'Streetwise' South Korea drops Japanese legacy

But many residents are less than happy, saying a cultural legacy has been abandoned in the name of logic.

Seems the japanese arnt the only one who lack common sense.

Surely logic would over ride cultural legacy.

Or perhaps run the two systems side by side if the people are so stubborn about using inadequate out moded systems.

a cultural legacy has been abandoned in the name of logic.

I nearly fell out of my chair when I read this. Are they sure they are not Japanese?

Many good Korean men died in their fight for Korean home rule for the sake of justice and reason, and yet it took well over 60 years after independence to start abandoning the same regime that continues to annoy the crap out of Japanese couriers and taxi drivers.

Apart from this clandestine street address system, there are many other Japanese 'evils' that still linger in Korea as familiar and accepted features of daily life, like those retarded celebrity panel TV shows with huge colored captions.

it will be nice if japan can have street names and stuff, i talk to a postman last week about where a place is at and he had no idea.

saying a cultural legacy has been abandoned in the name of logic.

How dare they. We in America would never bow to logic!

Well, took a hundred years, but better late than never. Has anyone ever tried to give directions in these countries to a place that isn't right in front of you? You have to say, "Go straight until you reach the first Lawson's, turn left and continue to go straight until you see the row of pornographic vending machines at the intersection next to the junior highschool, then turn right. Go straight again until there's a curve in the road next to a rice field, you'll find it on your left".

Auctioning off street names would have been a good money spinner for the city.

Ah, that is a great idea, I won't get lost in Seoul anymore. I wished they would do that in Tokyo too.

it will be nice if japan can have street names and stuff,

If they made a rule to use only Japanese words and kanji for streets, then that would be okay.. I get the feeling every second street would be Janglish written in Katakana... Here are some examples from near where I live:

furo-raru abenyu-

san hose sutori-to

O-randa Doori

and my favorite

Happi- sumairu sutori-to

@papasmurfinjapan

furo-raru abenyu-

san hose sutori-to

O-randa Doori

and my favorite

Happi- sumairu sutori-to

LOL papa, your post got me ROFL~~~

papasmurf: "If they made a rule to use only Japanese words and kanji for streets,"

Agree, so long as the names were also written in Roma-ji and hopefully other languages (to be foreign-friendly). Nice name ideas -- you should probably patent them before they are used! At a train station near my home not a single sign is in anything but Katakana-English for place names surrounding the station. Not one.

The fully logical system would just be coordinates: latitude, longitude and elevation. Especially suited to cities with NSEW grids like Kyoto.

Easiest place I've ever been to navigate was Utah. Directions and numbers are all they use, and all you need. 270 North, 380 West. You know, that if you are at center, you go north 270 and west 380, you'll get where you need to go. So easy.

The fully logical system would just be coordinates: latitude, longitude and elevation. Especially suited to cities with NSEW grids like Kyoto.

Nonsense. Adjacent major streets in Kyoto are thousandths of a degree of latitude or longitude apart. All you would do with your system is guarantee that no one can find anything without a GPS. And what would elevation have to do with anything? The only relevant information that could possibly carry is what floor something is on. And it's just easier to say "5F".

You want a really logical system? Go to Philadelphia. The north-south streets are numbered, the east-west streets are named. Addresses on east-west streets are keyed to the numbered north-south streets between which they are located. For example. 435 Market Street is located between 4th and 5th Streets. 1827 Walnut Street is located between 18th and 19th Streets. On north-south streets, the numbers are keyed to how many blocks you're located from Market Street, the major east-west street. So you get addresses like 520 N. 10th Street (5 blocks north of Market) or 1800 S. 5th Street (18 blocks south of Market). Simple!

Possibly another reason Korea is growing and has made a remarkable come-back from the Asian financial crisis, while Japan has sat basically stagnant -- they are willing to change when it makes obvious sense. (Their revamping their agricultural system so they can get on board the FTA band-wagon is another obvious example.) If Japan cannot even consider changing things like addresses, because of the age-old excuse about "being rooted in Japanese culture", then they will never be able to address the big problems like, agriculture, immigration, citizenship, etc.

herefornow: "If Japan cannot even consider changing things like addresses, because of the age-old excuse about "being rooted in Japanese culture", then they will never be able to address the big problems like, agriculture, immigration, citizenship, etc."

Japan couldn't even wash its own underwear if it were put to a vote; they'd say "There is something that needs washing. It is regrettable. We are forming a panel of experts to discuss legislation that will leave it to you to operate the washing machine voluntarily."

Korea's just more assertive.

Japan Inc Is stuck in reverse while South Korea is making progress?? For shame !!

I guess you people really do not realize that the Japanese system also is based on logic. The people who complains are basing that address should be based on street numbers and avenue names, basically comprised of lines. The Japanese system is comprised in blocks with the smallest block being individual buildings. This is easier on a city management point of view since local governments can comprehend more thoroughly how many individual block comprises their local government. So if you address is Minato-ku, Roppongi 6-2-1 it means that you are the first house or building within sub-block 2, block 6 of roppongi city block minato-ku municipal local government. This system was utilized from the Edo period when sub-blocks were the smallest unit within a city society with a sub block leader acted as contact person with the government.

They ought to add more hanja equivalents to their street and place names. This would aid the many Chinese and Japanese tourists who visit and try to find their way.

Samuraiblue maybe that system worked great in the Edo period but this isnt the Edo period any more and hasnt been for quite sometime now.

If Japan cannot even consider changing things like addresses, because of the age-old excuse about "being rooted in Japanese culture", then they will never be able to address the big problems like, agriculture, immigration, citizenship, etc.

It's not unreasonable that some Korean residences are unhappy.

ExportExpertAug. 14, 2011 - 11:15PM JST; Samuraiblue maybe that system worked great in the Edo period but this isnt the Edo period any more and hasnt been for quite sometime now.

For the local government it is still the most easiest method to manage a city. For example the sub-block leaders are still active comprising a town gathering like natural disaster evacuation drills. The sub-block leader reports the number of people reported in and number of people missing to block leader and the block leader reports to the city leader funneling up the information to the top. With this method you can immediately identify the which block was hit the most by simply mapping out the numbers into a map. For those arguing that it can be done with the street and avenue system you have to put into consideration that most blocks utilizing the street& avenue systems are as large as blocks of Tokyo making it cumbersome to rely the information in a timely matter since there are no sub-section below it. Since the Japanese system is a hierarchical structure the flow of information becomes much smoother.

SamuraiBlue

The Japanese address system is a nightmare for emergency management and for dispatching emergency vehicles. It also doesn't work very well outside of a dense metropolitan area where as the Western system accomodates both.

SamuraiBlue: "For example the sub-block leaders are still active comprising a town gathering like natural disaster evacuation drills."

And how do they conduct the drills?

A: "Go down the street!"

B: "Which one?"

A: "The one in Kita-district!"

B: "There are many! Which one!"

A: "Just go down the street by the park and turn left onto the street that starts from the kindergarden!"

I agree with USNinJapan2; the system here is a disaster, and that has been proven in disasters. Streets with names are easier to navigate, bottom line. Clinging to some obscure and outdated system because it's part of the 'culture' is just plain cultural stupidity. It's nice to see the SKoreans getting over it.

USNinJapan2Aug. 14, 2011 - 11:56PM JST; The Japanese address system is a nightmare for emergency management and for dispatching emergency vehicles. It also doesn't work very well outside of a dense metropolitan area where as the Western system accomodates both.

Dispatch of emergency vehicles are not a problem since they can easily pinpoint the location as fast as a street avenue system once you know the lay of the land and people operating emergency management should know it like the back of their hand. With a city wide disaster like an earthquake,flooding and or other major catastrophe the Japanese system is much easier than a street/ avenue system since the information is funneled up faster resulting to faster development of a crisis map where the most casualties are located. In rural areas both system would work since people living in that area knows each other regardless of the system utilized.

SamuraiBlue

You're missing the whole point. An ideal address system should be intuitive so that someone who is NOT familiar with the lay of the land can navigate it as easily as a local resident. It is 100X easier to find an address in NYC or Washington DC than it is in Tokyo because of Japan's antiquated system. And this whole system of funneling information that you keep talking about; it fails completely during a disaster because it relies on specific individuals (cho, ku, etc. reps) who can be injured or killed themselves. Not to mention the fact that in this system you have the emergency response system relying on someone who is an untrained civilian at one level or another, which is never a good thing. Some day Japan will wake up and fully adopt the Incident Command System (ICS) and National Incident Management System (NIMS) but evolving from this antiquated lot-based address system is a prerequisite.

SamuraiBlue

Ever tried to get directions to an address here in Japn using a service like Google Maps. All you get are a series of non-directions consisting of distances, route numbers even locals aren't familiar with, and turns at intersections which aren't named. Sure, it's a great system.

USNinJapan2Aug. 15, 2011 - 12:53AM JST; Ever tried to get directions to an address here in Japn using a service like Google Maps. All you get are a series of non-directions consisting of distances, route numbers even locals aren't familiar with, and turns at intersections which aren't named. Sure, it's a great system.

Never needed to since I understand the underlying logic of the Japanese system so I just follow the numeric system once reaching the city I was headed to.

As for the system it works if you have a community like Japan with each individual knowing his/her task. Once gathered as sub-block groups, if the lead is missing a sub-leader is selected from the group on the spot and heads to the location where sub-block leaders assembles and reports status of their group. A hierarchical structure cannot easily be broken for a reporting system if everyone knows the routine which is why drills are initiated periodically. It's the same as if you are in the military.

I didn't realize how Japanese the Koreans were!

USNinJapan2

I also know how lousy the avenue/street systems are in a city like Washington DC where street ends up in a dead end and/or a new road suddenly starts due to geographical and or man-made reasons.

the suffix of a street name could be the old neighbourhood name with a hyphen or such. That would keep the history while providing even more accurate directional location.

Why should I care what they are doing?

Yuri; if you don't care why comment, maybe secretly jealous that they are changing and growing whiel Japan stays the same and at teh best stagnates. Our neighbouring countries are always important.

"google navigation sux in Japan" : did you ever try a Japanese designed car navigation system ? the new ones are quite good. So the one letting you down is google.

JP systems are mostly Japanese, but you only need to learn about 5 main sentences to get by, and realistically you should not be driving a car if you don't understand Japanese anyway.

"SamuraiBlueAug. 14, 2011 - 10:59PM JST

I guess you people really do not realize that the Japanese system also is based on logic. The people who complains are basing that address should be based on street numbers and avenue names, basically comprised of lines. The Japanese system is comprised in blocks with the smallest block being individual buildings. This is easier on a city management point of view since local governments can comprehend more thoroughly how many individual block comprises their local government. So if you address is Minato-ku, Roppongi 6-2-1 it means that you are the first house or building within sub-block 2, block 6 of roppongi city block minato-ku municipal local government. This system was utilized from the Edo period when sub-blocks were the smallest unit within a city society with a sub block leader acted as contact person with the government."

It may be based on some vague logic, but we still walk around for hours looking for "addresses" in Tokyo. It's about time to get logical, and change this silly system.

SamuraiBlue

How you don't see the inherent flaw in an incident management system that relies on a hierarchy of volunteer leaders and subleaders who are expected to remain calm and collected during a disaster is beyond me. And the system is good because your average citizen knows what to do? And they know what to do because they participate in periodic drills? You evidently don't live in the same Japan I live in. I lived at the same address for 8 years previously and going on 4 years at my current address and not once has there been a disaster drill of any kind that involved me, my neighbors, or the cho.

I also know how lousy the avenue/street systems are in a city like Washington DC

IMO, Washington DC is one of the most logically laid out cities ever. You can take one look at the nearest street sign and know exactly where you are in the city based on the number, beginning letter of the street name and the number of syllables. On the contrary, in Tokyo (or any other Japanese locale) you can know the lot-based address system backwards and forwards and it won't help you because so few of the buildings are visibly marked with their addresses. You could be standing on the correct block but you'll have a hell of a time distinguishing which of the buildings, doors, etc. you see is the one that corresponds to the number you are seeking. Again, hardly efficient, especially if you're a policeman or a firefighter in a hurry and someone's life is in jeopardy.

@USNinJapan2

Exactly. Even if they do not implement a street name system, a first step would be to require a mark on each building with the address. In many places right now, you need a map (or your cell phone) to find your way, as the neighborhood planning maps are located only around a few locations (which you need to find) and are often not updated regularly (often written by hand on wooden boards, with some parts barely legible).

The Japanese system was designed to be inconvenient for the population but convenient for the bureaucracy. It was not designed to find easily an address, but to manage blocks in a hierarchical way. It emphasized authority over usefulness. It also made difficult for outsiders (people from other towns/prefectures) to find their way (the power was suspicious of travelers and any source of political instability).

A modern address system should be based on convenience for the population and businesses.

I give credit to the South Koreans for making practical changes like this. They also did away with kanji some time back. Changes like these are difficult but are sensible and pragmatic.

Clinging to some obscure and outdated system because it's part of the 'culture' is just plain cultural stupidity.

I totally agree. Unfortunately it falls on deaf (stubborn) ears when you say that to a native.

Good i think its modern BUT its gonna be a pain for a while to get used to. But naming streets & roads is fun. in the US we have streets, Roads, & Avenues & boulevards. streets for innner city. Roads for dirts roads & Avenues for upper class districts. the japanese mailing/ adress system is confusing BUT im sure all the mail delivery guys know it well. why do people want Japan to do the same thing? are they ready for "Sushi street"? & "ainu avenue"? LOL

Japan couldn't even wash its own underwear if it were put to a vote; they'd say "There is something that needs washing. It is regrettable. We are forming a panel of experts to discuss legislation that will leave it to you to operate the washing machine voluntarily."

smithinjapan: Please show your proof (links and stats) that show that this is true.

I gotta go with Yuri Otani on this. why exactly does Korea need to align its address system to international standards anyway? Part of the charm of life in Japan is not having a bloody clue where you are going and yet somehow figuring it all out in the end with the help of obscurely located maps, pigeon Japanese and a few kindly people on the street. I quite enjoy the challenge and I hope they dont change the address system here.

Claiming cultural legacy over logic or modernisation is absolutely sensible in many cases - but I am not convinced on this one.

Japan couldn't even wash its own underwear if it were put to a vote; they'd say "There is something that needs washing. It is regrettable. We are forming a panel of experts to discuss legislation that will leave it to you to operate the washing machine voluntarily."

smithinjapan: Please show your proof (links and stats) that show that this is true.

I just called the ward office and told them their underwear needed washing. They said they would put the suggestion forward at the next council meeting, form a sub-committee and get back to me with the results of the investigation in 2014. Can you wait until then for your stats?!

All readers back on topic please.

I just called the ward office and told them their underwear needed washing. They said they would put the suggestion forward at the next council meeting, form a sub-committee and get back to me with the results of the investigation in 2014.

Who did you call in the ward office? And which ward office are you talking about? Sounds a bit fishy to me. In any case, I have no clue as to what this has to do with this article's topic.

Exactly. All readers back on topic please.

South Korea is moving forward. I hope Japan does the same -- maybe they can make it into a rivalry thing and they'll both move forward all the faster.

Streets, Avenues, and consecutive numbers are all good and well when you have something approximating a grid. However, I live on a tiny back lane in the middle of what's now a part of a larger numbered block and not even a full block long. How would having a separate single name for this wee alley make anything easier?

One the whole, Tokyo is too much of a warren for any address system to be "intuitive" to an outsider. And mores the better for it. The people who know their way around serve as gate-keepers / extra security for outsiders asking their way to find the Tanaka household, etc..

Anyone here able to comment on how grid vs warren-like most S.Korean cities are?

Got to agree with Taj.

Many cities overseas are "newer" and designed on a grid system from the start and it won't work for many japanese and even older european cities.

The Japanese system is NOT that tough to understand(good explanations on wiki, etc).

Lets see I say between 'Avenue XYZ' and 'Alley ZYX' not very clear but if I do say 134th avenue and 64th Alley. Now that is the true problem most cities don't map well onto a grid pattern and thus often even street names are useless if they exist.

Just spend a bit learning about the japanese system and walk around your neighbourhood and soon it become clear. Plenty of signs out there to navigate by.

And yes, japanese do suck at drawing maps, etc.

The main problem with the Japanese system is that you need to have a map to find your way once you're in a neighborhood. Nobody gives directions using block numbers, so you have to rely on landmarks (which are fluctuating relatively fast since buildings are reconstructed every 30 years on average). Furthermore you cannot even find your way in a street using street or building numbers. Since the building numbers are attributed chronologically (based on administrative registration order), they don't run sequentially when you walk in a neighborhood (especially in older neighborhoods with decades of systematic construction/destruction/reconstruction process). For example in some neighborhoods 1-2-10 can be between 1-2-5 and 1-2-3 which is next to 1-3-8 and 1-4-12.

Everybody agrees that this is a mess.

This is simple logic: consecutively numbered buildings is much more intuitive to people than any administrative registration-based system. This system might be good for the bureaucracy but it definitely isn't designed for the population (like many things in Japan).

But I don't expect the bureaucracy to change this anytime soon in Japan (after all this is "how we Japanese do things", even if it is not rational or logical).

Come on Piglet the system ain't that tough to figure out, just do a bit of research.

High school students that deliver my Pizza can do it as can any other delivery driver in the areas I lived. And even if it is driven by the ward there is still a system to it and thus can be understood and mastered.

As for lack of maps, ever stopped outside a train-station, there are also local maps in areas, ditto for signs on lamp-posts, houses and more.

And, yes, the system does make sense once you understand it.

I am not saying that it is impossible to master it, just that it is definitely less intuitive and logical than a system based on consecutively numbered buildings. No wonder no other country kept using the same system (all the countries colonized by Japan including Korea reverted to a street number system).

All the buildings/plots in my area are numbered and are in sequence.

Maybe you live in a relatively recent development?

The street I live on is numbered sequentially though it doesn't have a name; the street is a number. The house numbers are sequential because they were all built at the same time. The streets that lead into and out of my street are also numbers, and bear no relation at all to the number of my street. The street with the number following my street is several blocks away, because that's the row of houses that was built directly after the row of houses I live in. The system is logical but chaotic, but it ain't gonna change any time soon.

The first few times we had stuff delivered here we had to give directions by phone to the delivery man, or fax in a hand-drawn map, because on the not-yet-updated maps the delivery firms were using, we were living in the middle of a very large field with no houses and no house numbers, not to mention no roads.

This is easier on a city management point of view since local governments can comprehend more thoroughly how many individual block comprises their local government.

And life should really be all about making things easy for the local government.

As written above by cleo, the system is logical... for administrative purposes. It is definitely not intuitive for everyday use. If it was, people would use the official address system to give directions ("from 1-chome-5-ban 2-go turn to 5-ban 7-go until you reach 8-ban 1-go"). But nobody does. People give directions using landmarks and station names.

If you live in an older neighborhoods, then the "ban" and "go" numbers are definitely non consecutive when you walk through the streets. You definitely need a map, unlike other systems.

The Japanese system is based on the old East-Asian address system, but Japan is the last country (to my understanding) using it. All the places I have been in China use a street number system. And apparently Korea is switching now.

Sapporo has a much better system than other places in Japan, because blocks are numbered based on their coordinates relative to a central point in the city. So addresses in Sapporo are written like N5W8 (five blocks north, 8 blocks west).

Sapporo has a much better system than other places in Japan, because blocks are numbered based on their coordinates relative to a central point in the city. So addresses in Sapporo are written like N5W8 (five blocks north, 8 blocks west).

We almost got it right, but we numbered the blocks instead of the streets, so N5W8 could cover a four-block spread with 16 corners and 16 frontage sections. D'oh!

The other problem is that Japanese have no clue about cardinal directions, so if I ask which way a restaurant is facing, which would cut the 16 possible frontages to a more manageable 4, the proprietor will be at a loss. "North? What the heck is that?"

My neighborhood doesn't even use building numbers. There are at least 20 buildings (mostly houses) with the same address. Apparently this area was a hotbead of resistance the last time the goverment tried to impose more order. The folks in my cho value their privacy over convenience. It can get awkward with the pizza guys, but it keeps us tight knit. Everyone knows who lives where (even though the family names are also often not on there or are too faded to be read.

Street names make far more sense.

Wasting time looking for places in Japan becomes tedious and troublesome - how many English teachers here sent out to varied places on a daily basis get lost & are late to start? - Loads.

Keeping tradition does not keep up with modern changes in society & infrastructure.