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Christmas tree or holiday tree?

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Hope about Festivus tree

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Xmas tree. Those who can't deal with the history of it can move to a country that doesn't have them. Places like the US and Canada have had this tradition for years. Pathetic that the PCness is making this an issue.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

This seems to be a uniquely American problem, though I did read this week that Montreal removed all nativity scenes from public places after Muslim groups complained.

This reminds me of a Jewish colleague in my office a few years go. He objected when we put a Christmas tree up in the office. He insisted that a Hanukkah wreath be put up. When anyone wished him a merry Christmas, he would actually tell them he was Jewish and that he didn't observe Christmas and added that it would have been nice if people wished him happy Hanukkah.

I never could understand that mentality. Very few Japanese would even know what and when Hanukkah is. Also, wishing someone merry Christmas is just like saying good morning, so I couldn't see why he would be offended.

He calmed down a bit in succeeding years and continued to ask that a star not be put on top of the Christmas tree.

It's a weird world we are living in.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

“It’s all about the baby Jesus. We tend to almost forget this.”

Remind me, what does a pagan decorated evergreen have to do with the baby Jesus?

That said, of course it's a Christmas tree. Christmas ain't a holiday here unless it falls on a Sunday. Calling it a holiday tree is rubbing salt into the wound.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

This seems to be a uniquely American problem Sadly it isn't. It is a Canadian issue as well. I was told YEARS ago to wish customers "Happy Holidays" so I didn't offend anyone. The Muslims that complained in Canada... would they support a christian complaining about Ramadan celebrations in a traditional Muslim country? Doubt it. I get this is only a few jerks complaining but why isn't the larger Muslim community commenting on this? Why isn't the Jewish community commenting? It doesn't exactly foster community relationships and spirit. "We're" asked to bend backwards to accept people from various backgrounds and the like but yet, it seems the tolerance only goes one way. Xmas concerts and the like are done for in many schools now. I find it sad.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

Well, it certainly isn't a Hanukkah, New Years or Kwanza tree.

The practice of bringing greens into the house during mid-winter in Europe dates from pagan times. Jesus, if he even existed, would have been born in the fall according to New Testament "history." His alleged birth date was moved to midwinter to coincide with long established pagan solstice celebrations in a (apparently quite successful) move to marry Christianity with pagan tradition. The tree has always been associated with Christmas in the U.S., the pagan origins long forgotten/suppressed. Calling it a "holiday tree" is stupid, unlike the salutation of "Happy Holidays" that addresses Hanukkah, Christmas, New Years and even Kwanza.

My favorite lawn displays in the U.S. are those featuring a creche on one side of the lawn with Santa and his reindeer on the other. Covering all the bases, you know.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Considering the federally mandated holiday is called "christmas", it is stupid to call it anything else. The naming of the tree is a joke. Everyone KNOWS it's a christmas tree, why try to pretend otherwise

As for the term "happy holidays", it's offensive to everyone. A weak, PC infested phrase that assumes that everyone is so thin-skinned as to be offended by a simple greeting. Plus, the athiests among us may be offended by the word "holiday", which is an abbreviation of "holy day". Wishing a non-religious person to have a great religious day is terrible, isn't it?

I wonder if Thanksgiving and Easter bring equal squaling from those with nothing better to do...

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Those who can't deal with the history of it can move to a country that doesn't have them. Places like the US and Canada have had this tradition for years.

Of course the Yule tree didn't originate in the US or Canada. In fact, before it's profitability was discovered, the church attempted to abolish celebrating Christmas. As to the history of the tree:

Early Romans marked the solstice with a feast called the Saturnalia in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture. The Romans knew that the solstice meant that soon farms and orchards would be green and fruitful. To mark the occasion, they decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs. In Northern Europe the mysterious Druids, the priests of the ancient Celts, also decorated their temples with evergreen boughs as a symbol of everlasting life. The fierce Vikings in Scandinavia thought that evergreens were the special plant of the sun god, Balder.

But it doesn't matter. I've never felt comfortable when a government endorses one religion over another, especially when it's done to woo voters or cash.

http://www.history.com/topics/history-of-christmas-trees

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I thought everyone knew that the Norwegian Spruce typically used is brought into the house some time after Halloween as a scratching post for Sandy Claws.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I really hate this stuff. I am not at all religious. In fact I am fairly well against the concept of organized religion. But at the same time I respect that the world has a heritage that includes religion.

Now I grew up with Christmas and people feeling just fine about a manger scene in the city park. And to be honest I still don't care if there are Christian elements in the city park. As long as it isn't to heavily influencing government.

I love Christmas. I enjoy the pagan and Christian elements and try to just enjoy the holiday. I don't understand why we have to be so PC that we have to ruin holidays to keep some killjoy happy.

Instead, let's just celebrate all the holidays that are represented in our community and try to appreciate culture diversity by sharing it with each other rather than blocking it all off.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

On a slightly more serious note, I believe that Yule Tree would actually be the most correct expression. So Borscht got a thumbs up for his informative post.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Of course the Yule tree didn't originate in the US or Canada.

Something doesn't have to originate in a certain country to be considered part of the culture. If you judged things based on that, most of the world could make claims to any of the religious protocol they follow. It also doesn't have to follow certain restrictions based on past faiths and beliefs. The problem here is that this tradition has been around for hundreds of years and is now being pushed aside by a group of people who seem to think that they get to call the shots even thought in terms of the history of the countries, they are new. Another part of the issue is that "our" beliefs would be shoved aside in any of the countries their faith is the majority of. It is give and take. "We" seem to be giving a look, "they" seem to be taking a lot. That type of relationship doesn't work.

Personally, I don't care about the religious aspects of it. It is seen as one aspect of culture. Why do "we" need to change it for "them'? It is also a national holiday - 'they' get time off. I don't see them complaining about that.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Live and let live.

Reason why back home it is illegal to publicise your creed or political affiliation. Religion should be in your heart/mind and not on your sleeve and used/abused to put others down.

I say Little Children: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3TK54iyGjc

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

I think it is the height of hypocrisy for stores and malls to benefit so much from Christmas shopping, but refuse to acknowledge the holiday that the season represents. They take the money from Christmas shoppers and can't say "Merry Christmas"...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Regardless of their origins, traditions and customs are what binds us as a culture and society.

My grandparents grew up with a Christmas Tree My parents grew up with a Christmas Tree I grew up with a Christmas tree My friends and neighbors all grew up with Christmas trees (most of them anyways)

I want my kids to have the same experience as I did and the same traditions that our ancestors had.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Easter will be the next victim of PC. That too was a pagan (I think Norse) festival that Chrisianity utilised when they coverted my ancestors. Many of the churches in England were deliberately built on old pagan sites for convenience. Scrooge summed it all up in two words.....Bah Humbug. Long live Yuletide and Christmas trees.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I prefer Potato and Kasha Kinishes, Blintzes, and Potato Latkas with a good bagel with chicken liver and onions.

Christmas trees take up too much space, and they should not be killed for the enjoyment of a silly holiday.

I prefer to sign petitions to save the trees rather than save the whales.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Its easy to defend the traditions you grew up with. But I wonder how some non-Jewish staunch Christmas tree defenders would feel if a supermarket clerk heartily wished them a Happy Hannukah? Maybe they would think it quaint. Or if the white posters were wished a Happy Kwanza? I think most would say "What?" and walk away in confusion. But what seals it is if they are non-Muslim, and a guy in a turban boisterously wished them a Good Ramadan. That would inspire glares I think.

What really makes this a tough knot is the fact that both the defenders of the Chistimas tree and the PC pirates are just as wrong as the other. So how to sort it? I was thinking we might do this by asking ourselves: What would Jesus suggest? It is after all, its his birthday celebration, and the holiday of Christmas bears his name and so does the tree if you call it a Christmas tree.

Well, I think Jesus would agree that everyone should not be so thin-skinned. I think he would say people should smile at the term Christmas tree as much as being wished a Good Ramadan. And I think that he would say that if the people want to call it a Christmas tree, he will accept that and all should.

And while he might accept it, I think he might also express some dissatifaction with the name. He might express a preference for something else, something that does not link his day to something that is probably doing more to take away from his messages of peace and love and tolerance than promote them. Perhaps he might suggest Tannebaum, which just means fir tree? That if everyone still wants to keep the tree despite Jesus not particularly liking it. In fact, I think he might even express a desire to see Chistmas celebrated on his actual birthday, and all the Santa, reindeer and Tannebaum stuff be happily kept on the 25th but called something else?

Then I suppose the Pope would declare: " If that hippie is done talking, listen to me, cause I am the Pope! We will not allow this secularization of Christmas to ruin our pagan traditions!"

Face it. The whole thing needs sorted, and every good Christian ought to know so. Sadly, I don't think the Christmas tree made the best rallying point to promote the fact. Then again, maybe it will. I hope so. I like the traditions of Christmas well enough, but I find the modern version somewhat insulting to Jesus and I don't even believe in him.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I'm with the yule-tide tree.

Remind me, what does a pagan decorated evergreen have to do with the baby Jesus?

It's called coopting. It's a very clever way to get people on your side. Don't pretend you didn't know.

To you Xtians. Call it what it is, a Christmas tree. I mean, I'm not a Jew or Buddhist but I don't feel offended if someone celebrates Hannukah or Hanamatsuri or whatever exuberantly. Don't shrink from your belief's holidays. I mean, c'mon, I'm sure as hades going to celebrate my personal holidays and call them what they are. None of this hush-hush, call it by any other name nonsense. It's transparent and weak.

Holiday Tree sounds corporate-generic, it sounds like marketing-speak. It sounds lazy (i.e. instead of treating the holidays individually, they're amalgamated for its apparent less work.

2 ( +1 / -0 )

Christmas tree- it has a festive ring to it. And that is what it's all about .

Merry Christmas!

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Merry Christmas!

And a fine yule-tide to you as well. ;-)

2 ( +2 / -0 )

My favorite variation is the toy based on the Charles Schulz Peanuts comic.

"The Pathetic Tree" is a little mangled plastic twig with a couple of anemic branches and no lights or decorations. How it ever got made into a stand along toy is beyond me, unless people will buy anything with the Peanuts logo on it.

Actually, "The Pathetic Tree" is probably closer in spirit to the first Christmas than the suspiciously perfect mall trees.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I guess it all depends on how it is being used. If it is being used by someone who is from the Christan heritage, it is a Christmas tree. If it is something to symbolize the need to shop, think of family/loved ones or just to simply brighten the winter days, then I would say it is a holiday tree. I don't care either way, but I can see how non-Christans may prefer it being called a ''holiday tree'' since a lot of trees seem to be void of the Christan meaning.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Nobody was ever offended by a Christmas tree before political correctness came along. Heck, these things are all over the place in atheist Japan and Buddhist Thailand.

It is only political corretness that wants to change harmless traditions into some bland, meaningless pap.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

but I can see how non-Christans may prefer it being called a ''holiday tree'' since a lot of trees seem to be void of the Christan meaning.

The thing is I don't think non Xtians are offended (or very few are); I certainly am not. I think mostly Christians presume some (not insignificant amount of) people might be offended. I think if any are, it's an insignificant amount such that they are less than the amount of people turned off by "Holiday Tree" thus being a net negative.

It'd be like going to China and being offended at Chinese (lunar) New Year's greetings b/c you're not Chinese. It's ridiculous. I love the "Xin nian kuai lu's" (and I'm not Chinese). Imagine how silly they would sound if they said "Happy Annual Observance" instead. What?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

'Christmas Tree', without a doubt. Anyone who thinks you're automatically a Christian or follow Christianity simply by using a word which once had direct association but has changed over time is simply being silly. Are they going to change the name Christmas to 'Holiday' as well? If not, it's a Christmas tree, bottom line.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The only way to avoid the religious connotations is to simply not have the tree. Changing the name does not cure it for one, and second "holiday tree" is just a really horrible choice. Not all holidays involve a tree. I can imagine half the anger was generated simply by the crumby name!

Some of you may be really testy about all this, but aiming for a secular government is a good thing. The government should have nothing to do with Christmas trees or anything else Christmas. If they do then it weakens our stance against religious governments because we appear as hypocrites.

That said, the government should allow other groups to decorate public spaces with religious items with permission, but only if they are also going to allow other faiths to do the same only giving the majority priority and no other discrimination.

In short, the people should be able to express their religion freely. The government should not be picking sides or promoting one religion over another.

0 ( +0 / -1 )

This seems to be a uniquely American problem Sadly it isn't. It is a Canadian issue as well.

Ditto the UK and the annual switching on of the newly re-christened "holiday lights" (dont get me started!)

I was raised christian and I love Christmas, but to answer someones question earlier if anyone in a store said to me "Happy Hannukah" or "Happy Kwanza" I would not be remotely offended and would reply in kind. May they enjoy and take comfort from their beliefs as much as I do from mine, and if anyone wants to invite me to their Hannukah party I would not only gratefully accept but also arrive at the door with a bottle of wine and a return invite to my Christmas party. I will happily celebrate anything thats going! Theres enough crap going on already in this life. Bring on the joy, I say!

3 ( +3 / -0 )

The Christmas Tree, as many have noted, isn't Christian, and early Christians certainly never decorated a tree, nor put a star on the top. Don't even get me started about Santa Claus and his coal fetish. The custom of using copious amounts of electricity to outline mythical creatures, well..we won't go there either, and going into debt to buy presents seems to be more about greed than gratitude, but sometimes this is done with thoughtfulness and received with gratitude. Christmas songs might have been okay at one time, but now they have become musak or elevator music that most people would choose to avoid if only they could. Cookies...okay, I like cookies, and fruitcake isn't bad if it's homemade. Giving to the needy...I think that's a good thing that shouldn't require a holiday, or a holiday shrub, but whatever, if it gets the job done.

So anyway, secularizing Christmas... I'm not even sure what that means at this point, but Christianity doesn't have much to do with either a holiday tree or a Christmas tree.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Afterward, he said he was surprised by the heated reaction to his word choice. Chafee argues that he is simply honoring Rhode Island’s origins as a sanctuary for religious diversity.

If this is the case, and if he really believes in diversity, then why not celebrate it instead of dumbing it down??

Me, I can't wait to see the Holiday Bamboo at the office entrance this year (kadomatsu)!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Nicky

Ditto the UK and the annual switching on of the newly re-christened "holiday lights" (dont get me started!)

Absolutely - wasn't there a case where and Oxfam shop in UK was asked to remove it's Christmas display as it might offend the local population. Sadly I can't find the article anymore, but a prime example of PC actually being completely un-PC.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Afterward, he said he was surprised by the heated reaction to his word choice. Chafee argues that he is simply honoring Rhode Island’s origins as a sanctuary for religious diversity.

Laugh at the craven cluelessness of the elites and the oikophobes trying to deny or rewrite our history and culture.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@tmarie

I was told YEARS ago to wish customers "Happy Holidays" so I didn't offend anyone. The Muslims that complained in Canada... would they support a christian complaining about Ramadan celebrations in a traditional Muslim country?

In case you have doubts, in a country where the majority are Muslims (not necessarily an Islamic country), you are not allowed to eat (or drink) in the streets in Ramadan (to not offend Muslims). And in most Islamic countries, there are certain limits to what you can dress as a woman (they believe that they are helping you in not offending yourself).

While I'm defending Muslims continuously against discrimination based on religion, terrorism accusations, or that their religion is worse to others. As far as understanding of others goes, they have a serious problem. But it's not a religion issue, rather a level of civility issue. Had Canada and Europe were accepting intelligent immigrants only, this problem would unlikely have been, as I didn't hear much of complaining of Arab/Muslim researchers in the west, who are doing fairly well in their work and in adapting to other cultures.

As far as Christmas tree goes, I say if the Christians came up with it, let them enjoy calling it what they want, can't be much offended. Though in countries like Russia (and in Soviet Union previously), were all families had Christmas trees although atheists, I find it kind of difficult to force them to call it a Christmas tree (especially that they celebrate new year, not Christmas). So it much depends on the Circumstances.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

But I wonder how some non-Jewish staunch Christmas tree defenders would feel if a supermarket clerk heartily wished them a Happy Hannukah? I would wish it back. Nothing wrong with pleasant greetings.

Or if the white posters were wished a Happy Kwanza? What does race have to do with Kwanza. You might also want to look at some parades and who goes - plenty of white people! Again, why not wish it back? No issues there.

But what seals it is if they are non-Muslim, and a guy in a turban boisterously wished them a Good Ramadan. That would inspire glares I think. They'd get a puzzled look because you don't wish anyone a "good ramadan" and I would wonder why a Sikh is wishing anyone something Muslim.

The whole thing needs sorted, and every good Christian ought to know so. And what about those who are not Christian? Trees aren't only a Christian thing these days. I know plenty of Jewish and Muslim families that get them. And we are living in Japan so how could we forget those Shinto and Buddhists?

In case you have doubts, in a country where the majority are Muslims (not necessarily an Islamic country), you are not allowed to eat (or drink) in the streets in Ramadan (to not offend Muslims). And in most Islamic countries, there are certain limits to what you can dress as a woman (they believe that they are helping you in not offending yourself). Wow, very patronizing. As someone who has been to a few Muslim countries - and sometimes during Ramadan - well aware of all of this. When I go to these countries, I try and follow the local traditions/rules. I don't run around half naked and I certainly wouldn't be walking around during Ramadan eating a ham sandwich. I also wouldn't complain about their feasts every night. They are more than welcome to it. Which is the issue. Why are "we" more than welcome to do what we've done for generations? "They're" new to our countries so if anything, they need to be the ones to suck it up, not us. Just like I would if I was in "their" countries.

I have no issues with whomever doing what - as long as it is within the law - based on religion, creed, whatever. It is a shame that some are not so tolerate and "our" traditions are now being stamped on because of "their" intolerance. To be honest, it is rather disgusting. We live in Japan and I think most of us can agree that "we" try and follow the flow here. Why are "our" countries so damn PC and willing to throw away "our" traditions while letting others have theirs?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

They'd get a puzzled look because you don't wish anyone a "good ramadan" and I would wonder why a Sikh is wishing anyone something Muslim.

Okay then, how about "Have a blessed Ramadan!" And turbans are common in Islam. Look it up. I submit that we who grew up in the west are so used to hearing "Merry Christmas!" that we expect everyone else to be as well. But if we heard "Have a blessed Ramadan!" directed at us many of us would feel rather annoyed. I wouldn't, but I know lots who would.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

And turbans are common in Islam. Look it up. Perhaps you should. Wiki with turbans. They aren't all that common. Scarves, skull caps and the like are much more common. I did look it up because I thought it was strange someone would make such a comment.

And again, no one does Ramadan greetings like we do with "Merry Christmas". And again, perhaps YOU would be annoyed by it but I don't think many of us would. I grew up in an area with various religious groups, ethnic groups... To each his own and more than happy to give a greeting for their day, join the party or do my own thing. Shame not everyone else is as accepting.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It is a Christmas Tree. In the USA, Christmas is a Federal holiday. It is perfectly appropriate to display a symbol of that Federal holiday and to acknowledge that symbol by name.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@gyouza - yep, that was the one. Did you hear about the village ordered to cancel their 400 year old tradition of a parade with reindeer because elf n safety thought there was a risk that - for the first time ever - the reindeer might bite someone?!

And it doesnt take much of a search to come up with "traditional candlelight service cancelled due to fire risk".

They can muck about with our bank holidays as much as they please, but leave Christmas alone!

tmarie - I think you and I need to get together and crash some parties!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

They aren't all that common.

Well, at least you figured out that a turban does not make one a Sikh. Muhammad himself wore a turban. There are many styles. And wiki actually has a section in the turban page called Turbans in Islam.

And again, no one does Ramadan greetings like we do with "Merry Christmas".

Fur the purposes of my "what if" question, its not necessary that they do.

And again, perhaps YOU would be annoyed by it

I was very clear in my post that I would not be. Would you like some personal references?

Look, the point is that the government should be endorsing Christmas and by extension Christianity. I don't care if Muslim nations' governments endorse Islam. That is their folly to cherish. My country's state governments are supposed to be secular.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I love Christmas. This is also the time of year I get more home sick than any other part of the year. Though I do love being in Japan, I miss Christmas in my home country. sniff sniff.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

In my home country they call it Jul. Christmas. Jul has the same meaning as Christmas, not technically but spiritually. The Christmas tree tradition started in Germany many centuries ago. To me it means a lot, now I want to pass this fine tradition to my kids in Japan. This is not a holiday tree. It is a Christmas tree. A holiday tree is a tree on any holiday. A Christmas tree is a pine tree you decorate in December. I am not into the stockings. I like to put the presents under the Christmas tree then open them after dinner on Christmas eve. This is what I grew up with. But to each his or her own. Merry Christmas.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

tmarie - I think you and I need to get together and crash some parties! More than up for it! Sadly, too late for Ramadan this year! Have a few Jewish friends here so see what I can do...

Look, the point is that the government should be endorsing Christmas and by extension Christianity... My country's state governments are supposed to be secular. ??? You do know what secular means, right?

I think people should be able to do what they wish as long as it doesn't break any laws. Set up and Xmas tree, have a parade, do your fasting..., do whatever you like but allow others to enjoy their celebrations as well.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Why should anyone feel offended by a greeting which she doesn't understand completely or which she interprets dfferently? It is a reason to smile and return some sort of greeting. If anyone doesn't understand the purpose of such greetings - sharing happiness and joy - then she would not even truly rejoice in their own holidays. I don't have to celebrate a religious holiday, but I should not feel offended by others doing so.

And it is a Christmas tree, because those people who care most about it call it "Christmas tree". Those people who don't call it "Christmas tree" may call it whatever they want, but they should accept that they are considered as clueless. If Dubai likes an 11 million dollar "Christmas tree", it is still fake because there is no culture that celebrates Christmas there. But the atmosphere, the mood of celebration, family and cookies is what changes a "green thing" into a "Christmas tree". Thus, Dubai has a 11 million dollar "green thing". The same reasoning can be applied to Japanese Winter illumination.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@sakurala

I guess it all depends on how it is being used. If it is being used by someone who is from the Christan heritage, it is a Christmas tree. If it is something to symbolize the need to shop, think of family/loved ones or just to simply brighten the winter days, then I would say it is a holiday tree. I don't care either way, but I can see how non-Christans may prefer it being called a ''holiday tree'' since a lot of trees seem to be void of the Christan meaning.

Although this seems perfectly logical, if the Christians hadn't celebrated Christmas using the tree as a part of that celebration then by default, there wouldn't be a tree to call either Christmas or Holiday. So, it IS a Christmas tree. The discussions about it being used for commercial purposes are a different debate I believe?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It's so awful to deal with this notion that we have to protect everyone from religion, honest language, and honest opinions. There's nothing wrong with naming things what they are. This over sensitivity is making us a bunch of scaredy cats when it comes to having an honest discussion about issues. If we continue to police our language it will only hinder any real chance for understanding. What holiday is it anyway? Ahem ... Christmas.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This kind of thing is so silly. Christmas is and has always been a primarily Winter celebration that Christians just later associated with Jesus to make Christianity's spread more acceptable to the early European pagans. Yes, I'm sure that back in Jerusalem, Mary, Joseph, and Jesus were decorating evergreen trees and making snow angels and hanging up wreaths. Let's just accept the fact that despite the name, most of these Christmas traditions really have nothing to do with Jesus or Christian religion specifically.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

. Let's just accept the fact that despite the name, most of these Christmas traditions really have nothing to do with Jesus or Christian religion specifically.

And again, it doesn't really matter what the roots are - it has become a tradition and part of the culture. Plenty of non-Christians put a tree up. The problem is that "we've" become too PC and get walked over.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Cleo - Remind me, what does a pagan decorated evergreen have to do with the baby Jesus?

You took the words out of my mouth !

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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