Students run the gauntlet of ridiculous school regulations

I am sorry, I have been in Japan a very long time (I am a really old guy) teaching at university level.

i think most of your politically correct bs is ridiculous. The teachers charter is to enforce both learning and socially acceptable behavior. That means enforcing stated rules. The only issue I have is how he told her. Was it in private or in front of the class? In private would be appropriate.

It is not sexual harassment when professionally pointing out an infraction. These days sexual harassment is out of control. I think guidelines must be legally defined as it is far to easy to play this card, the same as the race card is played elsewhere.

Discipline is essential in the classroom. If the offending student had not been counseled I guarantee that 'the other students would know it and see this as an opening for other behaviors. Kids will be kids.

I don’t think kids get to self determine their desired gender. Boys have certain parts and girls other, so any special considerations, at such young ages, may in fact be harmfulI

I know that many many of you will disagree and criticize me, have at it.

Agreed.

Have a good weekend.

We can agree that if the remark was made by itself it was inappropriate. If the remark was made as PART OF a disciplinary action then maybe he was justified.

Regardless of what happened because neither of us will actually know what happened.

So lets agree to that

My analysis of the situation is that she broke the rule, he said "I can see your bra color, it's not white, please put on your Jersey and don't make the same mistake tomorrow"

Of course she was embarrassed by that and when Kuchikumi quoted her they merely cropped the quote to suit their aim of making the article juicy and provocative.

You're making ALOT MORE than 2 assumptions

To be fair to you-

there is one part where they mention a classmate got a nose job which was against the rules, but that was not the student the magazine interviewed. It was an unnamed classmate. Read the article again. Its asking students to name bizarre rules at their school. Not interviewing students who broke the rules. There is nothing to suggest the girl broke the rules.

But let's just say for the sake of argument that she did. It would still be wrong for the teacher to tell her that he could see the color of her bra.

Lets agree to this, had he followed up with disciplinary action, then maybe it would have been ok. But to make that remark and end it there was inappropriate.

Can we agree to that?

Aly the article is about strange rules and students who break those rules.

again, please show me where it says ANYTHING about breaking the rules. Where?

If the student was in compliance with the school rule, why would they be included in the article,

because the article is about strange rules. NOT about the students who break them. AGain, PLEASE show me where there is ANY mention of a student who breaks the rules.

moreover, I think it's unlikely that the teacher would reference the color of the bra if it had been white. The whole topic and usage of vocabulary imply that she was wearing something other than white, that was visible through her clothing.

I think you're grabbing at straws here. Here's the whole story.

A high school student in Tohoku told the magazine her school required that both upper and lower undergarments were required to be white. "I was really embarrassed when a male teacher told me that he could see the color of my bra through my blouse," she related. 

As was mentioned before, the undergarments would have been visible whether or not they were white, so why make that remark? Especially when that was all the teacher said. If he was saying it to scold her he would have said something else. But to just tell her that he could see the color of her bra? Even if she was not wearing a white bra (even though there is no indication she wasn't) it STILL would be inappropriate.

Just to only remark that he can see her bra color and say nothing else? Come on. You know deep inside it was wrong. You just don't say that.

I suspect she was not complying with the uniform standard,

Why do you suspect that? Tell me.

and hence he called her out on it.

No he didn't AT ALL. He merely made a comment that he could see her bra. VERY inappropriate. He didn't call her out on anything. Just made a comment.

The article does not specify if she was in compliance or not, from the nature of the article it should be assumed that she was not.

The nature of the article is talking about strange rules. It is not talking about non compliance of rules. NOTHING to suggest she broke the rules.

He did his job and he did the right thing.

If you think sexual harrassment is part of his job description

If the teacher could see identify the color, something was not the way it should have been. He, nor the other boys in the room should have been able to see the color.

Then the teacher should have talked to school administration NOT tell the girl that he can see the colour of her bra.

Remember, she was wearing A SCHOOL UNIFORM ISSUED BY THE SCHOOL.

So if he wants to make a comment, he should make it to the school. Telling the girl that he can see the color of her bra is inappropriate.

"If the teacher allows that debauchery to persist for 50 minutes for all to see he’s doing a disservice to everyone in the room."

Calling a visible bra strap debauchery is a little over the top. If you can't study or pay attention to the teacher because a bra strap is visible the problem isn't with the wearer of the bra. But your post is indicative of the kinds of, how to say this, backwards views that generate such rules. It's not that far from the Iranian or Saudi religious police punishing women for showing their ankles or too much hair in public. Lighten up.

Please show me where in the article it says that her underwear was available

sorry visible not available

The right thing to do is to immediately put an end to the situation and order the student to either put on their sports jersey or to leave to the principals office.

A. He didn't do that. Just mentioned that he could see the color of her bra so what's the point of the comment?

B. and if she was adhering to the school rules and wearing a white bra as per school rules? which would still render her bra visible?

The comment was useless and inappropriate

To make it visible is actually a crime and particularly wrong in a place like a school because the teacher and the other students are forced to be in your presence.

The teacher has to be in the room for 50 minutes by law unable to voluntary leave the inappropriate situation. The same goes for the other students.

Do you have a link to this claim?

The color of my underwear is 100% unbeknownst to everyone around me in public, even on the hottest days.

I'm talking about undershirts.

If the color of your underwear is visible there are only 3 possibilities:

You're careless with the choice of your clothing.

You're careless with your buttons or zipper or something like that.

You're careless with your posture.

In any case, in civil society your underwear should not be visible.

The girl's underwear was not visible.

The rest of the students nor the teacher should have to put up with underwear in view for the entire class.

They didn't.

Please show me where in the article it says that her underwear was available

And I also want to address flute’s comment

Just to point out : nothing in the article indicate that the student was not wearing a white bra.

Moreover according to lady if you want your undies not to be shown you do not choose white but skin color. I even read some article about some company which have the skin color bra in the uniform for this reason (perhaps an airline one, it was a while ago, I do not remember which it was). 

So if the objective is for the undies not to be seen, forcing white is a bad choice.

So she may very well have been wearing a white bra and following the school regulations. Which means that her bra would still have been visible under school regulations

Which would make his comments all the more ludicrous since adhering to school uniform standards would have still rendered her bra visible

I said we would wear underwear that was visible through/under our uniform - exactly like the girl in the article. There is no difference at all.

except that Do you want to make the male teachers uncomfortable. Your words. That’s not what was happening with this girl. She was embarrassed.

Yeah, it's morally offensive for females to do anything that would acknowledge that they have undergarments, or that they even exist

You said that. I didn’t

And I’m the one arguing that the male teacher was wrong and the female student should not have been told that. In case you missed it

If the school's approved uniform allows for the bra to been visible, the uniform policy needs to be rectified.

If the student's choice of bra color allows for her bra to be visible, he choice is inappropriate.

The bra was not visible. He could only make up the color. It’s not the same thing. You didn’t read the article carefully did you?

Either way, the bra color should not be visible to the teacher nor the other students, if it is something is wrong and a professional learning environment does not exist in that classroom while that situation persists.

That is ridiculous. Just because the color of a bra not even the bright self can be seen does not make it an unprofessional learning environment. This is ridiculous

If a student's undergarments are visible, either intentionally because of the student's deliberate choice of fashion or sitting posture, or accidentally, like a undone button, the teacher has a duty to rectify the situation immediately.

Again that’s not your call to make or a male teachers call to make.

And by the way, are you not aware that your undershirt is usually visible under your white shirt? What gives you the right to have a visible T-shirt or undershirt under your dress shirt but then Bully a girl just because you can see the color of her bra?

*If it was indeed extremely indecent exposure like you used to do when you were a kid Cleo, it would be different.*

Beg pardon??

I said we would wear underwear that was visible through/under our uniform - exactly like the girl in the article. There is no difference at all.

It was not extremely indecent exposure at all, just stupid teenage tastelessness and bravado. Coloured bras that showed through the uniform shirt we had to wear, just like the girl in the article. Knee-length knickerbockers with lace peeping out from under our skirts - fashionable at the time, though definitely not part of school uniform.

Maybe not having semi-see-through blouses as part of the compulsory school uniform would be an idea.

Invalid CSRF

Just to point out : nothing in the article indicate that the student was not wearing a white bra.

Moreover according to lady if you want your undies not to be shown you do not choose white but skin color. I even read some article about some company which have the skin color bra in the uniform for this reason (perhaps an airline one, it was a while ago, I do not remember which it was).

So if the objective is for the undies not to be seen, forcing white is a bad choice.

As Aly Rustom, I do not get why any man could even think to go to a teenage girl to say he can see her bra no matter if the bra is following the dress code or not.

The kuchikomi article does not state what the teacher said in full, merely an excerpt. We do not know if he said it in a lustful way or in a disciplinary manner along with "cover up immediately, there are 20 boys in this room"

I'm stating that if the teacher could see her bra, the younger boys and girls almost certainly could also as well.

Therefore he has a duty, as the adult in the room who's paid to maintain order and decorum, to say something. Not only to stop the situation but to point out to everybody that that type of exposure is inappropriate and nobody's underwear color should be visible to anybody else in public.

The worst thing he can possibly do is simply say nothing and allow something that shouldn't be happening in a classroom to happen.

Doesn’t matter. He shouldn’t have said that to her it was inappropriate. And the fact of the matter is, a professor at a Japanese university weighed in and said it was inappropriate and a form of sexual harassment.

Like I told you before and I’ll tell you again, I have had experience in education here in Japan. You haven’t. And if a Japanese professor shares the same opinion as me, I’d say we’re more in the right than you are. Get a few years of teaching at a Japanese high school under your belt before you make judgment calls like that

It was inappropriate and it was not the right thing to say to the girl

> The teacher who immediately ends the situation is the gentlemen, the guy who teaches a girl with her bra in view is the perv.

The teacher in question did not do anything about the situation. He merely rtold the girl that he could see the color of her bra through her shirt. The guy is a perv.

There was no indecent exposure involved whatsoever. Being able to see the color of a bra through a shirt is not indecent exposure. If it was indeed extremely indecent exposure like you used to do when you were a kid Cleo, it would be different. Again I’m not going to comment on the what if’s and what about like burning bush wants to do. I’m only going to comment on this particular incident.

In this particular incident there was absolutely no reason to make that comment to that girl. And therefore that comment was inappropriate.

There was nothing that had to be said. So the teacher could see the color of her bra through her shirt. Do you really think that warrants a comment from him? It was a totally inappropriate comment.

Yes. Ditto teachers who stop the class to go out and find a teacher of the opposite sex to come in and talk to a student - in front of the whole class? - about a matter that could be cleared up with just a quiet word.

then wait for the class to end.

Now that - having a teacher come in specifically to point out in the middle of the lesson that one's underwear was on show - that would be truly embarrassing.

If something needs saying, then just say it and get on with the lesson.

There was nothing that had to be said. So the teacher could see the color of her brown from her shirt. Do you really think that warrants a comment from him to her? That’s ridiculous. both of you

teachers who pretend they don't see infractions and ignore them are poor teachers.

Yes. Ditto teachers who stop the class to go out and find a teacher of the opposite sex to come in and talk to a student - in front of the whole class? - about a matter that could be cleared up with just a quiet word.

Then leave the classroom find the female teacher and have her deal with it.

Now that - having a teacher come in specifically to point out in the middle of the lesson that one's underwear was on show - that would be truly embarrassing.

If something needs saying, then just say it and get on with the lesson.

Invalid CSRF

High School girls are not stupid, if their bra is visible through their shirt it's intentional.

You don’t know that. And you don’t have any right to make that call. You weren’t there.

If it's intentional, she deserves to be warned about it and told to cover up immediately otherwise she's committing indecent exposure to the other students in the room who deserve a proper learning environment.

Then leave the classroom find the female teacher and have her deal with it.

If it's not intentional, like a button undone and she doesn't know about it, then it's common courtesy to point out, "Excuse me, but something that shouldn't be exposed, is exposed, you might want to cover up asap"

Again see the above

In either case, ignoring it and allowing the indecent exposure to continue is the worst course of action. The underwear exposure should be stopped immediately, it should not be happening in a classroom.

And this is not considered indecent exposure. Just because the teacher was peering through a girls blouse and happened to see not her bra but just the color of it is not indecent exposure at all. Also, Her button was not undone. You are again using scenarios that are completely different from the above case. Just because you want to make a point that’s completely incorrect.

Again I ask you how much teaching experience do you have in Japan? 

My career is not the issue here, but I do know enough about teaching that there's a famous maxim.

It is very much the issue here. It goes to show whether you understand the teaching environment here in Japan or not. And judging by You are defensive reply I’m going to assume that you have zero teaching experience in Japan. At least in public high schools anyway. That means you’re not qualified to make a judgment call on what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior in a Japanese high school.

What you tolerate you teach.

In other words, teachers who pretend they don't see infractions and ignore them are poor teachers.

Actually what you just said is the exact definition of what a poor teacher is. A teacher who only has one answer for everything and one way of doing everything. There are different rules for high schools in different countries. Moreover, there are different rules for each and every high school in Japan. However what the teacher did is absolutely unacceptable. At least in A Japanese high school. It may be acceptable in Russia. But it is not in Japan.

cleo

"It is the job of the FEMALE teachers to inspect the FEMALE students and MALE teachers the MALE students"

Slippery slope...whose job is it to inspect the trans/bi/gay students?

Whichever gender the trans student identifies as should be the gender of the teacher who speaks with them about this stupid archaic rule.

As for the bi and gay students, whichever gender they are would dictate the gender of the teacher. The fact that they are bi or gay has nothing to do with it.

That would be sexual harassment 

Why is harassment if a boy does it but not harassment if a girl does it? More likely than not she knew her bra was visible and she knew her teacher would see it

You said the boy would expose himself to the female teacher. That implies that it was Intentional. The girl in this case does not appear to have done anything intentionally. Therefore the scenarios that you paint are completely different and what is more, do not apply here at all

Again I ask you how much teaching experience do you have in Japan? It is important for me to know how much teaching experience that you have because it is pertinent that you understand the general dynamics of how Japanese high school works and the role and jobs of the educators in this country. This may be appropriate behavior back in your country. It is certainly not appropriate behavior in Japan. And I promise you burning bush, if you did something like what the teacher did above you would Get into big trouble if somebody complained about you. The teacher is very lucky that the girl didn’t complain about him

You seem to be implying that female teachers are less competent than male teachers and only a male teacher is strong enough to handle discipline of the boys.

No I said if a student exposed himself to a female teacher she should get a male teacher to deal with anything sexual. Please don’t put words in my mouth

Regardless of the gender, the teacher is responsible for the room for 50 minutes. If he or she can see a student's undergarments than that means all the other 40 students can see it too.

Saying something about it is not going to change the fact. Whether or not the male teacher chooses to say something about it will not change that fact. So therefore he should wait until after the class and have a female teacher say something about it

Any one of those 40 students, boy or girl could tell their parents that so and so was openly wearing a see-through shirt in class and the teacher did nothing about it for 50 minutes.

And here in Japan the parents would understand that it’s not a male teachers job to tell a female student that. They would understand that the male teacher was acting appropriately.

In effect the students were victims of indecent exposure and the teacher allowed it to happen. Well if they did than he or she is incompetent. The teacher's duty is to be in command of the room and to make sure that nothing inappropriate is happening during their 50 minutes of being leaders of the room.

Allowed it to happen? So the teacher should make the girl take off her bra?

Aly, if a student's button was undone, intentional or not, and something that shouldn't be visible was, would you say something or just ignore it for 50 minutes while that student's privates were exposed to you and all the other students?

Again that’s not what happened here. you use a lot of what if’s. There are different rules for different situations. What this teacher did was not correct. You try to justify your argument by using a lot of what if’s that have nothing to do with the situation at hand. I’m only going to comment on the situation.

What the teacher did in that particular situation above was inappropriate. Please don’t bother me anymore with what if’s scenarios that you want to play out in your head. Focus on this particular situation and only this situation.

Commanteer, a second slice of pie? Depravity? Oh it is, it is! Bring on the pie, now where is the cream to go with it!?

On a more sensible note, excessive laxity can also counter productive and schools that were failing have been turned around by introduction of uniforms and enforcement of school rules. There is no single simple solution. Also it is to be noted the two schools mentioned are in wealthy areas with no doubt parents who have high expectations for the children. Quite possibly a major factor in the success of the experiment is the location and background of the children as much as the rule changes. Whether schools in other socioeconomic areas would respond in the same way is yet to be shown.

Aly, I simply believe that the teacher should call out a student if they’re doing something wrong like exposing their underwear.

But that's not what happened here.

If a boy exposed his underwear to a female teacher should she tolerate it in silence for 50 minutes until she has a chance to tell a male teacher to do something about it?

That would be sexual harassment and she should immediately leave the room and bring in a male teacher to deal with it

Just out of curiosity, how many years of HS teaching do you have Bush?

I agree, the inspections should be done by female teachers.

But if her bra is visible during the course of the lesson he can’t just pretend nothing is happening for 50 minutes and enjoy then show.

He should tell her to cover up immediately because in society it’s wrong to expose your undergarments to others in public.

He did the right thing by calling out her poor behavior and setting an example for other students that such debauchery won’t be openly tolerated.

No. He should pretend that he didn't see it and inform a female teacher. And if he "enjoys the show" that's a different problem altogether.

If the student’s undergarments are visible during the normal course of the lesson something is wrong.If the teacher allows that debauchery to persist 

While you may have a point, calling visible undergarments "debauchery" is like calling a second slice of pie "depravity."

If the student’s undergarments are visible during the normal course of the lesson something is wrong.

If the teacher allows that debauchery to persist for 50 minutes for all to see he’s doing a disservice to everyone in the room.

Her undergarments should not be visible. Period.

If he can see them, he should warn her and she should cover up, especially if boys are in the room.

Teachers are not just instructors, they are responsible for making sure inappropriate behavior does not occur at school.

Her bra should not have been visible.

regardless. It is not his place to tell a female student that. And I'll take the word of an associate professor at Nagoya University graduate school over the judgment of some random poster on JT thanks very much

From the article.

Ryo Uchida, an associate professor at Nagoya University graduate school, described the regulation as one of the few that has persisted "since Showa times," adding, "Normally it's the job of female instructors to perform these checks; for a man to make such a remark is outright sexual harassment." 

Slippery slope...whose job is it to inspect the trans/bi/gay students?

the student's sexual orientation isn't the issue here. Whether gay bi or straight, the student should be inspected by a teacher of the same gender.

as for transgender students, my guess is that a female teacher would probably be less awkward than a male

A quick word to the girl is surely a lot less embarrassing to all concerned than dragging another person into it.

A quick word to the girl is surely a lot less embarrassing by a female teacher than a male one.

When I was at secondary school we would deliberately wear underwear that was visible through/under our uniforms, precisely because we got a laugh out of the discomfort of male teachers who didn't feel able to keep us in line. It wouldn't have been as much fun, and so we probably wouldn't have done it, if the male teachers had been able to deal with it without blushing or stuttering.

Well I'm happy for you getting your jollies that way cleo. But I've been there. I was an educator at a high school and I have had instances like this where I neither blushed nor stuttered. I simply spoke quietly to a female teacher about what I saw and the situation was dealt with swiftly.

Invalid CSRF

It is the job of the FEMALE teachers to inspect the FEMALE students and MALE teachers the MALE students

Slippery slope...whose job is it to inspect the trans/bi/gay students?

Then he can report it to a female teacher.

A quick word to the girl is surely a lot less embarrassing to all concerned than dragging another person into it.

When I was at secondary school we would deliberately wear underwear that was visible through/under our uniforms, precisely because we got a laugh out of the discomfort of male teachers who didn't feel able to keep us in line. It wouldn't have been as much fun, and so we probably wouldn't have done it, if the male teachers had been able to deal with it without blushing or stuttering.

Invalid CSRF

Hey, teachers. Leave those kids alone!

I’m not paid to discipline the student in question, he is.

He's not paid to discipline. He's paid to teach.

I presume like other teachers, he’s not paid just to discipline the students of his gender, he’s paid to discipline all of them.

Even if its ok to Discipline, commenting on a girl's undergarments is A BIG FAT NO

If there are 15 girls and 15 boys in the room he’s responsible for all 30 of them.

He’d be a poor teacher if he became squeamish when having to discipline his female student.

No he would be a professional and intelligent teacher. I've worked in Japanese high schools before. This would get you fired

She broke the rules, all the students know it and if he doesn’t call her out immediately he’s a poor teacher.

Then talk to her parents.

What if she exposed her top as a joke, should he wait and get a female teacher?

Again, that's not what happened here. Enough with the what ifs.

No, he should immediately point out the violation and take control of the room, otherwise it will become a zoo.

By telling a girl he can see the color of her bra? That's your idea of discipline?

I'm surprised they didn't mention hair colour. Many schools have traditionally assumed everyone must have straight jet black hair, with any deviation from this a disciplinary matter.

Regarding the end of the article, from what I can gather, a number of the top public SHS in Nagano do not have a uniform. I've read comments saying the top STEM school, the only kokuritsu SHS in Nagano Prefecture, has kids with dyed hair and pierced ears. So none of these arbitrary rules can be connected to academic achievement and they are more likely to affect people lower down the ladder.

It is in his job description to visually inspect the students every morning to confirm that they are conforming to specified uniform standards.

It is the job of the FEMALE teachers to inspect the FEMALE students and MALE teachers the MALE students

If he didn't say anything he'd be negligent in his duties.

Then he can report it to a female teacher.

What if the student is sitting inappropriately in his presence, should he pretend not to see or summon a female teacher to scold her?

That's not what happened here.

No, he should immediately tell the student that a part of her clothing that shouldn't be visible is and that she will be punished for future such infractions as she's behaving improperly, disrespecting him, herself and the other students and his job is to correct that behavior.

Again, bring it to the attention of a female teacher. Telling a HS girl that he can see the color of her bra is inappropriate.

The guy did the right thing.

Ok then. You try telling a HS girl that. I'd love to sit back and watch the consequences! LOL

A high school student in Tohoku told the magazine her school required that both upper and lower undergarments were required to be white. "I was really embarrassed when a male teacher told me that he could see the color of my bra through my blouse," she related. 

Disturbing that he was looking in the first place...

Ryo Uchida, an associate professor at Nagoya University graduate school, described the regulation as one of the few that has persisted "since Showa times," adding, "Normally it's the job of female instructors to perform these checks; for a man to make such a remark is outright sexual harassment." 

Some schools have required that the face masks worn by students be no color except white, and in extreme cases, that they be "Abenomasks" supplied free of charge from the government. 

OOOOKKKKAAAYYYY......

A 20-year-old man named Kenta recalls that at his school, purple objects were banned. "The aim was to curb delinquent behavior, as purple was popular among yankii (delinquent) students."  

So I guess the Joker wouldn't be very welcome there?

At the school 19-year-old Yuki attended, cosmetic surgery was banned. When her classmate had a nose job, she was singled out by the teacher and obliged to write a letter of apology. 

Oh thank god! While I was reading it I was worried the teacher might have tried to damage her nose in some way.

At another school, girls were prohibited from wearing their hair in pony tails, because -- are you ready for this? -- "girls' exposing the nape of their necks might arouse boys' erotic feelings." 

Those harlots!! Burn them at the stake!!

Another absurd rule prohibits imbibing of coffee or tea beverages by high school students, due to the belief that caffeine is "unhealthy for young people." But the catch is, the school does not ban students from drinking of health elixirs or energy drinks that are chock full of caffeine. 

Yeah. It kind of reminds me of when they say that you have to be 20 to buy cigs, BUT you can work in a smoke infested coffee shop or Izakaya from 16 and inhale even more harmful second hand smoke til ya puke yer lungs out! LMAO!

I remember a similar article some years ago that included limitations on the amount of toilet paper (measured in centimeters) students were allowed to use. I don't even want to think how that was monitored, or how violators were penalized.

Burning Bush - It's never OK for a male teacher to point out the undergarments of any female that isn't his girlfriend/wife, but especially if it's a student.