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Gun violence in America: A long list of forgotten victims

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By MICHAEL TARM and BRYNN ANDERSON

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How can children in schools defend themselves against mass shooters since cops won't even enter to protect them? Doesn't 2A cover children as well? What is the Trump solution to this. If it's more mental healthcare that means more socialized medicine which is Hillary policy. Schools in Japan don't have gun drills even though 250,000 people in Japan possess guns.

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Mass shootings — defined as the deaths of four or more people, not including the shooter — have killed from 85 to 175 people each year over the past decade.

So three people dead and a dozen injured by gun fire isn't a mass shooting. Okay.

Plus, while America’s gun killings spiked wildly in 2020, recent statistics indicate they are coming down this year in many cities.

Yeah. That's what a spike is.

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Amendment 2 of the constitution needs to be changed! Dismantle the NRA immediately!

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Amendment 2 of the constitution needs to be changed! Dismantle the NRA immediately!

That won't happen, it should never happen.

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That won't happen, it should never happen.

Lots of Trump supporters say the NRA is too weak and say they don't promote guns enough? The AR is a lightweight weapon and simply a child's toy compared to real stuff the government has. How come the NRA doesn't push further? Why just have an AR?

Also:

I would do anything—anything—to protect my five grandchildren. Including, as a last resort, shooting them, if I had to, to protect the lives of my grandchildren

[Rep. Debbie Lesko (R-AZ)]

Wow, this is starting to become like Jim Jones. How far will Trump people go?

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With all this mass hysteria focused on sporadic incidents of mass shootings in the US, it becomes far easier for those with agenda to push their narratives on both sides of the gun debate.

One side can push the narrative that the US is a dangerous place, whereas the fact is that it is not far more unsafe than my country which has some of the strictest gun laws in the world and yet has the second highest number of guns in the hands of civilians in absolute terms after the US. The catch is that 90 percent of the guns are illegally manufactured and procured.

The other side can push the narrative that ‘they are coming for your guns’ which leads to gun lovers stocking up on more guns.

Gun sales were far higher in the US during the Obama years than during the Trump era.

I believe that both sides can give and take and reach but this requires letting of politically driven agendas and mass hysteria generated by the media after sporadic incidents of mass shootings.

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One side can push the narrative that the US is a dangerous place, whereas the fact is that it is not far more unsafe than my country which has some of the strictest gun laws in the world and yet has the second highest number of guns in the hands of civilians in absolute terms after the US.

All else being equal?

And your country has, what, 5 times the population? So absolute terms doesn't mean much.

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@Risky

Since folks are so fond of comparing US to European countries with smaller populations, a more apt example would be a country with strict gun laws where only criminals own guns and which is as dangerous as the US in parts. And far more unsafe for women.

And yes, shootings and crimes at gunpoint happen in my country also, but it’s not covered by the world media because , you know, the victims are not white.

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 with strict gun laws where only criminals own guns

Where do they get the guns? It seems Japan doesn't have this problem with 250,000 gun owners and very strict regulation.

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@Evil

Since folks are so fond of comparing US to European countries with smaller populations, a more apt example would be a country with strict gun laws where only criminals own guns and which is as dangerous as the US in parts. And far more unsafe for women.

Thanks. It's a fair point. I just wonder if comparing the US to countries in Europe - or with Europe in general - is more apt because they have economic, demographic and social similarities (he says, fully knowing there are European countries which are dissimilar). You never mention the name of your country, so I won't (I think I know it), but is it socio-demographically similar? I'm asking out of pure ignorance. I'm not trying to insult you.

And yes, shootings and crimes at gunpoint happen in my country also, but it’s not covered by the world media because , you know, the victims are not white.

Another good point. But the victims in Buffalo weren't white, nor Charleston or El Paso, for example.

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but is it socio-demographically similar

That’s besides the point. We are discussing gun laws here. Folks give the example of European countries or Australia and NZ which have far smaller populations and where it’s easier to control access to guns than the US to say that gun control works. So it’s fair to give the example of a bigger country where it doesn’t.

Where do they get the guns?

Read my previous post. With 70 million guns in private hands in my country out of which an estimated 62 million are illegally manufactured, no one can convince me with their nonsensical arguments about ‘gun control’.

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Amid the stream of mass shootings that have become chillingly commonplace in America, the reality of the nation's staggering murder rate can often be seen more clearly in the deaths that never make national news.

My opinion contrasts with this writer's opinion. The victims are not forgotten, and other than on JT where non-US citizen's jump all over their keyboards when a mass shooting occurs in the US, but not in other countries, Americans are acutely aware of gun homicides.

And the fact is, and this is either not understood or is ignored by non-US citizens, most gun homicides take place where most Americans never venture.

That is the reality of the demographics in the US---gun crimes are more likely to take place in neighborhoods based on socio-economic factors.

I personally know zero victims of gun crimes; I know many who were killed in automobile accidents.

The reality is Americans remember victims no matter how they died.

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estimated 62 million are illegally manufactured,

I see, so all these semi auto rifles used in this recent Illinois shooting and others like at the Orlando nightclub, the Las Vegas concert mass shooting, etc etc if we locate these secret AR factories it seems we can eliminate mass shootings since these shooters get their guns from these secret and illegal gun factories. Then the majority of ARs used in mass shootings are illegally made? Where do these secret factories exist? In other countries?

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That’s besides the point. We are discussing gun laws here. Folks give the example of European countries or Australia and NZ which have far smaller populations and where it’s easier to control access to guns than the US to say that gun control works. So it’s fair to give the example of a bigger country where it doesn’t.

I think that's why they use rates instead of total numbers, which both put the United States as an outlier in the countries to which it is usually compared politically, economically and demographically. What's the rate of violent gun death per 100,000 in your country?

Incidentally, previous to 2019, NZ had relatively loose gun control (20th in the world in terms of private gun ownership) and still far less gun violence than the U.S.. Also, Japan has half the population of the U.S. and far less than half the gun violence.

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@Evil,

And I also see, from media sources, that your country has half the number of gun deaths than the United States per year in absolute terms, despite its much larger population, and about half the total homicide rate of America, according to, ahem, wikipedia.

Are these numbers under estimates?

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I know many who were killed in automobile accidents.

Sounds sad. 16-year olds are allowed to drive. Should they be allowed to carry ARs? Lots of people like to bring up guns vs. cars and say that if guns are banned then the same should be with cars. OK, I understand and if that argument is made then how about 16-year olds with ARs? Especially since (like with the recent Texas school shooting) cops are not even willing to confront mass shooters and it took them hours and hours to work up the courage to enter the school.

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The daily gun shootings take place in certain places in America, but that is not allowed into the conversation.

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DaveToday  03:41 pm JST

The daily gun shootings take place in certain places in America, but that is not allowed into the conversation.

I mentioned this briefly above, but you are right, many try and ignore this obvious effect.

nishikatToday  03:35 pm JST

Sounds sad. 16-year olds are allowed to drive. Should they be allowed to carry ARs? Lots of people like to bring up guns vs. cars and say that if guns are banned then the same should be with cars. OK, I understand and if that argument is made then how about 16-year olds with ARs? Especially since (like with the recent Texas school shooting) cops are not even willing to confront mass shooters and it took them hours and hours to work up the courage to enter the school.

I don't think 16 year old should be allowed to carry AR-15s; but I don't have a problem with them shooting those under adult supervision.

And I don't think 16 year olds should be allowed to drive unless under adult supervision.

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The daily gun shootings take place in certain places in America, but that is not allowed into the conversation.

I mentioned this briefly above, but you are right, many try and ignore this obvious effect.

I think that is also a problem that should be addressed. The last time I fell off my bike I suffered a broken wrist and a dislocated shoulder. The docs went ahead and treated them both. It's mostly, as this article does mention, gang related.

What are some solutions, do you think?

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I don't think 16 year old should be allowed to carry AR-15s

Then how can they protect themselves when school shootings happen when cops won't even run in and rescue them? Also, it says "shall not be infringed" just like freedom of the press. 16-year olds are allowed to have a blog as long as they don't threaten anyone or slander, etc. What is wrong with 16-year olds having guns if they are of sound mind and reliable (passing a background check just like adults)? How can they protect themselves if they are not around another adult carrying a gun?

And I don't think 16 year olds should be allowed to drive

But they are.....in all 50 states.

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your country has half the number of gun deaths than the United States per year in absolute terms, despite its much larger population, and about half the total homicide rate of America

The gun deaths in US include suicides which are almost two thirds. That means the reported figures of gun homicides in my country and US are almost equal.

I say reported because the corrupt cops in my country massage crime numbers to make themselves look better than they actually are.

And the blanket figures of gun deaths does not include the other crimes like rape, robbery and usurping of property. Without guns one is at the mercy of criminals but with the right to bear arms there is at least a chance that a law abiding citizen can fight back.

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nishikatToday  04:09 pm JST

Then how can they protect themselves when school shootings happen when cops won't even run in and rescue them? Also, it says "shall not be infringed" just like freedom of the press.

This issue has already been decided by the Sup. Ct., which clearly decided that the second amendment right isn’t unlimited. And many states restrict possession of guns by minors.

16-year olds are allowed to have a blog as long as they don't threaten anyone or slander, etc. What is wrong with 16-year olds having guns if they are of sound mind and reliable (passing a background check just like adults)?

What is the likelihood of someone becoming injured because of something said incorrectly in a blog, versus a firearm handled incorrectly? Again, this is not a new issue, and it is already settled.

How can they protect themselves if they are not around another adult carrying a gun?

If they are in a daily situation where they are confronting criminals with guns, then this would be an issue to re-examine.

But they are.....in all 50 states.

No--in some states 16 year olds cannot drive without adult supervision. They must turn 16 and a half.

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America has become a violent gun culture, legal and illegal weapons can easily be obtained. The G7 country with the highest numbers of mass shootings. While some seek solutions more die every single day.

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This issue has already been decided by the Sup. Ct.,

Should the M134 minigun be available just like an AR?. And why just the AR? Why stop there?

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The gun deaths in US include suicides which are almost two thirds. That means the reported figures of gun homicides in my country and US are almost equal.

I included firearm suicides (a leading cause of suicide there according to the WHO) in the figure for your country, too. Which is why I said "...in absolute terms." Even if the total number of gun homicides are almost equal, your country has a much larger population.

This source for 2017 shows the United States had more than double the amount of firearm homicides.

www.gun-control.procon.org/international-firearm-homicide-rates/

I say reported because the corrupt cops in my country massage crime numbers to make themselves look better than they actually are.

Well, you know much more about that than I do, so I won't dispute that. Appreciate your time.

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nishikatToday  04:40 pm JST

Should the M134 minigun be available just like an AR?. And why just the AR? Why stop there?

These are all decided matters. The states decide where to stop, in line with federal law.

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These are all decided matters. 

I see, but going back to teens with ARs. If, say, school shootings multiply 100x, and the supreme court allows teens to carry ARs then you would go with that. Maybe even JHS could carry if SC allows. It might happen since cops are not doing their jobs like with this latest Texas school shooting.

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The number of gun deaths in the US is comparable to the number of civilian casualties in Ukraine. That is a lot of death.

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nishikatToday  05:13 pm JST

I see, but going back to teens with ARs. If, say, school shootings multiply 100x, and the supreme court allows teens to carry ARs then you would go with that. Maybe even JHS could carry if SC allows. It might happen since cops are not doing their jobs like with this latest Texas school shooting.

Supreme Ct. wouldn't decide, it's a federal law,

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it's a federal law,

Well, the way things are going teens under 18 might have to carry ARs. Just like lots of people don't like 16-year olds to drive solo, they have to drive since they need to be independent and just like other parts of life risk is necessary to get ahead. Looks like America's future is one where adolescents will have to carry AR rifles and they have to be independent in protecting themselves. That's the conservative way of self responsibility and it starts with 2A and taking care of yourself and not relying on other people just like teens driving. Once it becomes Federal law we might start seeing armed kids in schools. How else can they protect themselves since it looks like these cases are increasing.

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nishikatToday  08:09 pm JST

That's not scientifically possible. Things are progressing with guns and gun laws. The brain of the dog will never develop to that level. But in our lifetime as guns get deadlier and more people (including kids) are targeted everyone will have to take part in their 2A responsibility and this includes teens. Lawmakers can pass laws to allow 11tth graders to carry and it could be inevitable. But the brightest Scientific team can never make dogs smarter than people.

We don't know what the scientists are capable of, especially those in the outskirts of rural cities in Germany.

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We don't know what the scientists are capable of, especially those in the outskirts of rural cities in Germany.

Exactly.

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Gun nutters are incurable.

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Gun nutters are incurable.

Well, people can call us gun owners what they will, it won't change our love for them or the 2nd amendment, it just won't and since the majority of Americans are law-abiding there is nothing to worry about or fear if gun haters or people not even living the US find it disgusting, they can have any opinion they want and that's all it will ever be a personal opinion.

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won't change our love for them or the 2nd amendment

Will the 2A ever include kids carrying guns to protect themselves? 16 year olds can drive so I'm sure NRA people would support laws that let teens carry ARs. There is always the debate of "cars kill people too" then since 16-year-olds can drive the NRA should push to change laws to let kids carry. There's the response to "cars kill people too"

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Will the 2A ever include kids carrying guns to protect themselves? 16 year olds can drive so I'm sure NRA people would support laws that let teens carry ARs. There is always the debate of "cars kill people too" then since 16-year-olds can drive the NRA should push to change laws to let kids carry. There's the response to "cars kill people too"

Don't forget Patrick Crusius.

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There are responsible gun owners who do not resist better gun laws and there are gun nutters who are opposed to any gun laws.

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Amendment 2 of the constitution needs to be changed! Dismantle the NRA immediately!

That won't happen, it should never happen.

Right? I mean who ever heard of amending an amendment. Especially after hundreds of years. That would be just ridiculous.

My family haven’t changed anything in our lives since my great great great grandpa was born. I’m worried they might find out I’m on the internet, they’ll disown me for sure. Might even get a good ole fashion tar and featherin’ too!

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Guns are accessible in the US just as knives are in Japan as rocks are used to stone people to death in Iran. The choice of weapons doesn't mean people will not kill. They kill with what is readily available.

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kaimycahlToday  11:11 pm JST

Guns are accessible in the US just as knives are in Japan as rocks are used to stone people to death in Iran. The choice of weapons doesn't mean people will not kill. They kill with what is readily available.

I have yet to read about someone sitting atop a building raining down knives and rocks on the people below during a 4th July parade.

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Harry_GattoToday  11:16 pm JST

I have yet to read about someone sitting atop a building raining down knives and rocks on the people below during a 4th July parade.

Other than the recent event, when else did that happen?

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Guns are accessible in the US just as knives are in Japan as rocks are used to stone people to death in Iran. The choice of weapons doesn't mean people will not kill. They kill with what is readily available.

But you don't see the same murder rates per capita in other countries that you see in the US.

So, based on your statement, the problem isn't guns, it is that Americans are a particularly murderous people for some reason.

Guns don't kill Americans, American kill Americans. And people think that it's a good idea to allow these people, who are particularly murderous, access to the tools of murder.

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There are 3 distinct categories for US "gun violence". Lumping them together and looking for a solution will not work. First is gun suicide, the most likely person to be killed by the gun owner is actually the gun owner or family member using a gun in the house. Second is the "mass shooting" incidents involving those with mental illness or a grudge against society and third, predominantly young black men shooting each other in gang related incidents.

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Guns are accessible in the US just as knives are in Japan as rocks are used to stone people to death in Iran. The choice of weapons doesn't mean people will not kill. They kill with what is readily available.

The old ‘knives are just as dangerous as guns’ chestnut.

Ok then. Nice argument. In that case you don’t need a rifle. Join the National Knife Association. Be the ‘good guy with a kitchen utensil’.

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Mr Kipling,

Second is the "mass shooting" incidents involving those with mental illness or a grudge against society 

Mass shootings are a small percentage of gun deaths in the US, and those done by people with mental illness is a very small percentage of that. The 'grudge' thing is the bigger factor.

First is gun suicide, the most likely person to be killed by the gun owner is actually the gun owner or family member using a gun in the house

Included in those are the accidental shootings when kids pick up unsecured, loaded weapons, or armed home owners mistaking family members for intruders and shooting them dead. Also, the domestic violence incidents which involve firearms. Fully acknowledging, of course, when guns are used in legitimate self -defense.

 predominantly young black men shooting each other in gang related incidents.

Yes. Unfortunately, those ones often result in the shooting of innocent bystanders, often kids. And I think there are other factors at play there besides the availability of guns, for example, income-inequality, lack of investment, fewer education and work opportunities, and so on.

And don't forget police involved shootings and your everyday gun violence involving fast food orders and bad driving.

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painkillerJuly 7  11:27 pm JST

Harry_GattoToday  11:16 pm JST

I have yet to read about someone sitting atop a building raining down knives and rocks on the people below during a 4th July parade.

Other than the recent event, when else did that happen?

Perhaps English isn't your first language?

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