lifestyle

Innocence lost: the dark side of Akihabara

230 Comments
By Patrick W Galbraith

The crowd in the Ishimaru Soft event space in Akihabara sits anxiously awaiting the arrival of an idol, whose most recent DVD they purchased for the right to meet her. Led on by the MC, the 50 or so middle-aged men call out in unison: “Mana-chan!” After two more calls, she appears—a girl of 13, looking dazed and sheepish. As the cameras zoom in, she strips down to her bikini, which drapes on her under-developed form.

Mana is a “low teen” pursuing a career as a model. As abhorrent as it may sound, children as young as 2 who are billed as “junior idols” release photo books and DVDs. Insofar as the models do not expose their breasts or genitals, this is not against the law. But the way scantily clad kids blow on flutes and lick ice cream cones in front of the camera has raised eyebrows at home and abroad.

The idol industry in Japan in general is estimated at 60 billion yen annually, and junior idols shift some 3 million photo books and DVDs per year. There are countless websites (such as Pure Little Sister Club) and a syndicated magazine (Moecco) catering to fans.

This trend began in the ’90s, when columnist Akio Nakamori coined the term "chidol," or child idol, to describe the sudden increase of young models. The neologism fell out of favor and was replaced by “junior idol,” which shifts the emphasis from childhood and links the phenomenon with legitimate up-and-coming idols.

In Akihabara, long known for its stock of lolicon (Lolita Complex) and “little sister” movies and magazines, the number of shops advertising idol DVDs marked U-15 (under-15) has quietly increased.

“This is a gray area in Japan, but the residents of Akihabara and I find it reprehensible,” says Takaya Kobayashi, 54, a Chiyoda Ward councilman.

But at places such as Oimoya, located right on Akihabara’s main street of Chuo Dori, fans crowd around merchandise displays featuring underage girls.

“Looking at junior idols soothes me,” explains Shigure Akagi, 45, an artist who says he draws inspiration from these products. “I do not have children of my own, so seeing them makes me happy.”

He isn’t the only one. Mr, the most eccentric member of Takashi Murakami’s stable of pop artists, admits he suffers from lolicon, and recruited junior idols to star in his 2008 film, "Nobody Dies."

Ostensibly, the parents who sign their daughters to be junior idols are hoping they achieve mainstream fame like Mr’s girls. And it isn’t impossible. Saaya Irie, for example, was cast in "Hell Girl" and other TV programs after her stint as a child model.

Legally, this is a dark shade of gray. A 1999 Japanese law bans children in depictions of sex, genital touching and “arousing” nudity, but junior idols manage to skirt these issues. In 2002, Japan signed the U.N.’s Optional Protocol on the Sale of Children, Child Prostitution and Child Pornography, which bans “any representation, by whatever means, of real or simulated explicit sexual activities or any representation of the sexual parts of a child for primarily sexual purposes.” Defenders say images of junior idols are not for “primarily” sexual purposes. Indeed, scenes in these DVDs can be as harmless as family travel videos. Just not always.

This may be gray, but people overseas are seeing red. In April 2008, UNICEF distributed a petition with 21,000 signatures asking Japan to curb junior idols and lolicon anime. In November, at an international meeting in Brazil, Japan was condemned as “The Nation of Child Porn.” Japan and Russia, the organizers say, are the only G8 nations that have not taken action against child exploitation.

Japanese authorities fire back that it is hard to define what is and isn’t art, and that policing the small, independent publishers and video companies is tough. Meanwhile, the numbers show that Japan is, in reality, a safe place for kids: there were 754 reported cases of sexual abuse in 2000, compared to 89,500 in the United States. This could, however, be due to underreporting, or the fact that the official age of consent can be 13 in some places.

Junior idols sell raw innocence—a major commodity today.

This story originally appeared in Metropolis magazine (www.metropolis.co.jp).

© Japan Today

©2019 GPlusMedia Inc.


230 Comments
Login to comment

JT - that little thumbnail picture might be enough to get someone arrested outside Japan. You might want to blur that or change it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Disgusting.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Wake up Japan! When the WHOLE FRIGGIN WORLD (except the pervs in Russia) say its PORN, guess what? Its PORN!!! What makes it even more disgusting is the perverts openly gather in public places and are proud of themselves!

Enjoy sitting in the backseat of the civilized world bus! With Japan's draconian logic I'm suprised it even has seat at the UN.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I don't particularly like to hop onto moral soapboxes, but in this case, there's really no excuse for this. None whatsoever. These are children being marketed as sex objects, pure and simple. Changes simply have to made in Japanese law to reflect that these types of materials and activities are NOT acceptable, much less good for the children that are being exploited. But in order for that change to come, there has to be an impetus from society, and so far, that's sorely lacking.

“Looking at junior idols soothes me,” explains Shigure Akagi, 45, an artist who says he draws inspiration from these products. “I do not have children of my own, so seeing them makes me happy.”

So, if Mr. Akagi DID have children of his own, he'd like to see them licking ice cream and blowing on flutes in a sexually provocative manner? I'm glad he doesn't have children and hope the world never experiences the misfortune of him procreating.

This could, however, be due to underreporting, or the fact that the official age of consent can be 13 in some places.

Well, d'uh. In a nation that practically revels in the lolicon industry, from Morning Musume-offshoots, Mini-Moni to those kids singing the creepy "Tarako" song, it's not much of a stretch to think that perhaps, yeah, something might be under-reported.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

the fact that the official age of consent can be 13 in some places.

Do some people still believe this?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

sicko stuff.

still, no country is actually innocent in this. it is legal for teens to have sex most G-8 countries I know of, while an arbitrary line of an 18 yr old boy having sex with a 17 yr old girl is considered statutory rape. many developing countries permit even children to get married to fully grown adults. child beauty pageants in the U.S. are equally disgusting in there attempt to push adult values on children. the jean benet ramsey case brought all this to light.

there's lots wrong with this junior idol stuff and I am 100% against it. however, lets drop all the holier than thou stuff already. laws are only a reflection of a society's values. so while Japan acknowledges there's a grey area and are struggling to draw the line, other G-8 countries let teens do all the dirty stuff, just not with certain people. if they were all really serious, they would enact laws prohibiting teen sex altogether, and enforce it (don't ask me how).

anything else is just lip service.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Japan is sick with the sexualization of children. Just ride any rush hour train and count the number of older guys reading lolita related manga, photo magazines etc... And a trip to Akiba on the weekend will turn your stomach when you see a crowd of 30-50 year old guys crowding around some 15 year old girl singing along with her clearly juvenile songs.

Maybe these guys are screwed up because their overworked parents ignored them and their insane levels of study at school robbed them of being children. But then again, why hasn't anyone pointed out to these guys just how sick it is that they are so infatuated with girls young enough to be their grade school children?

More and more I think this society is one with severe mental problems that are being swept under a carpet of silence. But the rug is full Japan and it is starting to spill out. You have college boys gang raping girls, people groping on trains, people snapping and trying to kill random people, the whole sexualization of children, and don't even get me started about the whole hostess thing.

Get help Japan before it is too late.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

like those rape games Jpn needs to publically humiliated in the worlds eyes again & again & again till they they are forced to do whats right.

What people are using these children for is criminal point blank.

Jpn just cant change even the most obvious wrongs without massive dose of gaiatsu, pathetic

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Am I the only one who absolutely doesn't give a rat's rear end about this? Girl wants to do it? that's her choice! It's a free country! nobody forced her to show her bikini clad arse. And Akihabara residents should chill out. It was an individual performance area long before they moved it. so they can do everyone a favor and move the hell out!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

japan's age-based patriarchal hierarchy makes this kind of thing practically inevitable: put no-one but old men in positions of power, thoroughly disempower women and the young, and don't be surprised if the former constantly exploit the latter. therefore in the long term the best way to solve this, and other related problems, is to empower women and the young

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nisegaijin. You are kidding right? Since when to 13 year old children have the experience and wisdom to always make the right choices? If we apply your logic then the 13 year olds should be fine to run off and join the military, drink or smoke if they want, have as much sex as they want to and live with the consequences of their actions like adults.

This kind of idiotic apologistic thinking makes zero sense and shows very little understanding of social or moral responsiblity for the protection and welfare of children. Equally it lacks any grasp of the associated social ills that result from this. Including the tasset approval of child sexualization, the resulting people who sell their kids for sex and the sick men and women who support this.

You need a lesson in social responsibility if not moral understanding of what is right and wrong!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

this sh*t is just wrong. 1st time i came to japan and saw these types of dvds on sale, i couldnt believe it. i still don t believe it and hope they fix this gray-area crap soon!!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

the parents who sign their daughters to be junior idols My foot. Educate the girls. If you did not know, let me yell you. There ae just a few extremely smart Japanese ladies in the world. They are damn smart. Much much smarter than Jmen. So it is Jmen who fear that if the girls get smart, it is not good for them. So they do everything possible to keep the ladies in the rut. We all enjoy sex with dignity.So wipe your eyes, and use your head a little.

Maybe, it is too late for Jland now. It is ruined and degenerated.Sounds very arrogant but this is the image created by its own people.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

reminds me of when i had a visitor over from the states and we took a trip to akihabara. he spotted a naughty shop and wanted to take a peek. i told him it wasn't a good idea, but he insisted we go in and take a look... urgh. my skin was crawling for the miniscule amount of time it took him to realise what i'd been talking about. needless to say he had been oblivious to what might be within

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Nobody from the west, particularly the US, can criticise Japan! How much of the internet porn is generated in the west? Most of it.

The age issue is a furphy. Most cultures of the world have a surprisingly low coming-of-age. Only in the rich west, does the mock outrage, and lectures on sexual morality confuse the issue.

The statistics in Japan on sex-related crime speak volumes.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This will not stop as long as it makes a lot of revenue which is always granted by Japanese government no matter how awkward the topic is. Only if the rest of the world starts to put sanctions on Japan for this 'behavior' the leaders will probably give in and ban some more questionable 'sexual themes' like some other countries already doing, e.g. Australia.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I always find it amazing to read these comments...I assume that most of them are from non-Japanese. I am too. But in my opinion it is not up to me to impose my moral standards on their culture since I am not Japanese and do not fully understand their culture...and proboly never will. This is not pron! These pictures are suggestive in nature but these girls are not having sex. They are just posing in bikinis. Somtimes provactively but I an go to the beach and see the same girls. Honetly, what is the big deal? They are not being raped or molested. They are just posing in bikinis or swimsuits from how I read the article. If you see a girl liking an ice cream cone and are turned on sexually...well maybe that is your problem? Live and let live!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Just reading this story makes me feel creepy. Japan please stop coming up with new creepy, we have too much already.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Meanwhile, the numbers show that Japan is, in reality, a safe place for kids: there were 754 reported cases of sexual abuse in 2000, compared to 89,500 in the United States. This could, however, be due to underreporting, or the fact that the official age of consent can be 13 in some places.

This is the paragraph that made me laugh. Only a fool would invest in the accuracy of a survey on this type content.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@beavis; This is the line that made me laugh;

The statistics in Japan on sex-related crime speak volumes.

Tx Cobbler

0 ( +0 / -0 )

They mean the volumes of DVDs?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Probably has volumes on his bookshelf.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

See Japan is finally talking about doing something about child pornography and exploitation. Why don't the boys in blue get in the spirit of things and park their surveillance trucks out the front of these venues. It would seem to make good sense. Identify these men and the next time there is a case of child abuse (or worse), all the cops will have to do is to fit up one of these clowns.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"See Japan is finally talking about doing something about child pornography and exploitation." This is not child pornography! Viewing it as such takes away from the seriousness and problem of real child porn.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

ilikejapan69

Precisely!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

tkoind2 at 10:20 AM JST - 8th July nisegaijin. You are kidding right? Since when to 13 year old children have the experience and wisdom to always make the right choices? If we apply your logic then the 13 year olds should be fine to run off and join the military, drink or smoke if they want, have as much sex as they want to and live with the consequences of their actions like adults. This kind of idiotic apologistic thinking makes zero sense and shows very little understanding of social or moral responsiblity for the protection and welfare of children. Equally it lacks any grasp of the associated social ills that result from this. Including the tasset approval of child sexualization, the resulting people who sell their kids for sex and the sick men and women who support this. You need a lesson in social responsibility if not moral understanding of what is right and wrong!

You need a lesson in minding your own business. and another lesson of realizing that your are not some kind of know-it-all.

Who are you to tell these 13 year olds what to do? Why would you think government would know better? If you don't like it, steer away. I certainly do.

People mature at different age. How do you know that this 13 year old couldn't make an educated decision?

Even if not her, it should be up to her parent or legal guardian to decide. Not the government, and surely not a bunch of hypocrites on the internet news site.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Which country started that "tiny t-shirt" trend for pre-teens, with words like "sexy" and "porn-star" on them?

The sexualization of young girls is for from being a uniquely Japanese thing.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This is not child pornography! Viewing it as such takes away from the seriousness and problem of real child porn.

I didn't imply that it was. All I said is that rather than doing the hard yards in trying to combat child pornography in this country, all the cops have to do is conduct surveillance of such events so they can develop a ready-made list of suspects who they can fit up for any crimes.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

People mature at different age. How do you know that this 13 year old couldn't make an educated decision?

Oh yes, many 13 year old girls or even younger ones know exactly how to make money by enticing an old Jman. She knows what to wear so that she can expose her innocent body so that the man will drool and buy her anything or give her money. She also knows very well how to pretend to be innocent. So sadly, it is the women who are ruling the scene in Jland.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Sex crime is massively under reported in Japan. I know personally of three women who have been raped by western standards but think it was just bad luck and have done nothing about it.

This type of thing is just wrong and exploits people for money whilst putting children in a very vulnerable position.

It is very easy to tell when a picture has been produced for art or to arouse some dirty old man. As for age of consent most laws have changed so the difference in age is also taken into account. A 13 year old girl and a 13 year old boy is o.k. but a 13 year old girl and a 30 year old man is just abuse.

http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

0 ( +0 / -0 )

'People mature at different age. How do you know that this 13 year old couldn't make an educated decision?'

At 13 no one could make a decision about if they are being exploited. To think that a 13 year is mature enough is crazy. I have been in Japan for just one year and met some 30 year old women who have yet to mature mentally.

It is of course not just a problem in Japan but around the world. However as the article says Japan is lagging behind others in doing something positive about it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@ilikejapan69 THE BIG DEAL is that you shouldn't be buying a magazine to see a 13 year old in a bikini. The only reason these magazines are made are for sexual purposes. When someone says "I just buy it because it makes me happy" is absolute BS. How many women do you think buy these magazines because it makes them happy? 13 year old girls shouldn't be suggesting ANYTHING sexual about themselves ESPECIALLY to the group of middle aged men these magazines are targeted at. Licking an ice cream is obviously not turning them on because of the ice cream cone but of the sexually suggestive action the child is making with the ice cream cone. Disgusting.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nisegaijin: I'll tell you who I am. I am a citizen of a world that has passed regulations to protect children from just this kind of exploitation and danger. Japan has also signed these agreements but is in clear violation of them.

There is something really wrong with you if you think the sexualization of a minor child is something that is ok. Or if having greedy parents exploit their children in pornography is ok. It isn't and no manner of denial on your part changes the fact that most civilized societies share the belief that it is our responsibility to protect children with laws that prevent exactly this kind of crime.

13 is far too young to be exploited in this manner and the parents should be held accountable for such a violation of the protection of children.

But more so, men like you who are ok with this need to be told firmly by society that this is not ok and that consumption of this kind of kiddie porn material is sick and beyond that, criminal.

As a concerned citizen I am minding my own business in advocating proper protections of the well being of children in our society. If you want to stick your head in the sand an ignore a very real ethical problem, then knock yourself out. But realize that such self inflicted ignorance of very real problems is tantemount to providing support to such activities. We have a responsibility to do what is right for the protection and welfare of children.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I always wondered why Mr. Aso had that lopsided grin on his face all the time. I agree with some of the other posters here, this type of "grey" porn has to stop. I think it is the root of all of the reported/unreported child abduction/sexual abuse cases in Japan. I love the argument some supporters use. "If there were no magazines like this, more men would try it for real." I got news for you, plenty ARE trying it for real. Probably getting great ideas from the manga and mags available. The live event detailed in the article is unbelievable, and let's not get into the lolicon games or dvds available here.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

tkoind2, why don't you be a good sport and show me the exact global regulation that shows that a bikini clad 13 year old is illegal...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"children as young as 2 who are billed as "junior idols"

Jesus Christ.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I spend a lot of time explaining to various people visiting here or newly living here the cultural differences between Western cultures and Japan's. But this is just unacceptable! Tokyo's trying to clean up its image for the Olympics bid? I think most would agree that they should start right here (instead of Kabukicho)!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Tkoind and Griff,

Good posts, BTW.

Nisegaijin,

"Who are you to tell these 13 year olds what to do?"

Obviously, you missed this tiny point somewhere along the way, but we're the adults. We're supposed to tell 13-year-olds what to do. It's how they stay safe and we progress as a society. If the greatest single aspiration girls in the world were allowed to fulfill was to be the sexual object of emotionally stunted middle-aged men, then the world would likely never have had the benefit of things like the bullet proof vest, the electric hot water heater, or the chocolate chip cookie.

Laws to protect children don’t just arise from a vacuum. You seem to think that morality and doing the right thing only come about as a result of being codified in civil law, when in fact it happens exactly opposite; People and societies make civil law based on their sense of right on wrong, not the other way around. To claim otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Simple way to deal with this issue. Jail the parents who allow a 13 year old girl to parade in a bikini for money. Also jail the organisers of an event where a 13 year old girl parades in a bikini for money. And the age of consent rule should be quite simple as well. Once a girl can leave high school (16/17 ?) then they can do what they like. Not sure why the age of consent has such confusion in Japan ?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

tkoind2: Thanks for standing up for the children. How right you are sarge. nisegaijin : Hope you have a daughter and learn to understand. If you do have one I hope you understand quickly for her sake. I think it is called respect for the others dignity. Oh yah nisegaijin, Tkoind2 does know it all;)He always gives one something to think about.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

everyone knows that some j-men spend their time daydreaming about school girls, so this is just a way of partially realizing their sick dreams. no wonder the industry is booming.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Seems like the number of paedophiles is growing. Those agencies think that by not making these young girls strip, they are creating a "gray" area which finds its way round the law. However, it's obvious that the "motive" behind these photobooks and DVDs are meant for sexual arousal or fantasies. The young girls may simply think it's normal to engage in such activities as it can probably earn them a good LV or Gucci bag as compared to ordinary part time jobs. The consequence is; when materialism surpasses morality, they'll act in AVs when they reach legal age. Hence, what they are doing right now is like pre-AVs preps. No wonder the AV industry is booming more than ever.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nisegaijin - children are called dependants for good reason. the reason being that they are not considered to have enough of their own experience of the world in order to make good judgements for themselves and thus are dependant on their elders to give them guidance. it is true that in some cases children need to learn by making their own mistakes, but in other situations the potential danger greatly outweighs any educational benefit. would you, for example, allow a child to find out for itself why jumping from a tall building is a bad idea? no, i don't think so.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Simple way to deal with this issue. Jail the parents who allow a 13 year old girl to parade in a bikini for money. Also jail the organisers of an event where a 13 year old girl parades in a bikini for money

this would kill the entire idol industry in one fell blow. someone like aya ueto got started by winning the Japan Bishojo Contest at age 12 and debuted the following year

0 ( +0 / -0 )

furthermore, concerned parties might like to read up on the samurai tradition of shudo. it links to my first post and demonstrates that this sort of thing runs deep

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shudo

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LFRAgain, the ones that choose being sexual attractions for pervs will do this anyway. be that at 13 or 20 years old. I don't see that we should be wasting our energy and tax payers money to stop them.

Like I said, I absolutely don't care about these misfits (both appreciators and performers). and all that crap about becoming better society... are you a comedian? We have been having these laws and regulations for nearly a century now and we are still a crap society. Yet look at the amount of money spent on that bullcrap! At the same time individual visions of morals have been overshadowed by generalizations and self interest of few in power.

How about we try to be a free society for once. Again, you no matter how much of an adult you claim to be, you have no right to tell that girl how to live. Her parents and legal guardians do. If they mess up and raise a girl hat wants to shake her bikini arse in front of pervs at akiba - tough crap. Even freedom has its casualties.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

griff, children are dependent on their parents and legal guardians. Not you or some bloke in the government that thinks he know what best for everyone and makes big money doing so.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

noypikantoku, why? cuz i disagree with others? and get my handle name right, will you?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LFRAgain, the ones that choose being sexual attractions for pervs will do this anyway. be that at 13 or 20 years old.

a 13 year old may realise that behaving in certain ways garners her "benefits" from adult men, in fact it is thought that women learn how to behave with men by practising on their fathers. but you fail to see that at 13 a girl is too young to be able to fully understand the true implications of the behaviour she is engaged in. it may endanger her health and her safety but at 13 a child is too young to be able to understand the darker sides of human behaviour

the fact that you're having to have this spelt out for you is concerning. i hope for your sake that you're being deliberately contrary

0 ( +0 / -0 )

. . . you have no right to tell that girl how to live. Her parents and legal guardians do.

Sure, I do. When the actions of one affect the lives of others in the society in which I choose to live, i.e., making the environment more dangerous for my children, then yes, I have every right in the world to protect my child. Every citizen of a given society has a right and an obligation to ensure that their community is safe.

Additionally, your argument is grossly undeveloped. By your estimate, it is perfectly within the right of a parent or legal guardian to teach their child how to burgle, give their child crack cocaine, or put their child to work in a coal mine. Sorry, but no, none of these are acceptable, and neither is prostituting a child – yours or not, clothed or not, to the prurient interests of these men.

How about we try to be a free society for once.

And what would that entail exactly, mate? You seem quite willing to eschew all the limitations and restrictions society places on us for the common good, in favor of some fantastical imagined paradise of pure freedom, but you're painfully sparse on the details and how your vision of letting 13-year-olds do whatever they like would actually pan out.

Please indulge us by extrapolating how things would become any better than the current system (in which people - children in particular - are arguably FREER than they have been at any point in human history) if we simply let children do whatever the hell strikes their fancy, and extended the same to-each-their-own leniency to the emotionally retarded men who prey on these stupid kids.

While you’re at it, don’t just mock our differing opinion; Support your claims with some actual reasoning and perhaps an explanation of how things would be better your way. If that’s not too much trouble.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

No domestic law is being broken.

would you be so forgiving if the subject in question was your own daughter? if the answer is no then you must accept that there is "room for improvement" if you accept that the most basic role of law is to protect all of a nation's citizens equally. the thick-headed idea that all outside critique must be stubbornly ignored and resisted gets this country nowhere in the long run. unless you think it's time to return to sakoku.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This is paedophiles stuff and pros in here obviously belongs to them...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This is so sick man.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

would you be so forgiving if the subject in question was your own daughter? if the answer is no then you must accept that there is "room for improvement" if you accept that the most basic role of law is to protect all of a nation's citizens equally.

Not that I disagree in regards to the article here, but I think this statement is very very dangerous. What I might find important to protect my child from (bad language, sports, action movies could be examples for some) would most certainly not be something that most would want to protect their child from. Thus there must be a notion of moral relativism within a society - there is no one standard.

That being said, i don't think even cultural norms can be used to justify this. And I don't think in the case of Japan that cultural norms would extend this far. Perhaps its just something "normal" Japanese don't care about, even though they don't personally like it. That's not a justification, just an explanation.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

yeah, if you're into skinny girls, like 100% of all the females in japan.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

That being said, i don't think even cultural norms can be used to justify this. And I don't think in the case of Japan that cultural norms would extend this far. Perhaps its just something "normal" Japanese don't care about, even though they don't personally like it. That's not a justification, just an explanation.

well, as i said earlier, if there were more women and young people in positions of power then i think we would hear a different story. as you may be aware, a very narrow, old and male group of people provide the political voice of this country and they don't recognise or communicate alternative viewpoints. there might be a huge number of people who want something done about this, but they aren't given a voice

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Innocence lost? What an unnecessary title. There is no need to pump this issue with emotion. The thread shows just how out of proportion with emotion the topic is and even being sensible with the title won't help much but would be an improvement.

When is innocence lost? Its when a child stops streaking about the house because we have taught him or her to be ashamed of their bodies. Breaking down that barrier is not a loss of innocence. Its a return to some normalcy through loss of an imposed inhibition that people felt no shame putting there. I imagine that inhibition is lost easier in the teens than the 20s, more in the 30s, and then become easier again as people older start to not care about anything. I remember when I first removed the clothing of a 20 year old virgin. She had no objection but her eyes were as wide as saucers. I put it off for another day. But people are not supposed to be like that. Its not an empowering trait to be so ashamed and embarrassed you know. Its certanly not natural. Its imposed. And its disempowering.

The article talks about the model being "dazed and sheepish". For bikini modeling? You think some kids in the Sears catalouge were not the same? You think the girls in the little Miss Whatever pageants in the U.S. were not the same? And get on Youtube. You will find teens and younger making their own videos. Some love to be the center of attention. If they like it and want to do it, the parents approve and their genitals are covered, why do you care so much? I will answer for you if you do care. Its not about the kids. Its about the guys watching. That is all you really care about.

And there are many extreme assumptions about the guys. A few crime articles and some people assume all are that way. People think almost exclusively from their gut on this issue, and their conclusions are about as sound as the conclusion that Saddam had WMDs. In fact, most of these guys are harmless, are satisfied with their bikini shots and fantasies, and never touch a kid. I don't care how high and mighty your idealism about this is, its pie in the sky. You will never have it. Your own countries are probably trying to implement the ideals as we speak. I would say they are wasting your money, your energy, and actually making things worse for your kids. The proof is Japan, whether its the numbers or just lookinging around.

You want more proof? Leave Japan alone. Pack your things and go. If Japan is so under-reported and this is such a huge and widespread problem, then sooner or later, something has got to give without your intervention. Japanese women are becoming more big mouthed and bossy all time, just like we westerners always wanted apparently. So any time now, expect to see massive blog space about how child sex offenses are under-reported by them, the insiders who would not be guessing quite as much. Wait for that proof, then act. And if you feel Japan is such a danger to your children in the present, you know perfectly well that change will not happen overnight. Your kids will be grown by the time there is a change. So get them and yourself out now, and keep waiting for the bombshell that blows this issue wide open in Japsn that never happens.

If there is going to be bombshell, its going to be how other countries grossly over-reacted to the issue on extreme and usually unwarranted senseless emotion. Its going to be about how for decades now, they have just been making things worse while somehow selling the ridiculous notion that Japan was so bad. Not in your best scape-goating wet dreams. Bye, and have a nice flight.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nisegaijin is making plenty of sense. His many detractors are shrieking and exaggerating in failed attempts to make a point. Good on you nisegaijin for holding your ground against the waves of misplaced outrage and unwarranted attacks upon you.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LFRAgain,

Ok, so you insist I backup my arguments with facts, and although you have failed to do so, I will.

First, children and adults are a lot less free now than they were 100 years ago in America. When government was limited and law was defined in constitution, not by some worthless beurocrats, majority of people had more freedom.

So in my view if parents or legal guardian choose to send their kids to coal mines or to prostitution, as much as I would be against it, i think it's still their right. On the bright side, it cleans the gene pool.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BC is tired.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I think it's important for alot of people here to understand that we live in a free society, freedom means that people can make their own decisions and it's not up to the majority (that is too often seen as some perfectly moral, infallible body) to dictate what individuals can or can't do. Being part of the majority doesn't make you right. Can we attempt to get a deeper understanding going on here instead of knee-jerk emotional reactions?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nisegaijin-"So in my view if parents or legal guardian choose to send their kids to coal mines or to prostitution, as much as I would be against it, i think it's still their right. On the bright side, it cleans the gene pool."

You cannot mean that nisegaijin. Perhaps if you inserted the idea that the kid agreed and at least got a session with a third party counselor first? I could accept that. But we all know that most kids are not going to do either anyway. Those that do though, they are not going to grow up and become saints anway, so after so many tests, the agreement of parents, the desire of the child, and a counselor making massive efforts at dissuation, it seems pretty silly for an outsider to go throwing up a legal blockade, downright anti-freedom even.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I think it's important for alot of people here to understand that we live in a free society, freedom means that people can make their own decisions and it's not up to the majority (that is too often seen as some perfectly moral, infallible body) to dictate what individuals can or can't do. Being part of the majority doesn't make you right. We've seen alot of similar emotions in the past directed at gays and blacks. Does nobody think that we might still have some way to go? What good reason is there to believe that now, of all times, the part of society that makes all the rules is free of bias and discrimination? Especially when the world's superpowers are sending armies to conquer poor nations for oil, shooting their civilians and raping their women? (including the underage BTW). Can we attempt to get a deeper understanding going on here instead of knee-jerk emotional reactions, because that's exactly the root of previous discriminations that we now look back on as deplorable.

i think this is one of the best posts I read on JT in a while.

BC, I mean exactly that, however if actions of parents goes against the will of kids, there may be a way for a counselor or legal adviser to get involved, but never the government.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@nisegaijin - obviously you are not a parent of a young girl.

nobody forced her to show her bikini clad arse

I wouldn't mind betting her parents/agent/both did.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Its child porn. No matter what. I've seen these "idol vids". My friends have shown me the "flute playing" and "ice cream" eating.

Its child porn once the girl eats the banana and spits it back out to simulate semen all over her face.

This industry needs to end and the parents should be condemned so pimping out their daughters and sons.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Whatever, It's not child porn as the idols are clothed all be it not with much. There is never nudity or sex acts and if there is it's illegal. Most of the stuff I've seen is no racier than a clothing catalog. If you don't like it, don't look at it. I certainly wouldn't sign my daughter up to be oggled by middle age men but if others do that's between them and their conscience.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

One more just for good measure: the author's mock outrage is a typical and hipocritical response. Please ban junior miss beauty pageants in your home country forst before worrying about Japan's morality.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Japanese authorities fire back that it is hard to define what is and isn’t art

C'mon J authorities - in most cases it is really not that hard. There is a world of different between, say, a black and white photo of a 13 year old girl in a long white dress holding up a dove to the sky, and that same 13 year old in a bikini licking an ince-cream in front of a baying mob of 50 year old oyajis.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The parents and the promoters are freaks, thats all that needs to be said. Some of the posters here need to get off their high horses with these long-ass rants.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

btw people get turned on by alot of things, you can't possibly ban anything you assume to be sexual in nature

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I'm sorry Jdudeo - I respect your opinions, and I agree that you can't ban anything assumed to be sexual in nature - but I really do think in the case of children they need protection - as much from their parents in some cases it seems as the buyers themselves.

Do I think the government should decide what is art? No. Do I think they should protect children from exploitation - yes, I'm afraid I do. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Why all thye focus on the 13 year olds? How do those who think 13year olds in bikinis are ok justify the 2 to 10 year olds? And what about the fact that all these pics obviously arouse the pervs in Akiba?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kirakira, I think where we differ in opinion is on the subject of what is and isn't exploitation. Like a poster before me said, anybody can go down to the beach and see kids running around in bikinis, maybe even topless. What people seem to be bothered about is that some people are jerking off when they get home from the beach, my point is that people can do what they want with their time, whether society thinks it's sick or not. Trust me I think it's sick too, but if no kids are being harmed in any way, I'm not against it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

A 50 year old man sexually fantasizing with a 13 year old CHILD ...

"she strips down to her bikini, which drapes on her under-developed form"

in the name of art????

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I think that is where I get sticky too. Kids can run around the beach in bikini's having fun, and you are absolutely right, anyone can take pics of them, go home and jerk off to it. Horrible, but true. And you are right, those kids are not actually being harmed in any way. And whether we think it is sick or not, people can do what they like in their own time and in private.

But I think where I get sticky is deliberately placing a 13 year old (and yes, Mittsu, it can be any aged child) in front of a baying mob. Deliberately setting them up and grooming them for magazine photo shoots in seductive poses. Like the article says, the kid came out "dazed and sheepish".

Actually - seems like you and me don't disagree that much at all! How nice to have a discussion on JT and not be at each other throats!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kirakira, that's good to hear, I also don't like the idea of the 13 year old in front of the mob of over 50s but that's up to the parents and "dazed and sheepish" is pretty open to interpretation. I don't participate in JT discussions very often but I agree this one was nice and I think we actually got somewhere.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Maybe we set a good example too ;) See ya around!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I hope so! laterz!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Japanese Sararymen are the new Michael Jackson...only, they seem to like little girls not boys! LOL

0 ( +0 / -0 )

If the Japanese suddenly started behaving in accordance with is what is currently deemed to be correct, how would you lot get your self-righteous moaning kicks?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

OK, you are right nemoflow. We are wrong, they are right. looking at provocative bikini pics of 2-13 year olds is actually normal. We are the strange ones for not appreciating it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

One more just for good measure: the author's mock outrage is a typical and hipocritical response.

This article is the by the same guy who wrote that "Otaku Encyclopedia", too. Who does he think buys this junk? Of course it's the same Otaku, yet he celebrates them when he agrees with them. I've never watched much anime nor read comics (Japanese or other), but from what i've seen it seems most of it has at least some involvement of scantily-clad teens. Oh, but I guess they're drawn, so it's OK.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Wow, as young as 2 years old? That's just strange and warped. And the horse doesn't have to be very high to say that. Everybody involved (except the kids) are just sick.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

pawatan, just like any other media, manga and anime have different "types" and what is in them will vary depending on the audience it is aimed at. Yes, some have "scantily-clad teens"... others have fully-clothed adults (usually battling supernatural monsters).

My point? There are going to be Otaku for each of those types and I don't think they agree amongst themselves too often when it comes to "other" types of manga/anime. You've already admitted you're fairly ignorant regarding manga and anime, but that didn't stop you from criticizing the entire industry. That just makes you ignorant, period.

As far as the article goes, I can't condone this type of public appearance. Yes, we have child models in the U.S. but to the best of my knowledge, they aren't given pre-advertised "special appearances" in front of their fans where they strip down to a bikini. This isn't in the child's best interest no matter how you look at it. Such an event is certainly going to bring out the pedophiles.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Whatever, It's not child porn as the idols are clothed all be it not with much. There is never nudity or sex acts and if there is it's illegal. Most of the stuff I've seen is no racier than a clothing catalog. If you don't like it, don't look at it.

It's child exploitation. No matter what way you look at it. It's exploitating a child, putting her out there in a bikini, making her pose 'sexually' to turn on guys. It's not like the girl is wearing a bikini for a 13 year old that is modest for a girl her age.

They're wearing bikinis that you can catch a Maxim model wearing.

How can you justify child bikini models? Tell me? It is objectifying them and exploiting them to middle age men to jack off to.

There's no gray area around it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I like Saaya.... and Kaneko Miho and Ai Shinozaki...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

L4dymercury: It is child exploitation but not child porn. I don't condone it I just don't care of that's what floats someones boat. Reality TV is child exploitation (ton of shows in the US about large families)beauty pageants are child exploitation too. The point is while I can't imagine signing my daughter up for this they get compensated. Does it raise questions about their parents? Hell yes. The point I was making is it's not porn so the calls to ban it are stupid. If you ban it then the old pervs can jack off to clothing catalogs which they probably do too.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

L4dymercury: It is child exploitation but not child porn. I don't condone it I just don't care of that's what floats someones boat. Reality TV is child exploitation (ton of shows in the US about large families)beauty pageants are child exploitation too. The point is while I can't imagine signing my daughter up for this they get compensated. Does it raise questions about their parents? Hell yes. The point I was making is it's not porn so the calls to ban it are stupid. If you ban it then the old pervs can jack off to clothing catalogs which they probably do too.

I never said it was child porn. I said it was child exploitation. There's no way to excuse a child pedophile from getting his freak on with catalogs or just taking pictures of kids out in the street -- But to make it a business and turn it into an industry to make money off of it isn't justifiable at all.

Like Crokk, who I worry about, mentioned he like's Kaneko Miho. So I decided to google this girl:

http://static.benippon.com/shop/images/4904252861.jpg

Is that okay? Is that okay for a young girl to do? You can not compare this and group it along the same lines of child model in a clothing catalog. All this does is fuel the problem, makes it okay to objectify young girls in sexual manner. Half of these girls in this industry aren't even sexually aware physically... So it is okay to exploit them sexually? To fed in to some sick guy's fantasy?

No.

If guys want to get off to young girls riding "devices", sprawled out in a couch while pushing up their "breasts", and sucking on objects then they can just go buy a DVD with a woman doing it.

Justifying sexual child exploitation is as wrong as the guy watching it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Many posts have brought up the western Little Miss pageants that are fairly common in the west. While quite distasteful on a lot of levels, I think there is one clear difference. Those pageants are targeted to be family events. They are attended by friends and family. They may be creepy on a number of levels, but if a bunch of middle aged men show up drool over the kids they'll quickly be shown the door.

What get's me is in Japan, Companies and Landlords spend substantial amounts of money to ensure they don't have descendants of "Unclean" people. Yet they have no desire to find out of they have Pedo's hanging around.

From my standpoint, the issue with the Jr. Idols isn't a problem that needs gov't regulation, it's something that needs good old fashioned impolite consumer pressure.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nisegaijin. You are an example of why we need laws. See the amoral people with zero social conscience and an equal lack of moral common sense are why we need laws and regulations to protect the innocent.

If we left it to your kind child porn would be fine as long as the 10 year old said ok and the parents failed to stop it. Or the Kyoto gang rape would be ok because you would reason that the girl chose to be there with the guys. Or that the abusive spouse is not a criminal because the abused partner didn't leave or run away.

Socieites must have a moral compass that prevents the exploitation of the weak and innocent. We need laws to protect us from people who lack moral intelligence or who are out right bad and dangerous people.

We must protect children from exploitation. The fact that you say you don't care about this is more a statement about your moral constitution than it is about the reality of what is going on with these children and the sick men who support that industry. My friend you need a good lesson in moral responsibility and in common sense when it comes to how you view children.

Moderator: Please do not be impolite to another reader just because you disagree with his/her viewpoint.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

usaexpat. I beg to differ. While it is not outright porn, the obvious intention of these events and publications is sexual arrousal. And since it involves children it should be banned. And those responsible held accountable if they continue to practice such activities.

Further, society needs to send a clear message to these people that their sexual fascination with children is not healthy and that it can lead to criminal behavior. And they should be given psychological help not encouragement by these companies who provide this material.

Our tolerance of this kind of behavior and services is wrong. Society should protect children from this kind of sexualization and should pass strong laws against any such behavior.

While we cannot control the actions of these sick men. We can remove the social acceptance and we can remove the resources and tell them clearly that they need to get help.

As for comparing this to normal TV, fashion etc... the intent is hardly the same. This comparison does not make sense unless you are talking about the equally wrong sexploitation of children on late TV shows. Which should also be banned.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kirakira25, can you please show me some evidence that it was the case?

and you are right, i am not a parent, but i fail to see what this prejudice has anything to do with it.

A true ideal society is based on personal responsibility. When that gets overwritten by government, people loose that sense. Even worse, when a gang naming itself democracy tries to force their understanding of common sense upon others, society deteriorates. people not agreeing with the gang automatically become loons, nutters, perverts, extremists or whatever.

We must protect ourselves from the gang of majority that tries to inflict their unjustified beliefs upon everyone. If our personal decency is acquired by ourselves, families and experience, we would be doing much better job raising our children.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

this would kill the entire idol industry in one fell blow. someone like aya ueto got started by winning the Japan Bishojo Contest at age 12 and debuted the following year

Good. Any industry that gets 12 year old children to start their 'talent' careers, Aya Ueto or not, should be killed off.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I like Saaya.... and Kaneko Miho and Ai Shinozaki...

Yes, but they are (very well) developed young women, not exactly 2 year olds as some of these DVDs are advertising. There is a difference.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@nisegaijin

I am not a parent/blah blah blah/we would be doing much better job raising our children.

You're not really speaking from a particularly applicable position are you? Doesn't seem children are a valid concern of yours.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The parents angents and managers of these kids need to serve some hrad jail time, this is blatant child abuse.

The child victims need therapy as many will suffer ptsd from this vile abuses.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

NYC_Samurai - I don't think you are in any position to make any judgment about me.

BurakuminDes - let's kill entire movie industry as well, as using kids as actors is such abuse!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

a 13 year old running around in a bikini at the beach and a 13 year old (doing the lolita pose-sure we all recognise that pose). There is a clear distinction between these two. Most certainly, the perv whether he was at the beach or gazing through the magazine will have the same kind of fanatasy. What beats me is the parents signing their children up for this. I understand that currently many are willing to do extreme things to make money, but this is simply outrageous.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BurakuminDes - let's kill entire movie industry as well, as using kids as actors is such abuse!

Your argument is rubbish. Child actors aren't asked to strip down into their bikinis in a sexual manner for dirty middle-aged men to take photographs of them.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I watched a Japanese news segment on the Junior idol U-15 industry, and the girl said from her young lips " I'm doing this because I'll become an actress this way "

I find it sad that its put into these girls minds hat selling your ass at 10 and 11 years old is the way to become an actress in Japan. Its this warped exploitation, these empty promises... And the fact that its usually the parents that are the ones behind the camera doing this to their own children.

Its deplorable.

And there's no way you can compare movie acting to U-15 Junior Gravure modeling. There's no way. I do not see Dakota Fanning running around on the beach, on all fours seductively looking at the camera.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nicegaijin, your arguments are clearly indicative of either anarchist or extreme right anti-government sentiments and in now way reflect the reality of modern civilization.

Society is by nature the enforcement of norms, standards, rules and laws that govern behavior. After ages of evolution humanity has developed towards this end with the objective of improving the state of most people living in society. To cast this as a gang enforcing their will upon others shows a complete lack of understanding of what came before democracy and of the patently obvious benefits of having a structure society that cares about what goes on within it.

It is hardly totalitarian to enforce rules that reflect the majority will of the people and their moral code of conduct. This is nationhood and society. It holds together our culture and prevents the abuse of many by the few, protects the weaker members of society and assures adherence to the law that allows society to exist and operate.

While notions of no government may sound nice to the politically naive, history and ages of carnage at the hands of lawless rule should educate you otherwise.

Children need to be protected. And it sounds like they should be protected not only from those who would abuse and exploit them, but from those like you who fail to see the necessity of protecting the innocent.

You need to spend some time with parents and realize the moral, ethical and legal obligations that adults have to protect children and to assure them the guidance and care that is the responsibility of parents and of society to support.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

tkoind2-"nicegaijin, your arguments are clearly indicative of either anarchist or extreme right anti-government sentiments and in now way reflect the reality of modern civilization."

tkoind2, you arguments are a combination of shreiking and extreme exaggeration and completely unfair comparisons. I especially love your line of "protect the children". From what? From exploitation? Well lets wait three years for when Saaya Irie hits 18, that magic age when the blinders society puts on kids and teens somehow fall away, and all that was once hidden is there to be seen, and suddenly they are able to make proper choices and see the past for what it was. When she starts writting books and blogs about how she was exploited and how she regrets her bikini poses etc, then, you will have some ammuntion. But one girl claiming expoitation will not be enough. If it were, one case of DV would be enoughto declare marriage an evil practice! No, you will need more, many, many more examples. In fact, others have already come of age. So where are those blogs and books? Come on, oh white knight for the kids, where are the victims? I think your efforts would be better directed a Nike and Disney than nisegaijin or this industry, unless you were trying to set yourself up as a modern Don Quixote.

"It is hardly totalitarian to enforce rules that reflect the majority will of the people and their moral code of conduct. "

Unless you can prove damage and detriment to society, you are violating rights without good cause. With regard to both, you have no evidence and no case. In contrast, there are easily things more damaging to children out there. We can only take even bothering to waste you time with this as something other than a genuine concern for the children. Even if it were real, it is sorely misplaced. You seriously need to reflect on why this bothers you so much while you have only guesses about the models feel.

"You need to spend some time with parents"

This and the "you don't understand because you are not a parent" load of absolute garbage! How did it escape your attention that ALL these models have the approval of a parent? I will tell you how. More emotion than sense. More intense effort to see what you want see rather than calm down and view this with a steady eye.

This thread is full of people who are upside-down, inside-out and backwards on this subject. Japan's kids are doing just fine without you all. The proof is all around. You all need to stick to messing up your own country's kids and leave Japan alone. Look at it as a proving ground. Because one day, you will wake up to that that its been proving you wrong.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Nisegaijin,

Just as a quick aside to your suggestion that parents who make the decision to prostitute their children or force them to slave away in coal mines is a positive way to “clean the gene pool,” you’re being a jackass. If you can’t discuss this without making glib, asshat comments like this, then just quit while you’re behind.

” . . . let's kill entire movie industry as well, as using kids as actors is such abuse!”

Even on the surface, this is a clearly absurd suggestion, as children appearing in films like, say, “Unbreakable,” have nothing whatsoever to do with expressly pandering to the sexual appetites of a particular audience. On a deeper level, what is more disturbing is that you seem to think the two are one and the same, since you seem to think the sexual exploitation of children is on par with appearing in a mainstream film, as far as abuse is concerned.

A true ideal society is based on personal responsibility.

As if personal responsibility is a trait that magically arises from a vacuum of influence. Ha! Now who’s joking?

When [people’s sense of personal responsibility] gets overwritten by government, people loose that sense.

Sure they do, like Civil Rights. Yes, the depth and breadth of your historical knowledge is breathtaking only in its narrowness when you suggest that people were somehow “freer” a century, particularly considering over half the population of the United States, for example, had no voice whatsoever in choosing the form of government under which they lived. A century ago, children toiled for 12-16 hours a day in coalmines and factories. One hundred years ago, businesses built themselves up off the literal blood, sweat, and tears of workers forced by economic necessity to toil in sweatshops for minimal wages, under the most dangerous of conditions. Yes, 100 years ago, the world was a grand place, abounding in personal liberty, where religious rights, property rights, political rights, economic rights, and most human rights were determined by one’s gender and the color of one’s skin. Did someone forget to tell you to take off the Rose-Tinted Glasses before you started this discussion? They aren’t working for you.

Governments of the people, for the people, and by the people, have made vast improvements upon the world of 100 years ago. I know it, most others here know it, and if you have a shred of integrity as you “rage against the machine,” you’ll admit it yourself.

”If our personal decency is acquired by ourselves, families and experience, we would be doing much better job raising our children.”

Obviously, this isn't true, or we wouldn't be having this discussion and the citizens of Akihabara would not be concerned. It seems letting some folks decide their personal decency went a bit awry, wouldn’t you say?

Far more comes into play in developing our individual sense of right and wrong than you are being honest about. You're hand-tailoring your square argument to fit a round hole, at the exclusion of other more obvious realities, like, for example, how much socialization actually occurs outside of the home, at school, for example, or while wandering through Akihabara and coming across a group of middle-aged men leering over a 13-year-old in a bikini licking ice-cream provocatively on stage. Senses of decency are formed by all of our experiences, not just the pretty ones that make your particular argument stronger.

”Even worse, when a gang naming itself democracy tries to force their understanding of common sense upon others, society deteriorates.”

So patently unfounded and unprovable as to defy imagination, never mind the obvious emotional baggage you’re carrying that prompts you to equate democracies with gangs. Interestingly, but not surprisingly, your statement doesn’t bear out in most law-abiding states, like Japan, where societal stability is almost exclusively due to overly exerted control, and society, exclusive of this “junior idol” lunacy, is relatively stable as a result of rules imposed upon society by the majority. When it comes to denouncing the effects of majority controls over minority voices, you couldn’t possibly have chosen the worst place to take that stance than Japan if you tried. Japan is ALL about controls from above.

In the meantime, I’ll show you my mother, sisters, and friends of color who have enjoyed a full voice in their government over the past several decades due to government-mandated morality if you show me your examples of deteriorating society as a result of the same.

”We have been having these laws and regulations for nearly a century now and we are still a crap society.”

That’s entirely relative, isn’t it? I’m certain some folks of a certain gender, religion, or ethnicity would beg to differ with your perspective. What, specifically, is “crap” as you put it, about society that can be directly attributed to excessive government/societal interference? C’mon, man. Dig deep. Give me some concrete examples of why anyone should be giving your opinion even a cursory glance.

The most obvious counter-argument to your suggestions that parents alone should be left to raise their children any way they see fit comes from cases of child abuse in the home. No, not spankings. I’m talking about abuse of the “beer bottle across the head” variety, sexual abuse, starvation. Parents do not have the right to abuse their children. Dead stop. It is society’s obligation to prevent that abuse, if uncovered, and if unabated, society’s obligation (and right) to remove that child from danger, subsequently giving that child a better opportunity to grow into a healthy, productive member of society than he or she would have had in an abusive home.

The irony of your argument is that you rail against government intrusion into matters of social welfare, when that government is largely responsibly for ensuring the sort of social, economic, and political stability that allows you the luxury of having this debate on JT in the first place. The PC you’re using? Born of a society in which society as a whole dictates social mores. The electricity you’re using to power that PC? Courtesy of the power grid that exists in that very same “intrusive” society.

Hop on over to, say, third world nations, lacking in even the most rudimentary government controls regarding morality, e.g., a police force that effectively deters rape, robbery, kidnapping and murder, and you’d be lucky if you could tap out a few messages on your cobbled-together, used PC in the scant minutes available between rolling brown-outs. It’s rather hard to take seriously anyone who bites the hand that feeds, especially one who so brazenly takes advantage of the very benefits of society order to deliver a message of, “Screw society. It’s every man (and child) for himself, let the pieces fall where they may.” Casualties of democracy, indeed.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

L4dymercury-"And there's no way you can compare movie acting to U-15 Junior Gravure modeling. There's no way."

There are many ways. Most kids who try for movie acting fail. There are your empty promises. There are guys out there getting a sexual thrill from those movies. Remember the movie Leon with Natalie Portman? She was like 12. You think some guys were not salivating over some of those scenes? And the parents pushing the children? Yep, that happens in both too. I cannot say which has more Joe Jackson/ Mommy Dearest type stories though. But I have a suspicion its the Little Miss You Better Win Or Else pageants.

"I do not see Dakota Fanning running around on the beach, on all fours seductively looking at the camera."

As long as its not remotely sexual, then its all good? Not even. When I was a kid, we played doctor. We got our hands on porn mags and hid them under a bridge for occasional viewing. We even sometimes kissed the girls. Some of us even flirted with adults. I can only imagine someone like you would have tanned our hides for such behavior and scared and scarred us so bad that we would feel guilty about sex even as adults and have some good old dysfunction to boot.

You too are welcome dredge up that resevoir of books and blogs written by the kids when they grow up, because, just like Saddam's WMD, they just have to be out there, right?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The word "sick" is being used a lot in this thread, mostly describing guys who are attracted to young girls. People should remind themselves that there are sound biological reasons for this attraction. What we now consider a reasonable age of consent in "the West" is a recent phenomenon in evolutionary terms.

Of course kids do need protection, especially before the age of puberty, but these so-called "sick guys" might need protection of their own from the Thought Police.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@nisegaijin - I used to be an underwear model (a long time ago I might add!). I did catalogue, M&S type stuff, but the agency I worked for also supplied girls for tabloid spreads and such-like - in fact that was where the major money was made.

I was 20 at the time. They put intense pressure on me to move into that field. I refused and soon after quit the agency. But I watched as many girls younger than me succumbed- 17-18 years old roughly. The agency would pay for their boob jobs and then make the money back from them with page 3 stuff. ~I know we were all over the age of consent (because we have laws prtotecting young girls in the UK) but I saw the psychology being used on these girls and their parents and sometimes by their parents. They were told they would be "the next Melinda Messenger". And these were far older than the young girls currently being used in Japan.

No - I don't have any evidence that this specific 13 year old in the article was being co-erced. But my own experience, and common sense, tells me that it goes on all the time. You fill a 13 year olds head with dreams of fame and glory if she gets her kit off for a baying mob - she won't like it, but with enough pressure from her parents she will do it.

Do you equally have any evidence that she wasn't being coerced? Whatever - get back to me when you are a parent. I certainly wouldn't let these animals anywhere near my daughter, and even at the age of 20, from my personal experience I wouldn't even like it in the future if she did the kind of modelling I did. It is well paid but you have to be very tough to put up with all the comments and innuendo, even for catalogue modelling.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Japan's kids are doing just fine without you all. The proof is all around.

Really? you sure are not in Japan then. Maybe in some dreamworld. I can get you some appointments with kids who are not doing fine. I have SOME Japanese friends who can share a story like what kirakira relates. By the way, what is this attitude you have? when you find that your case is not valid, why do you cry leave Japan.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BeaverCleaver,

Your amateur efforts at psychoanalysis are empty and unappreciated, but what is more glaring is the unconvincing and contradictory argument that everything is all well and fine with children in Japan. Things are not; Japanese adults are alarmed with how awry things have gone with children here. Or have you not been watching the nightly news of late? A 13-year old boy slashed his father’s throat just before he headed off to school just yesterday. I could flood this space with scores of examples of this kind of random violence, but the point is that Japanese are wrestling on a daily basis with the question of why and how it is children are becoming murderers at younger and younger ages, how it is that children are losing the will to live at younger and younger ages, how it is that children are rejecting the authority of the family, most ironically the centerpiece of Nisegaijin's entire argument to which you are rushing in, flush with self-righteous indignation, to defend.

But hey, according to you, BeaverCleaver, 13-year olds shaking their half-clothed asses at leering emotionally stunted middle-aged for entertainment isn’t a problem. Thanks for setting us all straight, mate.

But wait a second. You say that there are far greater things for adults to worry about with regard to children, yet paradoxically, you claim that Japan’s kids are doing just fine? You even go so far as to blame outrage over these scenes in Akihabara as an aberration borne of foreign interference. But what about the fact that it’s local folks like Chiyoda Ward councilman Takaya Kobayashi who find this development “reprehensible?”

This asinine misconception that the average Japanese are entirely copasetic with the situation regarding the sexualization of the nation’s children is just that: a misconception. If you’d actually taken the time to with parents, educators, and politicians who are looking for a way to reconcile and overcome the “grey areas” that make tackling this sort of exploitation legally difficult, you’d realize your error. But it’s very obvious that you haven’t, preferring instead, it would appear, to cling to grossly naïve and simplistic stereotypes of Japan as being some sort of sexually liberal safe haven of “common sense” where even children are fair game for the expression of sexual desire, and everyone is happily along for the ride.

It took me a bit to place you, but your arguments and arguing style are unmistakable. You have the audacity to come here as some sort of self-appointed protector of Japanese society, and reprimand posters for expressing outrage over this, when in fact you’re more guilty of trying to foist your particular sexual proclivities upon an outside culture than we will ever be.

Right now, you’re about two steps away from your trademark rant about “sexual freedom, the natural expression of human desire, and evolutionary trends in sexual attraction, blah, blah, blah, ad nauseum” and I’m here to tell you right now, no matter how many times you change your username, you’re still waaaaaaay off base with your assessment that you and Japan are fast friends when it comes to underage sex. The vast majority of Japanese society is in no mood or need of your version of the sexual revolution, particularly when it comes to its children.

Children are not a sexual commodity.

If you don’t believe this, get off this thread and go talk to some real Japanese. No, not your like-minded bulletin board buddies who represent an isolated clique; Go sit in on a local PTA meeting and raise the issue of 10, 12, or 14-year olds doing sexually provacative performances for men old enough to be their fathers. Shouldn’t be too delicate of an issue for you to raise, after all, when it comes to children and sex, you and Japan are birds of a feather, right? After that meeting, come back here and share your findings. I’m eager to hear what you discovered.

Moderator: Readers, please stop sniping at each other. Focus your comments on the story, not at each other.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Beaver Cleaver.

Just because a few bad parents subject their children to this world does not make it right. Nor does your capacity to overlook the obvious pitfalls of this industry for the well being of these children undo the fact that there are very real dangers posed to these kids.

Further. It does not make sense to validate the perversions of these men and their sick need for oogle children by making this both available and legal. Especially when most of the civilized world realizes that children should not be subjected to such behavior nor should adults entertain such sick fantacies.

Adults are free to behave as adults, to make decisions as adults. But we are not talking about adults. We are talking about children who are subjected to a process that leads to childhood exposure to danger and psychological damage.

The parents of these kids are to blame in that they are willing to trade the childhood of these young girls for money and the remote chance of fame. Which says a lot about the corrupted moral and rational fiber of these people and of the society that tolerates it.

Around the globe we have protections agains sexual exploitation of children. Yet this obvious attempt at masking sexually implicit activities as something ok, display Japan's inability to deal with the reality of this industry and the pervasive nature of the sexualization of young girls in Japanese society at large.

We have heard about the lives of ex-AV stars that led to drugs, prostitution and more. We have seen the problem with enjo kosai in Japan and we can all see the sick old guys on trains reading fantacy manga about raping school girls. All of this is sick and should be addressed.

Why you and nicegaijin seem so oblivious to the obvious problem here is beyond me. I can only arrive at the conclusion that you value some ambiguos notion of absolute freedom over the more reasonable reality that society must protect and care for the welfare of children.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kirakira25-"I know we were all over the age of consent (because we have laws prtotecting young girls in the UK) but I saw the psychology being used on these girls and their parents and sometimes by their parents."

And I am against coercion. And I do think there should be protections from it. But I am not good with the lazy and unimaginative answer of "ban it". Something you did not tell us in your post is whether you thought any of those that "succummed" would be any different at 30 or 40 if there was any real market for them at that age. Its certainly not always coercion. Some girls are made for this, just like some girls are going to be the town bicycle and like it whether you think its right or not.

Some of you seem to be living in a dreamland where you think you can bend all young minds to be saints. Personalities are pretty well set by 13. At that age, I think its pretty overbearing to tell them what they can and cannot do and just wash your hands of it.

Another thing I think you overlooked is all the other competions and similar things. Cheerleadering has some nasty injuries. Competetion can be fierce and bitter. And tell me the skirts and cartwheels are not getting a lot of male hearts racing. Plain old sports too. I would say any girl has more of chance at a career with this, than say, volleyball. And less chance of sustaining a serious injury. Its not "wholesome". Yech! I hate that word.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

womanforwomen-"Japan's kids are doing just fine without you all. The proof is all around.

Really? you sure are not in Japan then. Maybe in some dreamworld."

Funny coming from you! LOL! No one has demonstrated thier life in a dream world any better than you! In fact, I have taught elementary school kids and junior high school students in many different locations in Japan off and on for 16 years! The only cases of abuse I know of were few and mild. And let me tell you that teachers and school nurses and principals can be pretty nosy and they sure talk a lot at meetings.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BC, I understand that you love kids. But wrong guess, I am no where close to the eduaction sector!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I think Japanese parents - especially mothers - should take some responsibility here; I used to teach at a chain english school, where every Saturday, without fail, a mother would bring her 9 year old daughter to class dressed in a ridiculously short skirt, make-up, and on occasion heels and fishnets! Hard to believe? Have a look in some of the shopping malls in Tokyo! Parents have to understand that while they think it looks "Kawaii" to let their kids dress up as women, perverts out there can and will take advantage of this.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

tkoind2-"Further. It does not make sense to validate the perversions of these men and their sick need for oogle children by making this both available and legal."

I have no need to validate it. It is a fact of life whether you like it or not. There is no magic spell to make it go away.

"Especially when most of the civilized world realizes that children should not be subjected to such behavior nor should adults entertain such sick fantacies."

If you do not like it leave. The kids grow up. If they do not see a reason for it to change when they do, then it does not need to. You are free to enjoy your morality at home. Go there and leave Japan alone.

"We are talking about children who are subjected to a process that leads to childhood exposure to danger and psychological damage."

What danger? Is this more dangerous than riding a bicycle or crossing the street? Really short on specifics aren't you? Psychological damage? Is this worse than failing a test? Or having your father yell at you? Man, you make a lot of claims. But your proof is so lacking. Like I keep saying, find the proof, then talk.

"The parents of these kids are to blame in that they are willing to trade the childhood of these young girls for money and the remote chance of fame."

How melodramatic! Trade their childhood? Man, I had to carry water from a spring when I was like seven, all by myself too. I did not even get paid for it. Oh, my poor childhood! Look man, kids are going to do a whole lot things just because their parents order it. Juku, camping trips, visits to their reviled Aunt Witchy-poo. Life is tough. Modeling would be a cakewalk compared some things I went through.

"We have heard about the lives of ex-AV stars that led to drugs, prostitution and more. We have seen the problem with enjo kosai in Japan and we can all see the sick old guys on trains reading fantacy manga about raping school girls."

What you need are some figures to back up your fire and brimstone. Like I said earlier, one case of DV does not make all marriage evil. You do not need to be ex-AV to do any of those things. How endemic is the "problem"? Rape fantasy manga does not lead to real rape. And none of it is jack to do with the idol industry. If you had direct evidence you would have presented it. You don't, so dispense with the charade of relevance made ever thinner by absent data for that too.

"Why you and nicegaijin seem so oblivious to the obvious problem here is beyond me."

Because you cannot point to a direct problem with anything of substance to back it up. All you got is your over-active imagination.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BurakuminDes-"Parents have to understand that while they think it looks "Kawaii" to let their kids dress up as women, perverts out there can and will take advantage of this."

Strange but true, even in places where they do not do this, kids still get taken advantage of! Imagine that! Even if you refuse to believe the stats for Japan, the stats for America remain at 89,500 in 2000.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

womanforwomen-" But wrong guess, I am no where close to the eduaction sector!"

What are you talking about?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LFRAgain, explain to me how you are tying teen crime to this idol industry. I cannot be bothered to reply to you until you come up with some convicing explanation for that. Are there some Jon Benet Ramsey in reverse cases that I don't know about here in Japan?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Something you did not tell us in your post is whether you thought any of those that "succummed" would be any different at 30 or 40

Very hard to say. On the whole what I could say is that I saw many girls with crushingly low self-esteem, turning to drugs to help them mentally cope with what they were being put through, and those sucked into this world were generally not well-guided parentally (in my opinion and bear in mind I was pretty young myself at the time so I only really have the benefit of hindsight). In my case, one of the biggest drivers for me against the whole thing was how upset my parents would have been!

But I think the point many people are trying to make here is that, at 39 and 40, you can make a conscious rational decision to do something like this. Whether or not there is a market for it is another matter! But at 7, 9, 11, 13 - kids are not in a position to really understand what is happening to them and what they are getting into. As I think one poster said earlier - that is the job of adults - to guide them, not to use them for commercial purposes in such a way that they become damaged.

And they DO get damaged - I have seen it myself in girls as old as 17, so God only knows but being paraded in front of a lecherous baying mob must do to a 13 year old - it must be terrifying.

As for the example of cheerleaders, etc - well, yet again, as in the case of girls on the beach - there is nothing that can be done to prevent pervs getting access to this kind of thing. BUT - AGAIN - there is a big difference between a guy surreptitiously taking camera phone shots of a cheerleader from the crowd, and a 13 year old being asked to peel off a garment down to her bikini and lick an ice-cream in front of a baying mob.

This is not hysteria, militancy, overactive imagination or anything else - this is a calm, rational sense of right and wrong, as a former model, an adult and a parent, as to where the line should be drawn to protect children from sexual exploitation.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Well were all still at it and everyone is pretty emotional about this topic. I'm not, at the end of the day it's the parents of the kids that are firmly responsible for letting their daughters do this. I don't buy it, but the fact that it's out there doesn't cause me to lose any sleep. The guys leering at the girls are disgusting, the girls are getting paid and the mothers have some really crappy parenting skills. That said the mothers that let their daughters get photographed are better than the ones that pimp out their kids, there been enough cases of that too. End of analysis.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BeaverCleaver,

" . . . explain to me how you are tying teen crime to this idol industry."

In response to your 05:58 PM JST - 9th July post:

"Japan's kids are doing just fine without you all. The proof is all around. You all need to stick to messing up your own country's kids and leave Japan alone. Look at it as a proving ground. Because one day, you will wake up to that that its been proving you wrong."

You imply that Japan's kids are doing just fine, and I'm pointing out that, just like your suggestion that Japanese are accepting of the Akihabara spectacle described in the above article, you are woefully mistaken.

Your strategy in arguments like this has always been to obfuscate the truth with this ridiculous dance wherein you liken activities that society overwhelmingly characterizes as unacceptable for children with the regular and mundane, as if a 13-year old sexually provoking grown men were as normal as the same 13-year old carrying buckets of water as part of her chores. No one here is falling for it. I attribute a large part of that to us not being 13.

But you already knew no one would fall for it, even as you copped out of responding with a coherent defense of your position, knowing you've really got nothing to go on but your own personal tastes and predilections. You make broad and grand suppositions without a shred of proof, and leaps of logic that, being entirely subjective, have no basis in reality or fact, e.g., "Modeling would be a cakewalk compared [to] some things I went through," an observation conspicuously lacking in salient details like the model being 13, and the modeling being for the express purpose of sexual tantalization.

While we’re on the topic of “proof,” the amount of data and research into the negative effects of child pornography could fill volumes. A simple Yahoo or Google search proves that much. A recurring theme for victims of child pornography parallels what kirakira25 mentioned, namely abnormally low self-esteem, manifesting in some cases in depression and even suicide.

But, oddly, I couldn’t find a single, solitary source outlining the positive effcts experienced by children engaged in the porn industry. Not one. How could that be, considering your vehement rejection of society's aversion to these kinds of activities? If there is a large body of evidence to support your convictions, please share. I’d love to look at the data.

In any case, you don't represent any majority by a even a slight margin, and as hard as it may be for you to accept, society can and will continue to work to ensure children are given an opportunity to develop the mental faculties to make life decisions for themselves, and at a time that society has deemed appropriate for independence. No sooner. No later. Such an arrangement is far more advantageous to all parties involved as it places all participants on a more even playing field. The only people inconvenienced, it would seem, are those with sexual fantasies involving pre-adolescents. You’ll understand if I don’t sympathize.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LFRAgain - you are a good writer, I applaud your language skills. Unfortunately English is not my native tongue, so forgive me for being brief. I will just comment on couple of your points:

Your calling me names for my opinion on cleaning gene pool? Uncalled for. We have overpopulated this planet largely by distributing wealth via Robin Hood politics. Gene pool can be cleaned naturally if we stop doing this. You will be amazed how good it would be for environment.

About killing movie industry: so where do we draw the line, who draws it and how government deciding anything on this matter is not dictatorship?

On America 100 years ago. Every detail you mentioned is correct, except for every single of American not liking those conditions could say "f*** you" and leave. They had all civil rights you could ever think of. It was all in the constitution, and yes, 100 years ago it did have a meaning. Voting, I am afraid has nothing to do with civil liberties, as America was never formed as a democracy. Please show me where in constitution democracy was ever mentioned. Founding fathers specifically created America as republic, not a democracy in order to avoid a gang-like mentality of majority.

Governments of the people, for the people, by the people destroyed worlds sound economy and turned it into an oligarchy of bankers and their puppet governments who would promise handouts to special interests to get votes. All that is done by support of majority, which main objective is to steal wealth from hard working successful business owners.

Your examples of indecency of what we see today are happing during this era. Obviously government attempts to fix anything has failed. I think that just gives my argument more credit. Let people take care of themselves. There is no place for government to dictate what is right and wrong.

I am sorry, but democracy is gang mentality. It is a fact and democracy never worked. History has proven it, dating as far back as Roman Empire and Ancient Greece. People want more. They will vote more, bankrupting the government as result. Look at all global government spendings and amounts of debt. Do you not see a failure here?

Show you deteriorating society? Look at literacy levels, look at corruption, misinformation, wars, central banks collapsing the economy. How is this not a deteriorating society? Few happy brothers and sisters? How about global society on virge of complete disintegration? You are failing to see the bigger picture, my friend.

I agree, criminal laws and civil liberties apply to children, meaning that parents cannot abuse, imprison, inflict bodily harm to their children. But that is as far as the government can go. They cannot force parents to do anything. If parents fail to raise their kids - gene pool cleansing. Natural survival rate for humans is much lower than it is today.

The irony of your argument is that services that you mentioned have nothing to do with government and have been delivered by private companies (and PC I built myself, thank you very much). Moreover, if government wasn't involved, we would have these products and services a lot better and cheaper.

I am all for law enforcement and government doing all they can to keep peace and civil liberties. That has nothing to do with my argument. But it doesn't give the governments the rights to dictatorship.

finally, my ideal to end all this: One is free do absolutely anything until it invades freedom and property of another being.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kirakira25, interesting experience, but unfortunately i can't see any relevance to this occurrence. I don't have to prove anything. innocent until proven guilty.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Nisegaijin - if you can't see the relevance to this occurence of young models being pressurised into sexual tantalisation with promises of fame and fortune then you really are even more obtuse than you come across in your previous postings and it is impossible to discuss anything rationally with you.

Go ahead and believe this is right and acceptable if you will. That's your call. The vast majority I believe will beg to differ with you.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

yeah, if you're into skinny girls, like 100% of all the females in japan

dunno... I saw a really fat one today. made my stomach turn

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Its child porn once the girl eats the banana and spits it back out to simulate semen all over her face.

ooooh, now I get it. ta

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kirakira25 - easy to blame it on somebody else; just assume they have authority over you. funny thing - young models maybe get pressured to sexual tantalization, but you rarely see this among grad students for example. do you see the pattern here? Like I said in my first post. I could care less about what some dumb 13 year old and her deranged parents choose to do. What gets me going is that people are expecting the big brother to do something about it, although this is entirely in people's own hands!

As for me, world has bigger problems that this.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Most CHILDREN do have someone in authority over them.

Like I said before - get back to me when you are a parent

0 ( +0 / -0 )

50 old men crowded around a 13 year old yelling as she takes her clothes off.

That is just so wrong in so many ways. You can wiggle and justify all you want, but that is not something a 13 year old chooses to do for fun or money. Somebody is exploiting that. Somebody is committing a crime or thinking of committing one. It is misogyny. It is misandry. It is dehumanizing.

Just think for one moment what the girl would see. What she would think. How would that change her forever? Leering grandpas. 50 of them. With money.

Where is the victim you can't see? I have a few. Somewhere, someday soon, there will be a man who sees a girl crying for her mother. Rather than doing the normal thing and going to help the child, he is going to turn and walk away quickly because he does not want someone to see him with the child and think that he is some kind of pervert. A man at the beach taking pictures of his family will be approached by the cops because he is a middle aged guy with a camera, on a beach. Some guy on a train being blackmailed by a young woman threatening to tell someone he groped her. Pay the money or lose your job? An eikaiwa school will have to have two teachers for every class because who knows what kinds of claims will come from some parent about a (male) teacher. Will children, by default, have less and less contact with normal men of any age? A whole set of innocent people become suspicious all of a sudden when you condone this kind of indecency. Drawing lines allows us to have freedom of action within limits. Blurring the lines makes everyone a criminal.

If people have to have their sick magazines, well, that is freedom of the press, I guess, but doing kiddie strip shows in Akihabara is way way over the line, and it is damaging to them and to us.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Sicklittlemonkey, you make an excellent point.

If everyone has these urges, and we acknowledge that they can be destructive because one party cannot legally consent to fulfilling the urges, then the weaker party must be protected. In this case, the girl must be protected even from her own parents if the parents stand to benefit.

Personally, I do not have these urges, and I do not understand how desiring to have sex with prepubescent kids is less weird than desiring the same with animals. A lot of people would agree with me. The easiest way to keep the THOUGHT POLICE at bay is to recognize that on THIS side of the line, you can do and think what you want. On THAT side of the line, you are a perv who is going to get locked up. That line needs to be clarified a lot better in Japan. And I say that what is happening in Akihabara is way over on the sick side of the spectrum. Anyone who has a normal social relationship with a woman, especially a young woman, would understand that.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kirakira25, actually the other way around. See, when you are a parent you develop some kind of prejudice which affects your logical thinking and I can't blame you for that. You are speaking your heart and I am speaking my mind.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I think nisegaijin's last post translates as 'I know what's best, now don't you go worrying your pretty little head about things you don't understand'.

when you are a parent you develop some kind of prejudice which affects your logical thinking

No, when you become a parent you finally realise the truth of all the stuff your own parents used to tell you that you thought was just old fuddy-duddy rubbish and they were saying it just to stop you having fun. It isn't, and they weren't.

Protecting our children is a basic instinct. It's those in whom the instinct is lacking that there's a problem.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I really can't understand this. Maybe because I haven't yet met a person who could explain this attraction to me. What's attractive about a child? I don't get how someone can look at a 13-year-old, or 2-year-old, and say, "Wow, she's hot!" How does a person get to that point? And how does a mother get to the point where they're selling their own child to a group of old men? Or young men? Or anyone? These children know very well what's going on. Even a 5-year-old would. Sometimes their intelligence level for their age is surprising. I'd like to talk to these girls in 10 to 20 years to see where they are in life. I'm sure wherever it is, it'll be tragic. This is a terrible fetish.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nisegaijin, your long post just justified my opinion that you come fromt he anti-government crowd in the US who love the notion of government getting out of their way so they can do what they want. And that usually adds up to owning foolishly powerful firearms and raving on about the superiority of this or that race. But it all boils down to not wanting to pay taxes.

You can skew history and society to meet any argument you like, but it hardly changes the reality that society has standards, morals and expectations that are collective and enforced by laws and social acceptance. Denial of this simply shows a lack of grounding in reality.

The fact that a few perverted spectators, opporunistic parents and exploitative promoters are making this popular, does not in any way validate it as ok. In fact it is just a surface indicator of a much deeper problem. That being the sexualization of young girls in Japan.

Just read the news to see where this is pervasive and problematic. Parents selling their young daughters into prostitituion, young girls selling themselves for brand goods, teachers having affairs with JR high school kids, rape and assault on young girls, groping on trains. And more.

How can anyone looking at this situation in Japan think this is ok? Especially when it is the toleration of men reading teen rape manga on the train, or these pervs in Akiba oogling baby girls, the sicko fans who fill their rooms with photos of girls who are not even teens yet and the massive numbers of web and game related things that sexualize children.

As long as society puts up with this the problem will grow. Because it teaches these guys that this is ok. If Japan put her shame culture into effect with this topic, a lot of guys who get into this would suppress this kind of activity and get on with life. But when society says it is ok, what can we expect but to have this breed this kind of perversion?

This is wrong and must be banned along with all the other sexualization of children. To compare normal film, normal tv or school activities like cheerleading reveals a lot more about your view of young girls than it does of societies. I think most people don't equate any of those activities with either sexualization or exploitation.

Both your arguments and BeaverCleavers make zero common sense and in no way reflect the social reality of any country. More so you both sound like apologists for that industry and you both sound terribly naive about social structures and how governments and societies work.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I think you have just the argument for me, cleo. You said protecting OUR children ins our basic instinct. Can't agree more. However someone's kids... if their parents are misfits, can't help them.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nisegaijin. That is why we have social services and other stuctures within civilized societies. They are there to intervene when parents fail to uphold their responsibilities and expose children to danger.

And before you go making arguments about people with kids. I don't have children and don't have any intention of having them. But I do have a niece and I have the children of friends who I care about. Collectively we all work hard to see to it that we show them a good example. Their parents work hard to provide good homes and education. And they do all they can to ensure that they have a good and solid start in life.

These practices of sexploitation should be banned and parents educated to the risks and dangers that world poses to their children. If they persist in abusing their kids, then the children should be protected from them.

But my main argument is this. If society sends a strong and clear message that this is wrong, then much of this will stop. Especially in Japan where rules are so well complied with.

Sadly the role of women in this country is often sexualized from childhood forward. The hostess and sex industry here is a testimony to that. Something that I think Japanese women have to start standing up to change and to provide better role models for young girls than the usual vacuous kawaii idols that are set as the expectation for female behavior.

There are a lot of smart, strong and capable women here. It would serve Japan better if they set the goal that young girls hope to achieve and reach.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

You said protecting OUR children ins our basic instinct. Can't agree more. However someone's kids...

Our children ie children of the same species. As tkoind says, Collectively we all work hard to see to it that we show them a good example

However someone's kids... if their parents are misfits, can't help them.

This is why we have welfare services to care for kids with no parents, and to protect kids from abusive parents. Because abusing kids is something a healthy human society does not tolerate. As you admit, such a parent is a misfit. I think you just unwittingly made my argument for me.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Let me see if I have this straight, nisegaijin seems to think degrading and or abusing other people's children is okay?

Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Random Task,

To clarify, Nisegaijin thinks it's not a big deal, believes that there are other more pressing concerns in the world, and also proposes that these activities are a good way to "clean the gene pool" of stupid people. Additionally, he believes that parents have some sort of inalienable right to use their children any way they see fit, free of interference from what he characterizes as a meddlesome "gang" of democratic social engineers.

BeaverCleaver believes it's no different from being scolded by one's parents or being forced to do household chores, in terms of the potential for emotional damage from being prostituted, and thus should be viewed as normal by what he also has in the past characterized as “Puritanical” sexual prudes.

I think that about covers it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Nisegaijin,

See, when you are a parent you develop some kind of prejudice which affects your logical thinking and I can't blame you for that. You are speaking your heart and I am speaking my mind.

Actually, you're off the mark on this as well.

An abundance of research, including recent discoveries made by Oxford’s department of psychiatry, indicate that parental instincts, or more specifically, the instinct to protect one’s child is hardwired into the human brain in a manner that cannot be explained or manipulated in any appreciable way by conscious decision making, e.g., emotions. Whereas emotions are the by-product of a human fight or flight response, the impetus of those emotions are the instinctual genetic imperative to protect one’s offspring. In short, you’re wrong.

Tkoind and others are correct in stating that you, obviously not being a parent yourself, are scarcely qualified to lecture people with children on how they should or should not raise their children, much less how society should address parents who abuse their children. Short version: You haven't the slightest idea what the hell you're talking about.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

we don't expect you to understand japanese sexuality. but please try to understand it without your western-colored blinkers on. then you don't have to be so judging

0 ( +0 / -0 )

grl2grlz- In that case, I don't expect you to understand American/European sexuality, please stop importing our women to work in your dirty clubs. Especially since you have so many lovely children to work there thanks to your Japanese sexuality. I really love when people pull the "mysterious Japanese card", of course it's only when disgusting things like this are brought up. Please don't insult all Japanese people by claiming this soft core pedophilia is part of the culture.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Please don't insult all Japanese people by claiming this soft core pedophilia is part of the culture.

So true flatearther.

As for the imported women, maybe those women should know by now that they should not come here. Might as well suffer at home, rather than suffer in the hands of the 'enemies'.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

there's a reasonable book in english around. I think it's called pink samurai. It was written by a foreigner. It gives history of sexuality in japan. I think everyone here who is upset should read it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Why, so we can get the lowdown of ancient sexual traditions and practices? Who cares? I live in the 21st century Japan, not Edo, and in this century, children are children, not brides to be. I also have access to modern birth control, don't have use weird potions and can have sex with anyone I want, not someone my liege has demanded I marry. grl2grlz- If you like ancient Edo so much, please get cracking on building a time machine so you can go there and have sex with a child. Leave the past in the past where it belongs.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

flatearther has said it all.

'It's tradition' is no excuse for acts of perversion. Japan isn't the only country in the world where men and women in days gone by did things their descendants today see as sad, perverted, cruel and twisted, sexually and otherwise.

grl2grlz wants us to believe there's something special about Japanese sexuality that we mere gaijin, standing on the outside looking in, cannot possibly understand. That's rubbish. Most of my family are Japanese and I cannot find a single one of them who would consider it OK for grown men to ogle and perve at a semi-naked adolescent. If anyone had ever suggested our daughter should be subjected to that kind of treatment I'm sure my husband, who is not a violent man by any means, would have given them a bunch of fives for their trouble.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

tkoind2, don't even get me started on social programs - biggest rip-off scheme in human history. they use little poor babies as excuse, but money just goes to corruption or worthless parents who use kids as excuse to get money so they can buy booze or drugs while their kids grow up to be 13 year old whores posing for old geeks in akihabara.

LFRAgain, again what you described is true, but fails to back your argument. What you describe is pure instinct. Instincts have an effect on logical thinking. So how do you expect mothers with protective instinct not to bias towards saving children while having absolutely no concern for economy, social order and civil liberties?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What you describe is pure instinct. Instincts have an effect on logical thinking.

nisegaijin is from Vulcan?

Please explain, if you can, what is 'not logical' about parents caring for their children.

Bear in mind the fact that if economy were of primary importance, no one would ever have kids in the first place, so stating that it's 'illogical' to place a child's welfare above questions of economy is in itself severely illogical.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Those of us who live in the real 21st century world expect more from humanity than "every man for himself." We expect a society ruled by law and by a common understanding of standards of human behavior and interaction. These are not repressive, they are empowering in that they protect us from harm, assure social harmony and cooperation and they assure the rule of law and juris prudence.

Fighting against child porn of any kind is not lacking in concern for economy, social order or civil liberties. A society with such values that enable and protect child sexploitation is not a civil society. On the contrary. Having values that protect society from such behavior is what in fact protects social order, civil liberties and the economy. While this industry exists in Japan it does not represent the majority opinion and should be viewed with greater concern and action to stop it.

We must protect children and care for the well being of our society from a social, moral, ethical, legal and responsible manner. When individual behavior endangers members of our society, we must act to put a stop to it. There is more than ample evidence that sexual exploitation of children is morally wrong, unethical, contrary to the laws of most civilized nations and that it has long lasting and severe consequences for the victims. Thus the perpetrators of this industry should be forced out of business and arrested if necessary and the children they try to exploit should be protected under the law with severe penalty for those who violate this.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"we don't expect you to understand japanese sexuality...."

My, aren't your the pretentious one? Honestly, considering you can’t even recall the name of the author of one of the most widely read social-anthropological studies on Japanese sexuality written in the 90s, I doubt very sincerely you’ve actually read it, much less know what his discoveries were regarding Japanese sexuality.

But lucky for you, I have, having been required to read Nicholas Bornoff’s work as a component of my Asian Studies university work. Imagine that. Simply put, his book is not an academic endeavor. It’s a journalist’s take on Japanese sexuality, complete with the requisite rumors, gossip, and hearsay you’d expect to find in the now-defunct WaiWai section the Mainichi Daily. In his book, he spends but a tiny fraction of the some 700 pages addressing things like child prostitution and Lolita complexes in Japanese contemporary society. Furthermore, he devotes zero pages to studying the historical underpinnings of this bizarre modern fascination some men in Japan have for prepubescent sex partners. So, you were saying?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Fighting against child porn of any kind is not lacking in concern for economy, social order or civil liberties. A society with such values that enable and protect child sexploitation is not a civil society. On the contrary. Having values that protect society from such behavior is what in fact protects social order, civil liberties and the economy. While this industry exists in Japan it does not represent the majority opinion and should be viewed with greater concern and action to stop it.

I agree, child porn is immoral and existing criminal laws should be able to target and punish the offenders as civil liberties of child are offended. This case isn't porn though. But again, this is in hands of law enforcement. There is no need for extra funding and special government agencies. But still best preventive action can be taken by responsible parents.

We must protect children and care for the well being of our society from a social, moral, ethical, legal and responsible manner. When individual behavior endangers members of our society, we must act to put a stop to it. There is more than ample evidence that sexual exploitation of children is morally wrong, unethical, contrary to the laws of most civilized nations and that it has long lasting and severe consequences for the victims. Thus the perpetrators of this industry should be forced out of business and arrested if necessary and the children they try to exploit should be protected under the law with severe penalty for those who violate this.

I have most respect for hard working entrepreneurs who care for society so much they work long hours and create jobs that employ so many of our society. Nothing better can be done to ensure harmony and prosperity than this.

Moderator: Back on topic please.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nisegaijin (and possibly beavercleaver) appear to be using this topic as a tool to campaign for individual responsibility. i, myself, am a great supporter of individual responsibility. for adults. children, on the other hand are too young to understand the full consequences of their actions. i know that 18/20 are arbitrary figures on when a person reaches "maturity", but in the absence of some kind of government applied "maturity test" i think that they are reasonable benchmark figures

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Child's welfare should be entirely up to his/her parents, not government. The only reason why people get child subsidies is that government is hoping to increase future tax payers

What happens to kids with no parents? What did you do as a child to ensure that you deserved to be raised by protective, loving parents? Why is an orphan or a child born to abusive parents less deserving of loving care and protection than you were?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What happens to kids with no parents? What did you do as a child to ensure that you deserved to be raised by protective, loving parents? Why is an orphan or a child born to abusive parents less deserving of loving care and protection than you were?

But why this is an excuse to forcefully collect money from other people who have nothing to do with this child? Todays social welfare is designed to create some kind of support for these kids. While it's doing an extremely poor job, mostly what happens is that money goes to corruption. Bottom line it doesn't work. Let's try something else: non profit organizations, charities, community support programs, etc.. Whatever it is, keep the government out of it, because, just like with everything else, they will do a poor job, while costing a fortune.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

So now this thread has become a debate about social welfare schemes versus personal responsibility. Let's simplify once again what this is. It is not porn, it is child exploitation as I believe many other things are as well including as nisegaijin said parents who sponge government money by having kids and then not taking care of them. Little miss whatever beauty pageants are also child exploitation and you know what so is having child actors. Let's make it clear we don't need any more laws, agencies or other wastes of tax payer money. The mothers who pimp their daughters are losers either truly believing it's the way to get them a talento job down the road or just for the quick buck now. The girls may or may not know what's going on I imagine there's a mix of both. The children may or may not be scarred and they may or may not end up in show business like Saaya Irie (sp) did. The old men who jerk off to these magazines or videos have a perversion. I imagine 99.9% of them satisfy their urges this way rather than molesting kids otherwise there would be a whole lot more abuse here than other places in the world which regardless of the reliability of the stats I don't think there is. So if that's what gets these guys through the day better than the alternative. Again, the mothers who put there daughters out there and the men who view the stuff and the girls themselves (I'm sure there not all forced as the moral majority would have you believe) are part of a viscious cycle. Pass a law to shut it down and it just goes underground which will lead to much worse than swimsuit pictures.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

If laws in Japan are not broken, then butt out, I say.

Sheesh, how many models on our glossy magazines, billboards, etc, are this age?

Pontificating on an anonymous discussion board, in English, is hardly going to change the situation.

I'm a guest in this country; when in Rome...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

But why this is an excuse to forcefully collect money from other people who have nothing to do with this child? Todays social welfare is designed to create some kind of support for these kids.

Who's talking about 'forcefully collecting money'? Taxes spent on protecting children are as much of a social necessity as taxes spent on schools, road maintenance and rubbish collection. Or would you prefer all schools and roads to be strictly private, and rubbish left to rot in the streets? 'Non profit organizations, charities, community support programs, etc' are all well and good, but if they were doing the job you seem to think they are capable of doing we wouldn't have these little girls in their bikinis licking ice-creams while grown men slobber over them.

Come on, tell us how happy you would have been to be an abused child if you hadn't been born lucky enough to have the parents you had.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

cleo: grl2grlz wants us to believe there's something special about Japanese sexuality that we mere gaijin, standing on the outside looking in, cannot possibly understand. That's rubbish.

Many westerners have some very deep phobias concerning sex. Homophobia is an obvious one. We see a lot of Japanese guys acting very effeminate on the TV and elsewhere. We don't see that in the west so much. Also, there is the extreme reaction to anything sexual and kids. Westerners freak when they walk in the video store and see video covers of naked people and sexual situations at kid's eye level. Kids and teens flash their panties accidentally and on purpose such as as a result of sitting on the floor or ground and westerners are severely shocked and think something has to be done to stop that. I used to be like that. No longer.

The proof is in the pudding. Most everyone here is going off assumption after assumption after assumption about how even the most mild of sexually charged situations and scenes are going to utterly destroy children. They are running with it, despite little proof and despite the fact that in their own cultures comparable situations exist, its just that the facade is different. Again I point to cheerleading. You think the guys yelling "Go Bears!" along with the cheerleaders are all that different than the ones here yelling "Mana-chan!"? Again I point to Little Miss You Better Win or Else Pageants. You think they are not being pressured and paraded in ways that are sexually charged while grown men oggle them and fantasize? Same same. Just the facade is different. The Japanese facade is that of being a TV or movie star. The western facade is helping the team on the field or a family event. The facade is not totally fake in any of those cases. But you have to be very moral-centric to no see the sexuality. It seems to be a great part just a psychological trick to help you over-look it, and the Japanese one does not work for you because you grew up elsewhere.

Its not only or even mostly the photographers or the fans that take away their self esteem. Quite the oppposite. Its the people who get all holier than thou and call it dirty, perverted, unfit, etc. who lower the model's self-esteem more than anyone. Is it that hard to see? Certainly those who push children to perform make them feel bad. But its the fire and brimstone people who make the ones that felt good about it feel bad.

"Most of my family are Japanese and I cannot find a single one of them who would consider it OK"

Maybe you should try asking people who don't already know your opinion and feel free to disagree with you. And try asking in a neutral fashion. People entrenched on this issue have a lot of trouble acting neutral for the sake of getting the truth.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

tkoind2-"There is more than ample evidence that sexual exploitation of children is morally wrong, unethical, contrary to the laws of most civilized nations and that it has long lasting and severe consequences for the victims."

You are so wrapped up emotionally in this issue you have no idea how intellectually and factually dishonest you are. Or, maybe you are doing it on purpose, because you think you are right and don't need evidence. So many Bushes here. No little WMD.

Again, lets see the proof that so many of these models are damaged. How many times must I ask for this?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BeaverCleaver,

”For example, the age of consent used to be 14 in Canada. Yada yada . . . “

As usual, you continue to purposefully forget that it's society that brings about these changes. And when I say society, I don’t mean some faceless monolithic impersonal entity. I mean a society made up of people like you and me who press their duly elected lawmakers to make changes in the civil code, or vote for changes themselves in local referendums. When a large enough number of people reach a consensus, that’s how civilized groups come to an agreement, something BeaverCleaver fails to appreciate while on his one-beat, one-note tune of “down with government.”

The 14-year-old benchmark wasn’t just arbitrarily changed to satisfy, as you allege without a shred of evidence, Western phobias concerning sex. It was changed when a majority of Canadians reaching the consensus that in today's world, 14 is no longer a realistic benchmark for determining when children have been suitably equipped with the mental and emotional tools to forge out on their own. That’s democracy. To piss and moan about it after the fact is pointless, and if you want to change the way society thinks, calling them prudes, hung-up, or Puritanical tyrants certainly isn’t the way to go about it.

Proof, man. Proof. You show definitively how the vast majority of 14-year-old would benefit from entering into the tremendous responsibility of expressing sexuality (child-bearing), and I’ll start listening. But until then, I'm looking squarely at the higher teenage pregnancy rates, higher teenage STD rates, and higher rates of low self-esteem and depression that have been linked to children exploring sexuality at a young age.

”Its the people who get all holier than thou and call it dirty, perverted, unfit, etc. who lower the model's self-esteem . . . “

Nice try, Sparky, but I’ve got old t-shirts that are more transparent. No one’s calling the, ahem, “models” who get put on display for these baying old jackasses to leer at dirty, perverted, or unfit. We’re calling the old jackasses who partake in this stuff dirty, perverted, and unfit. And they are. They should be doing their part in the social compact to ensure that future generations of this society are given ALL of the tools necessary for leading full and fulfilling adult lives. Not just the tools that allow them to serve as jerking fantasies for emotionally dysfunctional men.

Moderator: Stay on topic please. References to Canada are irrelevant.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Many westerners have some very deep phobias concerning sex.

So that means no westerners can possibly understand Japanese sexuality, even the ones that are in a long-standing sexual relationship with a Japanese. Right. We live our lives in a fog.

in their own cultures comparable situations exist, its just that the facade is different. ...Same same. Just the facade is different

So maybe it's not so difficult to understand, you just have to look past the facade, right? Shouldn't be that difficult, if you can manage it so can others.

the Japanese one does not work for you because you grew up elsewhere.

Mmm. Hubby grew up here. He doesn't think it would have been a good idea for our daughter to parade half-naked at the age of 13 in front of a bunch of slobbering oyajis. Same goes for his parents, who also grew up here. Same goes for our J-friends, who not only say they disapprove of this kind of thing, they walk the walk by actually raising their daughters conservatively (with a small c).

Maybe you should try asking people who don't already know your opinion and feel free to disagree with you.

lol. You think hubby doesn't feel free to disagree with me? That'll be news to him. And me. And not backed up by anything that's happened in our relationship over the past 30 years.

And try asking in a neutral fashion.

'Darling, totally neutrally, do you think it would be a good idea to have 50 grown men come and slobber over our half-naked teenage daughter? We could serve ice creams, make a bit of money....' lol That ball is so far out of court, it won't be back in time for Wimbledon 2050.

For example, the age of consent used to be 14 in Canada. So if a 14 year old had consensual sex, it was all good.

LFRAgain is correct in everything he says about changes being the result of a social consensus. I'd like to add that back in 'those days', sex outside marriage was very much frowned on, whatever the age of the participants. Putting the age of consent at 14 assumed that sex would take place within a parentally-approved marriage, ie a stable relationship in which the young person would be protected and cherished - not treated as a sexual object for temporary gratification.

So if a 14 year old had consensual sex, it was all good.

Actually, no it wasn't. seduction of a girl over 12 and under 16 "of previously chaste character" was made an offence in 1886. The offence was retained in the 1892 Criminal Code, in respect of girls between 14 and 16, and remained in force until 1920.

the "seduction" of a female under 18 "under promise of marriage" was made an offence in Canada in 1886 and amended in 1887 to apply to females under 21 http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb993-e.htm

0 ( +0 / -0 )

cleo-"So that means no westerners can possibly understand Japanese sexuality, even the ones that are in a long-standing sexual relationship with a Japanese. Right. We live our lives in a fog."

You are blithely making absolute statements where unwarranted and projecting experiences with individual Japanese onto the whole society. You are doing your understanding of the topic no good at all.

So maybe it's not so difficult to understand, you just have to look past the facade, right? Shouldn't be that difficult, if you can manage it so can others.

It took me years Cleo, and I was always a top student. Most people are total suckers to their own moral base, and most of that was not put there by their own individual choice made after long periods of rational thought and weighing of evidence. This is high level stuff, and it took great minds to come up with terms like moral relativism and value pluralism and even they have difficulty explaining it and coming up with easy examples. Its a minefield of overlaps, and most people just give up trying to understand.

"Mmm. Hubby grew up here. He doesn't think it would have been a good idea for our daughter "

Your daughter? I was never talking about you or your daughter. We are talking about other people's daughters. That point means half your post was a waste of time for me to read.

My wife feels much the same if we ever have a daughter. But other's people's daughters? We are fine so long they are not being abused or exploited any more than so many other activities involving kids. We would never press our kids to be famous, or anything else. Nor do I expect our kids will desire fame. Others are different. Other parents press their kids for many things and nobody bats an eye unless the go overboard. Some kids genuinely desire fame, and they have every right to pursue it.

"Actually, no it wasn't. seduction of a girl over 12 and under 16 "of previously chaste character" was made an offence in 1886. "

Seduction is not consensual is it? I said consensual. I was not talking about coercion, trickery or seduction.

How you could construe the word consensual to mean acting on an empty promise of marriage is beyond me. And call me old fashioned but a genuine promise of marriage would be just fine. A whole lot becomes ok if a teenager is willing and steps are taken to ensure they are not being used, ie. parental supervision. Why, they can even watch rated PG-13 movies if a parent agrees!

I say supervise. Set rules for behavior. Establish guidelines. Everything that should be banned already has been. All else, including some of the banned things, can and should be worked with and not shelved. As rightly pointed out earlier, prohibitions often just drive things underground where they get far uglier and much harder to control. Darn near all things involving child sex already have been in the west, and look where it got you. You imagine the situation has improved? Japan is doing a lot better. Their example should be followed. And Japan needs to rollback some the recent "gaiatsu" created rules, before they go down the faulty path the west has.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What did I say? I have a lot of experience in Japan, I have seen a lot of kids here exposed to very mild sex related things, such as nudity on DVD covers at the video store, stuff on TV, and being dressed in sexy ways moms decide to call "cute" etc. I used be just as appalled as some of the posters here. But not seeing any proof of damage (outside of some boy students going for my tackle for giggles or trying to give me a "kancho"). Its sad to see my words wiped away like that.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I will bet most of these teen models feel empowered and liberated with their work. I will bet more self-esteem is generated than taken away, and like I said earlier, the Japanese way of doing things would be at the heart of that. At least, unlike the Little Miss You Better Win pageants, girls are not being pitted directly against other girls in fierce competition. That is the western way of doing things and Japanese do not subscribe.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Cleo-"LFRAgain is correct in everything he says about changes being the result of a social consensus. "

Nonsense. All he showed was complete ignorance of the way the world works. Right now, this industry is free. There is no law banning it or the will to tie it to existing laws at this time. The industry is enjoying freedom and it was not awarded by consensus. It was awarded by default. What might happen is that some people will organize interest groups to try to destroy the industry. Then politicians will take notice and see if they can get some political advantage by taking up the cause. If yes, they will push to ban it. If no, they will ignore it. Will the people of Japan be asked for social consensus? LOfreakingL!

Most of the people who will rise up to protect (defend, freedom fighters are almost always on the defensive) the industry will be those involved in it. But many of them will back down. There will be a few people like myself pushing against the mypotic moralizers. But it is extremely hard to fight the moralizers and panic button pushers and its nothing to do with consensus and nothing to do with fairness or evidence.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

You are blithely making absolute statements where unwarranted and projecting experiences with individual Japanese onto the whole society.

Oh, and you and aren't? This conversation has taken a turn for the amusing.

"As rightly pointed out earlier, prohibitions often just drive things underground where they get far uglier and much harder to control. "

Said without a shred of empirical data. This is a common line dragged out by proponents of ever-lower ages of consent. Where is your proof, sir, that prohibition of sexual exploitation of children drives it underground, making them "uglier and much harder to control."

" . . . before they go down the faulty path the west has."

Ah, so now you place yourself not only as Lord Protector of Children's Right to Get Funky Early," but also as one who's sole wisdom is sufficient to damn the entirely of Western Civilization. Brilliant.

"Its sad to see my words wiped away like that."

Aww. Who's showing ignorance about how the real world works now? At the risk of being editted by the Mod, you brought up the Canada example regarding ages of consent in a half-hearted attempt to convince us that things are somehow "worse" now. I explained how it was a point that did little to serve your argument. And Cleo put the argument away with a very insightful detailing of why.

You, on the other hand, have yet to really explain or "set me straight" on how laws protecting minors magically come into play. I'm sure "Puritan" would be somewhere in your explanation, but even with Puritanical beliefs guiding the hands and hearts of a community, you haven't really provided a compelling argument for way why those communities are wrong, while you, in what has to be the most grandiose display of self-righteous arrogance this month, are right. Still waiting on the details here.

Moderator: Readers, you are starting to go around in circles.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Seduction is not consensual is it? I said consensual. I was not talking about coercion, trickery or seduction.

The whole point of seduction is that the seduced party does consent, is enticed into consenting. If they don't consent it's rape, not seduction.

I say supervise. Set rules for behavior. Establish guidelines.

That was exactly the case in those halcyon days when the age of consent was 14. Young girls were supervised and chaperoned. The rules said no sex before marriage. Established guidelines allowed marriage under the age of 18 only with parental consent. So let's just stop all this nonsense about how in the past Canadian low-teens were allowed to get it on all over the place and everything was as nature intended, with hippy-style free love abounding everywhere. They weren't, and it wasn't. A much, much tighter rein was kept on juvenile sexuality than today.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BC, why don't you just give up? No matter what people like you say, those of us who have civic sense will continue to protect and safeguard the welfare of the children whether it is ours or not. After all this is a forum, nothing substantial can be achieved through the posts here, but atleast some of you including the team of moderators know that there are people who think like us. I find it sad to think that you and others don't care much about others children. Why? What happened that makes you have this self-righteous attitude? Especially considering the fact that you have worked with children over 12 years or something. Isn't kirakira"s experience good enough for you to be convinced that young women who go in this stream to use their bodies for public display most of the time regret this decision? we don't want to sometimes remember the silly ideas we had when we were 13.It might even be too late for Manachan to go back on the decision she or her guardians made for her, cos by now those 50 year old men woud have passed the images in electronic form to their friends and their friends and it must be there online somehwere maybe even forever.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

cleo-"The whole point of seduction is that the seduced party does consent, is enticed into consenting. If they don't consent it's rape, not seduction."

Yes cleo. Through trickery. And I do not approve of it. There may not be a concrete way to ensure that any man is ever sincere in his intents and affections, even if we did employ the old idea of forcing a marriage on him. Even these guys watching these girls perform and buying their DVDs, we can never know their exact intentions whether its just finding the girls adorable the same way as many women do, if its just a vehicle for nostalgia for their own younger years, or if its a fantasy you don't want to think about.

But whether you like it or not, some men are sincere and genuine and there have been oodles of them throughout history. I do not like that people like you would spit in their faces and make no effort at all to separate them from the ones that are not. Its not only unfair, its also dangerous. I am unhappy enough with folks like yourself taking this course to squash them all utterly as if they are one and the same in your own countries. That situation is why I am so adamant that if you do not like this aspect of Japan, go...tinker...at...home.

"That was exactly the case in those halcyon days when the age of consent was 14. "

After that you trouble me with details. When a perfectly good idea is misapplied by society, it is no less a perfectly good idea that cant be more appropriately applied by another society. Besides, times have changed. The necessity of marriage has waned, has have the dangers of sex. So, I would not apply the idea the same as they did. I am sure there ways to determine sincerity that are better than all the risks bans always entail. But do you know the glory of this industry? Even the guys with the most revolting fantasies and zero sincerity or affection may get their fix, and live and die without ever touching anyone. I can find no good reason to take that away.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

cleo-"...while I rolled off the boat just yesterday [/sarcasm off]"

The sarcasm is obvious. But you made a preposterous statement. Here it is again:

"So that means no westerners can possibly understand Japanese sexuality, even the ones that are in a long-standing sexual relationship with a Japanese. Right. We live our lives in a fog."

How do you expect me to respond to that? You make an absolute statement, "no westerner" when I obviously was not talking about all westerners, but western society in general. Then you make it even more preposterous by suggesting a long standing sexual relationship opens the door to understanding all of Japanese society's sexuality. Is this the argumentative version of throwing sand in someone's eyes? Its not helpful, even if it is more forgiving than LFRAgain's wild interpretations of my words.

I know you have been in Japan a long time. I know you have family and a life here. I know you are basing your opinion on many things. But look at what you have written.

Here is an anecdote from my long experience in Japan. One of my students has dolls that he displays and dresses. He attends shows to buy clothes for them. He seems just the type to also patronize these junior models. Is it all creepy to me? Yes. Especially the day he brought his dolls to class. I think maybe doubly creepy as I am a westerner and such interests would get you beaten up as a teen and universally reviled as an adult. But the guy is harmless I believe. But I don't want to test the theory by removing his paraphernalia. Do you?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

How do you expect me to respond to that?

I didn't expect you to. I expected the obvious preposterousness of the statement reflecting your own arguments to give you pause for thought and shut you up.

you make it even more preposterous by suggesting a long standing sexual relationship opens the door to understanding all of Japanese society's sexuality.

Growing numbers of non-Japanese people are in long-standing sexual relationships with Japanese partners. We aren't all living in a fog, wondering when our partner is going to bring home a prepubescent girl or something equally weird because we don't and can never understand their innate 'Japanese sexuality'. There's no such thing. The fetish of a handful of weirdoes does not define a society as a whole. Most Japanese folk are no different from most non-Japanese folk when it comes to what goes on under the sheets (figuratively speaking - sheets aren't a necessity). You'll find just as many weirdoes in your own country as you will in Japan, if you have the mind to look for them.

Whatever your doll-loving student does with his inanimate objects is no one's business but his own. Why would anyone want to take his dollies away? It's when he gets together with 49 of his mates and they all start drooling over live little girls that people get concerned. Live little girls are not dollies.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

But the guy is harmless I believe. But I don't want to test the theory by removing his paraphernalia. Do you?

So you don't want to set him off by removing his toys? Sounds like he needs to see a doctor if he is bringing his dolls to class, that is not the behaviour of a well adjusted adult.

I wonder if the lack of mental health support is in any way related to this article?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

cleo-" I expected the obvious preposterousness of the statement reflecting your own arguments"

Only it does not reflect my arguments very well at all.

"We aren't all living in a fog, wondering when our partner is going to bring home a prepubescent girl "

I should think not! It is illegal you know! Just because it probably won't happen is proof that people seek to stay out of jail and seek to obey social norms. The fog you live in is that you do not know if your partner has an interest. He might. But it might be mild enough, or other interests strong enough, that he does not need this industry to soothe him. Verbalized strong denial of such an interest is standard modus operandi for non-pedos and pedos alike, much the same as a Republican in the closet, or toilet stall.

"Whatever your doll-loving student does with his inanimate objects is no one's business but his own"

Is it? If they were anatomically correct, they would be illegal. They would be called child porn. And as that defintion gets fatter all the time, one day, these dollies might be included as the junior idol industry is by many posters here. The concept of "what is child porn?" is getting sillier by the day and getting put into law too.

"Why would anyone want to take his dollies away?"

Like the junior idol industry, they would say it creates and fuels pedophilia. Given the attitudes toward the junior idol industry and the very strong desire to shut it down in this thread, I would not be surprised if it is shut down one day. The primary source of outrage seems to be with the heads of the customers, rather than anything to do with the children. If the industry is shut down, the customers and their heads will still exist. So where will the outrage go? Wherever the customers go, that's where. This guy and his dollies could be next, "because we know what he is thinking about and we are freaked out by it".

"and they all start drooling over live little girls that people get concerned. Live little girls are not dollies."

I think they know that. I think that is patently obvious. I think the fact is being ignored as people just look for something to rage against, and the popular vehicle of this age in the west is the pedophile, so anyone percieved as a pedophile is persecuted whether they actually did anything or not. Further, my last statement will not be taken at face value or logically accepted even if simply logically disagreed with. The pet peeve and outrage target will be just as irrationally defended and the logic will be rejected. Pedophiles are the social pariah of the west, and if they do not cross the line so we can smack them, the line will be redrawn. Anyone mistaken as a pedophile is in serious social danger. I run the risk just calling people out on their over-blown reaction to this topic.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LFRAgain-"Said without a shred of empirical data....Where is your proof, sir, that prohibition of sexual exploitation of children drives it underground, making them "uglier and much harder to control."

Right here:

"Meanwhile, the numbers show that Japan is, in reality, a safe place for kids: there were 754 reported cases of sexual abuse in 2000, compared to 89,500 in the United States."

Don't say one word about not believing the data. I don't care. Its been your turn to show some empirical data for a long time now. The burden of proof has been on you since the beginning. Stop wasting our time and driving us in circles. Present your own data already.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

grl2grlz wants us to believe there's something special about Japanese >sexuality that we mere gaijin, standing on the outside looking in, cannot >possibly understand. That's rubbish. Most of my family are Japanese and I >cannot find a single one of them who would consider it OK for grown men to >ogle and perve at a semi-naked adolescent. If anyone had ever suggested >our daughter should be subjected to that kind of treatment I'm sure my >husband, who is not a violent man by any means, would have given them a >bunch of fives for their trouble.

Oh but Cleo the arm chair Japan experts have it all figured out! So much better than those of us who actually live here and/or are married to a Japanese. If one's a perv, they're all pervs. These selfsame people don't like gaijin all being lumped together though...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BeaverCleaver,

Your arguments are stale and pointless, and have become, as the Mod, pointed out, circular.

We say, “Lusting after young children is not normal. Society’s laws reflect this consensus time and time again.”

You say, “Sure it’s normal. You’ve just been conditioned by the “uptight” West to think it’s abnormal and all laws to that effect are a reflection of that uptightedness.”

We say, “The average Japanese does not think lusting after young children is normal. We’ve asked.”

You reply, “That’s because all Japanese you ask are guarding their words so as not to offend.”

We say, “The social dynamics that take a young girl from what society has deemed a time to grow emotionally to becoming a sex provocateur for a small clique of emotionally maladjusted adults is bad for the emotional development of that child.”

You say, “You can’t prove that.”

We say, “Prove that it doesn’t harm her. In fact, prove that it’s somehow beneficial.

You say . . . nothing.

This discussion has devolved to the equivalent of one selfish, self-absorbed, self-important know-it-all of a child (you) standing in front of a group of adults admonishing him for his silliness, to his incessant refrain of, “I know you are, but what am I,” complete with a few “You’re all poo-poo heads” tossed in there for good measure to shore up your conviction that only you could possibly be privy to Truth, despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

Fact: The average Japanese person does not condone, support, or harbor feelings of utter indifference regarding young girls shaking their asses in front of horny, dysfunctional old men. Your utterly, incomprehensibly asinine assertion that Japanese do is not reflected in historical, social, or legal records. Formerly low ages of consent speak only to those couplings within marriage. Akihabara is not all of Japan, anymore than Tokyo is. Porn openly displayed on shelves at convenience stores, et al., does not make the average Japanese favorable to child pornography, any more than this small group of men in Akihabara drooling over this girl does.

Fact: You’re raging against a train that’s already left the station. The Japanese were beginning to clamp down on this burgeoning trade in the exploitation of children as far back at the early 1980s, with a unexplainable boom in teenage prostitution. This backlash to children having sex, or more specifically the commercialization of children having sex, was evident in Japan long before there was a substantial enough presence of “uptight Puritanical Westerners” here to twist anyone’s arms into doing anything they didn’t like.

Couple that with Japan having the world’s most powerful economy at the time, beholden to none and answering to few, steamrolling over even the largest bastion of what you term “Western phobia” regarding sex, the Unites States, and you have a complete picture of Japan’s firm grip on its own domestic social destiny.

Fact: The primary barriers to better regulating this offensive sex trade came not, as you imply, from some innately Japanese liberalism regarding sex with children, but from Japanese concerns over the constitutional legal ramifications of prohibiting free thought. One look at any debate regarding changes to Article 9 of the Japanese constitution demonstrates how seriously the Japanese regard their guiding legal document. Even now, lawmakers qualify every answer regarding the problem by saying something along the lines of, “Yes, we know it’s a problem and it’s wrong, but we have to be considerate of issues regarding freedom of thought.” This isn’t some cleverly crafted answer designed to throw off Western observers, but rather a reflection of genuine concerns from a Japan that lived through thought control in the form of the oppressive Japanese military police for 60 years leading up to and through World War II.

Fact: The trend in Japan is towards putting a clamp down on this spectacle in Akihabara. It’s inevitable that these kinds of activities will be reigned in by society, as is society’s right to do. And you know it. It’s why you put up this stubborn fight for as long as your do. It’s why you blatantly refuse to acknowledge the evidence all around you. It’s why you argue with the virtual equivalent of your fingers in your ears. You’re on the rapidly losing end here, and it drives you nuts.

C’mon, man. Hop on over to the winning team. ;-)

Moderator: Readers, you are still going around in circles.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Just because it probably won't happen is proof that people seek to stay out of jail and seek to obey social norms.

But, but, but, you're trying to tell us that grown men drooling over young girls is the social norm in Japan....

The fog you live in is that you do not know if your partner has an interest. He might.

After thirty years of living with a man, you get a pretty solid idea of what his interests are.

Verbalized strong denial of such an interest is standard modus operandi for non-pedos and pedos alike

You mean you decide what a person thinks and feels, and no matter what they say, it's proof that you're right? Right.

lol

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BC, your student who plays with dolls has a mental disorder and you understand that well. It can be cured, and sometimes even the patient understands that. Apparently, Isshie Sagawa attempted to get some medical treatment before he committed the crime afew years later. Hansel and Gretel were also blamed to have influenced his mind from childhood. Ive heard that even in Scandinavian countries some really dont tell those stories to their kids anymore :) Innocence is a kind of a gift to children (do not want it to sound religious) and they desereve to enjoy it while they are children. Adults need not take it away for their selfish reasons, wheteher for money or because someone`s having a mental disorder.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Japan is famous worldwide for such weird stuff. Of course, these magazines or pictures will be bought or watched by the pedophiles everywhere around the world secretly. But if you can buy this stuff in every convy store, it's really kind of sick... Disgusting...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Well, I cannot be bothered to reply to or read the words being put into my mouth right now. But, unlike some people, I have been doing some reading. Now, as I am not here to try to prove a point, I will provide some links that both help and damage the case that some people insist on imagining I have. (Remember, if it has not been deleted, I did say even perceived pedos will be attacked by the hungry mob desperately seeking an enemy). I only want what is best for all. So enjoy.

The first is a video report from Japan about junior models and feelings about the industry. It is not safe for work. If that did not sink it, it is not safe for work. But it is straight from national TV and its relevant even if short on proof and long on opinion. http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=1688

0 ( +0 / -0 )

beavercleaver, no-one is trying to argue that child exploitation/prostitution don't exist outside of japan. the only difference is that other countries have rather stricter regulation of this kind of material. you could also argue that there is a far greater stigma attached to child exploitation. you might also like to consider whether these two points might be linked. look at the regulation of drugs in japan: alcohol is legal and therefore widely condoned. other drugs are illegal and highly stigmatised. there is every reason to suspect that if child exploitation was more strictly regulated in law then any existing tolerance for it would also dry up extremely quickly.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

another point that doesn't seem to have been discussed is the glaring point that grown men need to learn how to interact with women their own age. the existence of material like this does nothing to assist this, and (arguable) a lot to damage this. in case you didn't notice, japan has a birthrate problem and, arguably, growing social alienation problems

0 ( +0 / -0 )

griff-"there is every reason to suspect that if child exploitation was more strictly regulated in law then any existing tolerance for it would also dry up extremely quickly."

Quashing tolerance is completely secondary to the effects on children and to crimes against them. Completely secondary. If a little tolerance to the junior idol industry is what is keeping Japan's abuse rate lower than that of other countries, then, by God, tolerance is the way to go. Again, none of the Wars on X went as planned.

"another point that doesn't seem to have been discussed is the glaring point that grown men need to learn how to interact with women their own age."

Did you say "need"? No. They do not need to any such thing. It is not your business to try to force men to do such a thing. It might be your business to keep them away from children, but that is not the same thing. Its a separate matter.

Now, I can see where you might want to steer them that direction. I am all for steering them in that direction as long its not invasive, forceful or violating people's rights. So, rather than take something away, I suggest you add something to steer them that direction. Don't ask me why all that adult porn flooding the internet was not enough. But it seems it wasn't.

The video gives us a rate of 33 percent of people polled (all men?) had an interest in Lolita material. One third. That is a huge segment. One out of three! I will bet that most of them are plenty interested in and relating with adults of the opposite sex. This is just an extra interest.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Who would like to have some information on former child models? Is it relavant? Of course it is. Brooke Sheilds. Yuka in the entertainment section of JT.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

womanforwomen-"It can be cured, and sometimes even the patient understands that. Apparently, Isshie Sagawa attempted to get some medical treatment before he committed the crime afew years later"

This individual is posting about a man who ate the corpse of a fully grown woman he killed. Yeah, its a good thing my posts are getting so much attention. You know, because I so far off topic. Like with former child models. Well they are not current, so it must not count. But cannabalism? Not sure why I did bring that up myself.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BC glad you are reading up a lot on the subject. Please read up on fetishes also.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Did you say "need"? No. They do not need to any such thing.

so a 50 year old man does not need to know how to have a relationship with a woman in his age group? i really wonder how you would justify this. seems a pretty key component of building a healthy and successful relationship with a member of the opposite sex

0 ( +0 / -0 )

griff-"seems a pretty key component of building a healthy and successful relationship with a member of the opposite sex"

Age is not a key. If a 50 year old has a relationship with an 18 year old, there is nothing inherently wrong with that and not legally either.

"the existence of material like this does nothing to assist this"

Not all fantasies or porn are geared toward procreation you know. Believe me, we do have a capacity for a wide range of fantasies and still procreate. We don't need such a firm hand as breeding stock.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

womanforwomen-"BC glad you are reading up a lot on the subject. Please read up on fetishes also."

Why? When one-third of men in a country have the same interest, its not a fetish. I too was surprised by the poll, but it says what it says. In a country where related actions are illegal and jailable, but the interest is allowed and there is no griff inspired government or society of intolerance, one-third of men admit an interest in this. Do you think it was somehow forced upon them? Do you think its genetic? Do you imagine the Devil was at work here, or that pictures of underage girls have a powerful magic to them that makes men go lolicon? I think that scat pictures somehow lack that magic because I am sure one-third of men have no such interest!

Y'all got some s'plaining to do!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I've been reading the latest posts with interest - would just like to point out though that this 1 in 3 men have an interest in Lolita material statistic - not saying it's not true, but bear in mind that the reporters (not academics, not psychologists, not professional researchers) behind this were trying to write a story that will grab attention. I am not saying this is necessarily what they did, but I wouldn't mind betting that if you went out on the streets of Akihabara and quizzed 500 otaku looking guys then yes, 1/3 probably WOULD say they have an interest in Lolita material, but that doesn't necessarily extrapolate to the whole country.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Exactly. A poll of Akihabara does not represent anything but the views of those who frequent Akihabara. The origin of a statistic is every bit as important as the statistic itself. Not every source is reliable.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Ever since Japan hung up the bamboo swords for punishment at school, and decided to have a more free thinking society, Japanese people have become less ramrod straight and more willing to explore themselves and their own feelings and desires . . . Japanese people have realized that their neighbors are dead dull and want nothing to do with them. "

This ENTIRE paragraph has no basis in fact whatsoever. It's personal speculation build on a framework of misinterpretation of a multitude of historical issues, none of which point to a Japanese predilection toward older men seeking out children as young as 10 for sexual fantasies or companionship.

My particularly favorite part is how you’ve instantly gone from “Japan’s ALWAYS been more sexually liberal” to “ever since Japan hung up its bamboo swords for punishment at school” (Which would imply the beginning of the era of modern education reforms just after World War II). Fascinating how flexible your argument can be, and incredibly convenient, too.

Oh, and about that link you posted: Boy, you sure did cherry-pick that one for content, didn't you? Exactly what population did the report survey? Try as I might, I couldn't dig up any of the actual data behind the "research" of Yahoo's "pop-quiz" under any Japanese links. Nothing on population size. Nothing on what population was interviewed. Nothing about how respondents were chosen. (i.e., otaku wandering around Akihabara versus men walking through Tokyo Station on the morning commute). And harping on your earlier point about balanced and unbiased questions, does "Do you have an interest in Lolicon" really translate into, "1/3 of Japanese men like young children?" Or is that what it means because that's what you want it to mean?

Regardless, the most pressing information you left out of your application of that particular video clip was the unreserved shock and disapproval of virtually everyone interviewed, including the perosn voicing over the clip, the JAPANESE interviewed, and yes, foreigners interviewed. The story is dripping with opposition to this so-called U-15 market.

Furthermore, most, if not all researchers attribute it to a RECENT social phenomenon, not some naturally ingrained Japanese liberalism towards sex, uniquely different from the West somehow, as you’ve maintained all along. This is a point that has borne out again and again in other sources regarding this insane trend towards sexualizing children at younger and younger ages. Japanese sociologists agree: It's not normal or healthy.

And it isn’t lost on anyone who watched the clip that this supposed “norm” you continue to maintain the Lolita Complex represents certain isn’t helped by the fact that every single one of the supposedly "normal" men who supported or had interest in these young children had their faces blurred to prevent identification. Who are they hiding from? Me, the big, scary, judgemental foreigner? Or (the far more likely scenario) their Japanese peers? Hah, normal, you say.

It's fairly clear that you're just making things up as you go along, Beave. Square pegs into round holes, and all that. But never you mind. You just keep steaming right along there.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The poll is from Yahoo! Japan Research, not these reporters. The video says 500 men were polled but not say where or how. But a clear group of 500 men sounds like they were using established methods.

Its your right to question the messenger, but we all know it do your case a lot more good to find another poll rather than trash this one, while failure to do so reflects poorly.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What LFRAgain said, every word.

we all know it do your case a lot more good to find another poll rather than trash this one, while failure to do so reflects poorly

The poll was obviously taken with intention of providing fodder for a rather low-grade, sensationalist TV programme. You want a serious poll showing that '95% of people are normal' ? OK. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-10-25/japanese-poll-87-percent-accept-manga-child-porn-regulation

It's a poll about whether manga and art should be subject to regulation for child pornography: 58.9% said that such manga and art (depicting sexual acts and other activities with fictional children) "should be subject" to regulation. 27.6% said that "if I had to choose, they should be subject" to regulation. 6.6% said "if I had to choose, they should not be subject" to regulation. 2.5% said they "should not be subject" to regulation. 4.5% said that they did not know.

ie, a hard-core group of just 2.5% saying 'leave us alone with our lolicon pictures'.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

official age of consent can be 13 in some places.

RUBBISH, Japanese Federal Laws states the age of consent is 13 but ALL PREFECTURE LAWS state 18 and any one over 18 having sex with anyone 18 will be charged under PREFECTURE LAWS not the FEDERAL LAW ... I have looked in to this rubbish because in 1996 I picked up a girl in a nite club that was drinking, we chatted for a few hours and went back to my place, Next morning I found out she was only 15 years old and NOT 20 as she claimed to be to enter the club.

I do not agree with this Child Idol rubbish, but as this is JAPAN you have to accept things that we do not accept in the West, we have NO RIGHTS to tell Japan what it should and should not do. We should worry about our own backyards before worrying about Japans.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

as this is JAPAN you have to accept things that we do not accept in the West

Why, when the vast majority of Japanese don't accept it?

We should worry about our own backyards before worrying about Japans

And those of us for whom Japan is our own backyard...?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Small wonder there are so many perverted Japanese salarimen, with this going on. This story should be reported to the United Nations, and UNESCO. It is nothing short of child exploitation and paedophilia. It is the shame of Japan. I am surprised that no politicians have the guts to do something about this blatant perversion.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Cleo, you beat me to it.

Japan IS my backyard, Lamborghini. I have EVERY right to do what I can to ensure that my child is safe from leering, emotionally retarded old men with a bent toward pedophilia. And I will exercise that right, even in the face of weak-kneed, “When in Rome” apologists who use “cultural relativity” as a convenient punch line to their latest anecdote about the 15-year old they picked up in a local bar.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

If you eroticize children, it is bound to stimulate some twisted idiots out there, who will in turn demand more of the same. The demand feeds the growth of the industry, which then tests the limits of their so-called freedom by encouraging the parents of ever younger girls to put their children in harms way for a quick buck and the spurious promise of a future "career".

It can`t be justified. Even the apologists for this type of product know it.

There is no such thing as a "free" society. All freedoms have limits to the extent that the exercise of your "freedom" will impact others in your "society". Those restrictions protect everyone, particularly the vulnerable. Children are the most vulnerable in our society, and we vest the policy-makers and law-makers with the obligation of protecting them and others. But of course, they are not solely responsible.

This industry belittles society, and diminishes it`s dignity. How can anyone tolerate this? These are children who have no capacity to appreciate the consequences of their actions. Parents, and society at large should know better.

Eroticizing children for profit is NOT a grey area. It`s not acceptable.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Ahem. Well, it seems that I always tag onto dead threads. What possibly could be added that is worthwhile? It is this. Society is not filled with demons and angels. For every person who wants to take Japan back to Edo, there are probably 10 who want it to get more in line with what some people would believe are civilized standards. You all go debate that if you want. Personally, I think that both have their merits, but what is the best solution? I think almost any solution.

The rest of us live in the real world, and similarly to obscenity laws in the US, we know sick when we see it. For society to guard ANY relationship between a man and a young girl or young boy, it is necessary to define what is inappropriate MOST clearly. Appropriate laws and vigilance in upholding them prevent so much more damage to people ohter than the Akihabara tots and the hen na oyaji. You ever seen an old movie where a 60 year old guy hangs out in a park watching kids and remembering when he was young? There is a scene that will never play again. These days the cops show up soon in such situations.

The social need for order and healthy human interaction by all members of society far outweighs the desire on the part of a few for fetishism with children who have no comprehension of what they are doing. Stronger laws in this regard would benefit everyone in my opinion.

Just as a recent example, do you know what really bugs me about Michael Jackson? For the record, he was acquitted of charges of inappropriate sexual conduct with minors. Putting that aside, what really bugs me is the number of people who believe that it is just SICK for him to want to be around kids at all. People who want to be near children and enjoy them are being labelled as SICK because the law is not doing a good enough job of defining strict limits. It is wrong that someone cannot have a normal relationship because they are automatically labeled as abnormal by a society that judges that there must be some impropriety in someone over 30 having a conversation with a 6 year old.

So go back to name calling: someone is a pervert and someone else is destroying liberty. For myself, I know that there are all kinds of possibilities for normal healthy relationships between young and old people, and I would like those to be protected, not destroyed, in all of this controversy.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

great post, toecutter. especially this part;

If you eroticize children, it is bound to stimulate some twisted idiots out there, who will in turn demand more of the same. The demand feeds the growth of the industry, which then tests the limits of their so-called freedom by encouraging the parents of ever younger girls to put their children in harms way for a quick buck and the spurious promise of a future "career".

0 ( +0 / -0 )

People who want to be near children and enjoy them are being labelled as SICK because the law is not doing a good enough job of defining strict limits. It is wrong that someone cannot have a normal relationship because they are automatically labeled as abnormal by a society that judges that there must be some impropriety in someone over 30 having a conversation with a 6 year old.

i agree with this although it is a little off topic. hysteria about paedophilia does more damage than paedophilia itself. however, i think there is a world of difference between wanting to work in primary education, and wanting to look at prepubescent girls in bikinis

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The parents of these young children who should be guiding and protecting their children have different agendas. A father who thinks that the law has to be reformed with regard to which clothing his idol daughter should wear. Mind you he makes the DVDs, a mother who proudly declares that she will be proud when her daughter gains popularity in the industry. Funny that on the video, the 52 year old cameraman's identity was protected!

http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=2360

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The parents of these young children who should be guiding and protecting their children have different agendas

the problem is, as i have noticed, it is considered acceptable for a girl to be involved in any kind of filth, provided that (at least at the beginning...) she looked kawaii. so a lot of parents will just see that the girl gets attention, looks kawaii, and that is case closed

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The link BC pointed has the father cameraman: http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=1688

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Toecutter-"If you eroticize children, it is bound to stimulate some twisted idiots out there, who will in turn demand more of the same. The demand feeds the growth of the industry,"

Backupasecond. First you talk about "some" twisted idiots, then you go on to talk about how they fuel a whole industry and it spirals out of control?

Just how many such idiots do you think are out there? Or are their numbers going to spiral too? And all because of the junior idol industry and not the kids we see walking on the street and playing in the parks whether we want to or not?

I have been digging for information to prove an increase or decrease in child sex offenses since the big awareness campaign called the 1980's, including child porn offenses, and you know what I found? Nothing but a bunch of controversy on the question. So all I can say is: inconclusive. Your theory, my theory, anybody's theory. Its all best guesses. Even the extent of harm in cases that go far beyond just modeling are in serious question. I don't care how many confirmation biased people rose up to surpress psychological studies they did not like and also probably did not read.

So it really sticks in craw when people view another country and start making a hellofalotofnoise despite the fact they got nothing but guesses and rage and over-active imaginations. So again I say, if you don't like it leave. Come on back when you create utopia at home and all the conflicting evidence has been sorted on the theories you cling so dearly to proven, or not as may well be the case. In fact, given all the energy, money and even a very conspicuous lack of public outrage whenever an article or bit of research comes out that LFRAgain would approve of, I would say that the continued controversy proves just how flawed your case is and how you are most probably dead wrong about a majority of it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LFRAgain-"Cleo, you beat me to it.

Japan IS my backyard, Lamborghini. I have EVERY right..."

You a citizen? How about you Cleo? EVERY right? Not quite. Some rights? Yeah, I have already agreed with that. However, your bias for the western way is pretty obvious, and like I keep saying, you got no proof it works or is better.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@BeaverCleaver

Clearly, I was being circumspect when I wrote "some". It doesn`t undermine the argument though.

Do you think it`s okay to eroticise children? Is that your point? I had trouble following your "rant".

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LFRAgain-"Regardless, the most pressing information you left out of your application of that particular video clip was the unreserved shock and disapproval of virtually everyone interviewed, including the perosn voicing over the clip, the JAPANESE interviewed, and yes, foreigners interviewed. The story is dripping with opposition to this so-called U-15 market. "

You might be surprised what happens when you pull out a pen, a piece of paper and leave your confirmation bias behind. Watch the clip again, and see just how unscientific you are. 4 Japanese asked approved. Another 4 Japanese disapproved, I think, but opinions were not so strong. One woman attributed it to "impatience". I guess she disapproved? Researchers? Not asked for approval or disapproval and seemed neutral. Notice the lack of doom and gloom predictions from them. Bookseller-neutral. Lawyer-neutral. Narrator-expressed shock, an inability to understand, and asked questions both postive and negative. Never expressed disapproval. Shock is not disapproval. And did you really think his shock was real??? LOL!

And the three foreigners and their extreme disapproval tipping the balance among those asked? Big surprise there. Cultural bias. You don't confront a foreigner with camera, microphone and a WHITE WOMAN and a question like that and get an answer outside of extreme disapproval! And if they do not turn out to be naturalized citizens their disapproval counts for little besides. They too can catch the next plane home if they really don't like it. And I would say they were easily trumped by the father who obviously approves and the junior idol featured who seemed to too.

The most accurate score is 4 Japanese for and 4 against. And if you dabble in foreigners, I will dabble in an approving father, a smiling idol, and a bookseller making cash. Seems pretty obvious where they stand. Back to a tie.

None of it proves anything for all of Japan though. It just proves your bias.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Toecutter-"Clearly, I was being circumspect when I wrote "some". It doesn`t undermine the argument though."

I think it does. I think the number of guys who are interested remain somewhat constant. I do not believe that somebody buys such material just to have a go, and then becomes a regular customer just for trying. Its not crack cocaine is it? Most who make their first purchase already have an interest. Those who bought for kicks, if they are affected, would have been affected by kids walking around and seen every single day they step out their door.

"Do you think it`s okay to eroticise children? Is that your point? I had trouble following your "rant"."

Your very charged and generalized question was not part of my rant. But now that you ask, I will answer within the scope of how it applies to this industry. I think it is unavoidable and not damaging in any way most of the time. The few ways it is damaging, it would just be replaced by something else that will do the same damage or possibly even worse. Net effect: Japan is better off for this industry. Better to keep those with an interest happy in some way, because they are not going away.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nisegaijin. You are kidding right? Since when to 13 year old children have the experience and wisdom to always make the right choices? If we apply your logic then the 13 year olds should be fine to run off and join the military, drink or smoke if they want, have as much sex as they want to and live with the consequences of their actions like adults.

Aside from the military, they do. They always have. Unless they are in relative concentration camps, kids do what they want when they aren't under watch. And no way in hell you can keep an eye on a teenager until they are adults. Also, what makes you think an adult makes much better decisions?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Its sad, what can you do?-give a good example of a healthy relationship. That can be difficult, right. I was thinking its gone beyond the, affect the kids thing though. I think the adults are affected, and especially that they would like to be that themselves. I think it is gender issues, and nothing whatsoever to do with countries.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"i agree with this although it is a little off topic. hysteria about paedophilia does more damage than paedophilia itself. however, i think there is a world of difference between wanting to work in primary education, and wanting to look at prepubescent girls in bikinis"

Well. Uh. Thanks for agreeing I think, Griff.

My point is not off topic at all. If the debate is whether or not we should, as a society, prohibit stripteases of prepubescent girls for money, then we should consider that we are not just protecting 12 year old girls from their greedy mothers, or protecting leering perverts from themselves. Legal restrictions would protect people in primary education from being accused of impropriety. They would protect all adults, especially men, as they form perfectly normal relationships with young people. Making clear restrictions about what is acceptable and what is not does not merely benefit law enforcement in nabbing the bad guys. It draws a line around a whole bunch of other activities and relationships and says: THIS IS OK. That is my point.

Moderator: Stay on topic please.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Again, Japan does what she wants, the old sukebe oyaji's rule the day and innocent children are sold to the highest bidder, shame on Japan

0 ( +0 / -0 )

'oyagi' sorry, typing this whilst crying for these kids

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BeaverCleaver,

The clip in question is produced for mainstream TV, in a mainstream market, for a mainstream audience. You cannot honestly believe that a simply pencil tabulation of the number of people interviewed somehow creates a clear picture. This is a very typical mass-media, "Oh, look at what we found under this rock this week" piece, complete with the usual suspects like the father who peddles his daughter for a profit - a character for which the voiceover harbors no neutral sentiment at all. At no point whatsoever does the clip present the subject matter in a positive light, and if you think it's being even remotely neutral, then you are absolutely incapable of having a rational conversation about this topic. Bias indeed.

This clip took an overwhelmingly negative stance towards this so-called U-15 trend. You know it, I know it, and so does everyone else. Your simple scratch-pad calculations don’t change that fact. Had the news clip been more “balanced,” there would have been no need for blurring out the faces of the pro-child exploitation fellows. Why do you think their faces were blurred out in the first place? Please, answer that one question. Why the need for anonymity?

”You a citizen? How about you Cleo? EVERY right? Not quite.”

LOL! According to the United Nations and treaties the Japanese government has signed with regard to child exploitation, you would appear to be as wrong about this as you are about everything else. As a citizen of the world, I have every right under the sun. Being a taxpaying permanent resident Japan is also certainly a nice plus. And having a spouse who’s, well, Japanese? Well, that’s just icing on the cake.

”I have been digging for information to prove an increase or decrease in child sex offenses since the big awareness campaign called the 1980's, including child porn offenses, and you know what I found? Nothing but a bunch of controversy on the question. So all I can say is: inconclusive. Your theory, my theory, anybody's theory. Its all best guesses.”

So, in other words, all of the spit and vinegar you’ve been spreading here about how wrong other posters are in opposing child exploitation in Japan has been based on absolutely nothing? Wonderful. Thanks for wasting everyone's time.

This has been a productive discussion, Beave. So far, you managed to backpedal on your initial long-standing assertion that Japanese has always been more sexually liberal than the West, and you’ve managed to admit that you haven’t a shred of evidence to support your long-standing claim that children participating in sexual or sexually charged activities does not cause harm. Anything else you’d like to retract, since you’re in the giving mood?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What I was saying BeaverCleaver is that people are looking at this “Mana-chan!” through WESTERNs Glasses and posting their disapproval and saying Japan needs to change and become more westernized, Japan does not need to be westernized the gaikokujin need to Turn Japanese. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4hQ6r_87_c

WHEN IN JAPAN, DO AS THE JAPANESE DO - "Don't set your own rules when you are someone's guest.” I see a lot of Gaikokujin here in Japan complaining about Japan non-stop and saying Japan should drop its cultures, beliefs etc etc and become westernized. If people want to live in a Westernized Country then why have they come to Japan?

Teen Idols like this “Mana-chan!” is part of Japanese culture now and if people do not like it then no one has a gun to their heads telling them view it.

LFRAgain - Being a taxpaying permanent resident Japan still does not give you any rights what so ever, you need to become Japanese to have rights in Japan

And MODS, will you stop deleting anything PRO-Japan that I post. You seem to let comments attacking Japan stay yet delete comments that defend Japan.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LFRAgain,-"My particularly favorite part is how you’ve instantly gone from “Japan’s ALWAYS been more sexually liberal” "

Its an interesting quote, because I don't remember saying it. Is it really a quote, or are you putting words in my mouth? I really hope it is a quote, word for word, and you can tell me where you got it, because man, you are in a deep enough hole already.

"You cannot honestly believe that a simply pencil tabulation of the number of people interviewed somehow creates a clear picture."

Of your bias? It most certainly does. And those words directed at me shows your bias yet again, shows how your thinking is completely clouded by emotion and how you logic has gone south.

You said virtually every person in the clip showed shock and disapproval. My pen proved that was not true. It proved you are seeing what you want to see, and assuming people's opinions who were neither asked nor directly expressed their opinion somehow share yours.

My last sentence in that post again: "None of it proves anything for all of Japan though. It just proves your bias."

So yeah, I know this wanna-be documentary began as proof of nothing (poll separate mind you, it MIGHT have merit where the clip does not). But as soon as you watched it and saw a clear majority of disapproval that was not there, you proved how much your bias is in control of what you see and think, and that evidence you do not like will be promptly discarded, just because you don't like it. Confirmation bias. Even if I accepted the 3 foreigners, 7 is still not virtually everyone compared to 4. Assuming the opinion of every one interviewed, actually accepting a little of your bias (except the lawyer, can't even guess where to put him) putting 2 researchers and narrator in the con, and father, bookseller, and idol in the pro, we get 10 to 7, still not virtually everyone. Your bias is like an elephant in the room you refuse to acknowledge. Its beyond ridiculous.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Lamborghini,

Apparently you missed the recurring theme throughout this entire thread, but the point being made is that this is not something that only foreigners notice and are opposed to. At the risk of boring you with a repetition of one of the earliest points made in the thread (and in the article), Chiyoda Ward councilman Takaya Kobayashi says, "The residents of Akihabara and I find it reprehensible." His words, not those of Westerners allegedly bent on "Westernizing" Japan. It just so happens that I, and many other foreigners agree with him. And it also just so happens that the vast majority (87%) of the Japanese public over 20 agrees as well (http://www8.cao.go.jp/survey/tokubetu/h19/h19-yugai.pdf), believing that materials that exploit or harm children, even this borderline “grey area” crap, should be prohibited.

And as much as it’s appreciated that you’re rushing to Japan’s defense, “Japan bashing” isn’t what’s going on here in the least. In fact, there’s been a great deal of time and energy expended on my part and Cleo’s part to convince a certain poster that the vast majority of Japanese men are not, as he would claim, interested in kiddie porn. That hardly sounds like the efforts of anyone who's anti-Japan.

Furthermore, expressing the opinion that this junior idol garbage, a trend that purposefully skirts existing laws in order to provide as close to a sexually titillating product as possible without being illegal (chewing up a banana, then spitting out the paste to simulate semen on the face?), is deeply, profoundly wrong is not ANTI-Japan. It’s anti-Exploitative a-holes who produce this crap. Unless, of course, you’re suggesting that the 87% of the Japanese adult public who also oppose this underage garbage hates its own country?

As to your point regarding my rights in Japan, when it comes to protecting the life and wellbeing of my child, sorry, again, you are wrong. The Japanese Child Welfare Law guarantees that my child, regardless of citizenship, will be protected from harm as far as Japanese law can protect it. That is further reinforced by a number of United Nations resolutions and treaties to which Japan is a happy and willing signatory. Furthermore, as a permanent resident, I do indeed have specifically enumerated rights with regard to my child’s welfare, thanks in large part to a small number of foreign residents who didn’t simply tow the “Do as the Japanese Do” line, and take civil and human rights abuses with nary a peep of opposition. So, thank you for the “When In Rome” lesson, but I’m afraid these particular Romans aren’t rooting quite for what you think they are.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BeaverCleaver,

"Its an interesting quote, because I don't remember saying it . . . "

Playing coy and oblivious just doesn't suit you.

Well, then again . . .

Again, your capacity for intellectual dishonesty is indeed vast. That you can't (or won't) see that there isn't an iota of approval on the part of the producers of this video segment, much less neutrality, speaks volumes about just how clouded your perception is of the topic. But like I said, you just keep plugging away there, champ.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LFRAgain-"Again, your capacity for intellectual dishonesty is indeed vast."

Did I deny saying it? No, I did not. It sounds like something I might have said, but it also appears parsed and out of context. But, again, we have clear onus on you and you balking. You are the one who is intellectually dishonest. Asking for an exact quote rather than a paraphrase is completely above board. Intellectual dishonesty is acting like it isn't and holding out on doing it.

I will gladly explain to you why there is no disparity in the two statements, but given your emotionalism, refusal to come out of attack mode, lack of clarity and honesty, I am not about to go tinkering with half a picture and guess about what I meant and what I was talking about. The thread is filled with enough guessing as it is, not to mention your intellectual dishonesty.

As an aside, would stop accusing me of your sins?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@BeaverCleaver

sigh Well have to agree to disagree on whether its a growth industry or not. If you have reliable stats which establish that the audience for this material is relatively constant, Ill concede the point. The same goes for whether or not its a growth industry.

All hedging aside, your answer is "yes, it`s okay to eroticize children".

So, if I follow your argument; there will always be people who will get their freak on to this type of material, therefore we should appease them by supplying it, since it does more good than harm to encourage these people to think that having sexual fantasies about children is okay. Therefore, exploiting children for the sexual gratification (and profit) of adults is actually doing society a favour. Afterall, it doesn`t do any damage, and we are all better off because of it.

That`s your argument?! Sorry BC, I appreciate the vigour with which you defend your arguments, but this is simply wrong on so many levels, and to believe this argument is simply naive. There are consequences for allowing, even encouraging, people to believe that having sexual fantasies about children is okay.

Im sure you can think of a few. Again, well just have to agree to disagree on this point.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

LFRAgain-" Why do you think their faces were blurred out in the first place? Please, answer that one question. Why the need for anonymity?"

I think everyone not born yesterday knows the answer to that question. Scant few people go on record detailing their sexual predilictions, it hardly matters the prediliction. Can you imagine the effects of just going on national TV and saying how much you just love going down on a woman? How it really does it for you? You would never hear the end of it if you worked in an office. If you were an English teacher, you probably would not get your contract renewed next year because some kids would never shut up about it and parents would be appalled.

On the other hand, if you went on TV and said anything and everthing sexual was disgusting, and even conception should be test tube and in-vitro (but never shouted or insisted it be law) you would get a few raised eyebrows but I doubt your career would be in jeopardy. Such is the weirdness of human beings. You may safely insult any sexual preference or desire. Admitting one exposes you to social problems.

What is more, I would not be surprised if there was porn on your harddrive you don't show your wife. I bet you got kinks you don't tell her about either. Detailing what you got and like on TV would sort of be the same as showing and telling her. Duh. Would you ask the same question if they were asking people if they cheated and blurred their faces if they said "yes"?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Toecutter-"Well have to agree to disagree on whether its a growth industry or not. "

That my friend is a completely different topic. Not every guy with an interest runs out and buys immediately. You think some guys might be camera shy? Yeah, every store has cameras these days. The industry grows as more guys get over whatever is keeping them from the bookstore and as they accept that its their only legal route to what they want. (Hopefully abandon any illegal things they were doing). The industry growing does not prove that loli is as addictive as crack cocaine. I am not buying that. But if you think it is, I would love hear why.

"Therefore, exploiting children for the sexual gratification (and profit) of adults is actually doing society a favour. "

That is where you slipped. No children are being exploited. They are not even naked.

"There are consequences for allowing, even encouraging, people to believe that having sexual fantasies about children is okay."

Allowing? You cannot stop people having fantasies, so I suggest you get over that before you go bald. Encouraging? Maybe if some aliens fall to Earth ignorant of the law they would feel encouraged! Come on, its no mystery that acting out the fantasy is as illegal as acting out the movie Scream and butchering half the town! And yes, the movie Scream worries me more than this, which isn't much.

I know and agree that some people will be influenced by this, but like I keep saying, THE WORLD IS FULL OF CHILDREN AND YOU CANNOT MISS THEM, so some non-nude pictures even with bikinis and sexy poses is still not going to be the primary stimili that makes a man realize he likes kids. So yes, throw that dog a bone before he tears your kid's leg off.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It's perfectly normal for men to look at teenage girls and feel aroused, just as they would be aroused by any older female. I believe this article focuses upon Mana-chan who is a teenager.

It happens all the time. On the street, on TV and images in magazines. The men aren't 'sick', they don't need therapy and lead otherwise boringly normal lives.

Sadly, the whole issue of U-15 idols has been hijacked by the 'castrate and lock 'em up' vigil-anti mob. Reasoned, non-hysterical debate is impossible.

Why do the Japanese allow this 'sick filth'? Because they, quite reasonably, see no harm in monitoring and controling it's production.

Naturally Mana-Chan was "looking dazed and sheepish". Press conferences and photo calls such as this can be quite intimidating. It in no way suggests that she is being coerced.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Oh, and Toecutter, ideals are great and all, but if you cannot figure out where the possible stops and the impossible begins, you run a serious risk of doing more harm than good.

There used to be a day when kids sat on Santa's lap. We all know some guys got their jollies doing that. I sat on Santa's lap a few times. Oh well. It was better than sending the message "Be afraid of Santa, be VERY afraid of Santa!" I would bet the overwhelming majority of even the guys who were getting their jollies never harmed a kid. But I have no idea what their like are doing today, but I suspect its worse. And having kids on the alert for Santa is not very positive either.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

men feeling attracted to young girls they see walking around on the street does indeed happen, and may do no harm, but should at least be frowned upon since it is of little benefit to society and the possible risks involved are great. that said, having an interest in place to present this material is not frowning upon it, in fact, it is the opposite. making this material a commercial commodity communicates suggests some degree of tacit legitimisation of it. i believe this is what a lot of people on this thread have been trying to say.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"but should at least be frowned upon since it is of little benefit to society and the possible risks involved are great."

Little benefit to society? I guess we could also say that any sexual interest beyond intercourse for procreation is of little benefit to society and start frowning upon it. Breast lovers, your prediliction has been deemed of "little benefit to society". Clean your harddrive of your mammary filth, now.

And possible risks? Man, what doesn't have a "possible" risk? Lakes, ponds, swimming pools and bathtubs are possible risks that a child could die, far more than anything this junior idol industry could possibly spark, they are a huge danger. Are you campaigning to fill those bodies of water in? What possible risks about the junior idol industry are you alerting us to that compares to those? Some of those bodies of water are also of little benefit to society. Some do nothing but breed mosquitos which spread West Nile Disease!

"that said, having an interest in place to present this material is not frowning upon it, in fact, it is the opposite."

Having clear laws against putting the fantasy to reality that can get you jail time is frowning upon it ten times more than being able to purchase some pictures is smiling upon it.

"making this material a commercial commodity communicates suggests some degree of tacit legitimisation of it. i believe this is what a lot of people on this thread have been trying to say."

Yes, and I do not deny that. But that little bit of extra frowning upon it is not going to accomplish anything.

This is the same as saying banning violent films and games will reduce people's desire to be violent, and therefore, violence in society will go down. If people were living like rats in an extraordinarily comfortable lab cage, and all other factors were eliminated, it might actually work. But since you can never isolate people from much greater factors affecting their tendency for violence or their sexuality, its not going to do anything positive. In fact, the removal of a vehicle for release and satisfaction for desires picked up by living in any real society are just going to cause more trouble. By the numbers, Japan seems to be doing far better than where this "frowning upon it" business is scripture.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

it is of little benefit to society and the possible risks involved are great

Benefit to society? Risks involved? How many other things could you name which have little or no benfit to society? What an odd viewpoint! As for risks! What risks are there in an ordinary guy/girl looking at a member of the opposite sex in a sexual manner.

If I happen to notice a pretty 16 year old there are a number of things which cross my mind, some of them are sexual. What risk is there in this? Am I now in danger of becoming a sexual deviant? Am I already a sexual deviant? Is this uncommon behaviour? Does it need to be surpressed? Should we ask young ladies to wear longer skirts and wolly sweaters?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The people who are pro-junior idol are nothing but old pervs who dream about sleeping with children, so that is why they buy those magazines and watch the videos because they want to have their fantasies. The parents who permit their children to do this, as well as any parents who allow their children to be sexualized, care more about money than their own children. I believe Japan has took it to an extreme when it comes to openess and acceptance, but any Western country will have their magazines and websites, the difference is it is not openly supported by the majority of Western citizens and governments as Japan does.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This is horrible to say the least. Japan is supposed to be a first world nation with basic morals.

Not only are they Sexualizing children but also profiting off it is just the lowest of the low. And the fact that the elders of Japan's society are the biggest demographic for this is even more shocking.

It's no wonder Japan's birthrate has dropped to the lowest its ever been, their common morals and maturity is at a all time low. Why don't people speak out against this in Japan?

I love Japan but man, this is just low and depressing.. Has there been any update to how Japan treats this "industry"?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Login to leave a comment

Facebook users

Use your Facebook account to login or register with JapanToday. By doing so, you will also receive an email inviting you to receive our news alerts.

Facebook Connect

Login with your JapanToday account

User registration

Articles, Offers & Useful Resources

A mix of what's trending on our other sites