Study shows spanking boosts odds of mental illness

It seems like anything parents did before led to some mental illness. This is all we need - more excuses. The 2000s are officially the coddled-wussy generation. I had no idea my parents were to blame for the awful things I do!

Spare the rod, spoil the child, haha!

(Just don't do it to the head.)

Nah, actually I just talk to them reasonably. Makes them understand why.

Anyone who thinks that any one incident of spanking is exactly the same as another incident and turns them into a statistic has to be a bit lacking in logical reasoning.

Was the child actually punished? Did the child perhaps mistake being pushed or pulled away from a dangerous article as punishment? Did he/she know he was being punished? Why was the child punished? What were the circumstances? Does the child know that there's a line and if he steps over it, he gets a slap? Is there even a line? Are there house rules and does the child know them? When the child was slapped, was anything said or screamed at him?

Who writes this crap?

You can't say for sure that spanking causes a higher frequency of mental illness unless you have removed all other possible factors. Correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation.

I never hit our son when he was growing up but my wife did. He turned out fine. When he was around twelve years old, my wife told me, "I hit him all the time and it doesn't mean a thing to him. The only thing he cares about is the possibility that you might ever be disappointed in him. That is what keeps him being a good boy."

I don't buy it.

Parents have been spanking kids since time immemorial and suddenly "experts" tell us we have to stop and pamper our kids instead.

If anything, then lack of spanking will encourage the development a spoiled, weak-minded, me-first, I'm special, basket-case.

The type we all know so well

You can't say for sure that spanking causes a higher frequency of mental illness unless you have removed all other possible factors.

The article covers that: the parents’ genes may influence both their response to raising an unruly child as well as their likelihood of passing down certain ailments....Parents who are resorting to mechanisms of corporal punishment might themselves be at risk for depression and mental disorders.....there might be a hereditary factor going on in these families.....Future research could shed more light on the issue

lack of spanking will encourage the development a spoiled, weak-minded, me-first, I'm special, basket-case.

Rubbish, poppycock and fiddlesticks. All spanking does is teach a child that it's OK to use violence against those weaker than yourself in order to get them to obey you. It's not only not necessary, it's counter-productive.

Get ready, peeps, a "smack tax". Well somethings gotta pay for this study, no?

Maybe in Japan where I see many a parent smacking their kid on the head.

The article covers that:

The article mentions that they tried to account for some other possible factors. There could still be plenty of other factors involved. The study suggests possible causation. It doesn't prove anything. The results would need to be repeated several times at least in different studies by different scientists to account for any possible bias the scientists themselves might have, just for starters. If they started the study already believing that spanking causes mental illness then that could affect their results, obviously. You, yourself, seem to have a bias in favor of the results and are only too willing to believe them because they coincide with opinions you were already holding.

All spanking does is teach a child that it's OK to use violence against those weaker than yourself in order to get them to obey you.

Isn't it ok? It is, in fact, the way of the world.

Is there a government on the planet that doesn't use some form of violence against it's law-breaking citizens in order to get them to obey the laws?

There could still be plenty of other factors involved. The study suggests possible causation. It doesn't prove anything.

That's what the article says.

Researchers stressed that the study could not establish that spanking had actually caused these disorders in certain adults, only that there was a link between memories of such punishment and a higher incidence of mental problems.

You, yourself, seem to have a bias in favor of the results

Well yes, it seems perfectly obvious to me that physical violence is not conducive to a happy childhood. If anyone were to argue that it was, I think I would doubt that person's own mental stability.

Is there a government on the planet that doesn't use some form of violence against it's law-breaking citizens in order to get them to obey the laws?

So you're happy raising your kid to be a mini political dictator? Come again?

We don't need a study to know spanking affects the head... After all the longer nerve in the body is the one from the butt to the eyes. How I know ? If I kick your ass, you will have tears !

Between two and five percent of disorders like depression, anxiety, bipolar, anorexia or bulimia were attributable to physical punishment as a child, the study said.

Oh again... Those doctors should be jailed. They are harassing parents to cover their ignorance. They did it about autism. They were blaming the parents, even sending them (the parents) to the shrinks. Note that on a marketing point of view that makes sense. They can get 3 patients for the price of one, if for each mental case they also "treat" both parents now.

other disciplinary options such as positive reinforcement and removing rewards are viewed more favorably by doctors.

Have these "doctors" ever spent 2 hours with a child with mental issues ? I want to see them reacting to an epilepsy fit with "removing rewards".

If they started the study already believing that spanking causes mental illness then that could affect their results, obviously.

What bothers me me is they seem to have started the study ignoring (the fact established by really many studies) that for most of the conditions they list ( depression, anxiety, bipolar, anorexia or bulimia), symptoms may appear since the infancy, while the diagnostic of the illness is done many years later. They couldn't know if the persons that tell them about being " pushed, grabbed, shoved, slapped or hit " were not already having weird behavior. Were they being punished or were the parents grabbing them to prevent self-arm, pushing them to do normal daily task... I don't say the parental response is good, but well, if the illness was there already, that did not cause it.

Well yes, it seems perfectly obvious to me that physical violence is not conducive to a happy childhood. If anyone were to argue that it was, I think I would doubt that person's own mental stability.

This seems to me a bit of typical liberal overreacting. Spanking is not a big deal. I was spanked and I consider my childhood to have been very good. I guess I'm mentally unstable to think so.

So you're happy raising your kid to be a mini political dictator? Come again?

Who said dictator? I said every government does it. Democracies included.

Have these "doctors" ever spent 2 hours with a child with mental issues ? I want to see them reacting to an epilepsy fit with "removing rewards".

I take it you approve of spanking as an appropriate response to an epileptic fit? If not, I don't see the point of your raising it here. The article is talking about discipline, not the treatment of mental issues. Though I can easily see how a child who was spanked as punishment for his epileptic fits might well develop mental issues.

Isn't it ok? It is, in fact, the way of the world. Is there a government on the planet that doesn't use some form of violence against it's law-breaking citizens in order to get them to obey the laws?

But what do you think... do you personally think that it's ok?

do you personally think that it's ok?

I personally think that spanking is not harmful. Whether it is a successful deterrent of bad behavior is a different question. Just like any other punishment, it seeks to influence behavior through fear. Efficacy will vary according to the individual.

Just like any other punishment, it seeks to influence behavior through fear.

You think influencing behavior through fear is a good thing?

You think nobody should ever be punished?

I was spanked some times as a child... it had no effect on me. As in, it didn't work as a deterrent. But I was really disturbed when I overheard my mom talking about their spanking methods (which included spanking with some sort of a rubber pipe) with her religious buddies. Yes, very disturbing, indeed...

I see a single spank as an attention-getter, don't have to be hard and hurting.

Just like any like puppies will give a warning nip when a sibling gets too rowdy or simply out of hand.

None of them have mental probs, does my generation that is one where scolding and the healthy slap was common. FYI, non-slapped class-mates didn't turn out any better and still pulled pranks, swore, ergo did what we all did.

Using the term violence here is equivalent to grabbing your wife's arm being DV.

You think nobody should ever be punished?

I don't think that you can develop true conscience or morality if you just fear getting punished. There are consequences to your actions, and it's understanding that causal effect that makes us modify our behavior to do good. Nobody but ourselves can decide to be good or bad.

Using the term violence here is equivalent to grabbing your wife's arm being DV

In a discussion like this people tend to group together everything from the 'attention-getting' spank to full-blown child abuse and say either it's all OK or it's all Not OK. In the past Mr. Cleo has grabbed my arm as an 'attention-getter' when I was about to wander in the path of a cyclist I hadn't noticed. I thanked him for it. The day he grabs my arm with violent intent to 'punish' me for something is the day I become his ex.

You think nobody should ever be punished?

Little kids? No, they shouldn't. If your toddler is misbehaving it's because you haven't laid out the parameters of acceptable behaviour in a way the child understands. If anyone deserves punishment, it's the wayward parent. Be proactive in teaching him what's right and acceptable, and there should be little need to apply punishment once the child is older and able to listen to reason. When it is needed, it doesn't (shouldn't) have to be physical.

People do "bad" things because they don't (yet) understand their consequences. They wanted money, so they stole it, but they don't understand that the money belongs to somebody else and not to them. The child was told to not eat the candy, but he did, because he wanted to eat the candy. It's only "bad" if it affects somebody else, or even the person concerned.

You might say, "Ohh, but a child can't think rationally... blah blah" and that might be true, but aren't there perfectly well-behaved children who were never spanked? And aren't there also horrible children who are spanked all the time?

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

If I have to I'm taking off my belt. Get in here and drop your britches.

So you want to be disrespectful in school eh? You hit your teacher, eh? You're a man now?

Move those hands!!! I said put those hands down!!!

Son: The doctors said if you spank me I'll have mental disorders in the future. Father: The only mental disorder you have is talking back to your mother......WHAP!!! Son: I'mma call the police. My liberal soft teacher said this is Child Abuse. Father: This is discipline. I'm doing it cause you can't do it yo'SELF. Call your liberal homeroom teacher and I'll WHAP!!! her too. The only difference is she'll love it.

Don't talk back to your mother!! If you ever disrespect your teacher again I'll come down there and WHAP!!! you in front of the other kids.

You see - the real mental disorder can be corrected with a little home remedy.

Would you ever spank or hit an adult? It's strange that what we would never think of doing to an adult is fine as long as he/she is a child...

If your toddler is misbehaving...

I love how everyone thinks they are an expert in child rearing.

Would you ever spank or hit an adult?

Yes.

People do "bad" things because they don't (yet) understand their consequences.

That's ridiculous. Jails are full of people who fully understood what they were doing. It might be because of need, greed, or they didn't think what they were doing was wrong, to name a few possible reasons.

Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land

Yes.

Erm, you do realize that hitting an adult (not counting self-defense) is against the law?

Jails are full of people who fully understood what they were doing.

Jails are full of people who came from broken families, not people who were never spanked as children.

It might be because of need, greed, or they didn't think what they were doing was wrong, to name a few possible reasons.

Yes that's my entire point, they think that their own needs are greater than the others' needs.

You see - the real mental disorder can be corrected with a little home remedy

You reminded of the South Park episode with the commercial about curing ADD. Lol!

http://www.noob.us/humor/south-park-the-best-treatment-for-add/

I love how everyone thinks they are an expert in child rearing.

Yeah, well, I've got two fine young adults who are a credit to me and their father out in society making their mark, so I think I can say with some certainty that my methods work.

On the other hand, how many times do you have to spank your child every time he misbehaves before it sinks in that the spanking isn't working?

Erm, you do realize that hitting an adult (not counting self-defense) is against the law?

Yes, so? That wasn't part of your question, was it?

Jails are full of people who came from broken families, not people who were never spanked as children.

Really? Where did you come up with that info?

Regardless, you said "People do "bad" things because they don't (yet) understand their consequences." I'm saying when people break laws and rules they do understand what the consequences will be if they are caught and still choose to break them.

Yes that's my entire point,

You didn't make any such point. You said, initially, that people do bad things because they don't understand the consequences of their actions. It's a completely false statement unless you are referring to very young children only. From an early age and up, people understand what the consequences of their actions will be if they get away with doing something "bad", or if they are caught.

For some, the fear of punishment, whether it be a spanking, removal of a privilege, or, in adulthood, jail time will act act as a deterrent. For other others, the fear won't be much of a deterrent.

I think I can say with some certainty that my methods work.

That's great. There are lots of different child rearing methods that produce "fine young adults".

On the other hand, how many times do you have to spank your child every time he misbehaves before it sinks in that the spanking isn't working?

Nice loaded question. Your question assumes that spanking doesn't work, but that the stupid parents keep doing it. (They must be stupid to be spanking their kids, right?)

As I've already stated, I feel spanking is harmless, and the degree to which it will curb unwanted behavior would depend on the individual child. Just as with any other punishment, physical or not, for child or adult.

There are lots of different child rearing methods that produce "fine young adults".

Indeed there are. And if you had the choice (which of course you do) between a method that involves you deliberately inflicting physical pain on the child, and a method that doesn't, why on earth would you choose the painful option?

Your question assumes that spanking doesn't work, but that the stupid parents keep doing it.

If it did work, you would spank the kid a coupla times when he was tiny, and he would behave like an angel ever after. Parents are still spanking kids of school age because the earlier spankings didn't stop the bad behaviour. As for whether it's a stupid approach - Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results (Albert Einstein).

For some, the fear of punishment, whether it be a spanking, removal of a privilege, or, in adulthood, jail time will act act as a deterrent.

Only for those who have learned as kids that the only downside to being bad is the possibility of punishment if you are caught. A sense of self-respect and of respect for others is much more powerful.

cleo.

Would that "spank" be more or less painful than the kid dropping his bike and shinning his knee? Like I said we are talking about"attention getters"

And if he shinned his knees where were his pads.

It is that sudden shock of being touched suddenly/hit or screamed at that gets their attention all the talking to a crying child does zilch.

Don't see anyone advocation back-handing the child that it flies for a few.

why on earth would you choose the painful option?

Maybe it works better than non-painful options, sometimes, and for some people. Your whole argument is kind of based of the idea that pain is an evil to be avoided at all costs. It's really an unrealistic, extreme view, imo. Heaven forbid we feel any pain in life.

At the risk of repeating myself yet again, spanking is no big deal. When I was young, a much worse punishment than spanking was being grounded to the house, not being allowed to go out and play with my my friends. You keep going on about the "physical punishment" as if it's so barbaric and horrible, but non-physical punishment very often causes more pain (mental or emotional) than the physical type in my experience.

If it did work, you would spank the kid a coupla times when he was tiny, and he would behave like an angel ever after.

Huh? So, any method of punishment is totally ineffective if it doesn't stop 100% of a person's unwanted behavior after a couple applications? Obviously, this isn't true.

Only for those who have learned as kids that the only downside to being bad is the possibility of punishment if you are caught. A sense of self-respect and of respect for others is much more powerful.

What other downsides are there, the disapproval of others?

And, what does a sense of self-respect, etc... have to do with anything? Are you saying people disobey because they don't respect themselves or others? I don't see that at all.

Would that "spank" be more or less painful than the kid dropping his bike and shinning his knee?

Not sure what kind of scenario you're imagining there.....Hitting the kid before he gets on his bike will stop him falling off and shinning (do you mean skinning?) his knee? The kid is already riding his bike, and hitting him will stop him falling off? Or since the spank is 'punishment', you wait till he falls off and is crying, then hit him and that stops him falling off next time? In that case, wouldn't the sudden shock of a painful knee be more than enough to encourage him to be more careful? (Plus maybe a few parental bike-riding lessons..)

Sorry if this sounds facetious, but I'm genuinely not getting what you're saying here.

Best thing you can do with a crying child is hug him (and provide appropriate medical care if it's needed, of course).

Maybe it works better than non-painful options

We were assuming that both methods work equally well.

Your whole argument is kind of based of the idea that pain is an evil to be avoided at all costs.

Mmm, no, your argument is based on that premise - people obey the law only because they want to avoid the painful consequences of not obeying. I'm more concerned with avoiding the unnecessary infliction of pain. There's no joy to be had in hitting a child. At least, I hope there isn't. If there is you've got a whole different set of problems.

When I was young, a much worse punishment than spanking was being grounded to the house

You're talking about older kids. I'm talking about toddlers and small children, who hopefully aren't allowed out without supervision anyway. Get it right in the first 5-6 years and later discipline should be much, much easier.

And, what does a sense of self-respect, etc... have to do with anything?

Oh dear. If you don't understand that, I'm never going to get through to you. Giving a child a sense of self-respect (NOT an inflated sense of his own importance, which is completely different) together with respect for others is the very basis of raising a child.

Cleo I tried to make a pain-level comparison - obviously failed.

How hard is a span given by you and/or others that are doing/did it. Lets include our(my generation) & parents as people around me all got smacked and yet have good and solid families.

Sure the bubble-generation got a smacks(why else did it make onto tv, etc)?

Recall Tom & Jerry, Roadrunner, etc now BANNED in many locations.

Span = spank.

Typing from sons netbook which I am fixing.

It'S ME - OK, sorry, I obviously misunderstood. You were not advocating hitting the child for falling off his bike. I apologise.

Actually, it's a very good illustration: if the child gets hurt every time he falls off his bike, he soon learns to either 1) stay off the bike or 2) learn to ride it properly. In that sense, yes, pain does work.

The trouble with spanking is that the child only feels the pain when he gets caught out. He can (eg) poke his baby sister in the eye and get away with it (in fact be rewarded by her funny screaming reaction, and the palaver of Mum coming rushing out of the kitchen) every time except the one time Mum or Dad happens to catch him at it. So he gets punished once out of maybe 5 or 6, maybe more, times. The odds are good. The rewards override the potential pain. All he has to do is be more careful to see that Mum and Dad are out of the way. By the same token, he soon learns not to poke himself in the eye because it hurts every time, whether Mum and Dad are there or not. The odds are lousy, he gets no benefit from it, and it simply isn't worth it.

Out of a nation of 350 million people they surveyed a whole 653. I have to agree with the poster above who basically said that some one is trying to prove a pet theory, or perhaps is trying to get more money for their so called research. There are far too many variables here . . . Did they sample all social-economic, ethnic, race groups equally? Did they determine if the people with the mental illness possibly had it as a child? Did they determine if the child came from a loving family or a dysfunctional one? What about, is the adult successful in work, love, family or are they a criminal? How can you publish a single study that has not been repeated at least once, and as some one else said what about having other scientists repeat the study? And is this phenomenon confined to just the U.S., what about other countries? To me the study is bogus and is some one's attempt at getting attention.

Cleo - You cherry picked your argument and it's out of context. Where's the rest of the story? Where's the mom or dad that sits down and explains what he did wrong? You think they're just going for pain?

Give other cultures a little more credit. You have your way, they have their way. Quit trying to use the law to raise their children too. You are simply trying to ensure that the other family has more difficulty raising their children and better your own children's chances of success.

It's amazing how mothers try to destroy other families. You don't like their attire, their food, their culture and their way of parenting. Yet, at the same token you let your daughter walk out of the house dressed like a teenage prostitute going to a Britney Spears concert. You didn't spank your daughter. The other family spanked. Their daughter is an educated lady. Your daughter is swinging from the pole trying to make it rain.

I believe in spanking because it's discipline. Only gentlemen and ladies from my household with a strong religious background and good manners. Trust me, it works.

I'm never going to get through to you.

Well, if by "get through to me" you mean convince me that people who weren't spanked as children have more self-respect and respect for others than those who were spanked and never misbehave or break the rules, then no, you won't.

Blah Blah Blah. I want to see the counter research. How do kids turn out when their parents do not spank them? Politicians? Lawyers?

NetNinja -

Where's the mom or dad that sits down and explains what he did wrong?

Explaining to the kid what he did wrong is good. Proactively teaching the kid that it's wrong before he does it (ergo he doesn't do it) is better.

Quit trying to use the law to raise their children too.

Sorry, where did I invoke the law?

You are simply trying to ensure that the other family has more difficulty raising their children and better your own children's chances of success.

Sorry, can you explain how describing to people how I successfully raised my kids does what you claim? I would have said it did the exact opposite - gives them a greater chance of success and of competing against my kids at the same level.

at the same token you let your daughter walk out of the house dressed like a teenage prostitute

My daughter never, ever, left the house looking even vaguely like a prostitute - she was brought up to have more self-respect for herself than that.

You didn't spank your daughter. The other family spanked. Their daughter is an educated lady. Your daughter is swinging from the pole trying to make it rain.

You've got the wrong mother, Ninja. I didn't spank my daughter. She is an educated lady with a good job, great career, wonderful husband, beautiful daughter of her own, a very happy family life and all the tools she needs to raise her own daughter successfully. And thankfully, no need for any strong religious background to act as a crutch.

Stranger -

if by "get through to me" you mean convince me that people who weren't spanked as children have more self-respect and respect for others than those who were spanked and never misbehave or break the rules, then no, you won't.

No, that isn't what I mean at all. You have it back to front, which is interesting since you were so concerned about correlation and causation. Children who are brought up to have self-respect and respect for others are better-behaved, less likely to misbehave and break the rules that they have had properly explained to them. They don't need spanking (assuming that any child ever needs spanking, which I'm not buying).

Laurenço Iscariot Shells -

How do kids turn out when their parents do not spank them? Politicians? Lawyers?

They turn out just fine, assuming that 'not spanking' means being actively involved in the child's upbringing and not simply leaving them to run wild. From the kids in families I know that have raised their kids proactively, I can give you a police officer, a banker, an aircraft engineer, a distributions manager, a TV director, a hotel manager and a doctor. From the kids in families I know that relied on spanking and yelling, I can show you a goodly number who failed to find regular employment after graduating from university - the more enterprising take working holidays overseas, many of the rest are neets or baito. Not all follow this pattern of course, but it is what I see around me,.

In America we all go and give the bad kids a good ole spanking when they is bad,. We also teach them to love God and teh baby Jesus and they become good guys like the rest of Americans. Them people that say otherwise are jest envious of our superior society and peacefull nation, nyuk nyuk nyuk.

netnunja is a troll...all posts looking to instigate an emotional response. Maybe you were spanked too much as a kid.

I just think you are wrong is all

The feeling is mutual. :-)

but keep playing the child rearing expert

While you keep playing the - what? Telepathy expert? Telling me I really mean the opposite of what I say? Good luck with that.

Just as well we aren't face-to-face, you might try to persuade me with a spanking.

Telling me I really mean the opposite of what I say?

You are the one claiming you meant the opposite of what you actually said. Nothing to do with telepathy. My parents taught me to read between spankings.

Maybe with fewer spankings you might have learned the difference between A follows B and B follows A.

Maybe with more spankings you might have learned to stand by what you say, instead of trying to twist things around at every opportunity.

I do stand by what I say. Not my fault if your powers of understanding are not up to par.

Years ago when I was looking for ways to train my dog I heard of a new method called positive training that didn't involve physical punishment. Up until that time I 'knew' the best way to house-train a dog was to rub his nose in it and yell at him when he made a mistake indoors, to yank hard on his choke chain when he pulled, to knee him in the gut when he jumped up....But a new method that produced better results, without hurting the dog or turning me into a person who hits her dogs? I wanted to know more. I learned, and now my dogs are known in the neighbourhood for their good behaviour.

On this thread people are being told there is a method of raising their kids to be happy, healthy, productive members of society that does not involve spanking or physically harming the child. I would have thought people would be eager to know more. But no.....they want to continue spanking. I cannot get my head around this. Do you enjoy hitting your child? If so, maybe the idea that the parents of spanked children may be passing on inherited problems has some truth to it. If you don't enjoy hitting your child, and it isn't necessary, why on earth would you insist on continuing to dole out physical punishment?

I genuinely do not understand this. Can someone please explain?

Can someone please explain?

Of course, you are 100% correct, but some people like an argument and some people just do not want or like to change their old ways and ideas. In history, there were many who didn`t want to change things like slavery, apartheid or even child labor. In reality, children do not need "punishments" at all, but punishment is the easy and emotional response to anger and a desire to control, not only for many parents but also for many teachers. It is just too difficult and/or time-consuming for some parents to use child psychology instead punishment.

@cleo

That is your opinion on spanking, but it doesn't meant that it's the right opinion for everyone. I was spanked, my siblings were and we turned out fine. I rarely spank my child, only as the last resort, if all else fails, then I will do it, on my kids it works, that's all I can say, I am a great parent, I talk to my kids and explain them the difference between right and wrong, but sometimes, talking doesn't necessarily always do the trick. If you can raise a child and the child doesn't need it, fine, more power to you. When I was a child. I didn't spanked as much as my sisters, they were getting it constantly, but I knew the consequences and straightened up quickly, however, my sisters took a longer time to get the message, os my point is, it depends, but you cannot clear cut and say, it doesn't work or it will make a kid want to use violence, because if that were true, living in Japan, I would have to be a violent person everyday if you think about it. So you can concretely make that kind of argument IMHO.

Bollocks, I suppose whilst this didnt include sexual abuse etc, it did include spanking which was nothing to do with teaching children so much as the parent getting pissed off with them. My father spanked us, and I can proudly state that every child of his is very well mannered, kind, responsible and hardworking, but then this study would point out the string of Manic depression that has been in the family for generations and somehow use that as vindication for its results.

Spanking when done properly is very good education for a child, as is reward, one or the other alone is ridiculous.

@Cleo Looks like you've awarded yourself "Mother of the Year" With no definition of "Successful" we can't really argue with the self-proclaimed Mother of the Year.

Your way is the best way, in your mind, I'm sure.

In all fairness, like most women, you've got too much of your ego riding on this. The children that came out of your womb came out to be little angels that you never ever had to raise your hand to. They're just perfect little darlings that follow Mother Goose out to the pond.

Come on over to 1300 Jackson Street and meet Mrs. Bebe and her kids. Have you ever met Bebe's kids. 365 days a year they run at full steam thrashing everything in their path. You've probably never been to that side of the tracks. On the other side of the tracks we've got knuckleheads and brats and parents who are putting everything they've got into preparing their children for the future.

Your idea of raising children comes right out of a Disney story. These kids need to "whipped" into shape. Can't understand why you have a problem with it. Go back to slavery days Anglo-Saxons, perhaps your ancestors, were "whipping" them all the time. What's that saying? Gotta be mean to keep em keen.

Now of course, these children aren't being "whipped" but their parents have to instill some manners in them. Most come from Christian backgrounds. We know discipline is necessary. *Disclaimer I said "Christian", not Catholic. I don't agree with the way Catholic priests discipline the boys.

Seriously, Cleo, you are great poster. I think you took it personal and that was not my intention. It's a debate and I'm simply going at you for that and that alone.

You've got to allow people to spank their children. It doesn't give the honest parent pleasure to spank or discipline their children BUT some of us, including myself, are very glad our parents did just that. I'm alive and well, and living a full life thanks to parents that wouldn't allow me to act a fool.

The bond between father and son is better for it.

You need not look any further than the local train to see why spanking, especially for boys, is very important. Either you discipline your children or someone will discipline them later for you.

@billyshears A troll? Nooo, I'm quite handsome in fact. I'm quite the opposite. Well mannered, gentlemanly, considerate and respectful of others. Whenever I stepped out of line my behavior was corrected appropriately.

Every now and then here on JT we'll get into a heated debate. We find each other on opposite sides of the line. Then there are times where we all fall right in line, unanimous in our beliefs. We don't do name calling here. We avoid profanity. Some of us were little angels and through one simple lesson learned not to do any of the above. Some of us had to be popped by dad when we slipped out the F'word.

Lets take the "N" word for example. The first time I said it I got belted. I was just a kid. I said it in the car. Dad, pulled over and I got taxed. Some lessons in life are understood later when we become adults. My family wanted us to rise above that. Spanking works.

Some parents who never spank their children go through hell. This is very cultural thing we are talking about. I can only assume that for Anglo-Saxon who were once slave owners promised themselves that MY child will never be spanked or whipped. Since they see nothing wrong with themselves they see no reason to spank or physically discipline their children.

African-American families have never been spared the rod. When we lost the master we picked that whip and started lashing ourselves. This doesn't literally apply in this day and age but we do know that discipline and parenting go hand and hand. Those trips to the principal's office require time off from work and we don't get paid for those hours. Yes, a spanking is in order.

If you'd like to see someone trolling just look for Jon Heder.

African-American families have never been spared the rod. When we lost the master we picked that whip and started lashing ourselves. This doesn't literally apply in this day and age but we do know that discipline and parenting go hand and hand. Those trips to the principal's office require time off from work and we don't get paid for those hours. Yes, a spanking is in order

Oh, I know exactly where you're coming from!

It seems that people are divided into two camps: you either believe in physical punishment, or you don't. Haven't we decided a long time ago that hitting a child in any way is mostly negative?

I was spanked, my siblings were and we turned out fine.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that dog training is the same as raising a child, but there are parallels. The dogs I trained with nose-rubbing and chain-yanks were well-behaved dogs. It could be argued that 'they turned out fine'. But I never enjoyed the nose-rubbing and chain-yanking; I did it because I 'knew' the dog needed it. Then I found a way that produced better results without nose-rubbing and chain-yanking. Training became joyful, not a task.

I'm not saying that spanking kids 'doesn't work'. It's one method. BUT there are other methods that do not involve doing this thing that surely no parent enjoys doing. Granted, the positive approach demands more effort from the parent, more planning and greater proactivity; learn about it and you might decide you can't do it, it isn't for you. But to simply insist that you want to keep on hitting your child??

Well mannered, gentlemanly, considerate and respectful of others

lol Your JUL. 07, 2012 - 12:52PM post would suggest that is not so.

They're just perfect little darlings that follow Mother Goose out to the pond

They were far from being perfect little angels. Raising them was hard work. As I mentioned above, it took effort, planning and struggling to be one step ahead of them all the way. And it worked. They're still not little angels - but they are upstanding, respectable members of society. Mother of the Year? No - but I am very, very proud of them both.

meet Mrs. Bebe and her kids. Have you ever met Bebe's kids. 365 days a year they run at full steam thrashing everything in their path.

Some parents who never spank their children go through hell.

I think you're confusing 'not smacking' with 'providing no discipline or guidance whatsoever'. I repeat myself, but positive child-raising requires greater effort on the part of the parent, not less.

Go back to slavery days Anglo-Saxons, perhaps your ancestors, were "whipping" them all the time.

What?? You're equating the relationship between parent and child with the relationship between a slave-owner and his slaves? Do you realise what you're saying? (On a sidenote, not that it's at all relevant, No, my Anglo-Saxon ancestors whipped nobody: they were serfs, manual labourers and coal miners from way, way back. More likely to be on the receiving end of the whip than wielding it.)

I take it you approve of spanking as an appropriate response to an epileptic fit?

spanking is "defined as pushing, grabbing, shoving, slapping or hitting". So of course, I don't mean spanking on the bum specifically. But very clearly certain kids have difficult behaviors, unexpected... I said epileptic fit as everybody can imagine it's something parents don't know how to deal with. But there are many less spectacular things. The kid without problem doesn't get much spanking/lecturing, because he quickly understand the rules. It's totally clear that the kids with the most problems are those that get the more frequently "physically controlled" by adults. Not as "method of discipline" but because everything else failed. Adults don't let the kid refuse food 2 days in a row, nor jump into the river, and they don't abandon him in the commercial center at night as they close... if he doesn't listen to the positive thinking discussion. So the study is biased, IMO.

The article is talking about discipline, not the treatment of mental issues.

The article is about a study concerning mental issues and the memories of patients. Maybe we don't get the same.

spanking is "defined as pushing, grabbing, shoving, slapping or hitting". So of course, I don't mean spanking on the bum specifically. But very clearly certain kids have difficult behaviors, unexpected... I said epileptic fit as everybody can imagine it's something parents don't know how to deal with.

Let's get this clear. So if a child has an epileptic fit, you would expect the parent, not knowing how to deal with it, to push, grab, slap or hit the child though perhaps not on the bum?

Leaving aside the epilepsy, I think we're on the same page with regard to seeing spanking as the response of a parent who doesn't know what else to do.

The article is about a study concerning mental issues and the memories of patients. Maybe we don't get the same.

The article says that people who were spanked as children as a form of discipline have a higher likelihood of showing signs of mental issues in adult life. It is not talking about parents spanking children with epilepsy or mental issues.

Let's get this clear. So if a child has an epileptic fit, you would expect the parent, not knowing how to deal with it, to push, grab, slap or hit the child though perhaps not on the bum?

I expect a number of parents and other adults, either losing cold blood or seeing no other practical way to "secure" the child on location. That would happen more or less, depending on the context of the fit, if that's the first, etc. I know for a fact that does happen.

The article says that people who were spanked as children as a form of discipline have a higher likelihood of showing signs of mental issues in adult life. It is not talking about parents spanking children with epilepsy or mental issues.

Children with not-yet-diagnosed mental issues are necessarily included in their study sample.

From four to seven percent of more serious problems including personality disorders, obsessive-compulsive disorder and intellectual disabilities were associated with such punishments in childhood.

That's likely to be kids with symptoms. Not that we can tell. Well that invalids the research.

Cos

Thank you for additional arguments in support of my statement above. The study is flawed and needs to be redone with a larger sample and better selection and with controls just like any good study.

All this article accomplished is to cause the two side of parenting to get into a rather heated debate on who is correct on this site.

I expect a number of parents and other adults, either losing cold blood or seeing no other practical way to "secure" the child on location.

What does 'securing' a child experiencing an epileptic fit have to do with smacking as a form of discipline?

I grew up thinking getting hit was normal. As an adult I looked back and thought I deserved it. And I always had the idea that lots of kids needed it, or at least the threat of it. And most adults I've ever had a discussion with have all agreed that kids these days just need a belting now and then - and of course most of the older adults say they were glad they were hit.

But, I've changed my mind. I've never once felt good about smacking a kid. And absolutely every time I've had a terrible feeling and thought that there has to be a better way.

For those esp of the older generation, if you honestly think back to the times you were smacked, hit or even belted, don't you wish your parents could have just talked? I'm not bitter against my parents because I know they were just doing what they thought was right. (There are people who think it's wrong NOT to smack - "spare the rod and spoil the child".

There's got to be a better way of educating, teaching, making a child learn things without hitting them. If as parents you decided that you would never again hit or smack your child, you'd probably find that you'd start thinking about really creative and good ways to raise children.

Maybe one reason why people want to defend spanking is that they don't want to admit that their parents were wrong, or that they themselves could have avoided spanking their own children?

So, I'm a reformed smacker - but it took a paradigm shift.

In the end with some kids it might take 100 times to get them to not do something. If you could achieve the same result another way, I'd rather do 100 other things than smack 100 times. If some kids get used to only responding to a bigger adult hitting them, then they become impossible to handle for teachers and others who aren't allowed to hit.

I think this research is rather pointless and probably not valid. The test set up leaves a lot to be desired - but given the nature of the subject, about all that can be done. The results are so minor that combined with the test setup, results in a meaningless study.

I always wonder why people single out corporal punishment from other punishments, which can be as violent. I am not for spanking myself, but as a punishment, I don't think it in itself will lead to problems later on.

I think what will lead to problems are much more serious issues. If parents punish in anger. If a fair and consistent boundary isn't established, etc.

Kids need an environment that provides clear boundaries of acceptable behavior that are consistently enforced. This backed up by love and affection should lead to a balanced adult.

@Yasakuni

To a point I agree with you, but to a point. As I said, earlier, some kids don't need to be spanked or yelled at, they do what they are told to do and you can just talk to them without any physical punishment, but on the other hand, there are some kids where no of that will help. Example, like in NY a few weeks the kids that taunted the woman on the bus, sorry, if that were my kid, you can bet your life, I would have tore him one and that's the problem with many of these kids, NO FEAR! I am defending spanking because for some people it works, worked in my family, we are all high achievers and I thank my parents for the times they had to reel me in. It's very simple, some people here are against it and it doesn't work for them fine, but for the rest, limited physical discipline as a last resort has helped many, it just depends what side of the fence you want to be on. For me, I don't want to say things 100 times, why? That part of your analogy, I don't agree with at all. I don't think that is necessary and I think in that sense it is a waste of time, I don't have that kind of time to do that and before you say, I am not trying, you don't know me or my surroundings and situation. I am a very good father, but I am strict and I will ask my kids..once, twice...even three times, but after that, when it starts to take a obscene amount of time, then I will give a warning and a short explanation of what is on the horizon and what to expect and THEN if all else fails, then I will resort to spanking, so I make sure I lay everything out as a father, honestly and fairly. I don't enjoy it, but if there is no other way, then I will. Again, for some people, they won't cross that line, and there are those that think the complete opposite, it all depends on how you see it and what works for you and FOR ME, I think it is a vital tool.

bass4funk Well said!

Since I just got into the debate here, I am sure some one is going to rip me for this . . . BUT . . . corporal punishment is not just a human thing, I've seen lots of nature documentaries where a parent animal or an older sibling animal dishes it out to the youngster. Seems spanking isn't just a human punishment. I'm sure that many of you are going to say that we are supposed to be above the animals, but perhaps some things are just universal. Actually those of us the believe in physical punishment could learn from our friends in the animal kingdom, when they punish is is just enough to make a point and seldom more out of possible anger.

As I said, earlier, some kids don't need to be spanked or yelled at, they do what they are told to do

Why is that, do you think? (Hint - it's unlikely to be because they were born little angels unable to do any wrong.)

like in NY a few weeks the kids that taunted the woman on the bus, sorry, if that were my kid, you can bet your life, I would have tore him one

Would you seriously expect your child to be involved in that kind of behaviour? If so, would you still say that spanking works? I'd bet those kids had no discipline at all, or had the kind of discipline that depends on being caught out. What Mum & Dad don't see, they can't spank for. Back in the day when spanking was the accepted way to discipline kids, I remember lots of my brother's mates were little angels when their parents were around, and hell-raisers when they weren't.

that many of you are going to say that we are supposed to be above the animals

Yup.