.

The US made plenty of mistakes with the war crimes tribunals, Yasukuni was one, and the bigger one was not putting Hirohito on trial for his part.

But these arguments are all academic as it's part of history now.

The thing today is to ensure that history is not repeated and that Japanese children are educated about the war, and Japan's place in it.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Yubaru AUG. 18, 2015 - 03:31PM JST The thing today is to ensure that history is not repeated and that Japanese children are educated about the war, and Japan's place in it.

How are you going to do that? Only in words? As a law, why don't the Abe government put a ban on visiting Yasukuni for the J-government members? That would be a start.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Just out of interest, what happened to the Brits that were enshrined at Yasakuni for laying down their lives during the Boshin War (I think that is right).

1 ( +1 / -0 )

So Germany of all countries is going to examine a Japanese shrine and sit in condemnation of Japan? Really have you got to be kidding me.....

Yubaru The Geneva conventions as we know them today were not formed until 1949. Before that the league of nations was a joke to begin with. There are no real rules in war to be honest. While it did suck for people who were help prisoner by the Japanese imperial army they were following a code of ethics that believed to die in battle is better than being taken alive. Japan more than paid a heavy price, more than any other nation honestly paid in WWII except for Russia. More on the Geneva conventions can be found here http://www.britannica.com/event/Geneva-Conventions. I am not comfortable with Germany being a moral judge for anyone during WWII, they started a genocide that they are still funding to this day and they were assisted by the population of most of Europe who is also funding groups in the middle east that want to finish was hitler started.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

How are you going to do that? Only in words? As a law, why don't the Abe government put a ban on visiting Yasukuni for the J-government members? That would be a start.

Why put a ban? To appease China and Korea? If in your country, where ever you may be from, instituted a ban against something similar, when the people interred there did nothing wrong in the eyes of the laws of your country, would you agree?

Leave Yasukuni to Yasukuni, build a secular, shrine and memorial to all the war dead, from all sides, and make IT the place to go to pay respects. Suggestion, use the area that will be left over after the 2020 Olympics as a start.

Yasukuni would whither away and lose all importance.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

The writer tries to suggest that Germany and Japan were allies in both WW1 and 2, but they were not. In WW1, Japan was on the allied side. It were Japanese troops who captured the German colony of Tsingtau, has everybody forgotten that?

True

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Yubaru:

" Leave Yasukuni to Yasukuni, build a secular, shrine and memorial to all the war dead "

I have mentioned this so many times I fell like a broken record player, but here once more: Japan HAS a dignified memorial to the war dead in Chidorigafuji.

The issue is not building one. The issue is making the J-politicians go there, instead of embarrassing their country by going to Yasukuni year after year.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

The issue is making the J-politicians go there, instead of embarrassing their country by going to Yasukuni year after year.

How can someone be embarrassing their country when they think they are being patriotic?

I have been a proponent of a secular shrine and Chidorigafuji is not what I had in mind at all, I am talking about a memorial shrine, a new one, to make a break from the past and one to be inclusive of all, and promoted as such.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Daniel Neagari What Yasukuni shrine represent is the SOUL of Japan (call it spirit or deity) -

Modus vivendi. I'm a gaijin so I only have an opinion. But I just spent the day with Japanese friends at a temple in Kyoto and would like to think the beautiful, peaceful things I saw there, including the way nature was shaped represent a huge part of the soul (using my sense of the word) of Japan.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I say look to the future.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@Yubaru, i think even if they build another shrine, isn't that still for praying? like Yasukuni shrine. perhaps a cemetery (like chidorigafuji) can look more like a secular one. imo

0 ( +0 / -0 )

i think even if they build another shrine, isn't that still for praying? like Yasukuni shrine. perhaps a cemetery (like chidorigafuji) can look more like a secular one. imo

I guess what I am suggesting is what we have in Okinawa.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

ok, i think a shrine looks more like a church for christians, or a synagogue for jews. but if there is a secular one, i don't know alot about shinto.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

ok, i think a shrine looks more like a church for christians, or a synagogue for jews. but if there is a secular one, i don't know alot about shinto.

Secular means it is not connected to any particular religion or sect. The Okinawa Peace Memorial Park is dedicated to all and not any one in particular.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

man, thanks for the clarification. that make sense, i thought it will be another shrine with a priest.

thats cool, however costly, it will also make it equal with all other peace memorial parks like Hiroshima or Nagasaki. but, hope abe is listening. maybe japanese really need to bombard him with letters or calls, or just protest in front of his official residence.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Honestly, MacArthur should've destroyed Yasukuni during the initial occupation. The US allowed japan to keep its culture and many other values, but the significance of Yasukuni is nothing more than a fanatical rallying cry for those who died for Nothing.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

As of the Iraq War, the United States' hands are no longer clean with regard to Aggressive Warfare. American critics of Yasukuni Shrine no longer hold the moral standing to criticize Japan. (or Germany.) We did the very same thing in Iraq, a war of choice against an enemy (yes, Saddam was a brutal SOB and had poked us in the past) that had absolutely NOTHING to do with 9/11. The Iraq War was a war of aggression. Hopefully eventually people like Vice President Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld and their puppet President George W. Bush end up in the dock for war crimes trials, because we committed lots in Iraq. Abu Ghraib, anyone?

6 ( +6 / -0 )

Why is its that some people can never forget Japan's participation in WW2, forget it, it is History, let's move on and TRY to make Peace in the World!

2 ( +4 / -2 )

None of those executed as Class A war criminals or charged with "crimes against peace" was in power during the 1930-45 period for which they were accused of "conspiracy". The only person in authority during this entire period and in whose name war was waged was Emperor Hirohito. Once it was decided to spare the Emperor to preserve social and political stability in post-war Japan, the indictment of his subordinates became questionable. The ambiguity of the charges against the Class A war criminals has allowed them to be regarded as scapegoats and has contributed to the inability of Japan to come to terms with its past.

The US officer in charge of selecting the political war criminals to be tried, Elliot Thorpe, admitted that "they made up the rules after the game was over". Willoughby, chief of intelligence to MacArthur, later described the Tokyo trials as "the worst hypocrisy in recorded history". This certainly does not excuse the atrocities that Imperial Japan committed in China, Korea and Southeast Asia. Those hanged as Class A war criminals may well have richly deserved execution. But not for "crimes against peace" as then hastily defined.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

None of those executed as Class A war criminals or charged with "crimes against peace" was in power during the 1930-45 period for which they were accused of "conspiracy". The only person in authority during this entire period and in whose name war was waged was Emperor Hirohito.

Are you intentionally being blind to history? Pay attention to the dates.....Crimes against peace was the classification for a Class A war criminal. The following is a partial list of those convicted, and these men were all hanged for their crimes.

7 of the 14 interred at Yasukuni were hanged, the others after getting out of prison died of natural causes.

They DEFINITELY were in power! Of that there is NO doubt.

Hideki Tojo was, at various times, Prime Minister, War Minister, and Home Affairs Minister of Japan from 1941 to 1944.

He was made chief of staff of the Kwantung Army in 1940. He helped plan the war against China as well as the Pacific War when acting as vice minister of war in 1943. He became the commander-in-chief of the Burma Area Army in 1944. He brutalized allied prisoners of war by using them for the construction of the Burma-Siam railway. He attained the rank of general in 1945.

As a Japanese military officer in the Kwantung Army from 1929 to 1934, he and Kanji Ishiwara planned the Mukden Incident that took place in Manchuria in 1931. He attained the rank of lieutenant general with the Japanese Army and became chief of staff of the Kwantung army in 1936. He was appointed minister of war in 1938, chief of staff of the China Expeditionary Army in 1939, attained the rank of general in the Japanese Army serving with the Chief Chosen Army in Korea in 1941, Commander-in-Chief of the 17th Area Army in Korea in 1945, and Commander-in-Chief of 7th Area Army in Singapore later that same year.

In March 1936, Doihara was appointed lieutenant general and chief of staff of the China Garrison army. In March 1937, he became general commanding officer of the 14th Division, China. From May 1939, he worked as general commanding officer of the 5th Army, China, was a member of the Supreme War Council, the principal of the Military Academy, served as Inspector-General of Army Aviation, and commander in chief Eastern District Army among other illustrious positions. After the war, Doihara was tried by the Tokyo tribunal and sentenced to death. Before his execution, he was imprisoned at Sugamo Prison.

Matsui planned the November 1937 attacks on Shanghai and Nanjing. He was the commanding officer of the Japanese expeditionary force responsible for the Nanjing Massacre in 1937. Matsui was recalled to Japan in 1938.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Yubaru AUG. 19, 2015 - 07:37AM JST They DEFINITELY were in power! Of that there is NO doubt. Hideki Tojo was, at various times, Prime Minister, War Minister, and Home Affairs Minister of Japan from 1941 to 1944.

From 1928 to 1945, Japan had 18 Prime Ministers. Command responsibility is as old as war. So is guilt for murder done or murder ordered. So can blame all these PM's for the responsibility to the death for murder tolerated, knowingly or not during this time? U.S. did not pursue charges to majority of potential Class A suspects. Why?

The trial of Japanese leaders at the Tokyo Tribunal in 1946 has often been equated with the prosecution of the leading Nazis at Nuremberg. More important, the charges differed between the two trials. The charter under which the Tokyo court operated gave it jurisdiction only over persons accused of offenses that included the somewhat vague definition of ‘crimes against peace,’ although such persons might be charged with other crimes as well. At Nuremberg, ‘crimes against peace’ were only one of several categories of possible offenses. And, no Japanese organizations, such as the Black Dragon Society, were charged.

Moreover, conspiracy to ‘wage aggressive war’ was the heart of the prosecution’s case in Japan. Another difference was the absence of powerful Japanese industrialists. The Nuremberg indictments had included some of the top businessmen in Germany, such as Alfred Krupp. In Japan, the decision was made not to prosecute similar people even though U.S. had proof that the industrialists had aided and abetted the government in preparing and carrying out wars of aggression. U.S. played by the different rules.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

From 1928 to 1945, Japan had 18 Prime Ministers. Command responsibility is as old as war. So is guilt for murder done or murder ordered. So can blame all these PM's for the responsibility to the death for murder tolerated, knowingly or not during this time? U.S. did not pursue charges to majority of potential Class A suspects. Why?

Nice attempt at obfuscation, you made a blanket statement (re-quoted below here) that NON were in power. That is blatantly false.

None of those executed as Class A war criminals or charged with "crimes against peace" was in power during the 1930-45 period for which they were accused of "conspiracy".

Your numbers are incorrect about 18 PM's as well, there were 14, 2 were assassinated, and others were part of the military as well. However be that as it may, and for discussion purpose here alone, who the US decided to find responsible was due to politics of the time.

The members of the infamous Unit 731 were let go because they shared their "research" with the authorities at the time.

Was it right? Hell no, was it politically motivated YES, just the same as letting Hirohito go scott free as well.

However that is hindsight, and it is 20/20.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yubaru AUG. 19, 2015 - 09:57AM JST Your numbers are incorrect about 18 PM's as well, there were 14, 2 were assassinated, and others were part of the military as well.

If you want to be picky, there were total of 17 PM during this time, due to assassination or incapacitated reason, there were 3 others who fill in as PM during that time. Also Konoe served twice.

In 1930, PM Hamaguchi was incapacitated due to serious wound from assassination plot in 1930. FM Shidehara served as Deputy Prime Minister until Hamaguchi’s return to the office on March 1931.

In 1932, PM Tsuyoshi was assassinated. During this interval, FM Korekiyo was the Acting Prime Minister.

In 1936, PM Okada was thought to be killed by renegade soldiers during the February Incident. Interior Minister Fumio served as Deputy Prime Minister until Okada was found alive.

PM Konoe served twice as PM 1937 and 1940-41
0 ( +0 / -0 )

Those Bavarians, they go everywhere, and not only military brassbands.

Last year the Munich synfonic orchestra went into the Shalimar Gardens of Srinagar, Kashmir with their Indian conductor formerly of NewYork employment, for an outdoor concert. Good work.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Only 28 percent of German people think positively of Japan. Japan image among German has turn negative after 2012.

In 2012, 58% of German respondents said they thought Japan was making positive contribution to the world. The number had halved to 28% by 2014.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Germany-dismayed-by-Japan-s-inability-to-move-on?page=1

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Let me get this right, a widow of a German bandleader invites his band to play music, and all of a sudden its a vast right wing conspiracy the rise of Neo-fascism in Japan, now given a name, "Nipponism"!?!

The joke is, Nazi Germany was far closer and gave far more benefits to the Chinese, who used them in the war against Japan, therefore to state "old allies" is a little disingenuous.

Is there any evidence to suggest that the band members were neo-Nazis?

Given that "Nip" is a racist epithet, I wonder if the authors would feel so free to label the rise of, say, Black conscious, "Nig-erism" in the same way?

It's 2015, at least write it in a manner to get the pronunciation correct.

@Hansaram

If it is true, all that statistic really suggests is that the Chinese Communist Party campaign, and those allied to it by habit or their own prejudices, is being successful.

According to GlobeScan for BBC World Service, In 2012 Japan was the most positively rated country, while in 2014 it dropped to fifth place among all nations assessed with a rating of 49% of positive views. Negative views of Japan among Chinese rose to a record high of 90 per cent.

I wonder how as 99% of Chinese had never been there?

And here we read again the usual spin that "the Japanese" are conceal historical truths when what they really mean is "rejecting racist propaganda".

I completely disagree with the hammering young Germans, and today's German nation, have had for events which happened long before they were even born, just as I do with the mass manipulation being aimed at Japan and the Japanese. It's even gone as far as to strip their freedom of speech and create Orwellian "thought crimes".

A deterioration of freedom of speech, especially in Japan where it is weak, is the last thing on earth that we want spreading.

Especially as it is coming from extremely amoral and totalitarian elements and yet we see it being successful, even sweeping up so called liberals (albeit unthinking liberals) to support it under the guise of wanting to be seen as moral.

In the case of the Germans, they have had to bear the additional political agendas of the ZIonist/Israeli block (it's absolutely wrong to call it "Jewish") exploiting Jewish suffering and, particularly, their supporters in the USA.

Some time around the 1990s, the Chinese studied the political advances gained by the ZIonists/Israelis, the so called "Holocaust Industry", and decided to emulated and use them. Nanking - complete with its magical big number - became their "Holocaust" and, latterly, they have even usurped and replicated the Korean claims inventing their own comfort women campaign.

Most of this goes on within China, where it is not subject to rigorous peer review or political challenges as there basically in none; and most of it is aimed at manipulating mass consciousness (called Milieu Control in Thought Reform studies) of Chinese.

However, in the last few years, they have decided to invest millions manipulating mass consciousness in the Western and largely English speaking world -- to weaken US political support for Japan.

Why? What do they plan to do next (in the South China Sea)?

Pre-emptively, they are seeding the world's mind with the ideas that the Japanese are aggressive, the Japanese are fascist, the Japanese are insincere, the Japanese are unrepentant and unapologetic (despite how many times they apologize); ridiculously accusing Japan of doing everything that China itself is doing first.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

What Yasukuni shrine represent is the SOUL of Japan (call it spirit or deity)... as any soul it is not free of impurities we all have dark parts in our souls.

If the soul of Japan is the collective souls of soldiers who mostly died prosecuting wars of aggression, then the soul of Japan is one vast dark impurity!

Might I suggest a different soul? One without so much blood on it? Maybe something to do with civilians who don't have jobs that necessarily involve killing other people?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The Yasukuni represents nothing.

It's a private enterprise with no official standing.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

It's a private enterprise with no official standing.

Yes, but its also been the focus of arguments over constitutional separation of church and state in Japan that have been taken all the way to the Supreme Court.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I see that the plaintiffs in the most prominent case were "playing for the other team"; Buddhists - who make their money off handling the dead - and a Catholic. I'd like to see more details, e.g. were they Jodo Buddhists with a political agenda.

I, personally, don't actually believe that millions of souls are housed in the shrine and so I find it difficult to take a bunch of communist propagandists in China getting all upset at it seriously.

On the other hand, I can appreciate that many humans need somewhere and some ritual to come to terms with the loss of their loved ones that has nothing to do with whatever else their loved ones did or did not.

Logically, if you do believe in ancestor souls existing (which I find a little irrational), it would be rational that souls who carried out bad acts needed most prayers so I would have no opposition to them having somewhere to focus that.

I'm sure even Tojo loved his children and was a good father and would have preferred not to have fought a war if he could have.

But, in respect to the WWII related souls, Japan was largely forced into having to by the US ambitions in Asia and European imperialists, so what could he and they do?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

If it is true, all that statistic really suggests is that the Chinese Communist Party campaign, and those allied to it by habit or their own prejudices, is being successful.

Naah...CCP had nothing to do with it. Stop blaming China for every single wrong thing in Japan. After 2012, Abe take over Japan as president. Hope that gives you a clue why Japan image among German people has turn negative. It's Japan own fault not China.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

It would be incorrect to write that the "CCP had nothing to do with it" as it is engaged on a multi-million dollar (one report said one billion dollar) PR campaign to damage Japan's international reputation with the aim of reducing political and military support for it.

However, I agree that it is not the only factor nor entire responsible. It's just that the campaign - along with some elements of little brother Korea and the comfort women activists - are whipping up and sweeping along with it old racist prejudices based on war time propaganda.

Without such deliberate efforts, Japan would large be invisible and forgotten about by most Europeans and even American, existing as nothing else then the land of anime and cool technology.

I am absolutely sure that the vast majority of Germans have absolutely no aware of Abe at all and could not even name him or report on anything he has done. It's only this background noise that's being created for the specific purpose that I have mentioned that is changing public opinion.

And, let's be honest, this is something that the Chinese communists have developed into an art of war practising upon their own people for decades too manipulating and control them.

The West needs to be made aware of how deliberately it is being whipped up and manipulated, and for what, and should be very upset at China for doing so.

There is nothing honest or moral about its intentions.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Then how come German negative image towards Japanese only occur after 2012 when Abe take the office?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Germany's past and present ties with Yasukuni shrine uncomfortable for some

-there is not much data here to support this argument.

For a contrast look at "operation paperclip"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip Nazi / USA-CIA cooperation after the war.

Otto Ambros was a Third Reich chemist who served as director of the German corporation that produced the gas used in the death camps. He was tried at Nuremberg, found guilty of mass murder, and sentenced to eight years. While he was serving time in prison, Operation Paperclip officials arranged for his sentence to be commuted. In 1951, Ambros was hired to work at a clandestine facility north of Frankfurt called Camp King. His work, sanctioned by the Defense Department, ultimately involved the testing of sarin toxins on American soldiers without their knowledge.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Hansaram

Then how come German negative image towards Japanese only occur after 2012 when Abe take the office?

Have you not noticed how personally centered on Abe the campaign has been across news sites and social media?

It's been part of the script all along, mostly because it appeals to Americans and their fixation with their own president.

Other nations have a more mature attitude towards their elected leaders and know they just come and go and they are no big thing. It's not like in China.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Yes, news sites and social media have been personally centered on Abe the campaign because Abe has been attracting controversy. So Japan negative image is because of Abe himself, not China.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

No, it's been the other way around and part of the script. Abe is pretty boring, grey character and a very safe player in real life.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Huh? So you are saying Abe is attracting attention because Abe is boring? That doesn't make any sense at all. China certainly do not have power on whatever script/media that German people read. Did you even know that Abe been attracting controversy like sitting on a plane with the number 731 on it? You know what 731 mean right? https://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/rtxzp5y.jpg?w=480&h=320&crop=1 German PM, Angela Merkel told Japan to face up his past. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/11458384/Japan-must-face-up-to-its-shameful-Second-World-War-past-like-Germany-did-says-Angela-Merkel.html

Seriously though, China had nothing to do with it and it's Abe himself that cause controversy and tarnish Japan negative image. Stop blaming China for whatever bad thing happen to Japan.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

JT: The Hokkaido Gokoku shrine, like others of its type around the country, is closely affiliated with Yasukuni shrine in Tokyo. It may even be considered a branch thereof, engaging in similar activities. It also follows the same general historical viewpoints as Yasukuni, in that it holds Japan as largely blameless for colonial expansion and wartime acts of military aggression.

Well, I guess some folks can stop whining about 'people whining about Japanese aggression 70 years after the fact.'

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I posted this link in another topic. It's all just part of a Chinese propaganda war.

All this "right wing" stuff is straight out of the cultural revolution.

China steps up propaganda war on Japan

China has embarked on a major propaganda campaign, including plans to mark the 'rape of Nanjing’ in new national holiday, to discredit Japan on the world stage

If you are denying it -- that's your credibility blown.

Beijing is waging a major propaganda war against Tokyo, using the media to contrast Germany’s atonement for the war to what Beijing sees as Japan’s failure to adequately apologise for its role in Second World War

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/10662966/China-steps-up-propaganda-war-on-Japan.html

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

China's anti Japanese propaganda has been going on for years and long time ago but it never work outside of China and people outside China can see through China anti Japanese propaganda which is why before Abe take over the office, German still have positive image on the Japanese.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I don't really understand your point but the connection is not Abe, it's the propaganda campaigns, and not just from China.

I don't quite understand the dynamics with foreign correspondents in Japan and outlets like the New York Times and so on, but there seem to be other things going on too.

I suppose there are the Koreans pushing their comfort woman statues etc, the so called Liberals in the USA looking for political causes to clamber on to increase their importance, and also capitalist hawks who favor relationships with China over relationships with Japan.

It's not just China. In fact, China's late to the party and come wearing the wrong dress.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

No, it's not propaganda campaign. The fact that foreign media outside China and Korea also bash Abe pretty much prove it.

Wartime 'Abenesia' bad for Japan's international reputation http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/30/opinions/japan-abe-united-states-kingston/

History problems cast a shadow over Abe’s Japan http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2015/04/18/commentary/history-problems-cast-shadow-abes-japan/#.VdyEMSWqqkq

Abe’s unconvincing attempt to whitewash Japan’s history http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2015/08/17/commentary/japan-commentary/abes-unconvincing-attempt-to-whitewash-japans-history/#.VdyENCWqqkq

Abe dig his own grave. That's all.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

It's not just China. In fact, China's late to the party and come wearing the wrong dress.

Just prove you know very little. China anti Japanese propaganda has been going on for a very long time and a lot more earlier. Stop thinking too much. There is no capitalist who favor relationship with China. Abe just did the wrong thing for trying to distorting history which is why he got bash. That's all. The media didn't bash Japan this much before Abe takeover.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

There is no capitalist who favor relationship with China.

Uh-oh, time for a reality check here but I fear that attempting to explain the economic element of it all would be a waste of time.

What sickens me the most about the Chinese propagandists is that the rest of the world is faced with filtering out their upside down, back to front world view pollution.

Let's try again.

China steps up propaganda war on Japan

China has embarked on a major propaganda campaign to discredit Japan on the world stage

Beijing is waging a major propaganda war against Tokyo, using the media to contrast Germany’s atonement for the war to what Beijing sees as Japan’s failure to adequately apologise for its role in Second World War

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/10662966/China-steps-up-propaganda-war-on-Japan.html

What China needs to do is emphasize its positive elements and improve its quality control and business ethics on export consumer goods and counterfeits.

And control its pollition better.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Those propaganda already exist since long time ago. It's never effective which is why German has positive image on Japan before Abe taking over but become negative when Abe takeover. Economy? There's no Japan bashing either before Abe become president. So no, there is no capitalist.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

What makes you think Abe attempt at distorting history will not get bash by the west? Because everyone in the west in Japanophile? Come one, be real and wake up. This isn't a simple black and white issues as if Japan is pure white angel who can do no wrong while China is pure black devil who always do wrong things. It's gray for both China and Japan.

Abe attempt at distorting history has been a concern by USA.

It wasn’t until the U.S. Congressional Research Service issued a report in early May branding Abe a “nationalist” and warning that the controversy over historical issues could damage U.S. interests that Abe and the LDP went into serious damage control. Abe now says he fully accepts the apologies issued by previous administrations. http://nation.time.com/2013/05/20/sorry-but-japan-still-cant-get-the-war-right/

Not only the medias, but even US and German show concern on Japan inability to move on from the past.

Bashing Japan=/=supporting China

0 ( +1 / -1 )

It's ridiculous to personalize the issue on Abe and paint him as the devil.

He isn't attempting to distort history. He does not need to.

History has been perfectly well distorted already by everyone else.

Most Japanese wish they would stop doing so.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

No one paint Abe as the devil. The point is Abe and Japan can do wrong things too and Abe attempt at distorting history is the one that cause German impressions on Japan to become negative. Japan WW2 atrocities are no way fabrication.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

There are endless fabrications from the Chinese side, where do you want to start, e.g. all those faked photographs or with Chinese on Chinese violence at Nanking?

The latest Chinese propaganda campaign goes even further.

Far from "China winning WWII for the sake of the free world", the only thing that had kept China afloat to the degree it had, and provoked the IJA to go as far as it did, was the Anglo-American super powers, and Germans, pouring in military aid and advice.

Far from Japan and Germany being the "fascists" against whom "China" fought, the Chinese's leading military advisers were all Nazi Germans, e.g. General von Seekt, the man responsible for rebuilding the German Army, who had arrived in Nanking in 1932, and Von Falkenhausen, who assumed the position of China's chief military advisor in 1934 and went on to head Nazi occupation force in North Europe.

As John Rabe confirmed in 'The Good Man of Nanking', it was also German military advisors who trained the Chinese soldiers who fought so fiercely in Shanghai against the Japanese.

Japanese officers had actually trained with the British and Anerican military.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

There is no Chinese violence on Chinese civilians in Nanking. Some photos are fake, doesn't mean, the Nanking massacre, where Japanese soldiers murdered and raped thousand of innocent Chinese civilians are fake. Just because China has distorting history, that does not mean Japan has the right to do so. Two wrong doesn't make one right. That is why German has negative impressions on Japan because unlike Japan, German accept it's atrocities and move on while Japan is unable to move on from the past and try to play down their atrocities.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Really? Ever read any history books?

This account is from Chinese published 'The China Journal' (January 1938 issue)

When news of [Tang Shengzhi’s] flight became known, the Chinese soldiers attempted to leave the city. They were mowed down by machine-guns in the hands of their own comrades, but, when it became apparent that the fall of the city was inevitable, all Chinese troops who could fled from the scene.

This related to the events at Yijiang Gate which started the whole Holocaust hoax which a journalist called Durdin had filed with the New York Times, a habitual anti-Japan source.

According to Nanking Incident Source Material, Vol. 1: American References, Durdin later recanted his statements admitting that there was a confrontation at Yijiang Gate between Chinese soldiers attempting to escape.

Some of them were trampled to death, and that was the reason for the mound of corpses, not "Japanese atrocity".

IJA records show it never engaged with the enemy there and at that time.

A second journalist, Steele, also confirmed the truth in statements in 1986. He admitted that a great number of Chinese soldiers suffocated in the choas while attempting to escape through Yijiang Gate and that their superiors had shot on them.

It was standard fare for the Chinese where the majority of "recruits" were just local with no training and no discipline dragged into fight in the previous days.

If you want more references, I have them.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Duh...you are talking about this article right? http://i.imgur.com/s3ZTCOW.png http://i.imgur.com/XUxn748.png

I already seen that LOOONG time ago. Please read again what I said.

There is no Chinese violence on Chinese civilians in Nanking.

The article you mentioned here is Chinese soldiers killing Chinese soldiers in the middle of panic. The Nanking massacre is about Chinese civilians. Totally different. The Chinese soldiers are not local. If you read the article, it says

Retreating troops were entering Nanking in apparently good order and good spirits Those Chinese soldiers in Naking are Chinese soldiers retreating from previous battle, probably from Battle of Shanghai retreating.

It's typical argument by Japanese right wing nationalists to lies and accuse Chinese soldiers who cause the death of those Chinese civilians. The Japanese right winger like to lies using this article to deflect and switch attention away from atrocities committed by their own Imperial Japan soldiers. I know this because I deal with a Japanese right winger nationalist who use this same argument before. Been there, done that.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

And that's a typical argument used to discredit anyone that questions and rejects the usual propaganda swilling around the internet.

If you have a brain, think and question, you must be a "Japanese right wing nationalists".

I'm not.

On balance, having looked a lots of evidence, there was no massacre as portrayed. As with the comfort woman issue, there is just far too much unsupported and contradictory evidence to accept the usual anti-Japan propaganda.

In fact, you'd have to be brain dead to do.

To gain an understanding, what you need to do is go right back to the beginning, see how, from whom and why the propaganda myth started, and then include a lot of other sources.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Discredit? I already address it by saying Chinese soldiers killing Chinese soldiers, not Chinese civilians.

On balance, having looked a lots of evidence, there was no massacre as portrayed.

No massacre as portray? Do you mean no massacre at all or the massacre been over exaggerate? If it's the later, you might have a case but your credibility pretty much gone if you mean no Chinese civilians been killed and raped by the Japanese. Are you a historian and do you major in history?

Though some foreign academics put the number of deaths much lower, no respected mainstream historians dispute that a massacre took place.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/02/25/national/politics-diplomacy/china-mulls-holidays-to-remember-defeat-of-japan-nanjing-massacre/#.VeMXTvmqqkp

Most respected mainstream historians do not deny the massacre.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The vast majority of historians, respected or not, did not read Japanese or Chinese and did not even study the era.

Funnily enough, yes I did go to university to study history. You obviously do not know anything about it, otherwise you'd know how specialized it has become.

A statement like "Most respected mainstream historians" is pure and simple garbage, and typical of progandistic bents such as those peddled from the AFP in their anti-Japan position.

Ask a good historian and he will tell you such view of the discipline is reasonable and correct.

Actually, I studied a different area within the broad discipline - but - it gave me the grounds to be able to judge what is "history" and what is not.

And 99.9% of what you read on the internet about Nanking etc is not history. It's offensive garbage. An insult to very idea of what "history" is.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Aah..another Nanking denier. Why am I not surprised . Sorry, you are the one who don't know anything then. Historians such as Jonathan Spence claim the massacre does occur though the death toll is very little.

China historian Jonathan Spence, for example, estimates that 42,000 soldiers and citizens were killed and 20,000 women raped, many of whom later died. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/11291820/China-holds-first-Nanjing-Massacre-memorial-day.html

Since you are historians, why don't you show me prove then that those massacre did not happen. Please provide evidence. Saying you study historians will not convince me. I remember the case of Nanking victim survivor, Xia Shuqin who went to Japan to sue a Japanese historians,Shūdō Higashinakano for saying Nanking massacre did not happen. Historians who claim Nanking massacre is a hoax got sued in Japanese court.Other Japanese historians such as Ikuhiko Hata claim that Nanking masssacre does occur although he put the death toll also lower, around 40 000 if I remember correctly reading his research. Show me proof that mainstream historian think there is no Nanking massacre. If making ad hominem or accusing AFP for being anti Japanese then you clearly got nothing to prove at all.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It's not just Xia Shuqin. Another Nanking Massacre survivor, Li Xiuying also win lawsuit case in Japan in Tokyo Court against Japanese write, Toshio Matsumura, another Nanking massacre denier.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

No, not a "Nanking denier" ... a progapanda rejecter.

It's not possible to prove something did not happen.

The onus is on proving what did and there is significant enough evidence to fairly question the progaganda version and the sources it is based on, original sources who admitted later they had filed false reports or based them on hearsay.

The blaiming of the Japanese Army for atrocities carried out by the rag tag Chinese forces (it's hard to call it an "army"), is a typical problem.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

So you are saying there are two version and that is the real Nanking Massacre and propaganda Nanking Massacre version? Can I ask you a question first? Do you believe there are thousands of innocent Chinese civilians killed by Japanese soldiers in Nanking as that's what the real Nanking Massacre really is.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I am saying there is one objective truth buried under decades of misleading mire.

And surprising good evidence to support a far better picture of it than is currently swilling around the internet.

To so called "Nanking Massacre" is a false construction based primarily on false reports from non eye witnesses, exaggerated by the media which at that time was serving war time propaganda interests, and then assembled from death figures from a wide front of military action polarizing them instead on Nanking itself.

So, yes, (approximately) 10,000s likely died; but, no, not at Nanking. The vast majority of those who died at Nanking were conscripts (it's hard to call them soliders because, really, neither they nor their leaders were) and not all at the hands of the Japanese.

If you read the history, including primary resources from the IJA, you'll find that a) Chiang Kai-Shek bears a lot of responsibility for some very poor and ruthless decision (e.g. he burnt to the ground a near by city of 200,000 and scorched the earth all around the area leaving the peasantry without shelter means of substenance) and the Japanese army, trying to do the right thing amongst a highly threatening chaos caused by a lack of Chinese leadership.

The Chinese leaders all fled.

Viewed from the point of strict military law, many of the actions which might be ammalgamated into "atrocities" were actually lawful.

What the record shows is that the Japanese had order to capture, disarm and release prisons if they renounced the war effort, and that they did not play by the rule, i.e. they hid weapons, stripped uniforms, disguised themselves as civilians and re-grouped to carry out attacks on Japanese troups.

If you go deeper, there are even greater anomalies not explained by the "atrocity" theory, e.g. Japanese troups repatriatriating 1,000s of Chinese civilians back to Shanghai, back into Nanking and to other cities.

Had the Japanese carried out what was accused of them I hardly thing the civilians would have been queuing up to beg them to do so, and trusting them to go along with it.

Of course, none of these appears, nor are explained, by the usual moronic level of discussion of the subject.

But, yes, good history continues to be done about the subject, the slaughter of Chinese by Chinese at the Yijiang Gate is a good example. For decades the Japanese were blamed off that establishing a false foundation in minds such as yours.

It was only in the 1980s until the original authors recanted, at which point no one was listening.

What is most interesting into go back to the 40s and read official positions then, e.g. it not existing at all on the Chinese side, not in Mao's mind nor in Kai-Shek's.

Indeed, as I wrote accurately before, Mao actually stated that the Japanese ARmy made a tactical error in not killing off even more of the Nationalist's rabble.

That is reflected in the IJA orders which were not to kill and treat surrendering soldiers and civilians with respect.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

There is only ONE objective truth and that is thousands of innocent Chinese civilians got killed and raped by Imperial Japan soldiers in Nanking. That's all. The Chinese soldiers did not killed Chinese civilians. Chinese soldiers did not commit war crime. Do not try to switch the blame to Chinese soldiers. The Chinese in fact lack of good leadership and make some questionable decision but they did not killed Chinese civilians. The Yijing gate incident is unrelated and independent incident to the Nanking Massacre.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

No, I am sorry.

That is incorrect portrayal.

You've stated again

The Chinese soldiers did not killed Chinese civilians.

And yet the Chinese source from the year after clearly state precisely that.

As far as "killing chinese civilians", read up on Chiang Kai-Shek's breaching of the Yellow River banks in which he murdered one million Chinese men, women and children without warning.

The Chinese elite did not give a damn for the Chinese people. The KMT exploited traditional Chinese warfare techniques of "scorched earth" - burning down any shelter, any fuel, any crops or supplie - which killed millions of Chinese people.

Unlike the Japanese, they did not move around or repatriate civilians, they just left them to fend for themselves or die.

Those are the facts.

I can accept pretty much which ever total death figure you want, but you cannot assign it all to the Japanese. The evidence shows that the IJA was struggling with extremely difficult and lawless circumstances and that there is no one more brutal that one Chinese to another.

This is actually rooted in Chinese culture and its own martial culture which is quite different from Japan's.

Historically, Japan had a surprising lawful military code which did not, as a rule, target civilians, Hence why, in China you have cities with vast wall structures, like Nanking; and, in Japan, you simple don't. The castle are decorative and all barriers symbolic than defensive.

Scorched earth, genocide of civilians, atrocities and seiges were the hallmarks of Chinese warfare; whereas in Japan the battle tended to short, quick and between the samurai only. Sometimes only between leaders.

Seriously, read up on the history at a deeper level.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

We are talking about the Nankign massacre right? I recall the one guy in youtube with username August Hayek who try to deflect Nanking massacre issues by mentioning Yellow River incident although I'm not the one arguing with him. The Yellow River incident however is failure of KMT policy. It's original intention is to use the Yellow River to kill the Japanese soldiers but mistake cause it to kill Chinese civilians. Yellow River is miles away from the Nanking.

burning down any shelter, any fuel, any crops or supplie - which killed millions of Chinese people.

Source? Citation?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@ DonDon

I am sorry, DonDon, but that's school level history. Go read some books on the subject.

You ridiculously denied Chinese killed Chinese. I gave you an outrageous example where the corrupt Chinese leader murdered over a million chinese people in a futile effort. I could give you many more.

And do you that around 10,00s of Chinese were actually fighitng on the Japanese side? The estimate is around 100,000.

I am happy to give you pointers, but you have to go and do the homework yourself.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Sorry, you are off topic. We are discussing about the Nanking case, not the Yellow River which is geographically far away. Also the burden of proof lies upon claimant.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I cannot do the reading for you.

You've got to do the work yourself.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

As someone major in history, I can guarantee you there is no Chinese soldiers killing Chinese civilians in Nanking Massacre.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Well, you are shifting the goal posts slightly here because what we were talking about were Chinese soldiers killing other Chinese "soldiers".

However, given that the so call soldiers were forcibly conscripted civilians who had no training, no real desire to be involved with the fight, and in many cases, no weapons to fight with, it might be more correct to call them civilians.

There are, however, case on record of strangers attacking killing citizens for their food, clothing and belongings in attempts to hide from the Japanese Army.

Many such stragglers taking civilians clothing were because they still wore army underwear and were executed under military law.

Which area was your "major" in?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

As someone major in history, I can guarantee you there is no Chinese soldiers killing Chinese civilians in Nanking Massacre.

Thanks for the clarification. I ask my Japanese friend in Japan and he also told me the same thing that in Japan, their textbook didn't mention about Chinese soldiers killing Chinese civilians(forcibly conscripted or not) in their textbook in Nanking Massacre but instead, the Japanese textbook clearly mention and admit that it's the Japanese soldiers that killed those innocent Chinese civilians.

Back to our Japan-German topic.

A German was arrested by Japanese Right-wing in Yasukuni Shrine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui7jrQTEFGU

A German interrogated the leader of Japanese Right-wing.The German told the Japanese right winger that he would be arrested for his speech(probably about worshiping war criminal and denying Japan war crime) if he's in German.The Right-wing force denied the truth and arrest the German.

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'Had the German arrested', not 'arrested the German.'

Wow, it took around 30 cops to arrest that German! Including riot police with helmets!

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I am sorry but the level of history we are talking about is a little above school textbooks.

A German was arrested by Japanese Right-wing in Yasukuni Shrine

Another example of your inaccuracy and bad intentions.

That is a video of a scene created by a Canadian, Pierre Pariseau, who first interrupted an interview with Gen. Toshio Tamogami and then, secondly, refused to stop for police.

If he'd tried to refusing to stop for the police in the USA, he would have tasered and cuffed or shot.

It's an example of a rude foreigner asking a stupid question at the wrong time, and how reasonable the Japanese police are.

Pariseau was deliberately attempting to make a stink for whatever political agenda he has. Look at the end of the clip, he's clearly mentally unstable.

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@DonDon

You welcome. Yes, the Japanese do in fact admit it's the Japanese soldiers that killed those thousands of innocent Chinese civilians. That is their official stand.They never blame it on the Chinese. We also never heard that those Chinese soldiers were forcibly conscripted civilians. No such thing.

Contrary to popular belief, Japanese textbooks by no means avoid some of the most controversial wartime moments. The widely used textbooks contain accounts, though not detailed ones, of the massacre of Chinese civilians in Nanjing in 1937 by Japanese forces.(2) Some, but not all, of the textbooks also describe the forced mobilization of labor in the areas occupied by Japan, including mention of the recruitment of “comfort women” to serve in wartime brothels.(3) One clear lacuna is the almost complete absence of accounts of Japanese colonial rule in Korea.

http://www.nippon.com/en/in-depth/a00703/

The moment you hear someone said Nanking Massacre is propaganda/fabrication, that person pretty much lost it's credibility and I'm not going to waste my time replying someone not qualified enough to debate with me. I prefer discuss it with my colleagues. According to my colleague from Japan, there has been a lots of lies spread about Sino-Japan war by Japanese right wingers in the internet, especially in Japanese language websites(including the popular 2chan). Although respectable Japanese historians/scholars disagree with the right winger, they didn't really address because they thought it's not worth it(right winger like to make noise in black van which even the average Japanese ignore) and fear of getting death threat from the right winger. Many of the outlandish claim here can only be found in internet but among actual scholar, you won't find them making such statement.

My colleagues from Japan also propose two theories on why there are people in Japan deny Japanese war crime. The first one is because of nationalism which is self explanatory. The second reason, is because of ancestor worship. The descendant of those IJA soldiers who die during the war also deny Japan war crime .Although not IJA is bad, the war crime committed by other IJA has tarnish the image of all the IJA. As a result, this dishonor the deceased IJA soldiers and their descendant are upset. The descendant try to deny their war crime to honor their ancestor.

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Sorry, Squidward, there is no such thing as a state defined "Official" history in Japan.

It's not China.

Your knowledge of Chinese history is laughably scant.

What helps us understanding the history now is that we can take all the original reports of the events and explore them at a far greater depth to understand them, largely helped by Freedom of Information laws.

For example, we discover that The New York Times, under the publisher, Arthur Hays Sulzberger had a policy - set by Sulzberger personally - to provide assistance to the CIA whenever possible and the Times was by far its most valuable among newspapers. CIA employees being provided cover under various arrangements which raises doubts on the first reports.

Then we discover that none of the intial reports by foreigners, including Rabe etc, were witnessed.

They were just records of statements givenby Chinese informants.

Again, take as another example, "What War Means" by H. J. Timperley, a correspondent for the Manchester Guardian. It's taken to be an independent and reliable primary resource and yet we discover Timperley was actually by the Kuomintang (Nationalist Party) government’s Central Propaganda Department.

It was, in short, the product of an intense propaganda campaign to convince the world that the Japanese were fighting a war of aggression in which they used abhorrent tactics, just as China is again today attempting to reinforce that all over again.

Incidentally, the casuality figures the University of Nanking produced in 1938 accounted for about 26,000 deaths.

Who would be better placed to produce accurate statists ... foreign correspondents in the hire of various intelligence and propaganda agencies who were not witnesses and had left before fighting over over, or a local university shortly afterwards?

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Duh...the claim that H.J Timperley work for KMT is originally a claim made by Minoru Kitamura and such claim has receive criticism by other Japanese scholars. Recently, this claim has been revived by Saneki Shimbun, a famous right wing media so there pretty much no credibility there. It is said that H.J Timperley is one of the five head of London branch but somehow, they conclude he is from KMT just because of this.

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There is no question of doubt over Timperley's employment. His book was actually published by the Chinese Nationalist government.

Copies of them still exist.

Your attempt to discredit such obvious evidence by casting the "right wing" meme looks ridiculous.

Sorry, it might work in China were the use of "right wing" accusings has a history going back to Mao's propaganda wars, but it does not work in the rest of world.

And I'd skip the personal insults if you want to be taken seriously.

H. J. Timperley was an adviser of the International Information Division of the Central Propaganda Bureau of the Nationalist Party from 1939 to April 1941.

Source: *The West Australian, December 14, 1954>

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/52969509?

Your ball ...

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Timperley never work for Chinese Nationalist government. It's never been official confirmation. Your link says Timperley work in China for 11 years and become adviser to Chinese Ministry of Information in 1939 What War Mean is published on 1938..

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H. J. Timperley along with Earl Leaf was actually appointed to the International Department in 1938 as advisors to Chinese groups in the USA. Their work involved intelligence, liaison, and public relationships for the Chinese Nationalist government.

Try, "Chinese Propaganda in the United States during World War II' by Kuo-jen Tsang.

But I suspect regardless of what proof you are given you will argue that black is white and white is black?

Incidentally, another Pro-China propaganda group was headed by two "missionaries" Frank and Harry Price of the theological seminary at Nanking.

The Prices also worked for the Proaganda Department of the Chinese Nationalist Party and started lobbying in the USA for the USA to cut it's oil supplies to Japan and so were instrincally involved in the acceleration of the war.

The more one digs in to discover the true dynamics of the individuals involved, the more one has to question their motivations, and the neutrality and accuracy of the reports of International Committee.

The American missionaries, as missionaries have been used the world over by the British before them, were in essence double agents playing on both the China and American side against Japan.

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The research paper says in 1938, the International Department decided to widen it's activities in 1938 but it doesn't says Timperley is appointed in 1938.

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Do your own homework then.

What's clear is a wide range of collusion between the foreigners in Nanking and both the Chinese nationalists, the German Nazi Pary (in the case of Rabe), and the Anglo-American super powers in cooking up an exaggerated propaganda war.

In the case of the Missionaries, I would accept there was another religious/cultural dimension to their influence.

They were there to convert Chinese and establish their Christian empire. However, they too had an interest in falsely portray Japan as being overly brutal or irresponsible.

Anyone attempting to see the history as it was, rather than just reinforce the propaganda, has to erect filters to filter out all of these influences. Influences which have hidden in the past.

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What's clear is a wide range of collusion between the foreigners in Nanking and both the Chinese nationalists, the German Nazi Pary (in the case of Rabe), and the Anglo-American super powers in cooking up an exaggerated propaganda war.

If you are saying there is exaggeration in death toll in Nanking, then I agree with you. Nanking Massacre, where thousands of innocent Chinese civilians got killed by Japanese soldiers definitely is real and truly happen.

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Actually, the records of the International Committee that organized the safety zone only show 517 crimes. (The documents of the Safety Zone lists only 26 alleged cases of homicide).

Of those,

Witnessed crimes were 30 Unwitnessed crimes were 487

Cases with unnamed victims were 202

A total of 234 cases involving property damage (looting, arson, breaking and entering, etc.) Nothing serious.

Only one murder was actually witnessed and it was an official execution.

It's not enough to keep repeating the propaganda version, you have to present evidence.

There was no mention of a “Nanking Massacre” in a resolution passed at the League of Nations on 27 May 1938

There was no mention of a “Nanking Massacre” in a 9 day lecture entitled “On Protracted War” given by Mao Zedong starting on May 26.

There was no mention of a “Nanking Massacre” in Chiang Kai-Shek’s "Message to the Japanese People" printed by the Central Information Department (7 July 1938), nor in special issues of English-language magazines commemorating the first anniversary of the Second Sino-Japanese War published in Shanghai.

When the "Bates’ memorandum" was included in 'The Chinese Year Book: 1938-39' (1939) his reference to the massacre of Chinese was omitted again (the Year Book was compiled from official source material provided by the Chinese Council of International Affairs in Chongqing from official records from the Republic of China).

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If there are no mention of Nanking Massacre by Chiang Kai Shek, I guess that only man that it's not propaganda by KMT since if it is propaganda, Chiang would have mentioned it.

There are thousands of dead bodies in Nanking Memorial. Red Swatiska burried thousands of civilians bodies. There are also dead bodies thrown into the Yang Tze river.

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The Red Swatiska Society collected 1,793 bodies from within the walls and 29,998 from outside the walls. When including statistics from other groups, this rose to about 40,000.

Bate's estimate that 30% of these might have been civilians. I would not agree with that.

Why?

Only 129 out of those 40,000 (approx) were women or children.

If there was indiscrinimate deaths, e.g. from artillery, or atrocities targeting women as is claimed, one would expect that to me far more equal in proporation.

Given most civillians had fleed from Nanking, and the rest where in the Safety Zone, I think we can be secure in considering the vast majority of those death to be military related.

Included in those death would be badly wounded soldiers left by the Chinese Army, and the Chinese soldiers gunned down by theor comrade for attempting to escape, e.g. in the Hsiak'uan area.

The point I am trying to make is not that these are the complete picture, but that we can now be highly accurate in our analysis of the estimates, and safely filter out the more extreme claims.

One of the big problems was the indiscipline and lack of leadership within the Chinese forces. As the Japanese Army advance, most of their leaders ran leaving their soldiers behind them to fend for themselves. Unfortunately they did not "play by the rules" of war, e.g. surrendering in an orderly fashion in stead of disguising themselves as civilians or hidhing weapons etc.

The Japanese Army is portray as being unreasonable but, in fact, faced with an impossible situation, it acted as reasonably as it could.

Killing enemy soliders disguised as civilians and hiding weapons is not against the law, it's basic common sense during a war, however unpalatable it might seem in peace time.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Not all dead bodies are burried by Red Swatiska and civilians don't made up of women and children. In Nanking Massacre, men are in fact the target of the massacre. Watch this video. Confessions from former Imperial Japan soldiers and Nanking massacre survivor. One of the soldier claim it's quite easy to dispose thousands of people. It doesn't even take more than 30 minutes to do that.

The confession of Japanese military

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuiy-1LHJLc

Survivor From Nanjing Massacre (female)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWxMLCYekuU

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I am sorry but emotional single person points of view don't count for very much when you have highly extensive and accurate statistics, and evidence to work from.

The problem with today's propangandists attempting to exploit yesterdays war time propaganda is that so much evidence now exists that contradictions their claims and illustrates the greater complexities.

For example, did you know 2 million Chinese soldiers actually fought for Japan in a collaborationist army (like the Koreans did for the USA in VIetnam)?

How can you tell if a Chinese person carried out a crime against another Chines person -- as the Chinese army also did -- or a Japanese. Did the Japanese leave their hanko stamp on every victim?

Did you know Harold Timperley, the first to report atrocities, was a paid propagandist for the Nationalist Chinese government?

Did you know Japanese officers entering the Safety Zone to recruit Chinese girls for brothels found that, "a considerable number of young refugees stepped forward ( Chinese Collaboration in Nanking, Timothy Brook 2007).

Did you know the Chinese Nanking Self-Government Committee, an anti-Western body, helped round up Chinese men and boys for execution.

Did you know Japanese army actually collected and counted discarded uniforms in order to estimate the number of stragglers disguised as civilians and had help from Nanking citizen committee to identify them?

I could go on.

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I am sorry but emotional single person points of view don't count for very much when you have highly extensive and accurate statistics, and evidence to work from.

There's no emotional single point of view. There is not a single highly extensive and accurate statistic. It just your dillusion. John Rabe for example estimated 50,000 to 60,000 death toll. Modern historians Ikuhiko Hata estimate 40,000 civilians death toll. Anyway, all estimates are around tens of thousands.

The problem with today's propangandists attempting to exploit yesterdays war time propaganda is that so much evidence now exists that contradictions their claims and illustrates the greater complexities.

This is getting dull and boring. Do you have better argument instead of repetitively saying propaganda, propaganda, propaganda, propaganda? Oh well, I guess it's my turn to mention propaganda too. No, there isn't a single one evidence that contradict with their claim. Up until no, it's NEVER happen.

On the other hand, people who claim Nanking Massacre is propaganda is the one who have contradiction. I saw your other post where the title is 'Abe urge China not to focus on unfortunate past' where you mention about mainstream history vs alternate/right wing history. Do you know why the alternate mainstream NEVER agreed by majority and mainstream history is still mainstream? It because the very same people who claim Nanking is propaganda is the one who has propaganda as they have been caught lying and falsifying documents for their propaganda. For example, Shudo Higashinakano been sued by Japanese court itself. Tanaka Maasaki, who wrote 'What really happened in Nanking' has been caught for tampering document. All the people who deny Nanking massacre found themselves in controversy. The Chinese doesn't even need to try to refute their argument. The Japanese people themselves will refute their argument and expose their lies. That is why the alternate history has NEVER been accepted by most people because the people who make those claims are the one really have propaganda. Even though the Japanese scholars already successfully refute them, Japanese right winger still like to post their wrong and unreliable argument in the internet to spread lies. Ironic isn't it? People who claim Nanking massacre is propaganda is the one that got caught for having propaganda. In the end, people who deny the killing of innocent Chinese civilians by Imperial Japan is nothing more than barking dog.

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I think the division is not about "mainstream" versus "non-mainstream" but more between 'those who have not done the history' and 'those who are still doing the history.

The revelation of all the all the original sources coming from paid propagandists is a very important one as it forces us to go back and re-assess "mainstream" beliefs as deliberately falsified.

You seem to lack an understanding of how history and historians works. It's a highly specialised field and any genuine historian who has not studied an era or event would not voice an opinion about it. Very few have actually studied this event.

You need to separate populists milking a market for war time books, and fiction writers, from genuine historians. It's not a question of "right" versus "left".

I'd have no problem with the idea of 40,000 deaths. But what's notable is that only 129 of them women and children.

That suggests they were mainly military related (targeting male soliders or army workers).

There were female guerillas fighting for the Chinese but likely such a small proportion of clearly civilians deaths were likely to be accidental by products of a military assault.

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The revelation of all the all the original sources coming from paid propagandists is a very important one as it forces us to go back and re-assess "mainstream" beliefs as deliberately falsified.

There's non. Instead, it's the opposite. The people who claim revelation of original source come from paid propagandists are the same people who got sued and found tampering document. Men or women or children, doesn't matter becausethe amount of civilians death toll are much more than 129.

'These weren't soldiers, but civilians. Adults and children men and women. It was as if they filled the whole river. They flowed along slowly,like rafts. When I looked upstream, I saw a mountain of bodies that seemed to continue forever. From what I saw, there must have been fifty thousand bodies, and almost all of them were civilians' https://books.google.com.my/books?id=sszKBgAAQBAJ&pg=PT257&dq=These+weren%27t+soldiers,+but+civilians.+Adults+and+children+men+and+women.+It+was+as+if+they+filled+the+whole+river.&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAGoVChMI88zmr4j0xwIVzkyOCh1MHwBF#v=onepage&q=These%20weren't%20soldiers%2C%20but%20civilians.%20Adults%20and%20children%20men%20and%20women.%20It%20was%20as%20if%20they%20filled%20the%20whole%20river.&f=false

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If you believe Soka Gakkia Youth Division Antiwar Committee is a relaible source, there is no point us discussing. Soka Gakkia is a cult religion.

A simple test.

Ask a "historian" (a real one, not a wartime book writer and certainly not a cult member) if they knew Timperley - who basically started the whole thing off - was a paid propagandist for the Chinese Nationalists?

If the answer is no, then ask them whether, as a Historian, this fact would have to make them re-assess their assumptions about the roots of the myth?

I think you'll find the answers are, "No" and "Yes".

You can then keep peeling off the layers of the mythic version of events with all the other stunning anomalies and hidden dynamics, e.g. the collusion of the American Communist Party and right wing Nationalist supports in the USA to establish an anti-Japan consensus through the media and across society.

Now, the fact is, they did.

But how many Americans are aware of the fact the Communist Party shaped their point of view?

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I didn't realize they are religious cult. Doesn't matter because John Rabe estimates the death toll is 50000 to 60000 and most historians in Japan itself today also estimates around 40 000 civilians death toll.

Sorry, that still doesn't prove Nanking Massacre is propaganda. Nice cherry picking. You do realize that Japan have propaganda in America. As a matter of fact, Japan already has propaganda in America even before the war and spend like 2 million on propaganda in America. Japan, look yourself into the mirror before criticizing others of having propaganda.

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