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Japanese-American graduate recalls wartime ordeal

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It must have been tough,but there is a double edged-sword..I wonder how safe these citizens would have been when word of Japanese atrocities leaked out into the public realm? They have also received an apology and compensation.As tough as it no doubt was, it would have been a damn sight better than being an American Japanese in Japan,where they would have been executed and tortured as America spies by the Kempeitai (they did this to Okinawans who had been relocated after battles by the US military) and it would have been 1 hundred times better than the fate of Australian,British,Dutch nurses in Singapore and Indonesia,the people of East Timor,Vietnam and Thailand,the Koreas,China and of course the soldiers forced to do forced labour for the Aso company. The internees were victims of the time.They were not physically mistreated and for that they should be somewhat grateful.

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Having said that,the Americacn Japanese can be very proud of their contribution to America and not least,the fact that so many fought against the Japanese under the American flag,with such valour.

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"The fact that so many fought against the japanese under the American flag"

This is incorrect. Very few other than the translators served in the Pacific. The ones the accepted the allegiance fought for the U.S. in Europe, and most decorated was the 442 Regimental Combat Team that fought in Italy, France, and Germany, but had the highest casualty.

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People who were relocated were allowed to leave their camps and settle outside the exclusion zone; those people who were placed in the internment centers were treated as enemy aliens. For clarification of the internment and relocation issues, this is a good place to start:

http://www.japan-101.com/history/japanese_american_internment.htm

Thankfully Mr. Matsumoto's legacy is nothing like Tomoya Kawakita "Meatball"; we all make choices in life.

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That was just good-ole-American racism when they put those Japanese Americans in those camps. I know that happened because of the shock and pain of war at Pearl Harbor, but it was wrong what America had did. Anyway, America did compensate them for damages.

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That was just good-ole-American racism

Yea, the 1940's 50's and 60's were plenty full of racism.

But America has had very very tough anti-discrimination laws for a long time now....

I am wondering when, if ever, Japan will grow up and out of that 18th century mindset and join the international community....?

Until then, they will remain a country of 3rd rate.

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Anyway, America did compensate them for damages

Not exactly true. Yes, the American government gave them an apology years later, but there was little if nothing in the way of monetary compensation. In fact, the debate still lingers over whether or not Japanese Americans were adequately compensated. Elected officials such as Senator Daniel Inouye continue to battle with the government over this matter. The Japanese Americans still had to struggle to be accepted back into society and earn a living through their hard work.

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I do not believe Japanese-Americans were adequately compensated: my husband's family owned property in Pasadena, CA...the market value today is in the millions. How does one place a monetary value on family heirlooms his Grandparents brought over from Japan ??

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About 6,000 Nisei spent WWII in Japan -- not in internment camps but living pretty much as other Japanese. Some were recruited to help as interpreters and engage in propaganda activities (such as the Tokyo Rose gals) for the J-Govt. This probably had something to do with the suspicion of the Nikkei in the US. The big issue many can't seem to get is that the US had to do something with all the Issei who became enemy aliens after the Pearl Harbor attack. Imperial Japan sure did something with all the enemy gaijin in Japan, and in all the countries it invaded. It's odd that those who renounced their US citizenship were eligible to receive compensation from the US Govt.

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Osakadaz, going on and on about what the Japanese military did is irrevelant to our governments mistreatment of civilians who were American citizens. THe US govt has recognized that it was wrong and apologized. We fought a vicuous war and these people were already on the receiving end of racism since the 1920s, it only got worse after Pearl Harbor.

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The focus needs to be on the bad guys here. Enough anti-American sentiment.

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My 88 year old grandmother told me, Japanese Americans were treated no better then Black Americans, both had to go to the same separated bathroom for colored folks. She said, Japanese weren't allowed to go into white restruants or homes from the front door, they had to go to the back door to get service.

She claimed Japanese had to sit in the back of the bus the same as Chinese, Blacks, and Mexicans. Racism was deep rooted at that time, and minorities started almost equally, accept for blacks because we came out of slavery without compensation.

Blacks basically fought for all the civil rights in America for minorities, of course with help from good whites. What I didn't like about the Japanese Americans, is that most of them vacated America to Hawaii after they were persecution and experienced direct discrimination.

America is all about struggle, and if Japanese Americans want more of the American pie, it's not going to be handed to you on a plate with peaches. You gotta stay in the country and put in some hard work and fighting, not leave to Hawaii or back to Japan because your feelings got hurt. If Japanese Americans haven't been compensated fully, then you gotta protest and put in work to get it.

There are no excuses or complaints for other minorities, blacks run the most powerful country in the world that came out of slavery. So just start putting in some hard work, you'll see the results.

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Internment of Japanese citizens was hardly an action that just the United States took. Canada and other nations did the same thing. In fact life in the Canadian camps was much harder.

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When we will we all be able to agree that the Japanese were the victims of WWII? They were so hard done by and we all need to remember this, and not let all the terrible things they suffered be forgotten.

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hope japanese ppl can enjoy peace forever .

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Just dreadful that people can post such unadulterated baloney on JT. What are you talking about? The Japanese Americans fought in the European theater, not against the Japanese. For God sake learn a few basics before coming on here.

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The big issue many can't seem to get is that the US had to do something >with all the Issei who became enemy aliens after the Pearl Harbor >attack. Imperial Japan sure did something with all the enemy gaijin in >Japan, and in all the countries it invaded.

Enemy Aliens were deported as were "enemy" Germans. You won't find many Americans apologizing for that. The real issue for us are the Nissei who were born in the United States and were American citizens. What "Imperial Japan" did, a fascist military dicatorship with their enemy aliens is hardly an excuse for what the United States should have done, unless you consider them equal and to be held to the same standards.

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The focus needs to be on the bad guys here. Enough anti-American >sentiment.

Hate to break it to ya but the "bad guys" here are the US Government. They even apologized for it.

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mindovermatter at 11:12 AM JST - 1st September I am wondering when, if ever, Japan will grow up and out of that 18th >century mindset and join the international community....? Until then, they will remain a country of 3rd rate.

Wow can you be more OT than bashing Japan for being racist?

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When we will we all be able to agree that the Japanese were the victims of WWII? They were so hard done by and we all need to remember this, and not let all the terrible things they suffered be forgotten.

Huh?? I think the almost 5.5 million civilians (even forgetting military losses) killed by the Japanese military during the war (particularly China) would disagree with your statement.

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Matsumoto said he and the other Japanese-American students were made to feel welcome by their new schoolmates and others in the community. Someone—he wasn’t sure who—picked up part of the tab for his education. The administrators and staff of the campus YMCA helped the Japanese-American students settle in.

Beats fighting on Iwo Jima or Okinawa for Imperial Japan but what do I know?

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When we will we all be able to agree that the Japanese were the victims >of WWII? They were so hard done by and we all need to remember this, and >not let all the terrible things they suffered be forgotten.

Totally OT. The "Japanese" are not the subject of this artcile. Americans of Japanese decent are the subject.

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Beats fighting on Iwo Jima or Okinawa for Imperial Japan but what do I >know?

And why would an American fight for Imperial Japan in Iwo Jima or Okinawa? Do you people not understand what "Japanese-American" means? THey are Americans.

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"Back in Tokyo, Hori concentrated on American strategy in the Pacific. Hori considered the decision by President Franklin Roosevelt to intern Japanese-Americans was a blow to the network that Japanese military attaches in Washington had cultivated. Contrary to the contention that Japanese Americans were all loyal to the United States, Hori says there were some who gathered information for Japan prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. The internment of Japanese Americans thus cut Japanese access to information on American industrial capacity and troop movements, according to Hori."

Eizo Hori, "Dai-honei Sanbo no Joho Senki," (Records of Intelligence War by a Staff Officer at the Imperial General Headquarters), Bunshun Bunko, 1996, 348 pages,

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Office of Naval Intelligence memorandum for the Chief of Naval Operations, Feb 12, 1941,"Japanese Espionage Organization in the United States," which suggests that the information therein be brought to the attention of the President and stating that the Japanese government had decided to strengthen its intelligence network by, among other moves to employ "Nisei Japanese and Japanese resident nationals" using extreme caution in doing so.

The Tachibana case (March 1941) about which Peter Irons' wrote in his "Justice at War": "...There was no question that Tachibana headed an espionage ring on the West Coast that enlisted a number of Japanese Americans, both aliens and citizens (sic), nor that the government knew the identities of its members..."

Military Intelligence Div. 336.8, Honolulu, 14 October 1941. "Japanese Ex-Service Men's Organization" which reports on two Japanese ex-military member groups active in the U.S. with 7200 members, stating in part: "...these two organizations have pledged to do sabotage (railroads and harbors)in the states mentioned (California, Washington, Oregon, and Utah) in time of emergency. Similar organizations are in Hawaii. Sixty-nine local units of these two organizations are said to be carrying on activities."

U.S.Army MID Information Bulletin No.6 of Jan.21, 1942,titled "Japanese Espionage," forwarded to Ass't SecWar John J. McCloy by Brig. General Mark J. Clark,then Deputy Chief of Staff, U.S.Army, which, among its conclusions states: "Their espionage net containing Japanese aliens, first and second generation Japanese and other nationals is now thoroughly organized and working underground."

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Not exactly true. Yes, the American government gave them an apology years later, but there was little if nothing in the way of monetary compensation.

Those that had losses could have filed claims under he 1948 Evacation Claims Act which was amended several times throughout the 1950s. Claims up to $100,000 were eligible for hearings and when all was concluded there were only 15 appeals to the settlements offered by the government out of more than 26,000 claims filed. How much fairer could that have been? No other group in the United States got that kind of special treatment for war losses, and there were plenty of losses other than those by the Japanese.

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The fact that so many fought against the japanese under the American flag.

According to Selective Service Special Monograph Number 10 which was published after the war (1953 - This publication covered "Special Groups" who served during WWII and Chapter IX was titled "Japanese Americans." In that chapter on page 122 was the following statement:

"In the continental United States, fewer than 1,500 Japanese Americans volunteered although there were 19,000 citizens of military age within the War Relocation Authority Centers and approximately 4,000 outside the centers."

That would be a total of 23,000 of whom only 7% (1,500)volunteered.

On the other hand, the WRA publication "The Evacuated People" (1946) mentions only 1,208 volunteers from the ten relocation centers (of whom only 805 were actually selected to serve) plus "several hundred" voluteers from outside the centers. Estimating a total of about 1,100 (805 plus an estimated 300 from outside the centers) out of a total 23,000 of military age, comes to 5%.

Thus, the percentage of Japanese-American volunteers was somewhere between 5% and 7% of those of military age in the continental U.S. in and outside the centers.

The other 93% to 95% sat the fighting out.

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The real issue for us are the Nissei who were born in the United States and were American citizens.

Over 90% of Japanese-Americans over age 17 were also citizens of Japan (dual citizens)under Japanese law. Thousands had been educated in Japan. Some having returned to the U.S. holding reserve rank in the Japanese armed forces.

Sure their constitutional rights were violated and it was perfectly legal.

The West Coast combat zones were under military authority at the time and the military called the shots.

Such conditions are not under the same scrutiny as peacetime civil society. The military could have evacuated everybody if they had felt the need to. If you have a problem with designating an area a military combat zone, blame the civilian government. Executive and Legislative provided permission to militarize the West Coast and Judicial approved the decisions - that are still good law to this day.

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berserker,

Then why did the US government apologize?

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Then why did the US government apologize?

Intense political lobbying by an ethnic activist group towards a bunch of politicans 40 years after the fact with little to no knowledge of the history.

Reagan wasn't keen an apologizing. He sat on the bill and reluctantly signed it in 1988 (an election year) against the advice of his own Department of Justice. There is an excellent scholarly piece by Professor Tim Maga desribing the intense lobbying effort directed at President Reagan by Japanese American ethnic activist lobbiests and their political allies. It was a full court press. It was ugly and it's a perfect example of why politicians should not be in the business of legislating revisionist history.

While Maga makes some errors on the history of the evacuation, he does a great job describing the lobbying of the 1980s. Here's a link to his piece.

http://www.bainbridgehistorians.org/page12.html

So now Americans have a piece of legislation, P.L.100-383 (the Japanese Money Bill), that grants millions of taxpayer dollars each year to "re-educate" the American people regarding this history, through the "Civil Liberties Public Education Fund" - the monies of which are managed by Japanese Americans.

Below are the "suggestions" for applications for grant money to use certain teminology in applying for the $$, the strong implication being that if such terminology is not used the grant request will be denied.

"While the CLPEF does not wish to dictate individual choice of vocabulary, it strongly urges grant applicants and the public at large to discontinue the usage of terms such as "relocation," "evacuation," and "assembly centers" as clearly misleading references for this historic event.

The CLPEF concurs with the alternatives suggested by, among others, the National Japanese American Historical Society's (NJAHS) in its publication, Due Process -Americans of Japanese Ancestry and the United States Constitution (1995, NJAHS, p. 48).

Specifically, rather than "evacuation" or "relocation," the following terms for this event are more accurate: "imprisonment, incarceration, internment, detention, confinement or lockup."

Rather than "assembly centers," the term "temporary detention centers" is an accurate alternative; rather than "relocation camps," "internment camps, detention camps, prison camps, or concentration camps" is more accurate; rather than "evacuee," "detainee, internee, inmate or prisoner" is more accurate. This is based on a comparison of the dictionary definitions of such terms and the documented facts of this historic period.

The Board recommends that grant applications, as a starting point, begin to utilize more accurate terms such as the above, keeping in mind that "Continued use of these misnomers would distort history... The choice of term must reflect the fact that the inmates were not free to walk out without getting shot." (Due Process, NJAHS, p. 48.)"

If you're wondering why this history always seems to be in the media, it's because American taxpayer dollars are paying for it. Rather than acknowledge some of the darkers of their own history, Japanese-Americans have chosen to point fingers elsewhere and have been quite successful, really...

...but as Lincoln once said, "You can't fool all of the people all of the time."

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Doesn't also account for the fact that the Japanese AMERICANs that did fight (eg the 442nd) became the MOST DECORATED unit in American military history.

Though I'm sure you're going to find some way to poke holes at that too right?

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Though I'm sure you're going to find some way to poke holes at that too right?

It's not hard to do. See my post above regarding the percentages of Nisei who acutally volunteered to fight. It was only 5%-7%.

As for "most decerated" you should clarify by saying "for size and length of service".

No dispute about the DSCs but the MOHs given 55 years later were affirmative-action-driven. The Army Review Board study instigated by Sen. Akaka applied only to those awaded the DSC who were Americans of Asian or Pacific Island descent (all ethnic Japanese and one token Filipino).

Caucasian awardees of the DSC were excluded from the upgrading study. The mission of the review could not have been more racially based.

Despite its motivation, the study found no evidence of downgrading of MOH recommendations to DSCs as Akaka and his fellow-travelers had hoped to show.

In the words of Army Command Historian, James C. McNaughton in the board's final report on September 30,1998:

"What did we find? ....in the Army awards process we found NO evidence that award recommendations were rejected or downgraded on the basis of race." (Empasis added)

Despite these findings, 22 Japanese-Americans were upgraded from DSCs to MOHs anyway. In so doing, the judgement of WWII combat award officers whose original decisions that DSCs (not MOHs) were appropriate at a time when the facts were fresh and corroborating witnesses alive and on hand to verify them, were politically overruled.

Put another way, Bill Clinton, motivated by legislation from Sen Akaka of Hawaii started handing out medal upgrades like candy canes against the advice of the Pentagan many years and miles away from the battlefied in complete defiance of American Military Tradition.

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See my post above regarding the percentages of Nisei who acutally volunteered to fight. It was only 5%-7%.

This flies in the face of the numbers posted by, among others, the American Veterans Center: "Japanese Americans already in the service, like Joe Ichiuji, were kicked out of the military and joined the 120,000 Japanese Americans who were involuntarily removed from their homes and placed in 10 U.S. Army guarded camps located in America’s wasteland. At the same time, the Military Intelligence Service quietly recruited Japanese Americans to serve as translators, interrogators, communication interceptors, and infantrymen to work behind enemy lines to sabotage their operations. In addition, a small but wise group of government officials obtained President Roosevelt’s approval to form an all-volunteer, segregated Japanese American unit for combat in the European Theater. This unit was called the 442nd Regimental Combat Team. Eventually, 13,000 Japanese Americans served in the 442nd in Europe and 3,000 served in the Asian Pacific Theaters—many in combat units on the front lines.

A total of 33,000 Japanese Americans, men and women, served in the armed forces—many with great distinction."

Source: http://www.americanveteranscenter.org/?page_id=741

In trying to validate your numbers, I came across the following link:

http://m.kitsapsun.com/users/id/220041/comments/?page=2

I don't know if you are regurgitating from that poster, or whether you both are regurgitating from the same source of misinformation. Whichever, it is fairly easy to discern the visceral hatred behind your agenda.

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Berserker I like your style; not a bunch of emotional or political mutterings or comments from poorly written and researched articles, but good, hard facts. Just the way an argument should be, and fantastic job.

While certainly at a glance I would never condone or agree with imprisoning Americans because of their nationality of origin, it's easly to second guess some sixty seven years on about what we should have done, and posture on how horrible it seems. I do think it's a shameful bit of our history, but understandable in some ways.

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Berserker I like your style

Thanks! I'm just a Japanese history buff, that's all.

I do think it's a shameful bit of our history, but understandable in some ways.

I don't know of anyone who has studied the issue and concluded that the so-called "internment" was justified who denies that there was racial prejudice against resident Japanese aliens and Japanese Americans at the time of Pearl Harbor.

But the fact that racism existed doesn't mean that racism was the reason for the "internment". On the contrary, had "racism" been the reason for the "internment" why was it that the thousands of ethnic Japanese not living in the West Coast military areas were not bothered at all?

The reality was that there was an abundance of military intelligence which led to the decision to evacuate/relocate the West Coast Japanese for prudent military reasons. It's all on the record and available for anyone to see. But unfortunately, many present-day critics of the "internment" persist in viewing WWII realities through the prism of their current socio/political agendas. As a result such ideologues have confused race with enemy nationality while remaining otherwise uninformed about the military reasons behind the evacuation decision.

Hence, the accusations of "visceral hatred" and "racism".

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How much fairer could that have been? No other group in the United States got that kind of special treatment for war losses, and there were plenty of losses other than those by the Japanese.

The Berserker: Before you make this type of statement, spend 4 years in Poston Arizona, under barb wires, with machine gun on top watching you 24 hours a day and enjoy 115 degrees temperature without air conditioner and tell me you had a special treatment. Over 110,000 Japanese Americans lost their civil liberties because of their race. They did not commit crime and lost completely their rights.

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Before you make this type of statement, spend 4 years in Poston Arizona, under barb wires, with machine gun on top watching you 24 hours a day and enjoy 115 degrees temperature without air conditioner and tell me you had a special treatment.

He's talking about Poston.

Japanese American Evacuation O.H. 649 Harry Nakamura Interviewed by John McFarlane on May 2, 1971 California State University Fullerton Oral History Program Japanese American Project

McFarlane Were you conscious of the enclosure, the barbed wire and the guards, there at the camp?

Nakamura Well, our camp didn't have that barbed wire. We were able to go to the Colorado River and hiking to the mountains. The only guard I know of that they had was at the main gate. So other than that I don't think it was very strict.

McFarlane Then you didn't see the guards, they weren't very apparent; they weren't driving around watching you?

Nakamura Oh, no.

Besides, how about my family's civil liberties? They got sent to New Guinea, Italy and Okinawa.

Here is an interesting quote from the Tolan Commission on National Defense Migration made by Representative Carl Curtis of Nebraska March 7, 1942.

Mr. Curtis: May I say something right here. I don't believe anything will be gained by assuming that everyone who has to be evacuated is disloyal. These military decisions must be made upon the basis of the best judgement of those military authorities who are in charge. The rest of us will have to comply. It will be tuff, it will be cruel and there will be hardships.

Sherman had an old idea of what was war, but that was a long time ago and it is old-fashioned. But that is going to fall upon every American.

I live in a little town of 1,700 people. One of the car dealers there sells automobiles. He did sell automobiles, radios, washing machines and tires. His Government at Washington says, "You can't sell any of those things. You can't even buy them."

It so happens that that family has two sons in the armed forces and a third one about to go. Well, now, they are not sitting down at their supper table and talking about their liberties and their precious rights to do business and their precious things being taken away. It is one of those things that all of us are just going to have to take on the chin and like it.

(Rep. Curtis made this comment to Japanese American members of the United Citizens Federation. It is amazing from reading the National Defense Migration testimony that the arguments made by the Japanese American Reperations Movement today is nothing more than the same old positions used by similar groups in 1942.)

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Well, our camp didn't have that barbed wire.

Who is Nakamura? WERE YOU THERE? My father was there in Poston, with 17,000 inteness at peak and they had BARB WIRES, he was also in Santa Fe, where German POW's were on the other side with BARB WIRES. Tule Lake had BARB WIRES. Give me facts on no barb wires on these locations.

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Agree with Berserker.

Civil liberties sort of goes out the window during times of war especially duirng WWII. Sometimes, we argue history based on today's ideals too much and because of this, it ends up being too emotional.

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Civil liberties sort of goes out the window during times of war especially duirng WWII. nigelboy;

Does this applies to Italian-Americans and German-Americans too? Why no interment camp for them? U.S. was at war also with Nazi's and Mussolini's army. Civil liberties sort of goes out the window if you are Japanese-Americans only.

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Who is Nakamura? WERE YOU THERE?

Nakamura was there.

My father...he was also in Santa Fe, where German POW's were on the other side with BARB WIRES. Tule Lake had BARB WIRES.

Santa Fe was a real Department of Justice internment camp. Internment camps were run by the Department of Justice and held only enemy aliens who had been deemed security risks and their U.S. citizen family members who were allowed at their choice to stay with them.

Japanese citizens with families were sent to Crystal City, Texas and lived side-by-side with German and Italian families. Single men (or men seperated from their families) were sent to internment camps in other states, such as Santa Fe. Not all enemy aliens were placed in internment camps, and no American citizen was forcefully placed in an internment camp.

If you were interned it was determined that you, a spouse or parent was an enemy alien and a security risk.

Tule Lake was also a Segregation Camp for Japanese American disloyals.

DOJ internment camps and Tule Lake segregation camp had real high-wire fencing. The Relocation Centers had three-strand cattle wire used as perimeter fencing that was rountinely crossed. In the case of Poston, there was little if any perimeter fencing. Obviously Harry Nakamura didn't see any.

So what did your dad do that made him wind up at Santa Fe?

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We see the style of Berserker's presentation of "facts." Find some pseudo-interview that is unsubstantiated and regurgitate it.

Did the Poston internment camp have barbed wire? Historical archives, such as those of Arizona State University, clearly indicate that it did.

From the link below, we see this: "More than 1,100 citizens from the Gila Center served in the U.S. armed forces. Twenty-three of them never made it home. And out of more than 1,200 soldiers who served from the Poston Center , 24 were killed in action."

Source: http://www.azpbs.org/arizonastories/seasontwo/internmentcamps.htm

So, out of two relocation centers, we have more than 2,300 internees who served in the armed forces. Earlier, you claimed that only 1,500 volunteered out of ALL the camps.

When I speak of visceral hatred, it means the shameless ability to spout falsehoods about other people, especially in the manner you do about diminishing their hardships, contributions and sacrifices.

To sfjp330: I invite you to look at Berserker's earlier post and compare it with the link below. It's simply a cut and paste of unfounded misinformation.

http://m.kitsapsun.com/users/id/220041/comments/?page=2

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It's not difficult to pictures of barb wire around the camps

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/specials/pearlharbor60/.photos/4ajamain.gif

http://library.thinkquest.org/trio/TTQ04160/Complete%20Site/aftermath/000250.jpg

http://www.colostate.edu/Orgs/TuleLake/fence.jpg

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/images/806.jpg

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Does this applies to Italian-Americans and German-Americans too? Why no interment camp for them? U.S. was at war also with Nazi's and Mussolini's army. Civil liberties sort of goes out the window if you are Japanese-Americans only.

Internees included 10,995 Germans, 16,849 Japanese (5,589 who voluntarily renounced U.S. citizenship and became enemy aliens), 3,278 Italians, 52 Hungarians, 25 Romanians, 5 Bulgarians, and 161 classified as “other".

It should be noted that all 16,849 Japanese enemy-aliens including the 5,589 that renounced American citizenship were eligible for an apology from the United States and a $20,000 reparations payment while the Germans, Italians, Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians received nothing.

German Americans on the east coast and throughout the country were arrested, interned, and in some cases deported. Many German Americans sat, worked, played and went to school in the same camps as their Japanese American counterparts.

Furthermore even before the first ethnic Japanese was interned, 600,000 Italian Americans and 300,000 German Americans were deprived of their civil liberties when they (all persons, male and female, age 14 and older) were required to register as "Alien Enemies." This registration entailed photographing, fingerprinting and the issuance of identification cards which the Alien Enemies had to have on their possession at all times. In addition they were forbidden: to fly; to leave their neighborhoods; to possess cameras, short-wave radio receivers, and firearms. Finally, these persons were required to report any change of employment or address to the Department of Justice.

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The Tolan committee looked very closely at the need to evacuate Germans and Italians from the West Coast combat zones, also.

It was learned that the vast majority of the German enemy aliens were Jewish Germans who had escaped Hitler's oppression starting in the early 1930's. The Italians were by and large illiterate farmers who had never gotten around to applying for citizenship.

After careful thought and discussion it was decided these people were not a threat to the West Coast combat zones to the extent the ethnic Japanese were a threat.

To argue there must be some kind of proportionality between Germans, Italians and Japanese because they both happen to be the enemy without acknowledging the extent of the security threat from ethnic Germans compared to ethnic Japanese didn't make a whole lot of sense to America's political and military leaders in a time of total war when America was losing the war.

Up until mid-March 1942 plans were in place to evacuate Germans and Italians also, but it was considered overkill. The Japanese were the threat and that's a tuff pill for you to swallow but the evidence proves it.

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...some pseudo-interview that is unsubstantiated and regurgitate it.

Pseudo-interview? Here's the source from Cal State, Fullerton.

Japanese American Evacuation O.H. 649 Harry Nakamura Interviewed by John McFarlane on May 2, 1971 California State University Fullerton Oral History Program Japanese American Project

To sfjp330: I invite you to look at Berserker's earlier post and compare it with the link below. It's simply a cut and paste of unfounded misinformation.

Tell me what's unfounded.

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The Japanese were the threat and that's a tuff pill for you to swallow but the evidence proves it.

There is no factual evidence, any more than Italian-Americans and German-Americans. This was more of a propanganda which you are gullable to.

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http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/specials/pearlharbor60/.photos/4ajamain.gif

This pic is of Manzanar. You'll notice it's not to hard to cross the cattle wire because the boys are outside the wire.

http://library.thinkquest.org/trio/TTQ04160/Complete%20Site/aftermath/000250.jpg

They don't say where this pic is from, but I suspect a DOJ internment camp.

http://www.colostate.edu/Orgs/TuleLake/fence.jpg

Tule Lake Segregation Center for Japanese American disloyals waiting to sent to be deported.

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/images/806.jpg

Santa Anita Race Track used as an assembly center and house American GIs after the Japanese were evacuated. The fencing was there before it was used as an Assembly Center.

The best example of what the fencing was like at Relocation Centers was the first pic of Manzanar.

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From the link below, we see this: "More than 1,100 citizens from the Gila Center served in the U.S. armed forces. Twenty-three of them never made it home. And out of more than 1,200 soldiers who served from the Poston Center , 24 were killed in action."

The 16,000 Nisei vets were the exception and not the rule. They deserve gratitude and recognition, but that doesn't negate the fact they were minorities in their own community.

Here are some more numbers for you.

The 7,200 members was the Zaibei Heimusai [Japanese Military Service Men League] described in the U.S. Army Military Intelligence Division's report No. 336.8 of October 14, 1941 which stated:

"Each member gives...to the Japanese War Fund and others engaged in intelligence activities. This includes military age Nisei as well as Japanese aliens. Y650,000.00 were sent to Japan as of May 1941."

In addition the report tells of the Imperal Comradship Society and states that the two organizations "have pledged to do sabotage (railroads and harbors) in time of emergency..."

The report said that there were over 60 local chapters of these two organizations.

Japanese-American males of military age (approx 19,000) in the relocation centers of whom more than 25% refused to swear an unqualified oath of allegiance to the U.S.

According to War Relocation Authority records, 13,000 applications renouncing their U.S. citizenship and requesting expatriation to Japan were filed by or on behalf of Japanese-Americans during World War II. Over 5,000 had been processed by the end of the war.

It is also credibly estimated that between 5,000 and 7,000 (of approx 15-20,000 Nisei in Japan at the time of Pearl Harbor) actually served in the Japanese armed forces fighting against the U.S. during WWII.

Two members of the Japanese surrender team who flew to Manila to arrange the formalities connected with the Japanese surrender were Nisei--one, George Shuichi Mizota, was secretary to Japanese Navy Minister Misumasa Yohnai. Five Nisei went down with the Japanese battleship "Yamato" and two other Nisei were aboard the cruiser "Yahagi" which also went down, one of the Nisei survived.

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There is no factual evidence, any more than Italian-Americans and German-Americans. This was more of a propanganda which you are gullable to

Well, there is plenty of evidence, much of which I have already posted here. Why did your Dad wind up at Santa Fe?

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Tell me what's unfounded.

Let's take this regurgitated statement by you, for starters: "On the other hand, the WRA publication "The Evacuated People" (1946) mentions only 1,208 volunteers from the ten relocation centers (of whom only 805 were actually selected to serve) plus "several hundred" voluteers from outside the centers. Estimating a total of about 1,100 (805 plus an estimated 300 from outside the centers) out of a total 23,000 of military age, comes to 5%."

Wrong. On page 145 of The Evacuated People, there is a table -- Table 49 -- that shows the number of Japanese-Americans who enlisted or who were called to service. There is a note at the head of that table which says the following:

"This report is limited to those WRA center residents and relocated evacuees visiting at centers who were inducted directly from centers and excludes (1) evacuees inducted prior to evacuation, (2) relocated evacuees volunteering and called by Selected Service who did not return to a center for induction, and (3) evacuees volunteering and called by Selective Service at centers who relocated prior to induction. (War Department Releases indicate that between November 1940 and December 1945, 25,778 Japanese Americans were inducted into the Armed Forces -- 438 officers and 25,340 enlisted men -- with an estimated 13,528 from the mainland and 12,250 from Hawaii.)

So much for your claim of 95% of the Japanese sitting out the war.

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Correction on my last sentence:

So much for your claim of 95% of the Americans of Japanese descent sitting out the war.

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(War Department Releases indicate that between November 1940 and December 1945, 25,778 Japanese Americans were inducted into the Armed Forces -- 438 officers and 25,340 enlisted men -- with an estimated 13,528 from the mainland and 12,250 from Hawaii.)

We weren't at war with Japan in November of 1940 nor December of 1945.

Those Nisei in the service before Pearl Harbor were, with few exceptions, discharged at the beginning of the war. Those who entered service after August 1945 did not serve during the period of hostilities between Japan and the U.S.

Accordingly, the 25,778 figure you cite does not fairly represent the total number of Nisei who served in the U.S.armed forces during the war with Japan.

So much for your claim of 95% of the Japanese sitting out the war.

The document can be read here.

http://www.internmentarchives.com/showdoc.php?docid=00002&search_id=44247

The intial volunteer rates from the Relocation Centers are correct. You think 95% percent sitting out the war is a stretch, then let's say 95% sitting out the war until January 30, 1944 and the vast majority sitting out the war.

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"Civil liberties sort of go out of the window during times of war"

WOW just WOW. Famous last words.

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Those Nisei in the service before Pearl Harbor were, with few exceptions, discharged at the beginning of the war. Those who entered service after August 1945 did not serve during the period of hostilities between Japan and the U.S. Accordingly, the 25,778 figure you cite...

That statement might actually mean something if you had numbers to back it up. How many Nisei were discharged at the beginning of the war? How many entered the service after August of 1945?

You have asserted that the 25,778 is not a "fair representation." There is no way of knowing that without an accurate tally. If the number represents more than 75-80% of the Japanese-Americans who entered the service between the start of the war and August 1945, then I believe anyone could claim that it is a fair representation. Why not back up your assertion?

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There is no way of knowing that without an accurate tally.

Sure there is. Go down to L.A.'s little Tokyo and count the names on the memorial. I already provided the numbers for those who served during hostilities in a post above. The number is approx 16,000. Why not go back and read it.

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WOW just WOW. Famous last words.

I don't know where you're from but the temporary suspension of civil liberties in a time of war is nothing new to American history.

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The Berserker;

Manzanar, which you claimed did not have barb wire fence, is 300 miles from Colorado river. Nakamura must've walked along way to be there, since Poston, which is closest to this river did have barb wire fence.

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The Japanese were the threat and that's a tuff pill for you to swallow but the evidence proves it.

In a Congressional inquiry in late '80's this prove not to be the case. The Congress approved a reparation of $20,000 and apology letter from President was presented. This was similar to class action lawsuit against the U.S. govenment and the Japanese-Amercian won. What is your nationality are you?

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Sure there is. Go down to L.A.'s little Tokyo and count the names on the memorial. I already provided the numbers for those who served during hostilities in a post above. The number is approx 16,000.

The memorial does not count all Japanese Americans who served during WWII, and so using that number for the purposes you are trying to sell here is deceptive.

The site, Americans of Japanese Ancestry WWII Memorial Alliance lists well over 18,000 names. (www.ajawarvets.org)

The source listed below goes into greater detail of the sources available to track down many thousands more of Japanese Americans who served during WWII. Accordingly, the 25,000+ number cited above is a fair representation -- MUCH fairer than your claim that 95% of eligible Japanese Americans sat out the war.

What other reason could there be for such willful misrepresentation than sheer prejudice and hatred?

http://charlotte.neuro.brown.edu/~jamesmcilwain/ABOUT%20SOLDIERS%20AND%20THE%20CAMPS.pdf

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Manzanar, which you claimed did not have barb wire fence

No, I said the first pic was of Manzanar and the boys are standing next to the perimeter fencing OUTSIDE THE FENCE. It was cattle wire fencing used as perimeter fencing and was routinely crossed which is why the boys were standing outside of it.

...since Poston, which is closest to this river did have barb wire fence.

Not according to Harry Nakamura.

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In a Congressional inquiry in late '80's this prove not to be the case. The Congress approved a reparation of $20,000 and apology letter from President was presented.

The Commission on the Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians submitted its much flawed report "Personal Justice Denied" in the early 1980's. The Money Bill was signed into law by Reagan in August 1988, and election year. I posted a link explaining this above, too.

Here's a few more things to consider when talking about the CWRIC.

Consider that of the nine commission members, six were biased in favor of reparations. Ishmail Gromoff and William Marutani, relocatees themselves, sat in judgment of their own cases. Arthur Goldberg and Joan Bernstein made sympathetic, pro-reparation statements publicly before hearings even began. Arthur Fleming had worked closely with the JACL (he was a keynote speaker at its Portland convention in the '70s). Robert Drinan was a co-sponsor of the bill establishing the commission.

Consider that notices of when and where hearings were to be held were not made known to the general, non-Japanese public.

Consider that witnesses who gave testimony were not sworn to tell the truth.

Consider that witnesses who were pro-reparation were carefully coached in their testimony in "mock hearings" beforehand.

Consider that witnesses against reparation were harassed and drowned out by foot-stomping Japanese claques, that the commission members themselves ridiculed and badgered these same witnesses.

Consider that not one historian was asked to testify before the commission, that intelligence reports and position papers contrary to reparations were deliberately ignored.

Consider that as a result of the above, the United States Department of Justice objected strongly to the findings of the commission.

Reagan waffled on signing the bill until near the end of his term in an election year and then did so for political reasons.

As stated above, the bill is a product of intense lobbying by an ethnic activist group and when then signed into law for political considerations - a good example of why politicians shouldn't be in the business of legislating history.

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The memorial does not count all Japanese Americans who served during WWII, and so using that number for the purposes you are trying to sell here is deceptive.

So you think the Nisei vets would leave names off their own memorial?

The site, Americans of Japanese Ancestry WWII Memorial Alliance lists well over 18,000 names.

They probably say Nisei vets liberated Dachau, too. I'm sure there are a number of sites with incorrect information regarding the history of Nisei vets. I've debated the producers of some of them and find they're all getting taxpayer money to mis-lead the American people via bogus websites, media programs, media fluff pieces and especially bogus school curriculums which I find to be insidious.

What other reason could there be for such willful misrepresentation than sheer prejudice and hatred?

How about over 20 years knowledge regarding this history and a plethora of primary documents on the subject. Hurling accusations of prejudice and hatred doesn't give you a whole lot of credibility either. Try debating subject instead.

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Here's another interesting piece of history regarding dual citizen Japanese-Americans and the the Selective Service reinstitution of January, 1944.

Selective Service Monograph No. 10 (1953)has this to say about dual citizen Japanese Americans:

(With)... "The reinstitution of Selective Service for Japanese Americans in January 1944...the request for repatriation or expatriation (to Japan)showed a marked increase. These were mainly from men of military age who used dual citizenship as a way of evading service both here and in Japan. Most of these were Kibei...they claimed exemption as Japanese citizens."

And another:

Over 9,000 Purple Hearts are commonly claimed for the just over 8,000-man 100/442d Regimental Combat Team by latter-day activists, but according to the Washington Infantry Journal Press 18 months after war's end, the true number was only 3,600.

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he Commission on the Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians submitted its much flawed report "Personal Justice Denied" in the early 1980's. The Money Bill was signed into law by Reagan in August 1988, and election year. I posted a link explaining this above, too. Here's a few more things to consider when talking about the CWRIC. Consider that of the nine commission members, six were biased in favor of reparations. Ishmail Gromoff and William Marutani, relocatees themselves, sat in judgment of their own cases. Arthur Goldberg and Joan Bernstein made sympathetic, pro-reparation statements publicly before hearings even began. Arthur Fleming had worked closely with the JACL (he was a keynote speaker at its Portland convention in the '70s). Robert Drinan was a co-sponsor of the bill establishing the commission. Consider that notices of when and where hearings were to be held were not made known to the general, non-Japanese public. Consider that witnesses who gave testimony were not sworn to tell the truth. Consider that witnesses who were pro-reparation were carefully coached in their testimony in "mock hearings" beforehand. Consider that witnesses against reparation were harassed and drowned out by foot-stomping Japanese claques, that the commission members themselves ridiculed and badgered these same witnesses. Consider that not one historian was asked to testify before the commission, that intelligence reports and position papers contrary to reparations were deliberately ignored. Consider that as a result of the above, the United States Department of Justice objected strongly to the findings of the commission. Reagan waffled on signing the bill until near the end of his term in an election year and then did so for political reasons. As stated above, the bill is a product of intense lobbying by an ethnic activist group and when then signed into law for political considerations - a good example of why politicians shouldn't be in the business of legislating history

So what? Every bill has pros and cons and this is not a exception. However, this bill passed and reparation was paid and apology from the U.S. Government is a fact. The government acknowledge this mistake, regardless of what you think.

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The Japanese were the threat and that's a tuff pill for you to swallow but the evidence proves it.

Berserker;

The U.S. govenment actions were based on "race predjudice, war hysteria and a failure of politcal leadership for putting them in interment camp.

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Just an intriguing scenario (nothing more): if Japan was winning WW2 and about to invade the lower 48 US states, would the desperate US let the Japanese-Americans fight, and would they fight given what's happened to them?

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Berserker:

Let's take the assertion you appear to be making above, but don't have the actual guts to make it: "Camp Poston was not fenced in." Your proof: An interview with one former internee -- a kid at the time -- who said many decades later that he didn't recall a fence. Of course, from there, it's an easy slide for you to appear to assert that the camps weren't as bad as thousands have described them to be. All on the obviously-flawed recollection of a person from a community that you otherwise find no problem casting aspersions onto on most other points.

Yes, and let's ignore the many government documents that assert that, in fact, all of Camp Poston was fenced in. The memorial at the Poston site mentions "barbed wire." But a Mr. Harry Nakamura doesn't recall it and therefore it must be that there was one camp for enemy aliens that had no fence around it at all! There is a term to describe a person who tries to make his case on that kind of conjecture, but "history buff" isn't it.

Your presentation of data smacks of the average holocaust-denier and conspiracy mongerer. It is no wonder why you'd take the first opportunity to slither out once folks became wise to you.

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An interview with one former internee -- a kid at the time -- who said many decades later that he didn't recall a fence.

A couple questions for you.

How do you know he was a kid at the time? The interview was in 1971, long before this history became politicized. Why is that any less credible than what you are saying today? Where does he say he doesn't "recall" a fence? This is the actual quote:

Nakamura:

"Well, our camp didn't have that barbed wire. We were able to go to the Colorado River and hiking to the mountains. The only guard I know of that they had was at the main gate. So other than that I don't think it was very strict."

It's too bad you have to resort to putting words in my mouth I did not say and hurl personal insults, but if that's all you can do so support your side of the debate...

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All on the obviously-flawed recollection of a person from a community that you otherwise find no problem casting aspersions onto on most other points.

Here's another quote. It's funny the people who were there aren't nearly as fanatical about it as there offspring today.

When Japanese naval forces struck Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, I was studying English at a private school in San Francisco, the Drew School. I had come to America six months earlier as a student, not knowing, of course, that war was coming.

The Western Defense Command, headquartered in the Presidio of San Francisco, declared a 75-mile coastal strip from Washington through Oregon to California as Military Zone Number 1, from which all persons of Japanese ancestry were to be evacuated before the end of March 1942. I moved out of this zone to Visalia in the San Joaquin Valley. In a few months, however, the Army ordered the evacuation of all persons of Japanese ancestry from all of California, the western half of Oregon and Washington and from the lower one-third of Arizona.

If I had gone to, for instance, the Middle West during the very first months of 1942, I would not have been affected by the Army policy. Along with people from Visalia and vicinities, therefore, I went to a war relocation center at Poston, Arizona, which had been hastily built in the desert. The summer I spent there was the hottest I had ever experienced. But food in the mess hall was plentiful. School classes were provided for youngsters of all grades. Some Japanese residents formed a kabuki group to stage classical numbers.

My intellectual life in the Arizona desert was not a total loss - I was able to improve my English because I taught Japanese to Nisei residents by using English as medium of instruction.

From the very beginning of this camp life, I did not expect I would have to live in the desert until the end of the war, which I am sure no one knew when it would end. Eight months later, the U.S. Government announced that any able-bodied person, citizen or alien, could leave a relocation center for gainful employment outside. I was one of the first to take advantage of this new policy.

When I went around the barracks to say good-bye to older campmates, one of them was puzzled and said, "Why do you leave here? This is the best (safest) place."I laughed and said I could not afford to sit idle there because I had come to America to study in school.

I began my freshman year in June 1943 in Chicago and completed requirements for a B.A. degree from Carleton College in January 1946. I also earned an M.A. from the University of Chicago before returning to Japan in 1948.

In Japan, I worked with The Japan Times, the oldest and largest English language daily newspaper published in Japan, for thirty-three years. I ended my career there as its Editor-in-Chief and Executive Director.

Currently, I am professor of "media English" and International Communication at Yachiyo International University.

In 1991, Kodansha Publishers, (Tokyo & New York) published my book titled, An Enemy Among Friends

Kiyoaki Murata October 7, 1994 Tokyo, Japan

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Of course, from there, it's an easy slide for you to appear to assert that the camps weren't as bad as thousands have described them to be.

From the outset the WRA's principal objective was to resettle evacuees and get them out of the camps as soon as possible for locations anywhere in the U.S. but in the military zones from which they had been evacuated. Anyone (alien or citizen)could apply to leave the relocation centers and would be approved if he or she met the following criteria: (1) had a job offer or other means of support waiting on the outside, (2) agreed to keep the WRA informed of any changes of jobs or addresses, (3)had a clean record both at the center and with the FBI as well as no record of disloyalty to the U.S. with a military intelligence agency, and (4)there existed reasonable evidence that the person's presence would be acceptable to the community in which he proposed to make his or her new home.

Ironically, the announcement of the resettlement program in September of 1942 brought howls of protest from the evacuees "who saw it as an attempt on the part of the government to evade responsibility of caring for them by turning them into a hostile Caucasian world." ["Democracy on Trial,"-Page Smith, award-winning historian and professor at UC/Santa Cruz.

The WRA persisted in encouraging (practically begging) the evacuees to apply to leave the centers. Counselers were dispatched to assure them of good treatment on the outside, monetary incentives to leave were offered, WRA resettlement field offices were set up in Chicago, Cleveland, Minneapolis, Des Moines, Milwaukee, New York, and other cities to pave the way for employment of the evacuees. But still many evacuees, particularly the Issei, resisted leaving the camps. In a letter dated February 10, 1981(a copy of which I have), former WRA head,Dillon Myer, responded to a researcher's question in the following words: "The WRA did its very best to get people to leave the camps, and of course many thousands did leave...but many of the older aliens refused to leave... because they felt more secure in the camps."

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...that you otherwise find no problem casting aspersions onto on most other points.

Telling it like is was is not "casting aspirations". You're just in denial that there was plenty of evidence indicating fifth-column activity amongst the West Coast Japanese community.

The "many Japan sympathizers" among the Issei were those described by the Los Angeles office of the Office of Naval Intelligence at the time as those who "might well do surreptitious observation work for Japanese interests if given a convenient opportunity." Of course nobody really knew how many there were or the identity of most of them. What was known was that the numbers were large and that their presence at large in the military areas of the West Coast would be at considerable security risk to the nation.

In a nutshell, that's it! Whether you can accept the harsh reality of this history or not is something you and Japanese-Americans in general are going to have to deal with. Blaming other Americans (including our political and military leaders during WW2) as "hysterial racists" has done more to damage the reputation of Japanese-Americans than Pearl Harbor ever did.

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So you think the Nisei vets would leave names off their own memorial?

According to the people who serve to provide information about the memorial, there are at least 8,000 Japanese-Americans who served during WWII whose names are not on the memorial for the simple reason that they did not serve overseas.

I will return to my previous statement: The memorial does not count all Japanese Americans who served during WWII, and so using that number for the purposes you are trying to sell here is deceptive. 95% of eligible Japanese Americans did not "sit out" the war.

This is a clear example of the way you assemble and then dissemble your "facts," and which indicates in you a complete disrespect for history and the subjects of it. Since you won't admit that you are as wrong as can be about this, we must look to the motiviations that drive you to spread untruths about your fellow human beings.

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How do you know he was a kid at the time?

In the same interview, Harry Nakamura says this, in response to the question: "Could I get you to express your feelings about the relocation during the war? I know you were young. We've gone through your experiences in this interview. Would you care to state just your own personal feelings toward it?"

Answer: Yes. I was about thirteen at the time...

A kid.

If you go throught the entire interview and note the number of times he says he doesn't recall things, or can't give exact years for major events in his life, one begins to wonder how reliable the minute details of his adolescent recollections are.

As for the "fence," plenty of documents show that there was a fence that was built to encircle Camp Poston. Additional research is underway. Meanwhile, here are some additional words from Harry Nakamura:

Q: Are there any questions that I haven't asked, anything more that you would like to elaborate on?

A: Yes, well, perhaps the part on how those young people went into the service. Even to this day, some people ask me, "You mean they put you in camp, and yet you guys went in the service?" Well, that was pride perhaps, because they all went in, and they were one of the most decorated outfits there was, the Japanese outfit, the 442nd. I believe it was because of pride, because the Isseis and Niseis, especially the Isseis, have got a lot of pride.

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Here's another quote.

If there is a point behind your long-winded post about Mr. Murata, why not come out and state it? I don't see how it relates to anything regarding your aspersions on the percentage of Japanese Americans who "sat out the war" or whether or not Camp Poston had a fence around it.

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According to the people who serve to provide information about the memorial....

Given how this history has been distorted over the last 25 years, I can only imagine who those people are. Can you tell me when, where and with whom these extra 8,000 served other than overseas?

I have a roster of the 100/442nd with some 8,500 names on it. Aside from the 100/442d just about the only other outfit (with a few exceptions involving only a few people) they could have served in was the Military Intelligence Service in the Pacific. A total of about 3,500 served there. That's 12,000. Allowing for another 4,000 in miscellaneous units, we reach the grand total of 16,000, the number on the memorial.

If your source uses just the statement "during World War II" these figures aren't even close to the lesser numbers who were inducted, can be accounted for, and actually served during the period the U.S. was engaged in hostilities with the Empire of Japan, i.e., from Dec 7, 1941 to August 15, 1945.

Provide the official records for the extra 8,000.

...95% of eligible Japanese Americans did not "sit out" the war.

Okay I'll rephrase to say, 95% sat out the war until January 30, 1944. The fact the United States was winning the war by this time can be an after-thought.

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This is a clear example of the way you assemble and then dissemble your "facts," and which indicates in you a complete disrespect for history and the subjects of it. Since you won't admit that you are as wrong as can be about this, we must look to the motiviations that drive you to spread untruths about your fellow human beings.

Hey, I'm open-minded and just here to learn more. Hurling personal insults isn't helping your position at all. Hard facts will.

Here's and example of hard facts:

1.Office of Naval Intelligence memorandum for the Chief of Naval Operations, Feb 12, 1941,"Japanese Espionage Organization in the United States," which suggests that the information therein be brought to the attention of the President and stating that the Japanese government had decided to strengthen its intelligence network by, among other moves to employ "Nisei Japanese and Japanese resident nationals" using extreme caution in doing so.

The Tachibana case (March 1941) about which Peter Irons' wrote in his "Justice at War": "...There was no question that Tachibana headed an espionage ring on the West Coast that enlisted a number of Japanese Americans, both aliens and citizens (sic), nor that the government knew the identities of its members..."

Military Intelligence Div. 336.8, Honolulu, 14 October 1941. "Japanese Ex-Service Men's Organization" which reports on two Japanese ex-military member groups active in the U.S. with 7200 members, stating in part: "...these two organizations have pledged to do sabotage (railroads and harbors)in the states mentioned (California, Washington, Oregon, and Utah) in time of emergency. Similar organizations are in Hawaii. Sixty-nine local units of these two organizations are said to be carrying on activities."

U.S.Army MID Information Bulletin No.6 of Jan.21, 1942,titled "Japanese Espionage," forwarded to Ass't SecWar John J. McCloy by Brig. General Mark J. Clark,then Deputy Chief of Staff, U.S.Army, which, among its conclusions states: "Their espionage net containing Japanese aliens, first and second generation Japanese and other nationals is now thoroughly organized and working underground."
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...which indicates in you a complete disrespect for history and the subjects of it.

Right, accusing America's political and military leaders (most of whom were already dead) who took on two of the greatest armies to scourge the earth since Genghis Khan - accusing them of being "hysterical racists that lacked political will". That's real respectful.

The West Coast evacuation of ethnic Japanese was a minor chapter in the history of WW2 that's been completely blown out of proportion by a bunch of ethnic activists.

In the United States, Japanese-Americans never had a repuation of being a "whiny minority" up until around 1982. It's shameful they have that reputation now.

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Why are you offering up these completely irrelevant points with regards to your earlier statements -- now proven wrong -- about the numbers of Japanese-Americans who actually served during WWII?

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accusing them of being "hysterical racists that lacked political will". That's real respectful.

Nowhere did I personally make such an accusation.

However, one person you referred to earlier, Dillon Myers, was of the opinion that some of the key leaders of the forced internment of Japanese were acting out of racist feelings. General DeWitt for one. As quoted later in life: "Myer later found fault with the army's rationale for mass evacuation, stating that General DeWitt's reasons 'make out a case of racial bias' (Myer, Uprooted Americans, p.285). But in 1943 he (Myer) advanced those selfsame reasons as his own; in 1971, he was attempting to distance himself from the racism he belatedly acknowledged in DeWitt."

This is significant in that it serves to demonstrate the latent racism that still exists in American society towards Japanese Americans and their history. The internment might seem to be a "minor chapter" to those whose tendencies run to the kind that Myer described in DeWitt, but it wasn't a minor event to the thousands who were personally affected by it.

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Why are you offering up these completely irrelevant points with regards to your earlier statements -- now proven wrong -- about the numbers of Japanese-Americans who actually served during WWII?

Couldn't cite a source, could you? I didn't think so. I'm offering up all kinds of information, maybe another poster will challenge me or at least comment on it.

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Provide the official records for the extra 8,000.

You have access to the same sources as I do, including the people who manage the names on the memorial.

I can only imagine who "those people" are.

Those people are the ones who you earlier attempted to convey as the credible source for the 16,000 number on the memorial.

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General DeWitt for one.

DeWitt certainly is one of the favorite whipping boys of the Japanese-American reperations activists.

A review of Chapter V, "Japanese Evacuation From the West Coast" of Conn, Englemman, and Fairchild's "Guarding the United States and its Outposts." [Center of Military History, U.S.Army] is suggested.

As Conn clearly shows, DeWitt, up to his final recommendation to the War Department on 13 Feb. 1942, (prior to FDR's E.O.9066) was consistent in his opposition to the detention of American citizens.

His final recommendation to the War Department was that "citizen evacuees would either ACCEPT INTERNMENT VOLUNTARILY OR RELOCATE THEMSELVES with such assistance as state and federal agencies might offer." (Emphasis mine)

In his final recommentation, DeWitt also called for the inclusion of ALL enemy aliens (German and Italians as well as Japanese) in any evacuation decided.

The evacuation decision was made in the War Department and instructions to DeWitt for instrumentation thereof differed markedly from DeWitt's final recommendation in a number of respects. But the fact is that from early on to his final recommendation prior to the Evacuation Decision made in Washington, DeWitt was consistent in his opposition to the detainment of American citizens of Japanese descent. As a good soldier, however, he bowed to the orders of his superiors and carried out their instructions to the best of his ability.

That won't stop the activists from villifying another dead soldier to suit their own ends though, will it?

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This is significant in that it serves to demonstrate the latent racism that still exists in American society towards Japanese Americans and their history.

Only when they lie about their history.

Why not address the HARD FACTS I provided regarding fifth column activity within the Japanese West Coast community. Rather than ignore it, what do you have to say about it?

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DeWitt certainly is one of the favorite whipping boys of the Japanese-American reperations activists.

The case for the latent racist tendencies of DeWitt was made by noneother than the person you presented as a credible source of the internment, Dillon S. Myer, a man who had a lot of personal dealings with DeWitt. Are you now claiming that Myer was a Japanese-American?

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Why not address the HARD FACTS I provided regarding fifth column activity within the Japanese West Coast community. Rather than ignore it, what do you have to say about it?

It has absolutely nothing to do with the conditions faced by the Mr. Matsumoto of this story, and the conditions that he and thousands of Japanese Americans faced.

When Mr. Matsumoto tells of U.S. schools that would not accept Japanese Americans, nobody believes the reasons were because of national security.

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It's interesting how tangential facts like 'whether the fencing was barbed or not' or 'Japanese did worse (an argument that implies the poster does not recognise Nikkei-Americans as Americans)' always play a role in denial and mitigation rants against great injustices in history.

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Why not address the HARD FACTS I provided regarding fifth column activity within the Japanese West Coast community. Rather than ignore it, what do you have to say about it?

So is the citation dubious, un-confirmed assertions is HARD FACT in JT?

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Why not address the HARD FACTS I provided regarding fifth column activity within the Japanese West Coast community. Rather than ignore it, what do you have to say about it?

So is the citation of dubious, un-confirmed assertions is readily accepted as HARD FACT in the JT community?

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Are you now claiming that Myer was a Japanese-American?

Myer was a civilian leader of the civilian WRA without access to military intelligence. I haven't read the quote you cite in its entirety, but it doesn't sound like he was aware of DeWitt's position on the evacuation, does it? How do you know he had a lot of personal dealings with DeWitt?

How do you reconcile the military intelligence indicating fifth column activity? You ignored it again.

When Mr. Matsumoto tells of U.S. schools that would not accept Japanese Americans, nobody believes the reasons were because of national security.

Nonsense. 4,300 Japanese-Americans left the Relocation Centers to attend colleges at taxpayer expense in programs set up by fellow Americans. You obviously didn't read the article very carefully.

So is the citation of dubious, un-confirmed assertions is readily accepted as HARD FACT in the JT community?

Yea, JT community! Are military intelligence reports from WW2 really considered "dubious un-confirmed assertions" by the JT community?

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That's what they came back to, from America.

In other words Americans of Japanese descent have little or no opportunity for dignity in either country.

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In other words Americans of Japanese descent have little or no opportunity for dignity in either country.

War isn't about dignity is it, sonny.

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It's interesting how tangential facts like 'whether the fencing was barbed or not' or 'Japanese did worse (an argument that implies the poster does not recognise Nikkei-Americans as Americans)' always play a role in denial and mitigation rants against great injustices in history.

People who like to be precise can differentiate between fencing used as a perimeter and fencing used to fence people in.

An as I said before and you didn't read, the Issei were not Americans and 90% of Nisei over 17 were dual Japanese-Americans.

Here's some advice. Don't hold strong opinions on topics you know little about.

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Before Pearl Harbor, U.S. codebreakers were intercepting Japanese consular message which revealed espionage involving resident Japanee nationals and Japanese Americans. Numerous Japanese patriotic societies on the west coast were supporting the Japanese war effort in East Asia by collecting money and sending it to Japan.

Because of such activities by persons of Japanese ancestry in America, when the Japanese struck Pearl Harbor there were urgent security reasons for separating the loyal from the disloyal pesons of Japanese descent. This could not be done overnight so evacuation and relocation of such persons from military zones on the west coast was considered a necessity until screening could determine their status..

Of the so-called "internees," two-thirds of the ADULTS were not U.S. citizens but were Japanese nationals, enemy aliens subject to detention under long-standfing law. The American-born children of such enemy aliens were kept with them to keep families together. Their average age at the time was 15 years. However most of those over age 17 among them were also citizens of Japan (dual citizens). Thousands of these young Japanese-Americans had been educated in Japan, returning to the U.S. more Japanese than American, some as members of the Japanese military reserves. .

The above only scratches the surface of this complex wartime situation. There is much, much, more. There exists an abundance of now-declassified documents supporting the military justification for the internment for the legitimate researcher to exam. Unfortunately some who do so, because of the conventionl wisdom and a pre-disposed politically-correct agenda, ignore or distort the wartime government's side of the story. American leaders may have been wrong about some things (like Battan) but they were certainly right to evacuate persons of Japanese ancestry from the West Coast after Pearl Harbor and their memory should not be dishonored for doing so.

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I agree with Berserker, it was enough that some Japanese-Americans had mixed loyalties that warrants the internment of all Nikkei. We must always remember that if the Euro-American institutions that make America great should be in peril, then the liquidation of Asiatic ethnic interests in the US is a small price to pay for the continuation of mainstream US society.

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...the liquidation of Asiatic ethnic interests..

Certainly the temporary suspension of civil liberties in a time of total war of any interest whose national origin is at war with our country. Chinese and Filipinos weren't affected at all - or Japanese outside the combat zones for that matter. Germans, Italians and Japanese were.

Much of the concern regarding ethnic Japanese located in the West Coast Combat Zones stemmed from known fifth column activity during the Pearl Harbor attack by Japanese locals there. Local Japanese support for the war in China (support that made a 180 degree turn after Pearl Harbor) was another reason.

A federal Alien Custodian of Property was put into place to ensure alien property was protected. This was a top priority before the evacuation even occured.

A large percentage of white Americans in the public and private sector opposed evacuation because the Japanese were superior at intensive truck farming and these crops would be needed for the war effort. In the private sector much opposition came from those in the agriculture business, including produce shippers, packing houses, fertilizer companies and white Americans who had leased farmland to the Japanese. To state all white Americans were running around hysterically hurling accusations of racism is just not true. Some were, but they were in no position to make the decision to evacuate.

Another agriculture related problem, especially in California is that the predominately Filipino and Mexican field workers refused to work for Japanese farmers and nobody was willing to work their crops.

At no point was the government interested in "locking up" the evacuated Japanese. From the beginning if the evacuation should occur the plan was to relocate them to areas in the interior with suitable farmland where the majority being in agriculture could continue producing for the war effort. From the begining religious, social service and even the JACL demanded that if the evacuation should occur the Japanese shouldn't just be "kicked out" of the combat zones.

The government should be responsible for feeding, housing, providing employment and medical care for the evacuated people - and assiting them in re-establishing themselves in the interior - in as humane an environment as could be provided. That is just what the government did with the Relocation Centers.

Ultimately the decision to evacuate was a military decision with thougtful advice provided from all sides regarding the handling of all Alien Enemies.

Thanks for the post! It allows me to keep responding!

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Furthermore I recall that the compensation by the federal government of US$20,000 per internee and apology is absurd! it should be the other way round. It is the Nikkei who should be paying the US government for the relocation and protection costs it bore with interest with gratitude! Any implication that the US was unjust in putting these people under protective custody is gross historical revisionism at its worst.

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Any implication that the US was unjust in putting these people under protective custody is gross historical revisionism at its worst.

I agree! Just look at the horrible conditions! Not for the faint of heart, though. The look of horror on their faces is painful.

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00314p001.jpg

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00314p003.jpg

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00314p016.jpg

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00314p031.jpg

This last pic is the worst. The women are being tortured.

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00314p017.jpg

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Instead we should have allowed these Japanese Americans to run around the country rather than infringing on their civil liberties.

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00315p004.jpg

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00315p007.jpg

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00315p015.jpg

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00315p017.jpg

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00315p019.jpg

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00315p020.jpg

Moderator: Readers, the purpose of the discussion board is for you to exchange views and post your opinions on the subject. Please do not bombard the thread with links to historical documents.

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Furthermore I recall that the compensation by the federal government of US$20,000 per internee and apology is absurd!

Just to clarify, the 1948 Evacation Claims Act paid out $48 million to Japanese Americans, but no other American who had losses as a result of the war got a dime. The $20,000 was for "violation of civil liberties".

If the Japanese Americans marching around Tule Lake in the pics above were alive, they got $20,000 and an apology, too.

Now that's absurd...

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“We were very happy and grateful to be able to come here,” Matsumoto said. “There were a number of schools that didn’t want to take Japanese-Americans. But there also were educators who got together and said, ‘We want to get these college kids back to school.’”

That some schools accepted and helped Japanese-Americans does not disguise the fact that there were schools that did not want to accept or help them -- on the basis of their ethnic origin.

It's called racism.

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Leaders of the United States have admitted the mass internment of Japanese Americans was wrong, have apologized, and have attempted to make some reparations.

That much is pretty settled history, much to the chagrin of the revisionists who are driven by pretty much the same racist impulses ascribed to Western Defense Command John "A Jap is a Jap" DeWitt by the former head of the WRA, Dillon S. Myer.

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on the basis of their ethnic origin.

It's called racism.

No, on the basis of their national origin. If the Norwegians had launched a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor they would have received the same treatment. As I said before, the fact some Americans held bigoted views towards Japanese is irrelevent to the military needs of the evacuation.

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First of all, DeWitt's report was entirely for public consumption and in fact justified many of the fears that existed in the general populace. The comment was also for the consumption of the Empire of Japan, for the Americans had to justify the mass evacuation of 120,000 people without letting the enemy no their diplomatic and military codes had been compromised.

The plan worked flawlessly. The Empire of Japan immediately used the evacuation for propoganda purposes (like today's reparations movment), but knowledge of Japan's codes being broken was never revieled.

Unfortunatley, DeWitt's comments are now bandied about and taken entirely out of historical context.

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Besides, after reading these remarks, it looks like DeWitt wasn't too far off the mark whether he meant it or not.

Heimusha Kai in America

"The world should realize that our military action in China is based upon the significant fact that we are forced to fight under realistic circumstances. As a matter of historical fact, whenever the Japanese government begins a military campaign, we, Japanese, must be united and everyone of us must do his part.

"As far as our patriotism is concerned, the world knows that we are superior to any other nation. However, as long as we are staying on foreign soil, what can we do for our mother country? All our courageous fighters are fighting at the front today, forgetting their parents, wives and children in their homes! It is beyond our imagination, the manner in which our imperial soldiers are sacrificing their lives at the front line, bomb after bomb, deaths after deaths! Whenever we read or hear this sad news, who can keep from crying in sympathy? Therefore, we, the Japanese in the United States, have been contributing a huge amount of money for war relief funds and numerous comfort bags for our imperial soldiers.

"Today, we, Japanese in the United States, who are not able to sacrifice our lives for our National cause are new firmly resolved to stand by to settle present war as early as possible. We are proud to say that our daily happy life in America is dependent upon the protective power of Great Japan! We are facing a critical emergency, and we will take strong action as planned. We do hope and beg you all to cooperate with us for our National cause."

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And more...

Another group of Japanese met on January 1, 1941, at Lindsay, California. They honored the 2,601st Year of the Founding of the Japanese Empire and participated in the annual reverence to the Emperor, and bowed their heads toward Japan in order to indicate that they would be ready to respond to the call of the mother country with one mind. Japan is fighting to carry out our program of Greater Asiatic co-prosperity. Our fellow Japanese countrymen must be of one spirit and should endeavor to unite our Japanese societies in this country .

Evidence of the regular occurrence of Emperor worshiping ceremonies in almost every Japanese populated community in the United States had been discovered.

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No, on the basis of their national origin. If the Norwegians had launched a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor they would have received the same treatment.

Were Norwegians subject to the laws which singled out Asians for discrimination, decades prior to Pearl Harbor?

You appear to admit there was racial bigotry against the Japanese-Americans. I content that Mr. Matsumoto encountered it when he relates that there were universities that refused to accept Japanese-Americans. When it gets to that level, it is institutionalized racism. Refusing a Japanese-American entrance to a university on that basis has nothing to do with wartime necessity.

Regarding DeWitt, I will let the assessment by the former WRA leader, Dillon S. Myer -- a man who you yourself presented to this forum as a credible source for the treatment of Japanese-Americans in the camps -- stand. Myer's assessment was that DeWitt was acting out of racist impulses. Racism did and does exist in American society, as much as you may not want to openly admit it.

DeWitt's willingness to deliver an overtly racist message for "public consumption" as you put it, pretty much damns DeWitt as well as the "public" he thought he was feeding. Had he not succumbed to his racist impulses, he might have acted more as a worthy leader and American. It took decades, but I'm glad the United States has admitted it acted wrongly.

For such a "minor" event in history that you earlier claimed it is, and being settled as it is, the time you spend in your defense of what your own government has admitted was wrong, combined with your disparagement and dismissal of the Japanese-American contributions to the efforts in WWII, makes it appear that you harbor deep-seated racial animosity towards, at least, one ethnic group in particular.

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The Japanese radio today commented that the evacuation of 70,000 American-born Japanese from the Pacific Coast is “diabolic savagery,” and contrasted their treatment with that of the civilians in lands Japan has occupied.

When hasn't the overt American racism of the past been grist for the propaganda mills of other nations?

Propaganda is wrong; racism is a much worse wrong. Especially from a nation which claims itself a place where "All men are created equal."

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It's nice to see what side you guys are on....

It's nice to see folks like you claim, in 2009, that what the American government admitted was wrong also means that anyone who agrees with the US government's admission also supported Japan in the war.

Nice, in the sense that it so clearly demonstrates a loose grip on reality.

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Regarding DeWitt, I will let the assessment by the former WRA leader, Dillon S. Myer -- a man who you yourself presented to this forum as a credible source for the treatment of Japanese-Americans in the camps -- stand. Myer's assessment was that DeWitt was acting out of racist impulses.

That's fine. Myer's is entitled to his opinion, but he was also a civilian and not privy to military intel. Besides the MAGIC intercepts relating to the evacuation weren't released until 1977, six years after Myer's comment that you cite.

Final Report was a cover story. it provided a plausable explanation for the evacuation which was based on information that could not be revealed. Criticize DeWitt and Final Report all you want, but denying the existence of intelligence regarding the real reason for the evacuation is dishonest.

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For such a "minor" event in history that you earlier claimed it is, and being settled as it is, the time you spend in your defense of what your own government has admitted was wrong, combined with your disparagement and dismissal of the Japanese-American contributions to the efforts in WWII, makes it appear that you harbor deep-seated racial animosity towards, at least, one ethnic group in particular.

Well, I think you are probably of Japanese ancestory and you can't cope with the fact that members of your own community in America chose to support Japan. It's obvious given the amount of evidence I have provided that you have ignored.

You have provided primarily rhetoric. I'm providing a little now because this thread is about spent.

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It's nice to see folks like you claim, in 2009, that what the American government admitted was wrong also means that anyone who agrees with the US government's admission also supported Japan in the war.

Nice, in the sense that it so clearly demonstrates a loose grip on reality.

Radio Tokio's not saying anything different than you are.

Go back to my first post and re-read the comment by Eizo Hori. He must be a "racist", too.

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Radio Tokio's not saying anything different than you are.

Actually, when it referred to how good their treatment was for their civilians in occupied areas, it immediately brought to mind your propaganda on how nice everyone had it in the U.S. camps.

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This I know you cannot accept because it is too painful for you to admit a good percentage of you own community were traitors to America.

The Polish-American community in Detroit of which I was part would be very surprised to learn that.

In 1942, the Japanese-Americans demonstrated their loyalty by largely submitting to an act by their government which they knew was wrong. We can use the heat of war as an excuse for the US government committing the wrong act -- something the US government finally got around to admitting.

What it now appears is that, in 2009, with no heat of war as an excuse, we have in you an example of someone who, unlike the loyal Japanese-Americans refuses to go along with an action by his government. Who spreads lies and propaganda and otherwise shows disdain for his government and the Americans who served their country faithfully.

I think your accusation of traitor might be better placed at its source.

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The Polish-American community in Detroit of which I was part would be very surprised to learn that.

Well, you're just young and deluded then. Poles and other Slavic people were also affected by anti-immigration laws after WW1. I guess they were victims of "racism", too.

In 1942, the Japanese-Americans demonstrated their loyalty by largely submitting to an act by their government which they knew was wrong.

Most of the adults among them had enough sense to understand that they were nationals of a country with which we were at war, and that they were being treated so much better than their own homeland was treating our nationals that they were lucky to be where they were.

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What it now appears is that, in 2009, with no heat of war as an excuse, we have in you an example of someone who, unlike the loyal Japanese-Americans refuses to go along with an action by his government.

Yes, the government apologized, but those who know the history understand it was a political circus. When politicians start writing American history rather than historians, the result will be BAD HISTORY.

Certianly with no heat of war it's easy to accuse people of racism rather than focus on winning the war. And let's face it, Polish history isn't exactly full of great military victories.

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I guess they were victims of "racism", too.

To the extent that certain Americans of some European backgrounds considered them to be of a lower race, then yes. But none of the European immigrants had their ability to become a citizen of the US blocked to them the way the racist policies of the U.S. at the time handled immigrants from Asia.

Most of the adults among them had enough sense to understand that they were nationals of a country with which we were at war, and that they were being treated so much better than their own homeland was treating ...

Their "own homeland" was now the United States of America. Many would have become American citizens, given the chance. In fact, after they were given the chance the vast majority of Issei did in fact become citizens of their own homeland.

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Yes, the government apologized, but those who know the history understand it was a political circus. When politicians start writing American history rather than historians, the result will be BAD HISTORY.

Far from a political circus, it was democracy at its best -- working to put some remedy into a gross historical injustice. It can only be a circus to those who despise the democratic process, where people whom you despise and disparage actually have a voice about what really happened, such as the Mr. Matsumoto of this article. And where you come to learn that a vast majority of people who truly live according to the ideals of U.S. citizenship do not share your obvious prejudices against Japanese-Americans.

When politicians start writing American history rather than historians, the result will be BAD HISTORY.

And when the practitioners of the Big Lie theory start trying to tell us what history should be, there will be NO history. For example, in your history, there would be no account of Myer's claim that Lt. Gen. DeWitt was acting according to racist impulses.

"On the other hand, in the genuine, truthful telling of history, those who harbor hatred and prejudice against the Japanese would certainly be represented," he said to Exhibit A.

Certianly with no heat of war it's easy to accuse people of racism rather than focus on winning the war.

War or no war, it's certainly easy to tell who is acting out their racist tendencies. War just gives them a bit more cover to operate. I believe Mr. Myer would agree with that.

And let's face it, Polish history isn't exactly full of great military victories.

I suppose you say that in order to show us all just how superior you are. The American nation would not have achieved all that has over 200 years without the contributions of a lot of people who were not born on U.S. soil. Any fool can try to conflate a military victory into being indicative of some other greatness; the key to America's greatness lies in the fact that it is a country that is able to see its own wrongs and try to right them.

And just because you rob yourself of some of those victories, preferring to wallow in your hatred and obsession, it doesn't mean you get to take it away from the rest of us, now matter how hard you try. I am proud to live in a country that can admit when it was wrong.

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Sixty seven years ago, President Franklin Roosevelt signed a Executive Order 9066, which eventually mobilize a mass incarceration of 110,000 persons of Japanese ancestory on the West Coast without due process of law, two-thirds of whom were U.S. citizens. Thousands of books have been written about the interment camp. And by now, revisionist historians of revisionist historians engage in an endless cycle of disagreement over why the war and internment camp started, how it ended and what it all meant.

For most internees, this represented the single most traumatic episode in the collective lives. Most of the 110,000 persons removed for reasons of "national security" were school-age children, infants and young adults not yet of voting age.

Early rumors of sabotage and espionage by Japanese residents in Hawaii and the West Coast were found to be false by the FBI and other govenment agencies, but these findings were suppressed by high U.S. officials in government. There was not one instances of sabotage or espionage by Japanese citizens or residents of the U.S. or during the war. Nevertheless, the government did not deny rumors to that effect.

At the time, Executive Order 9066 was justified as a "military necessity" to protect against domestic espionage and sabotage. However, it was later documented that "our government had in its possession a proof that not one Japanese American, citizen or not, had engaged in espionage, not one had committed any act of sabotage.

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sfjp330 - you seem to be intent on stating issue with U.S. policy without answering any questions posed to you. I would be interested to know your thoughts on the 130,000 (likely more - official records are almost non-existent to a degree) civilians interned by the Japanese. If you believe Japanese American interned (who were largely treated at least humanely) deserved recompense, do you agree that those held by the Japanese deserve the same? Do you even care, or is your passion only with Japanese Americans?

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Their "own homeland" was now the United States of America.

Nonsense. They wre overseas Japanese living in America. Did you read the quotes I provided above? ONI intelligence indicated a 25% disloyalty rate.

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Far from a political circus, it was democracy at its best -- working to put some remedy into a gross historical injustice.

I provided plenty of information on this, too. You don't want to believe it and that's fine. I'm not out to convince you, but you're wrong.

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How does that excuse another country from doing the right thing with regards to people they have wronged? You think that two wrongs somehow make a right? There are many examples of nations trying to the right things by others; why not try to emulate them?

Oh, I'm not trying to excuse it by any means. Those that were American citizens, or in the process of becoming citizens, should never have been locked up. It flies in the face os what America stands for. Doing what they did is not right, nor an excuse. My point is that while everyone loves to blames us 'Evil Americans' no one seems ready to call others to task. We don't seem to get the benefit of being human, but are expected to make recompense to others when we are shown to be just that.

It's not right that we did such a thing; but it's not right that other nations did and no one gives a rat's arse.

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tigermoth; Difference is majority of these people that were interned were U.S. citizens born here (two-thirds) and they were interned without due process of law. Japan is a different country and this is unrelated to this subject.

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Early rumors of sabotage and espionage by Japanese residents in Hawaii and the West Coast were found to be false by the FBI and other govenment agencies, but these findings were suppressed by high U.S. officials in government. There was not one instances of sabotage or espionage by Japanese citizens or residents of the U.S. or during the war. Nevertheless, the government did not deny rumors to that effect.

Nonsense. I've posted plenty of evidence of espionage and fifth-column activity.

As for suppresing evidence, what a farce.

Aiko Herzig-Yoshinaga's (Japanese-American! Surprise!) "newly discovered evidence" refers to a January 26, 1942 memo written by Lt. Commander K.D. Ringle, deputy intelligence officer for 11th Naval District.

Aiko was the "principal researcher" for the CWIRC.

So the "newly discovered evidence" that Aiko "found" that was used in the Coram Nobis cases of the 1980's is this Ringle memo the the pro-reparations lawyers submit to the court as exhibit "D" MINUS THE FEBRUARY 14, 1942 ONI COVER MEMO FROM RINGLE'S BOSS, H.E. KEISKER STATING "IT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE FINAL AND OFFICAL OPINION OF THE OFFICE OF NAVAL INTELLIGENCE ON THE SUBJECT."

The memo was also carbon copied for MID and two sections of the FBI.

Thus, the memo was an unoffical document haveing no status whatsoever was not concealed, but on the contrary given wide distribution, did not represent the stated position of the ONI nor anyone else of any status in the military, and WAS IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH AN OFFICIAL ONI INTELLIGENCE REPORT AUTHORED BY LT. COMMANDER HIMSELF LESS THAN TWO WEEKS LATER.

That's the story on the Ringle memo, and the "newly discovered evidence" the court received in the Corum Nobis cases.

So what's it called when lawyers provide evidence under false pretense?

Here's a link to the cover letter conveniently ignored by Aiko and the activists lawyers...

http://www.internmentarchives.com/archimg/d00425p070.png

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sfjp330 - you seem to be intent on stating issue with U.S. policy without answering any questions posed to you.

That's typical of both these guys. They're hardcores. I'm just going around in cirlces with them now, but haven't gone through my documents lately so it's good practice. I wish they could debate themselves better, though.

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German and Italian enemy aliens assisted considerably in weeding out the disloyals from their communities in America. The Japanese didn't cooperate at all.

Why is that?

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More "racists" for you:

"Almost all the testimony by Japanese-Americans before this Commission has been decidedly pro-redress because the moderate voices have been largely squelched. The report of the CWRIC "Personal Justice Denied" is very biased". Mas Odoi, President 442nd Memorial Assn, Seattle, WA

"The summary of the CWRIC "Personal Justice Denied" is one-sided, faultfinding propaganda. From the beginning the Commission members were carefully selected by the JACL, so it is not impartial. The Commission chair, Joan Bernstein, herself disqualified by expressing pro-redress comments before the public hearings began. First of all, Executive Order 9066 was the remedy, not the cause of our wartime ordeal." Shonin Yamashita, Issei. From his book-It Had To Be So.

In reviewing the Commission's report and recommendations, one encounters three leading characteristics: intellectual dishonesty, moral posturing, and political opportunism." Dr. Ken Masugi, Resident Fellow Claremont Inst.

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ONI intelligence indicated a 25% disloyalty rate.

LOL! Where is the science behind that preposterous statement?

DeWitt is on record as claiming the loyalty of NO Japanese could be determined. Of course, we know from the head of WRA that he was displaying some very racist tendencies.

Also later revealed is the very same ONI mentioned above arguing against mass relocation during the process leading to Executive Order 9066. Documents later released under the Freedom of Information act reveal that the head ONI officer in charge of investigating the Japanese on the West Coast concluded that: "the vast majority of Japanese and Japanese Americans living on the West Coast are loyal and trustworthy."

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Those that were American citizens, or in the process of becoming citizens, should never have been locked up. It flies in the face os what America stands for.

I agree with you, but there you and Berserker part ways.

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"In the interest of both accuracy and fairness, it is important to distinguish sharply between the residents of relocation centers and the militarists of Imperial Japan. Two-thirds of the people in the centers are American citizens, born in this country and educated, for the most part, in American public schools. At all centers, the residents have bought thousands of dollars worth of war bonds and have made significant contributions to the American Red Cross. Many of them have sons, husbands, and brothers in the United States Army. Even the aliens among them have nearly all lived in the United States for two decades or longer. And it is important to remember that these particular aliens have been denied the privilege of gaining American citizenship under our laws. It is also important to distinguish between the residents of relocation centers and civilian internees. Under our laws, aliens of enemy nationality who are found guilty of acts or intentions against the security of the Nation are being confined in internment camps which are administered not by the War Relocation Authority but by the Department of Justice. American citizens suspected of subversive activities are being handled through the ordinary courts. The residents of the relocation centers, however, have never been found guilty--either individually or collectively--of any such acts or intentions. They are merely a group of American residents who happen to have Japanese ancestors and who happened to be living in a potential combat zone shortly after the outbreak of war. All evidence available to the War Relocation Authority indicates that the great majority of them are completely loyal to the United States." (War Relocation Authority Publication dated May 1943) http://www.lib.washington.edu/exhibits/harmony/Documents/wrapam.html

Well the above is about all I need to conclude this issue.

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LOL! Where is the science behind that preposterous statement?

The same report where you got this statement.

ONI officer in charge of investigating the Japanese on the West Coast concluded that: "the vast majority of Japanese and Japanese Americans living on the West Coast are loyal and trustworthy."

He estimated a 75% loyalty rate which equals a 25% disloyalty rate. But you haven't read the report, have you.

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DeWitt is on record as claiming the loyalty of NO Japanese could be determined. Of course, we know from the head of WRA that he was displaying some very racist tendencies.

And as I mentioned and you ingnored, DeWitt was for evacuating all enemy-aliens and not evacuating American citizens. That doesn't quite gel with your view.

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Japan is a different country and this is unrelated to this subject

Well, I would tend to disagree. The discussion on this thread has turned to the reparations paid to Japanese-Americans, and subsequently how horrible or not there treatment was during internment. I would justify the relevancy of my commments in saying that comparatively the U.S. interment of Japanese-Americans was quite humane and tame compared with that exercised by the enemy nation that we were fighting at the time. Japanese-Americans such as the man in the aricle - and likely your father - have received compensation for a detention that, while unfair and constitutionally questionable (at least on the ground in which it was intended)allowed for things such as the continuance of education, decent food and safety. Not all of the detainees - if I'm understanding corrcetly - Berserker, help me out with the numbers here - were American citizens, and some held dual citizenship. The received compensation as well. Your outrcy for your own is understandable sfjp330 (although there seems to be some question on family loyalties by what I read in earlier postings, and where your father was held - which you don't care to address), but I think it relevant to say that if the plight of the Japanes-Americans is worth study and recompnense, the plight of those civilians interred by the Japanese is no less relevant, worthy of outcry, and worth discussion. Perhaps someone will write an article on them posted on JT so I can make relevent comment.

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Well the above is about all I need to conclude this issue.

Well, I've touched on all those issues in previous posts on this thread.

It's funny how muched I've touched on that is conveniently ignored because it doesn't support your views. Taking up JT server space repeating myself isn't an alternative, so I'll part by suggesting those who want the truth regarding this history stop by this website and start reading for yourselves.

http://www.internmentarchives.com/

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Thus, the memo was an unoffical document haveing no status whatsoever was not concealed, but on the contrary given wide distribution, did not represent the stated position of the ONI nor anyone else of any status in the military

LOL!!!

The memo reads: "This report (the report by Ringle) was prepared at the request of the Office of Naval Intelligence...that Lieutenant Commander Ringle was particularly WELL acquainted with the Japanese problem. [emphasis in original]

"Although it does not represent the final and official opinion of [ONI] on this subject, it is believe the report will be of interest to the FBI."

No one with any understanding can claim that not representing the "final and official" opinion of ONI means that same thing as having no bearing whatsoever. NOT unless the person making the claim can produce the document that IS the final and official claim of ONI. ONI obviously thought it official enough to commission the report and thought the report worthy of sending to the FBI.

The Report in question is the one that found the vast majority of Japanese and Japanese Americans to be loyal and trustworthy.

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Messrs. Odoi, Yamashita, and Masugi's voices are heard, but they obviously don't speak for a majority of the Japanese American community.

Odoi has spoken of it being very wrong to have sent the Japanese to camps. Yamashita, on the other hand, believes it was the best thing that happened. So those two can't even agree with each other.

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He estimated a 75% loyalty rate which equals a 25% disloyalty rate.

You are kidding, right?

Why can't it be 75% Loyalty, 1% Disloyalty and 24% Neutral/Refuse to Take a Side? After all, Ringle estimated that "over 90%" of the Japanese and Japanese Americans would cause no trouble at all. From that you derive a 25% disloyalty rate!!??

I'm more glad than ever I read this ONI report and learned of Ringle's recommendation against mass evacuation.

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Re:The Berserker 4:55PM "I've posted plenty of evidence of espinoge" As is typical, the response from such people is hurling accusations of "racism" in a feeble attempt to shut down the debate regarding this history.

You will also find poor analogies such as Tim McVeigh, who acted alone and was not a part of an organized group with ties to another county with which we were at war. Besides, where is Tim McVeigh now?

And you will also find blatant historical untruths such as Emil saying the Korematsu conviction was overturned when it was not because lower courts cannot overturn the rulings of higher courts. Korematsu is still good law to this day. Even William Moritani, a member of the CWIRC commission who sat in judgement of his own case will admit to that.

Regarding the Korematsu coram nobis case that Emil refers to, Aiko Herzig-Yoshinaga's "newly discovered evidence" refers to a January 26, 1942 memo written by Lt. Commander K.D. Ringle, deputy intelligence officer for 11th Naval District.

This memo was the "newly discovered evidence" provided by HERZIG-YOSHINAGA, husband of JOHN HERZIG whose name gets bandied around a lot now that Michelle's book has been published.

You may remember Aiko was the principal researcher for the CWIRC. Her husband John in a blatant conflict of interest appeared before the commission and attempted to slime David Lowman before Sam Hall reigned him in...

So the "newly discovered evidence" that Aiko "found" that was used in the Coram Nobis cases of the 1980's is this Ringle memo the the pro-reparations (National Council on Japanese American Redress, who wanted to sue for $28 billion) lawyers submit to the court as exhibit "D" MINUS THE FEBRUARY 14, 1942 ONI COVER MEMO FROM RINGLE'S BOSS, H.E. KEISKER STATING "IT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE FINAL AND OFFICAL OPINION OF THE OFFICE OF NAVAL INTELLIGENCE ON THE SUBJECT."

The memo was also carbon copied for MID and two sections of the FBI.

Thus, the memo was an unoffical document haveing no status whatsoever was not concealed, but on the contrary given wide distribution, did not represent the stated position of the ONI nor anyone else of any status in the military, and WAS IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH AN OFFICIAL ONI INTELLIGENCE REPORT AUTHORED BY LT. COMMANDER HIMSELF LESS THAN TWO WEEKS LATER.

Moderator: Readers, you are going around in circles. Please do not post any more documents.

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Well the above is about all I need to conclude this issue. Well, I've touched on all those issues in previous posts on this thread. It's funny how muched I've touched on that is conveniently ignored >because it doesn't support your views

It doesn't support the position of the US govt. I asked you before why the US govt apologized and your answer effectively stated that such apology should not have been made and that it was political. One one hand you fully support the action that was taken by the US govt in 1941 and at the same time you fully denounce the action taken by the very same govt in 1988. I've read through all of your extensive writings and to put it bluntly, you haven't convinced me. And yea, accusing your Polish-American discussion adversary of being Japanese-American didn't win you any brownie points either.

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correction 1942

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Moderator: Readers, you are going around in circles.

Agreed....

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Messrs. Odoi, Yamashita, and Masugi's voices are heard, but they obviously don't speak for a majority of the Japanese American community.

How do you know. Anyone who speaks out against the reperations fanatics are immediately ostrocized. It's no different from the "Thought Police" of the 30's and 40's.

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Looking at the internment camp issue through the lens of 20/20 history makes it look like a obviously racist and illegal act. But when your country is at war, and there is significant doubt you will survive (the U.S. was not nearly the superpower then that it is now), you do EVERYTHING you can think of to prevail. EVERYTHING. Even when you know that history will later judge you accordingly. The decision to intern Japanese americans was not done in the interest of civil liberties, or voter appreciation, or a bump in the polls but to WIN A WAR.

In order to win wars as big and important as WWII, you gotta do some dirty stuff.

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Looking at the internment camp issue through the lens of 20/20 history makes it look like a obviously racist and illegal act. But when your country is at war...

Values are not values until they are tested. An America that flushes its values down the toilet through "obviously racist and illegal" acts indicates that its constitution, according to those who would betray it so easily, is no better than the paper its printed on.

You start excusing the illegal removal of the civil rights and liberties of innocent people, and a few decades later you might well justify torturing people.

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What drove FDR to his decision?Was it all the Wilson administration figures who served him?

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One thing that most people don't realize about the Japanese-American internment issue, is that over half of them were children. And although, adults were given the option of receiving some monetary compensation for their internment; children were not; even though they had to go through the same hardships that the adults went through. There were even some cases where in the 10 concentration camps, that children were separated from their parents. Many of these children died, due to inadequate food and stress from living in these conditions.

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Values are not values until they are tested. An America that flushes its values down the toilet through

The values that were tested, and prevailed, were those of self preservation. Some values are more important than others. That is why during a war the some of the values that are inherent in the constitution are temporarily superceded by the value of the country itself.

History is not all roses and rainbows. In order to survive, sometimes the survival of the many outweigh the rights of the few.

Some battles were purposely lost in Europe to not let the Nazis onto the fact that the allies had broken their codes. Innocents left to die, to secure a larger victory.

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The values that were tested, and prevailed, were those of self preservation.

As it relates to tens of thousands of loyal Americans being deprived of their freedoms without due process, no rational excuse for "self-preservation" applies. If an event can be seen as wrong, it is just as wrong on the day it was committed as it is looking back at it.

It appears that what you are claiming is that the rights of human beings, as interpreted by one segment of Americans, are meaningless under any number of circumstances as seen by that segment. This is nothing less than a betrayal of the constitution and rule of law.

One of the common stories told by the Japanese Americans who experienced the relocation and internment was of their bewilderment when, in the camps, it came time to recite the pledge of allegience or learn about what the U.S. government claimed that it stood for. As it turns out, you are helping to justify the pledge and the ideals as lies.

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Many of these children died, due to inadequate food and stress from living in these conditions.

The Relocation Centers had the highest birth-rates and lowest death-rates of any wartime American community.

Unlike the the rest of America, the Relocation Centers were not subject to food rationing.

Those are facts. Where did you read you information?

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History is not all roses and rainbows. In order to survive, sometimes the survival of the many outweigh the rights of the few.

I agree. A military combat zone is not regular civil society. The military calls the shots and the objective of the military is to win the war.

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Those are facts. Where did you read you information?

The fact is, that children DID die in the internment camps due to inadequate living conditions. As to my source, you should watch the documentary, "Children of the Camps" by PBS (The Public Broadcasting Service). There is even more information about this in Michi Nishiura Weglyn's highly-acclaimed book, "Years of Infamy". Her use of photos and detailed accounts of life in the internment camps are a good read. I highly recommend it.

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To add, here is a link I found, with some photographs from an internment camp:

http://www.learningfromlyrics.org/Internment.html

"American citizens of Japanese origin were not even handled like aliens of the other enemy nationalities -- Germans and Italians -- on a selective basis, but as untouchables, a group who could not be trusted and had to be shut up only because they were of Japanese descent..."

~ Francis Biddle, Attorney General, Postwar memoirs

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I'm glad the Japanese can remember this. It shows promise that maybe someday they will also remember why they got bombed, or what countries even participated in WW2, or the Rape of Nanking, or the Bataan Death March, or any of the other issues about WW2 history that have all but been erased from their school history text. This makes me ruminate on some famous words:

"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." - Edmund Burke

I certainly hope this is not in Japan's future.

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I'm glad the Japanese can remember this

Why don't you try reading the article before you post something? It's about Americans of Japanese ancestry. Not Japan.

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Yeah, I tried that. Let me connect the dots for you.

The whole thing is about Japan - this is news about Japanese-Americans and how they were treated during WW2. Since it's news about WW2 and Japan happened to be involved in WW2, the American government reaction to Japanese-Americans is part of that history. My comments are also about Japan, and its participation in WW2, and the history there.

Last I checked, this is a news site about Japan. The only reason this is even posted here is to get a reaction from people living in Japan or wishing to read about Japan.

Cheers.

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this is news about **Japanese-Americans **and how they were treated during WW2.

Good point therealmusashi. But then you went and contradicted yourself by saying this:

I'm glad the Japanese can remember this.

Correction: I'm glad the Japanese-Americans can remember this. (since neither the Japanese nor the Americans could give a hoot about the Japanese-American ordeal). Believe me, "Japanese" and "Japanese-Americans" are quite different.

Trying to draw connections between what "Japanese-Americans" think, and what "Japanese" think about this issue (which by the way isn't even mentioned in this article) is like drawing a connection between "Ichiro getting 2000 hits and Japanese war crimes: "Ichiro has an ancestor who served in WWII, thus his ancestor has done some kind of war crime ... BOOM there you have a connection") Heck, I'm sure I could "connect the dots" between President Obama, and war crimes committed by Japan ... if I stretched it far enough.

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