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Trans debate rages around the world, pitting LGBT+ community against itself

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By Hugo Greenhalgh

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LGBTIQ (I don't know all the letters sorry) and Feminism are diametrically opposed.

LGBT+ claims that gender is an identity that is innate or biological and can't be changed.

Feminism claims that gender is a mere social construct, women act like women because the "male patriarchal system" raises them that way. Therefore LGBT are only LGBT because of their social upbringing and not because of their innate identity.

Which one is correct?

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

Navratilova and Davies are right about transwomen having an advantage. What is the point of women's sport?

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Burning BushToday 07:35 am JST

LGBTIQ (I don't know all the letters sorry) and Feminism are diametrically opposed.

LGBT+ claims that gender is an identity that is innate or biological and can't be changed.

Feminism claims that gender is a mere social construct, women act like women because the "male patriarchal system" raises them that way. Therefore LGBT are only LGBT because of their social upbringing and not because of their innate identity.

Which one is correct?

Transpeople do not claim that gender identity is biological and cannot be changed. Sex is biological and refers to the x or y chromosomes as well as secondary sex characteristics, such as ovaries and testes. Gender is not biological. Gender is how you express yourself, your identity, or your self-image. Feminine or masculine is not a binary, but a continuum with many points in between, including gender neutral.

FYI, a lot of transpeople are intersex and/or born with "other" non-binary sex characteristics, yet were labeled "male" or "female" at birth. When their gender identity begins to express itself, it is often realized the parents "chose" the wrong gender at birth, so the person had to "transition." Which really shouldn't be called a transition, since they were that gender all along. Other transpeople have gender dysphoria, the causes of which are partly biological. It's unknown exactly why, since research in this area is only now getting serious attention.

This means that the idea of gender as a social construct and transgenderism is not actually at odds, since both transpeople and feminists do not see gender as binary.

There is a saying among feminists: if your feminism isn't intersectional, then it's not feminism. There is a small but loud contingent of TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) who deny transwomen are women, and decry allowing transwomen a part in feminism, just as they refuse to acknowledge that men can be feminists.

This is NOT a mainstream view. This is a lunatic fringe that the vast majority of feminists condemn. This article is poorly written as that point is not made at all clear. I am not surprised that people who are unfamiliar with TERFs and with GLBTQIA+ issues (you don't even "know all the letters", yet have strong opinions?) would read this and come to erroneous conclusions.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

I agree that sport should be mixed and based on weight, skill, etc. rather than being "male" and "female" exclusionary. Recently there was a bike race in Germany, and they had to stop the women's race because the lead women caught up with the men's team. Why women can't join the men's team and compete with them I do not understand. The only reason I can see is sexism. Maybe the guy's egos can't take the idea of being beaten by women. LOL

0 ( +6 / -6 )

girl_in_tokyo

Men and women cant compete against each other in sport because women would get trounced at every professional level not to mention the threat of injury as well. No one would be laughing if a woman were paralyzed or killed while playing rugby, american football, etc.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

First world problems..

2 ( +4 / -2 )

The trans issues in sport are much more complex than you seem to be willing to admit. There are some sports in which men and women could compete equally together - archery, shooting, equestrian come to mind - but as the above poster says, in most sports it would be unfair to both men and women for them to compete on the same field in the same game. Particularly to the women. And that unfairness is compounded when you start trying to factor in trans women and their physical differences to natural-born women.

As far as cycling goes, below is a link to world cycling records. There are some categories where women do as well or better than men, but the opposite is true in most cases. In the case of the road race mentioned, it's certainly not difficult to believe that the lead women riders should catch up to the relatively slow-moving group of men at the back of the men's race (the peloton). Question is, who would win if they'd all set off together?

You can argue exclusionary ideology, or you can look at the evidence of your own eyes and the record books. If the only reason you can see is sexism, then you're not looking hard enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cycling_records

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The trans issues in sport are much more complex than you seem to be willing to admit

How do you know that, when I only made one post? :)

Of course it's more complicated that "men and women should play all sports together." That's why I said it should be based on weight, skill, etc. - the "etc" means other factors such as the ones you mentioned, like strength and the fact that men in general tend to be bigger and stronger than women as well as have more stamina for certain things.

I'm not an extremist; I fully acknowledge biological differences. I also fully acknowledge that I don't know much about sports, so my mind is open to opinions from people who know more about that than I do. :)

I just reject the idea that men and women can never, ever compete against each other in any sport, when it is clear that they can compete against each other in some sports. Ditto for transpeople - why can't they compete as long as they are in the same weight/height/strength category? As long as it is fair, where is the problem?

0 ( +4 / -4 )

If being trans-whatever is legitimized politically, many laws protecting women will be exploited by men claiming to be trans. This will happen with scholarships for women, small business loans for women, and even job placement for women. Loop holes are exploited by anyone. Why should all of the laws and practices that have been put in place to help women succeed in the world essentially be opened to exploitation by anyone claiming to be trans? From the perspective of enacting policy, not from based on how you feel things should "just" be, why would trans-laws be enacted?

A trans-woman walked into a hospital and demanded a pap-smear. The nurse refused, and was punished.

A trans-woman changed their car insurance from "man" to "woman" and had their insurance reduced.

Trans-women athletes are now winning female-scholarships, thereby denying the scholarships to biological women.

If trans-laws are enacted, that's fine. It will (1) increase the statistics for female sports, which can then be exploited by post-modernists in their "everybody is equal" claims, and (2) give more economic activity to men who will wear panties to work and reap the economic benefits allocated to women.

The percentage of actual trans-people to the percentage of males that will exploit trans laws for their benefit will only weigh heavily on the latter category.

Good luck with your non-sense laws!

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

How do you know that, when I only made one post? :)

Judging by your one post. How else would you expect me to do it?:)

I just reject the idea that men and women can never, ever compete against each other in any sport, when it is clear that they can compete against each other in some sports.

I agree. As I hope I made clear in my one post.

You would also be aware, I assume, that there have been grumblings among female athletes having to compete against runner Caster Semenya. When it comes to winning, or more precisely not winning, it's not just the men who have a problem with being beaten - in Caster Semenya's case by someone many female athletes believe is competing with an unfair genetic advantage (hyperandrogenism). When it comes to sport - a practical testing ground of how evolving ideas on gender identity are going to play out - these issues are going to have to be sorted.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/20/sports/caster-semenya-800-meters.html

1 ( +3 / -2 )

madmanmuntToday 12:06 pm JST

If being trans-whatever is legitimized politically, many laws protecting women will be exploited by men claiming to be trans.

Being transgender IS legitimate, whether you agree with it or not. Scientific fact doesn't change depending on a popular vote. Check "science" in the dictionary if you need help understanding that.

This will happen with scholarships for women, small business loans for women, and even job placement for women.

Transwomen are women so all of these things are for them, too.

by anyone claiming to be trans?

You do know that people don't pretend to be trans, right? It is defined and accepted by medical associations around the world.

And surely common sense would tell you that no one would pretend to be trans, live their life as trans, and put themselves in danger of discrimination, hatred, prejudice, harassment, and being murdered, just so they could what, get a scholarship? Do you seriously believe that?!?

A trans-woman walked into a hospital and demanded a pap-smear. The nurse refused, and was punished.

I think you are mistaken, because transwomen don't get pap smears - transmen do. And yes, if a medical professional refused to give necessary medical care to someone based on their gender identity, that medical professional should be fired. Medical professionals can't pick and chose who to give necessary medical care to. That is a blatant violation of the Hippocratic Oath and is unethical, unprofessional, as well as illegal.

A trans-woman changed their car insurance from "man" to "woman" and had their insurance reduced. Trans-women athletes are now winning female-scholarships, thereby denying the scholarships to biological women.

Again, transwomen are women; thus these things are for them, too. As a sexual minority, they deserve as much aid as ciswomen do.

If trans-laws are enacted, that's fine. It will (1) increase the statistics for female sports, which can then be exploited by post-modernists in their "everybody is equal" claims, and (2) give more economic activity to men who will wear panties to work and reap the economic benefits allocated to women.

What are "trans laws," exactly? Do you mean laws that protect transpeople from discrimination?

1) Everybody IS equal under the law. If you believe that some people do not deserve equality, then you are, by definition, a bigot.

I think you are just obsessed a littttttle too much with men wearing panties. But hey, YKISMYKBYKIOK. :)
-2 ( +4 / -6 )

"The only way to fight lesbian erasure within 'LGBT+' groups is to... create an autonomous and strong lesbian community and build alliances with all feminists willing to fight against male domination," a spokeswoman said in an email.

AND

"But we are united in our desire to create a world where we can be free to be ourselves."

These are very different goals. Radical lesbian feminists demonize men and want to simply take power for themselves as in Animal Farm - they will be the new pigs in charge. This goal is quite different from being "free to be ourselves". So in the end the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

what a circus

1 ( +5 / -4 )

@Pardoxbox, yes your totally right, " what a circus" and now all of this handbag trowing petty squabbling over equality, combined with the Brexit fiasco, stop the world I want to get off please!

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Feminists claim that gender differences were created by men to dominate women. They claim that the only real differences are the sex organs.

If that's true, then LGBT people shouldn't have any gender to identify with. There is no such thing as a feminine gender according to feminists.

Either the feminists are wrong and men and women truly are different (men being assertive and women being submissive) or the LGBT are wrong and it's all in their head.

Or maybe their both wrong. And there are only two different, distinct yet equal genders.

Man and woman.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Totally agree with everything you've posted here.Thank you for saying it. girl_in_tokyo.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Gender is a social contruct. No one is born with male and female brains, no one is is born with a biological urge to wear pink and make up.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Girl_in_Tokyo: why should a trans-woman be denied of receiving a pap-smear? the trans-woman requested a pap-smear, but was refused. Why are you being so transphobic?

Why can only trans-men receive papsmears? why are you being so transphobic?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Labels, labels, labels. Pick and choose your side(s), and then let all the groups starting fighting each other. It's no different with the Women's March. Women sharing that label quickly divided amongst black vs jewish. Just do YOU. Stop worrying about everyone else in the world.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Burning BushMar. 16 06:58 pm JST Feminists claim that gender differences were created by men to dominate women. They claim that the only real differences are the sex organs.

Feminists acknowledge gender differences. They simply reject predetermined, strictly enforced gender roles.

If that's true, then LGBT people shouldn't have any gender to identify with. There is no such thing as a feminine gender according to feminists.

It's not true, so there is no conflict here.

Either the feminists are wrong and men and women truly are different (men being assertive and women being submissive) or the LGBT are wrong and it's all in their head.

Again, feminists don't deny biological differences. They simply reject ideas like "all men are assertive" and "all women are submissive". These are clearly untrue, as one can see examples of less assertive men and more assertive women in every society, around the world. It is a spectrum, not a dichotomy.

Or maybe their both wrong. And there are only two different, distinct yet equal genders. Man and woman.

Sex is biological. Gender, however, is psychological and social. Psychologists fully recognize transgenderism and do not treat it as a disorder. It's simply another way of living one's life. Gender is recognized as a spectrum, not a binary. This is fully compatible with mainstream feminist views. I can point you to some literature if you are interested.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Of course it's more complicated that "men and women should play all sports together." That's why I said it should be based on weight, skill, etc. - the "etc" means other factors such as the ones you mentioned, like strength and the fact that men in general tend to be bigger and stronger than women as well as have more stamina for certain things.

So which sports are you talking about? Please name them. Your example of cycling is not a good one. Check out the record times for various cycling events for men and women.

Which sports?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

So which sports are you talking about? Please name them. Your example of cycling is not a good one. Check out the record times for various cycling events for men and women.

Which sports?

I don't know, because as I said, I'm not a sportsman. I think the people who are best able to decide which sports can fairly include transpeople are the professionals who play them.

My only concern is that these decisions are based on logic and not on personal bias and discriminatory beliefs. In other words, that they don't say "no" to transpeople in sports just because they think transpeople are icky or weird. Would you not agree that is fair and correct?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@girl_in_tokyo "I don't know, because as I said, I'm not a sportsman"

But are you a sportsperson, or a sportswoman? or are you a sports-xirperson?

Saying no based on "icky" and "weird" is not the topic -- the policy of transwomen in female sports is based on biological data. bone density, upper-body strength, etc. You can easily research this. I will not provide you with homework.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

madmanmuntToday 12:49 pm JST

@girl_in_tokyo "I don't know, because as I said, I'm not a sportsman"But are you a sportsperson, or a sportswoman? or are you a sports-xirperson?

I believe sportsman, sportswoman, or sportsperson are all acceptable terms.

Saying no based on "icky" and "weird" is not the topic -- the policy of transwomen in female sports is based on biological data. bone density, upper-body strength, etc. You can easily research this. I will not provide you with homework.

The topic indeed IS the policy of transpeople in sports, and yes, we agree - it should be based on data and considered by people who are more knowledgeable than you or I - so it seems we agree. :)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The topic indeed IS the policy of transpeople in sports, and yes, we agree - it should be based on data and considered by people who are more knowledgeable than you or I - so it seems we agree. :)

I totally agree with this but one problem is political pressure. As you pointed out, there are some who just dislike trans people, but there are also those who will immediately slur those who just talk sense like in the case of Navratilova. I remember listening to a podcast about this subject hosted by a former MMA fighter and commentator who was vilified by some for being against men who transition to women in combat sports on the grounds that it is extremely dangerous.

As you are aware, and I’m not putting you in this camp, there are some who can be as irrational as the transphobes on this subject when discussing this.

As you said, logic is the way forward.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Jimizo, I agree with you. On one end of the scale is hate and discrimination, and on the other is the view that if you raise concerns of any kind, no matter how kindly or logically stated, you are transphobic. There are extremist views in every movement, but that should not keep us from supporting the movement's main goal, which is equality.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

i admit to a chuckle.

"Unfortunately some parts of the LGBT+ community are not coming together," she told the Thomson Reuters Foundation.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

There are extremist views in every movement, but that should not keep us from supporting the movement's main goal, which is equality.

I can agree with that. So we first have to define what equality is. That’s a major problem right now because without a clear definition of what that means, a lot of guys are freaking out in fear of suddenly being punished for the sins of their forefathers. No one has really explained the end goal. What does equality look like?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I agree that sport should be mixed and based on weight, skill, etc.

Am I correct in thinking that you would do away with separate men’s and women’s events? Given biological differences (which trans women still enjoy) wouldn’t that lead to many fine athletic natal women simply giving up sport? After all, all people like to win at least sometimes.

"We're a community that is 50 years old and we are maturing. We should be big enough to do this."

A community or activist-lead political front? 50 years as the latter? Sure, but how many members does this community have? Are all lesbians required to toe the front’s line?Do all lesbians feel themselves part of this community? It seems not. That doesn’t mean they hate the other constituents just that they need not make common cause. The fact that gays and lesbians are more accepted now than 50 years ago will undoubtedly undermine this talk of “community”.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"We should start to create spaces in which – safely – the LGBT+ community can have arguments and differences" GOOD LUCK WITH THAT. Meanwhile, in the real world, trans activists PROUDLY use violence and threats of violence to shut people up when they disagree with trans ideology. They spend years harassing women for the supposed crime of wanting their own spaces, free of men. They demand that lesbians "un-learn" their "prejudices" against male genitalia because "trans women ARE women." It is heteronormative, homophobic nonsense, and we are supposed to praise it.

Mentioning the FACTS of biology is "hate speech" now. Naming men who abuse and and rape and murder women and girls is "deadnaming" and hate speech because those men have started wearing dresses in prison. Don't believe me? Try using the name "Ian Huntley" on Twitter, see how fast the activists get your account suspended. And they will demand the raping murderer be put in a women's prison, insisting that absolutely nothing can go wrong with it.

So what if you don't want your autistic 15 year-old child chemically and surgically castrated by doctors who won't even take notice of their comorbid issues? The trans rights activists will make sure the state takes your child away from you and gives them to a "glitter family" that supports this transition. They go on YouTube and encourage kids to run away from home rather than live with parents who might actually have sound judgment. They praise "Christian" parents who would rather believe the pseudoscientific notion of a "boy brain in a girl's body" than deal with the reality of having a GAY or LESBIAN child.

The best part? If you are a TRANS PERSON who takes issue with this derangement from your fellow trans people, they will ostracize you, de-platform you, and do their best to shut you up at every turn.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The best part? If you are a TRANS PERSON who takes issue with this derangement from your fellow trans people, they will ostracize you, de-platform you, and do their best to shut you up at every turn.

I'd bet a dollar to a donut this is an opinion you've gotten without having ever actually talked to any trans people to find out just how life is for them.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

They spend years harassing women for the supposed crime of wanting their own spaces, free of men.

Two things. One, transwomen are women, not men, and as such women should welcome transwomen into our spaces. Two, if I saw you supporting women-only spaces such as women-only train cars as well as expressing concern about rape culture and sexism, then I might believe you actually care about women instead of only caring about trashing transwomen.

Naming men who abuse and and rape and murder women and girls is "deadnaming"

That's not what deadnaming is. Deadnaming is when someone insists on calling someone by the name they left behind when they transitioned. When someone changes their name, you should call them by that new name. Do you insist on calling women by their maiden name after they have married and changed their name to their husband's name? I doubt it - so why would anyone do that to a transperson?

Also, transwomen do not "rape and murder women". Cisgender men, however, rape and murder transwomen at higher rates than any other demongraphic.

pseudoscientific notion of a "boy brain in a girl's body"

It isn't pseudoscience. It's a medical and psychological condition that is accepted by all major psychiatric associations, such as the APA. Are you trying to say that you know better than they do? What's your doctorate degree in?

I could go though your entire post like this, but it's hardly worth my time. I think this is sufficient to demonstrate just how much you have got wrong.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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