Racist history of blackface began in the 1830s

Interestingly enough, I've had this exact conversation with my black buddy

NOOOOOOO not the Black friend excuse. Say it isn't so! That's the excuse everybody uses when trying to justify some kind of racist behavior. It is not a get out jail free card.

Interestingly enough, I've had this exact conversation with my black buddy

LOL! Caucasian people's excuse to behave inappropriately. My (insert ethnicity) friend/buddy...............

Very unoriginal!

You essentially did. You've claimed there is never an excuse for blackface, and that it is always wrong, due to it being racially insensitive. So if this kid is doing something that is inherently racially wrong, it's pretty much the same thing as calling him a racist.

Strawman! You are now putting words in other people's mouths. By the way, a person who is not inherently racist can still behave in a racist way.

Did their actions actually case any harm" is irresponsible, and only promotes an unhealthy imbalance.

If members of the group are offended then they are being harmed. Are you now telling ethnicities what should or should not harm them?

Your idea of intent has no merit here. A person who have no intentions of harming anyone on any given day can still be sent to prison for murder. Their intent only reduces the sentence, but it doesn't absolve them of their actions if they were the direct cause of a death. That only happens if you are Caucasian police who uses excessive force in minorities in the US.

When someone says, 'I didn't mean it that way,' well, their real question should be not ‘Did I mean it?' but, ‘Am I causing harm?'"

I think that pushing this course, without also counseling those who are offended to ask themselves the "real questions" of "did they mean it? Did their actions actually case any harm" is irresponsible, and only promotes an unhealthy imbalance.

So finally admit that you don't know what you are talking about!

I understand that you've decided to misinterpret my words to come up with that incorrect conclusion.

Your innermost thoughts don't change the impact blackface has on the people of all races around you, or the way it reinforces stereotypes and the idea that blackness is, at best, a joke.

Interestingly enough, I've had this exact conversation with my black buddy - he was the one who brought me over from thinking like you, that blackface is always bad, to evaluating based on the merits of the incident at hand. His (nearly exact quote): "it does no one any good to call something racist without looking at whether or not it actually is".

When someone says, 'I didn't mean it that way,' well, their real question should be not ‘Did I mean it?' but, ‘Am I causing harm?'"

It's important that people evaluate their own actions in this regards, but it's equally important that those who are offended also evaluate whether there is justification in their offense. It's a responsibility of both parties, not of only one side. As I said clearly earlier, people doing blackface with the intention of ridicule deserve condemnation. And those who are offended at someone dressing up to imitate someone they look up to, need to re-examine that which makes them angry at that which was meant to pay respect, not to cause offense.

Strawman argument! No one on this thread called the kid racist! Once again, you don't know what you are talking about.

You essentially did. You've claimed there is never an excuse for blackface, and that it is always wrong, due to it being racially insensitive. So if this kid is doing something that is inherently racially wrong, it's pretty much the same thing as calling him a racist.

@Strangerland

Maybe - I was using the story posted earlier in the thread, as an example. I didn't post it, and don't know the specifics of the story, and if they turn out there was more to the story, then swap out the story with any kid who dressed up in blackface in the '80s to look Mr. T. The point isn't a specific story, it's that if there is no intent to ridicule black people, then blackface isn't inherently racist, it's a form of imitation.

So finally admit that you don't know what you are talking about! If you would taken the time to read then you have put your foot in your mouth.

But we have a poster above claiming that intent does not matter, it's actions. By his definition, these comics, and in fact, any male who has ever dressed up as a woman on Halloween in their lives, is sexist. And so would all transgender women, since their intent does not matter.

Your innermost thoughts don't change the impact blackface has on the people of all races around you, or the way it reinforces stereotypes and the idea that blackness is, at best, a joke.

When someone says, 'I didn't mean it that way,' well, their real question should be not ‘Did I mean it?' but, ‘Am I causing harm?'"

Maybe they don't, but if someone calls a kid a racist because he dresses up as someone he idolizes, the problem is with the person calling the kid a racist, not the kid.

Strawman argument! No one on this thread called the kid racist! Once again, you don't know what you are talking about.

kid who dressed up in blackface in the '80s to look Mr. T. The point isn't a specific story, it's that if there is no intent to ridicule black people, then blackface isn't inherently racist, it's a form of imitation.

Throughout the 80's there were many examples of comedy shows where people imitated Mr.T.

1) Not one of them use blackface because he wasn't having it. They would have the look without the skin tone. 2) Mr. T refused to be in scenes when Hannibal wore blackface on the hit show the A-Team.

3) Finally, on his cartoon series the White kid who idolized him never wore blackface but dressed like him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfMD7GQ877k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLaPjOdLZhM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz1AdzVLnuY&t=11s

So, the idol you keep referring to didn't accept blackface. Despite Mr. T not liking blackface, you think it is respectful and acceptable to dress in blackface and ask him for an autograph because you don't believe you are racist?

LOL! Nothing you have said makes sense!

There's been a lot of male comedians who dressed in drag, sometimes with fake breasts - but it's for acting and/or comedic effect. It certainly is not meant to be sexist in this regard.

But we have a poster above claiming that intent does not matter, it's actions. By his definition, these comics, and in fact, any male who has ever dressed up as a woman on Halloween in their lives, is sexist. And so would all transgender women, since their intent does not matter.

Jonathan Winters was a great comic who dressed and portrayed people of both genders and various ages, and it was good. Robin Williams did that too. These people were laughing with everyone, not at anyone.

And what about a kid who isn't trying to make anyone laugh, and is just dressing up as someone he idolizes?

Is this not the same kid?

Maybe - I was using the story posted earlier in the thread, as an example. I didn't post it, and don't know the specifics of the story, and if they turn out there was more to the story, then swap out the story with any kid who dressed up in blackface in the '80s to look Mr. T. The point isn't a specific story, it's that if there is no intent to ridicule black people, then blackface isn't inherently racist, it's a form of imitation.

My argument is that Caucasians are usually the ones trying to deny another ethnicities experience and tell members of the offended group how to feel.

And if/when they do that, the offense is valid. But not when it's some kid dressing up as someone he idolizes.

It doesn't matter what someones intentions are.

Yes it does. Sorry, you don't just get to discount it that way because you say so.

People of color don't usually like other people (usually Caucasians) in blackface to pretend that ethnicity.

Maybe they don't, but if someone calls a kid a racist because he dresses up as someone he idolizes, the problem is with the person calling the kid a racist, not the kid.

SilvafanFeb. 10 09:27 pm JST

My argument is that Caucasians are usually the ones trying to deny another ethnicities experience and tell members of the offended group how to feel. It doesn't matter what someones intentions are. People of color don't usually like other people (usually Caucasians) in blackface to pretend that ethnicity. And ignoring their wishes like this mother is disrespectful and arrogant.

I remember seeing Traci Ullman on TV portraying the role of a black woman. She had on makeup (not blackface), her lips were temporarily silicone injected for 'real' effect and this role was no way meant to be degrading or demeaning to black Americans. She looked more 'realistic', and certainly didn't look ridiculous like the joker in this picture. She was portraying a black American woman, seriously - not a mockery. I've also seen her portray a woman from India in a similar role. There is a huge difference between actresses like her and these stupid mockery minstrels.

StrangerlandFeb. 10 06:44 am JSTWould it be OK for that same to change his eyelids for costume because idolize an Asian or Is it ok for him to wear a nose prosthetic to look Caucasian?

What about guys who stuff some fake boobs in their clothes and put on makeup for halloween - as millions and millions of men have done. Why is this ok?

There's been a lot of male comedians who dressed in drag, sometimes with fake breasts - but it's for acting and/or comedic effect. It certainly is not meant to be sexist in this regard. Jonathan Winters was a great comic who dressed and portrayed people of both genders and various ages, and it was good. Robin Williams did that too. These people were laughing with everyone, not at anyone.

LudditeFeb. 10 04:55 am JSTI really don't understand what is so entertaining about blackface. I remember as a kid being bored stiff watching the Black and White Minstrel Show.

Yes, it was terrible but hugely popular. It ran for years. Ditto The Good Old Days.

'Good Old Days'? I miss a lot of humorous things from the past too before it got too unfunny. But imitating and degrading and putting down a whole race or ethnic group is just plain stupid and not funny at all. This guy in the article picture looks absolutely stupid!

I once saw the comic Paul Rodriguez (he opened up for Smokey Robinson) who lampooned stereotypes people have of various ethnic groups (incl. whites) but he didn't make fun of them. He didn't put them in the shredder. There's a huge difference in parodying a stereotype and promoting one, whether it's a positive one or a negative one.

This blackface stuff was never meant to promote or even lampoon positive stereotypes about black people, it degrades them, it's out and out racism, and it's just plain disgusting.

Well, I just read the article, I found this particularly interesting from that article!

'This mother has acknowledged what she was doing was wrong but decided she was going to "grow some balls" and do it anyway with complete disregard to whoever she was going to offend. Can't let a little bit of racism get in the way of "Book Week". This is her "Queening" moment. Queen of what?'

Hmm....Silvafan has a point! :)

I'm not sure that you and I are talking about the same thing. I have no idea what kid you are referring to; I have been talking about the Australian kid who dressed up as a footballer he liked, and did blackface. Now, if you believe blackface is always racist, and therefore this kid was wrong and racist, I simply cannot agree.

Is this not the same kid?

Mother puts blackface on her white son as he dresses up as AFL star Nic Naitanui for the school book parade - but is it real or a social media stunt?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3757803/Mother-puts-blackface-white-son-dress-AFL-star-Nic-Naitanui-school-book-parade.html

Yes, it is.

If you think that this kid was simply a kid emulating someone he liked, then we're in agreement.

> You didn't make an argument. You posted a link. Let me know what your argument is, and feel free to post a link to support it. Don't expect me to go to some other site to try to figure out an argument that you are too lazy to make. I tell the righties the same thing.

It was the mother's idea not the kid. She acknowledged that she knew it was offensive before she dressed her son up, but she said she didn't care if she hurt other people's feelings because she wanted her son to win the competition. In fact, it was a book competition and soccer, athletics, or sports had nothing to do with the competition. She did it to get attention, and it didn't matter that it offended another ethnic group.

If you read the article then you would know. In addition, people who of the the same ethnicitiy commented in that article that it was insulting to their people. No Americans, so where is your argument?

1) The mother knew it was offensive and didn't care.

2) Members of the same group found it offensive and spoke out. These ethnicities are constantly telling

everyone that is offensive. It isn't up for debate.

3) You didn't know enough about the story to even make sense and didn't read it, so you selectively chose to

be ignorant.

My argument is that Caucasians are usually the ones trying to deny another ethnicities experience and tell members of the offended group how to feel. It doesn't matter what someones intentions are. People of color don't usually like other people (usually Caucasians) in blackface to pretend that ethnicity. And ignoring their wishes like this mother is disrespectful and arrogant.

You didn't make an argument. You posted a link. Let me know what your argument is, and feel free to post a link to support it. Don't expect me to go to some other site to try to figure out an argument that you are too lazy to make. I tell the righties the same thing.

Mother puts blackface on her white son as he dresses up as AFL star Nic Naitanui for the school book parade - but is it real or a social media stunt?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3757803/Mother-puts-blackface-white-son-dress-AFL-star-Nic-Naitanui-school-book-parade.html

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. How is flattery, and looking up to someone, not respecting them?

When the people that you imitate tell you that they are offended by it! The people the kid was imitating said his costume was offensive to them. On top of that, the mother of the kid said she knew it was offensive, but she didn't care because she wanted her child to win. 

Mother puts blackface on her white son as he dresses up as AFL star Nic Naitanui for the school book parade - but is it real or a social media stunt?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3757803/Mother-puts-blackface-white-son-dress-AFL-star-Nic-Naitanui-school-book-parade.html

LOL! You just lost your whole argument! BOOM MIC DROP!

@Strangerland

On the contrary, if an American tries to say that is bad, then they are telling people how to feel about their own history and culture - exactly what you just condemned.

HAHAHA! You don't even make sense! Americans aren't telling you this kid was wrong!

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. How is flattery, and looking up to someone, not respecting them?

When the people that you imitate tell you that they are offended by it! The people the kid was imitating said his costume was offensive to them. On top of that, the mother of the kid said she knew it was offensive, but she didn't care because she wanted her child to win.

Mother puts blackface on her white son as he dresses up as AFL star Nic Naitanui for the school book parade - but is it real or a social media stunt?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3757803/Mother-puts-blackface-white-son-dress-AFL-star-Nic-Naitanui-school-book-parade.html

LOL! You just lost your whole argument! BOOM MIC DROP!

It seems you like so many others think that African culture is fair game, but the other cultures and people around the world should be respected.

Um, you seem to have missed my comment:

I think that when it's done with intent to ridicule, it's as despicably racist as anything.

So no, I don't think African culture is 'fair game'. And as I said:

what about some kid who dressed up as Mr. T for Halloween in the '80s? I didn't, but I would have - I loved Mr. T. And I would have wanted to be black, with the blackface. This isn't an intent to ridicule, for me it would have been an attempt to impersonate someone I looked up to as a role model.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. How is flattery, and looking up to someone, not respecting them?

Would it be OK for that same to change his eyelids for costume because idolize an Asian or Is it ok for him to wear a nose prosthetic to look Caucasian?

What about guys who stuff some fake boobs in their clothes and put on makeup for halloween - as millions and millions of men have done. Why is this ok?

In doesn't matter what you think because you are not apart of the offended group. If it is offending to that group then it is offending to that group. Aren't you always spouting on about respecting Japanese culture. Telling people how to feel about their own history and culture is quite arrogant and disrespectful.

I haven't told anyone how they should feel about their whole history and culture. As I pointed out, it's racially charged in America. In other places it's not necessarily. Look at the story of the kid in the thread who dressed up in blackface in Australia - it was in a country without that history, by a kid who was trying to be his idol. On the contrary, if an American tries to say that is bad, then they are telling people how to feel about their own history and culture - exactly what you just condemned.

I really don't understand what is so entertaining about blackface. I remember as a kid being bored stiff watching the Black and White Minstrel Show.

Yes, it was terrible but hugely popular. It ran for years. Ditto The Good Old Days.

Would it be OK for that same to change his eyelids for costume because idolize an Asian or Is it ok for him to wear a nose prosthetic to look Caucasian?

There's been plenty of stupid movies where white actors wore makeup to lampoon and ridicule Oriental people - portraying stereotypes of these people with this clichéd 'ah so' crap. And this picture only highlughts how ridiculous blackface and minstrel shows are, it's a disgrace.

I once saw a 'mature humor' comedic show in a Lake Tahoe casino with juvenile 4th grade level sexual jokes and a horrible Diana Ross imitator in blackface. I was just 21 but I could see that it was absolutely stupid and offensive. Not funny at all.

Then we have these really cheap stupid movies where white actors don't bother with makeup portraying Native Americans in the stereotype of - you guessed it, wild savages who kill, burn and steal white women.

There have been a couple of comments about The Black and White Minstrel Show which was aired in Britain in the 60s :a show beloved by the mums and dads and hated by their children.I loathed the show but I CAN declare with total honesty that not only did I not realise that the performers were depicting black people but also that I had never heard of minstrel shows.I just thought that the cast were wearing some strange kind of clown costumes.I was totally aghast when,at the age of 21, I found out the truth.

There is a difference between a 10-year-old wearing black-face as a compliment to a specific sports figure, and older whites wearing black-face as an insult to an entire race.

Yes, blackface has a long history in Japan. There are recent example: Here is one from the BBC. The title: "Japanese TV show featuring blackface actor sparks anger." Note that one manga publisher bleached Naomi Osaka. Moral: Black is funny and stupid White is beautiful and talented. But then one LDP genius wrote a piece entitled, "How Japanese is Naomi Osaka."

Fredrick Douglas was right about blackface. This goes for the serious melodrama and first talkie "The Jazz Singer." It is shows the shallowness and racism of Broadway and Hollywood. In the movie a Jewish boy estranges himself from his father by becoming a jazz singer, which required blackface. His character is not comic but points to an ugly face. Jazz was very popular in the 1920s. It was Black music. Broadway wanted to capitalize on Jazz but they did want Black people on stage. So you got a fake Blackman on stage to sing fake jazz.

When the Gershwin brothers want to produce "Porgy and Bess" if real Black people Broadway resisted but the Gershwins told Broadway either they use Black singers or no show. The got their way and history was made.

I find it ironic that whenever examples of Japanese entertainers in blackface were made public in other countries like the United States, the condemnation was quick and swift about how 'racist' and 'xenophobic' and 'ignorant' Japanese people were. Yet, here we have had multiple incidents of people in America engaging in blackface, both prominent figures as well as ordinary citizens like school teachers. Look who the ignorant ones are now.

You don't need to, but if you do, as per the kid I mentioned, it ain't necessarily a sign of disrespect.

Not knowing doesn't mean it won't have that effect. People can't see the intention in a person's head, they can only see their actions.

There was an adults who also didn't see it as a problem somewhere in that kids life. What's their excuse?

Ignorance isn't an excuse!

I'm denying that anyone here today has posted anything that justifies accusing them of having an attitude that "African culture is fair game" which was what you actually accused them (us?) of. I certainly don't have that attitude.

I never said "you" (BigYen). I was speaking to someone else in particular. When I referred to you, I wrote your name! Are you both the same person? It wouldn't surprise me! :)

It seems you like so many others think that African culture is fair game, but the other cultures and people around the world should be respected.

"Others" can refer to anyone. It does mean simple on this website, but even the people in those pictures. You seem to be taking it personal. If it doesn't apply to you then don't worry about it because it shouldn't.

Nothing anyone has posted here even remotely justifies that assertion.

Fact: It has already been established that regardless of reason, people of African descent find it offensive.

What bothers me is when Americans expect their racially charged background to be a basis upon which other countries should not do blackface - even when it has nothing to do with being black.

> I remember a few years back reading of a controversy of a group of minstrels or something, doing blackface for some reason that wasn't racial at all, and getting criticized for using blackface - outside America. That's just ridiculous.

It ain't just Americans. African diaspora all over the planet find it a problem. That is the reason that you see a picture of the Dutch as an example.

TENSION IN OTHER COUNTRIES

Similar controversies have arisen in other countries.

In 2017, confrontations broke out in the Netherlands over the helper of the Dutch version of Santa Claus. Known as Black Pete, the character is played by whites in blackface at children's events.

A leading television station in Peru was fined $26,000 for airing the popular comedy character Negro Mama on an entertainment show in 2013. The character is played by Jorge Benavides, who dons blackface, exaggerated lips and a flaring nose.

In 2010, Mexican media conglomerate Televisa drew criticism for hiring actors in blackface for a popular morning program during the World Cup.

I rest my case!

@BigYen

How justified is it to be "offended" as in the case I quoted above about an Australian kid who was only trying to express his hero-worship of a Fijian-born sports star, a kid who had probably never heard of blackface and would have been probably completely unaware of its (American) history, a kid who then had to cope with all the vitriol and abuse he and his parents promptly had thrown at him from all quarters of society, virtually none of which would have been African-American?

Simple, you don't need to wear dark skin to dress up as your idol. I seen a white kid dress up as Malcolm X. He wore a suit, bowtie, and part in his hair. His was praised by people of color. If this kid was "woke" to respect another culture and his idol then everyone else can too.

Would it be OK for that same to change his eyelids for costume because idolize an Asian or Is it ok for him to wear a nose prosthetic to look Caucasian? I remember the same people on this thread in an uproar when a Japanese commercial did that exact thing!

Ignorance is not an excuse!

Interesting that the author neglected to mention the LONG history of blackface in Japan. which began almost around the same time. Oversight?

The history of blackface minstrelsy in Japan is almost as long as that in the U.S. Blackface was introduced to Japan in 1854 by Commodore Matthew Perry, who treated Japanese delegates to an “Ethiopian entertainment” performed by white members of the crew of his flagship, the USS Powhatan, to celebrate the conclusion of a trade treaty with Japan that reopened the country to the outside world.

A decade later, Japanese themselves were blackening up and strutting in morning coats and top hats across Japanese stages. By the 1920s and 1930s, comedians Kenichi Enomoto, Yozo Hayashi and Teiichi Futamura were performing in blackface jazz revues in Tokyo’s Asakusa district, while actors such as Shigeru Ogura appeared in blackface on the silver screen.

When not embodied on stage and screen, minstrel and other black stereotypes were reproduced in toys, cartoons, animated shorts, adventure books and product trademarks. They also took the form of knickknacks, some of which, under the “Made in Occupied Japan” label, were produced with the approval of U.S. authorities for export to America. In the 1970s and 1980s, doo-wop groups such as the Chanels (later Rats & Star), and Gosperats (an amalgam of Rats & Star and the Gospellers) carried on the Japanese blackface tradition in their bid to channel Motown soul.

Just last year, Masatoshi Hamada was goofing around in blackface on Downtown no Gaki no Tsukai ya Arahende!! So, yes, Japan has a very long and consistent history of blackface as well, and it has not been disinfected of the viral and racist source of it, American blackface.

The problem in America is that blackface has a charged history, and therefore the subject has essentially become one that is off limits for discussion. What bothers me is when Americans expect their racially charged background to be a basis upon which other countries should not do blackface - even when it has nothing to do with being black. I remember a few years back reading of a controversy of a group of minstrels or something, doing blackface for some reason that wasn't racial at all, and getting criticized for using blackface - outside America. That's just ridiculous.

In doesn't matter what you think because you are not apart of the offended group. If it is offending to that group then it is offending to that group. Aren't you always spouting on about respecting Japanese culture. Telling people how to feel about their own history and culture is quite arrogant and disrespectful.

It seems you like so many others think that African culture is fair game, but the other cultures and people around the world should be respected.

I remember a few years back reading of a controversy of a group of minstrels or something, doing blackface for some reason that wasn't racial at all, and getting criticized for using blackface - outside America. That's just ridiculous.

Yeah, because it is insulting to people of African descent regardless of the history behind it. In the late 1800s to well into the 1900s, Europeans created “human zoos” in cities like Paris; Hamburg, Germany; Antwerp, Belgium; Barcelona, Spain; London; Milan; Warsaw, Poland; St Louis; and New York City. For example, the Parisian World Fair featured a human zoo that exhibited Black people, and 34 million people were drawn to the exhibition in just six months.

Being ignorant of history is not an excuse!

It just shows on psychological level how obsessed people are with people of African descent. They are always trying to ridicule them then turnaround and imitate them trying to steal and claim African culture as their own like cornrows, lip injections, butt injections, jazz, rock n roll, inventions, religion and tanning just to name a few.

I call them culture vultures!

Irony is wasted on the stupid!

Actor Ted Danson was accused of being racist and tasteless for performing a skit in blackface, using the N-word and joking about his sex life with then-girlfriend Whoopi Goldberg, who is black, at Goldberg's Friars Club roast in 1993.

Even though Whooopi later admitted to WRITING most of the racist material. Shouldn’t that be pointed out in this piece?? Oh wait, it’s the Associated Press and

Jesse J. Holland, a “Race & Ethnicity reporter for The Associated Press, responsible for coverage and analysis of this nation's minority and ethnic groups for the world's largest news organization.”

OOOPS Jesse, maybe back to JOUR 101.

It's not something I'm interested in either. And I think that when it's done with intent to ridicule, it's as despicably racist as anything. But what about some kid who dressed up as Mr. T for Halloween in the '80s? I didn't, but I would have - I loved Mr. T. And I would have wanted to be black, with the blackface. This isn't an intent to ridicule, for me it would have been an attempt to impersonate someone I looked up to as a role model. That's not racist, inherently or otherwise.

The problem in America is that blackface has a charged history, and therefore the subject has essentially become one that is off limits for discussion. What bothers me is when Americans expect their racially charged background to be a basis upon which other countries should not do blackface - even when it has nothing to do with being black. I remember a few years back reading of a controversy of a group of minstrels or something, doing blackface for some reason that wasn't racial at all, and getting criticized for using blackface - outside America. That's just ridiculous.

I really don't understand what is so entertaining about blackface. I remember as a kid being bored stiff watching the Black and White Minstrel Show.

“The revelations offer the latest examples of prominent white people facing harsh criticism for wearing blackface.”

Yup. Those democrats really opened up a whole can of worms there in Virginia. Not to mention a 2nd victim of sexual misconduct has came forth accusing Virginia’s LT. Governor.

Al Sharpton is really fired up about those blackface antics.. (Guy chews popcorn.....)