Japan, China still at odds over 'Rape of Nanking'

what a pointless article

This is mostly an exact repeat of the previous article. So then, what's the point?

Nobody can agree on the death toll, including most historians. That's just not going to happen. Give it up already.

Bottom line... All Japan has to do is follow Germany's example. The images and insignia of the Nazis are all illegal now. The education system teaches what really happened. People who say that the war crimes did not happen are prosecuted. And the government actively acknowledges and makes efforts to assure that it comes to terms with the actions of the period.

Japan should do the same. But it is hard for people to to feel Japan is sincere when it fails to teach the truth in schools, when it constantly back steps on accountability, when it refuses the suits of people who were harmed and when it generally behaves as if Japan were the victim of that war.

If you want to know the truth Japan it is this. The leaders of your country, with great arrogance and lack of intelligent foresight to your country into a suicidal war that was lost the day it began. Japan never had the industrial or natural resources to win that war. Nor did you have the necessary technology or allies to hope to have even a balanced outcome. From the first shot fired, Japan had failed and all the people who died on both sides can blame the leadership of Japan for their deaths. And the people of Japan must take responsibility for failing to regulate the actions of their government.

As for the colonial period. Had Japan made partners and allies of Koreans and Chinese, then perhaps Japan's Asian war would have proven more successful. It is true that a savior state fighting western colonialism would have been widely welcome. But not as a brutal invader. This was the greatest opportunity missed in all of Japanese history. The brutality exacted out of a false sense of superiority was fatal to Japan's ambitions. Again all blame rests upon Japan for this outcome.

So Japan, admit it all, teach your kids not to repeat these mistakes and show acts of contrition through care for your victims. Then and only then will all of Asia find the trust necessary to better your relationships.

Look to Germany as you did during the war for an example. At least this time the example is a good one.

Ishihara won't like it, that's good enough for me

This is just another example of Jpns inability to face its past & continues to haunt these isles.......and another example of why Japans supposed "apologies" get it no where & rightfully so.

Come on Jpn stop being so stuborn, this issue is going to be pertinent to yr standing/survival in the coming years so how about it?

The report concludes a project launched in 2006 to promote mutual understanding on parts of the history that have often strained ties between the two neighbors.

Haha, thats a nice way of putting it.

Japan: So China, we raped and murdered thousands of people in your country and would rather not apologise and kind of deny it happened to the extent it did if thats ok?

China: No, we hate you. Also, the general population's hatred of you as a people helps us keep everyone in line.

Japan: So we should or shouldnt apologise?

China: Publicly we will demand an apology, but really, as long as you dont apologise and the government and people have a common hate figure, that works well for us.

Japan: Cool, we can also kind of 'save face' here too, right, by not really apologizing?

China: Yep! Works well for everyone doesnt it. If its ok with you, we will keep bringing this up every couple of years or so.

Japan: ok - should keep some journalists in a job as well, and they can pretty much just copy and paste....

As for the colonial period. Had Japan made partners and allies of >Koreans and Chinese

To be accurate, Koreans were J-nationals since 1910. Some 240,000 of them served in the Imperial Armed Forces, some rising to high rank, a few even tried at the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Pleaes don't put them together with the Chinese who fought against the Japanese invaders,which included Korean soldiers.

I know some Koreans who grew up during the war period in Korea. You would do well to check your history better. While Koreans were indeed a colony of Japan, they were also an occupied and exploited state. Much the participation in the war was done through impressing troops into service. And while Korean soliders did participate and carry out barbaric acts, the population of Korea were repressed and exploited just like the rest of Asia.

You would also do well to remember that the Manchua Chinese in Japan's colony also provided economic and production support. They too were occupied and controlled by the Japanese.

One other thought. The older Koreans I know talk about the threats and abuse by the Japanese colonial rulers. They had their culture and independence under attack as well.

Moderator: Please keep the discussion focused on Japan and China.

tkoind2 -- good posts. Anyone who thought this panel was going to reach any concensus on the most emotional issues, like Nanking, was way too optimistic. The Chinese panel members could not possibly deveate from official government policy, and the J-historians were also not going to contadict 50+ years of LDP-led propaganda. Especially since many of them had been teaching it. But I do think that even the J-sides' willingness to agree to the "aggression" wording was something positive.

The Japanese listed figures ranging from 20,000 to 200,000, citing differences on the definition of “massacre,”

Call me old-fashioned, but I'd reckon 20,000 dead counts as a pretty spectacular massacre.

I'll keep the discussion on topic, by the way..I wonder what would japanese posters in here would say about such article. japaneseno1? yuriOtani? anyone?

The Japanese listed figures ranging from 20,000 to 200,000, citing differences on the definition of “massacre,” the area and the span of the event. China, which compiled data from records of domestic and international tribunals, put the death toll at more than 300,000.

So at the high end there is a difference of 100000 people. Jpn says 200 000 China says 300 000. Are these people for real?

Japan: we admit to brutally killing 200 000 people. But don't you dare say it was 300 000. That's just irresponsible.

China: You must admit to your past activities. 300 000 died.

Japan; But we only massacred 200 000. please be reasonable,

China: well lets agree to disagree. Let's have some tea. Hey that rhymes!

Japan: well it's not quite the quality of a haiku but I guess it's ok.

@yabusama..lol..

a project launched in 2006 to promote mutual understanding

I suggest Japan do what it does best: create a cute mascot (or 2) to promote this proposed mutual understanding of the massacre. Something along the lines of 'Kiccoro' and 'Morizo', the lovable mascots used to promote appreciation of the forest during the 2005 Aichi Expo. Or maybe something like the Snowlets of the 1998 Nagano Games, Sukki, Nokki, Lekki and Tsukki. Only when the Japanese public (ultraconservatives included) can purchase cute little promotional characters do they really start to care about an event. Only when they see a little fur-ball dangling from their cell phones does the magnitude of an event really sink in. Only then will they start to acknowledge that perhaps - could it be? - the death toll was above 200,000 after all.

One of the more astonishing aspects of the massacre is that it was done mostly by hand.

Unbelievably, the Nazis were even disgusted, sickened by the utter disregard of human life.

The crazy part is that if ordinary Japanese civilians had known about the Imperial Armys atrocities, they would never have allowed it to happen. Japanese civilians were kept in the dark then and even today are being kept in the dark in regards to the Rape of Nanking.

“If two sides could gain mutual understanding just a little, we can call it a success,” Okada said.

300,000 Chinese killed, is the equivalent of 6 Atomic bombs. The Japanese have the nerve to take this laze-fare attitude of understanding "just a little". Unfortunately for Japan, the Chinese understand, a lot more then a little. Japan should hold a national day of remembrance, to reflect on the meaning of the word massacre.

Is the way the gov't works today different from the past? Japanese history doesnt acknowledge those facts because they are told by the US how they are to be written, hence why no nationalism in textbooks. Japan was forced to go to war, it was eventually going to happen. Westerners moving in on Asia, they were eventually going to try to take Japan, Japan tried diplomatically with US, but the US shut them down everytime, which led to Pearl Harbor, Japan even offered to pull out of China if the US would come to an agreement with them. But as you see, that never happened, and the acknowledgment of numbers on deaths during those years arent going to prevent these two countries from establishing prosperous ties. Oh and by the way, everything the Korean infrastructure is, is due to the Japanese, and not just in Korea

There's no surprise that they were unable to agree on the number of deaths. Given the mass confusion at the time, there's no way anyone can say for sure how many died, or how. It's completely different from the planned, organized extermination of European Jews, Gypsies, and others by the Nazis.

However, even if you take the lowest figure of 20,000, that's still enough to qualify as a massacre in my book.

It would be best if the two governments would agree to disagree and quit using the emotions surrounding the massacre to stir up hatred against the other country for political purposes. In this case, the Chinese government seems particularly culpable, but Ishihara and his ilk are not above it in Japan.

Hitokiri. "Japan was forced to go to war," Absurd! Right out of the right wing Japanese propaganda book.

Japan clearly had expansionistic objectives in Asia that would have supplanted western colonial rule with Japanese colonial rule. Their access to the natural resources they demanded would have resulted in empowering the Japanese to do exactly what they did anyway, expand into the rest of Asia and forcefully take control of the region.

Had Japan been acting on a role of liberation they would have rescued the countries they invaded and handed them back to the locals to rule. But that is not what Japan did. What they did do is kill people, supplant existing governments with Japanese puppet states and ravage the resources of these nations. Often killing many innocent people along the way.

Hardly the act of a benevolent liberator.

Japan's war was caused by the same nationalistic hysteria that took Germany and Italy to war. Selfagrandizing imaginings of invincability and just cause thinking led Japan to ignore obvious indicators by the facts and by some Japanese leaders that the war should not be fought because it could not be won. It was lost from day one. DAY ONE. And all those who died left their blood on the hands of the Japanese leadership and their suicidal policies.

As for Korea. But at what cost did Japan raise Korea's infrastructure? And for what purpose? Japan improved only what they required for their own objectives. Nothing was for Korea. And your argument ignores the fact that much of this infrastructure was gone by the end of the Korean war. The Koreans and their allies rebuilt the country to become what it is today. Not Japan! Again this thinking is just right wing propaganda with no grounding in fact.

Bottom line. Japan likes to play victim in WWII, but the fact is it was the agressor, and responsible for all the associated deaths. Germany has come clean on this point for Europe and has made a committment to teach her future generations the truth. Japan has utterly failed on this point and that is why Asia is worried.

The presense of so many right wing losers in this country who believe in the resurgence of Japanese nationalism is a sad sign of just how few people really truly know the history of the colonial and war periods. If you study a bit more, you may realize the truth. You don't need American text books to get it. Plenty of other writers and scholars have written about the real truth of Japan's empty emperial era. Try reading some!

Call me old-fashioned, but I'd reckon 20,000 dead counts as a pretty spectacular massacre

Totally agree, but by Jpn standards of the 1930-40s 20,000 isnt that large when you figure the number killed is between 20-30million, sad but looks like Jpn will never likely GET IT & the govt etc keeps most of the J-pop in the dark even after 60+ years, sad all round

We should learn from history but we should also quit living in the past.

Is the way the gov't works today different from the past? Japanese history doesnt acknowledge those facts because they are told by the US how they are to be written, hence why no nationalism in textbooks. Japan was forced to go to war, it was eventually going to happen. Westerners moving in on Asia, they were eventually going to try to take Japan, Japan tried diplomatically with US, but the US shut them down everytime, which led to Pearl Harbor, Japan even offered to pull out of China if the US would come to an agreement with them. But as you see, that never happened, and the acknowledgment of numbers on deaths during those years arent going to prevent these two countries from establishing prosperous ties. Oh and by the way, everything the Korean infrastructure is, is due to the Japanese, and not just in Korea

Yawn, its common knowledge many countries had colonies in Asia, never heard that being denied anywhere. But nice try about building all those lovely roads etc in Korea, but pls dont expect a thank you it isnt deserved.

Wudnt it be nice if Japan learned a little about the many millions they killed instead of being in the dark for the most part all these years

@hitokiri do you know what "大東亜共栄圏" is? read up on it, it explains everything.

The "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" is the reason for Japan's involvement in the war, that simple. They wanted to be the keepers of Asia and do away with "whites".

dbung10:

Japan: So China, we raped and murdered thousands of people in your country and would rather not apologise and kind of deny it happened to the extent it did if thats ok?

China: No, we hate you. Also, the general population's hatred of you as a people helps us keep everyone in line.

Japan: So we should or shouldnt apologise?

China: Publicly we will demand an apology, but really, as long as you dont apologise and the government and people have a common hate figure, that works well for us.

Japan: Cool, we can also kind of 'save face' here too, right, by not really apologizing?

China: Yep! Works well for everyone doesnt it. If its ok with you, we will keep bringing this up every couple of years or so.

Japan: ok - should keep some journalists in a job as well, and they can pretty much just copy and paste....

HAHAHAHAHHA!

Made my day! Thanks.

So why doesn't China just publish their version instead of quibbling...Any reader worth his salt is going to want to read both versions...

You guys who accept the Chinese Communists' version of Nanking .. do you also accept their version of how the Japanese were defeated? It was basically as a result of the Chinese and the entry of the Soviets into the conflict. Little mention of atomic bombs or America.

"We should learn from history but we should also quit living in the past."

There is the problem. How can you learn from history when you don't acknowledge the truth? How can children learn when the text books don't include the truth? How can adults learn while in denial?

See the issue of why the past keeps haunting Japan is their failure to address it properly in the present. Solve this problem and people can move on. Germany did it. Why not Japan?

My guess is, when you leave many of the warring leadership in power and in positions of influence, you cannot help but have a post war world that is still biased towards the nationalist thinking. It is far too convenient for them to hide the truth and imagine it didn't happen. And that is exactly what happened.

tkoind2: thanks for posting and putting history in perspective.

Hitokiri: Pls google and get your history straight... com'on man this is the Information age. Japan wanted a East Asian Empire, and USA was in the way, that's why Japan was "forced" to attack Pearl Harbour. And also Japan was forced to "liberate" the Asian countries from the colonial masters. Japanese soilders were "forced" to kill, rape and loot the civilian population because Japan wants peace and prosperity for herself. My colleague's grandfather was shot in the head by a Japanese soldier right infront of her pregnant grandmother. That was how the Japanese "liberated" the people. The rest of the world would want to let this painful memory fade. And instead of helping to heal the wound, Japan continues to rub salt to it. You have managed to perpetuate and built up the animosity towards Japan. Seriously, this is not a wise move in the long term....

As most Japanese will answer, "What war?" "rape?" Not Japan !Japan safety country.

Freedom of expression and academism (verification of facts) are not established yet in China. You can find any kind of history books on the war between Japan and China here in Japan. Some of them are written by Chinese themselves which are not necessarily the same as the official views of the Chinese government. Scholars write what they think is true by providing evidence/data and reasoning to be put to the test of the world and time. Nanking should be dealt with by such a social-sientific approach without being swayed by emotionalism or distorted by Chinese cultural habit of mendacity "bihui" (避諱), while recognizing humbly the fact that the Japanese side caused a great damage to the people of China. In this sense it's an advancement that China agreed to state Japan's views side by side in the report that differ from theirs, though it seems that the Chinese government does not want their people to know about it.

Totally agree, but by Jpn standards of the 1930-40s 20,000 isnt that large when you figure the number killed is between 20-30million,

Japan was responsible for 30 million civilian deaths alone. They have the nerve to argue about if 200,000 or 300,000 were killed in only one city. They spend years thinking up ways to lie and denigrate this truth. Insane.

tkoind2 - good posts

Japanese history doesnt acknowledge those facts because they are told by the US how they are to be written

The U.S. Never told Japan anything like that... This is the Japan Ultra-Nationalist at work...

It's because there is no such thing as saying you're sorry in Japan, because sorry acknowledges that you have committed such acts, and in the Japanese spirit of Bushido, sorry only brings shame, unlike in western cultures, saying your sorry leads to forgiveness, which there exists none in Japan.

Japan wants to be seen as the victim of WW2, that's why they have no memorials to any of their hundreds of thousands of victims, like Germany has for it's victims, NOT itself, but the victims of their actions.

Japan needs to start building memorials to it's hundreds of thousands of victims, and stop acting like a victim...

Japan YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM OF WW2, YOU ARE THE CAUSE OF ENORMOUS DESTRUCTION AND SUFFERING... WHY NOT COME-CLEAN, and start telling your own people what really happened, then you can finally put it behind you... NO MORE VICTIM-HOOD, YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM!

So what. Yawn

ummm.... please keep in mind that japanese people have always peace loving people...it just donesnt make any sense that such peace loving people would carry out such atrocities..in fact, if you really think about it, japan was actually a victim of the war - not any sort of aggressor as is frequently portrayed... this is just another case of japan being misunderstood...(ironic howls of laughter in background)

Let's get one thing straight, 65 whole years after the end of World War II. One country (Japan) has learnt to toe the line, learnt it's bitter lesson (there was nothing left in 1945), been run by the Americans for many years and kept it's promise of no military and no more war. The Japanese don't cry victim about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They merely petition for no more atomic bombs.

However, since 1945 the other country (China) murders it's own civilians when they protest for democracy, has invaded and occupied neighbouring nations (Tibet anyone ?), constantly threatens Taiwan with war and has assisted our current favourite madman up in North Korea.

So carry on reading the crazed lectures from the anti-Japanese activists on this site, but Japan, which was left with bombed destruction and an American administration in 1945, really doesn't need to explain itself to the likes of China. The only ones playing the victim card here are the Chinese, which is a bit rich considering their recent history.

@northlondon

Yeah, sure, it was a long time ago, but to suggest (as you seem to be) that it is all best left alone is childish and ridiculous. For a start, it's bloody interesting to discuss and debate history.

I think every country has a duty to take a long hard look at what one's fellow countrymen have done in the past. For many it's a very difficult thing to do without trying to put on the rose-tinted spectacles or get out the tin of whitewash.

I think for most people, if they do look back at their country's past in an unbiased and unblinkered way, will find some very unpalatable facts and events. Shameful events. As a Brit I think I could list several episodes in history where I think we have behaved appallingly just off the top of my head. As I am interested in history I have been to some of the places where such events took place... Jallianwala Bagh at Amritsar, for example.

I am happy to speak to anyone about these events, openly and (for example if it were with a person from Amritsar) in a spirit of conciliation, if that were necessary or meant anything coming from me.

Now on the other hand, here we have in Japan a shrine to the war dead (I have no problem with that) but with an official museum next to it peddling a version of history that is pure propaganda. The Yushukan Museum is a disgrace... a ridiculous place. Even the Japanese themselves had to reign it in 3 or 4 years ago and have some of the most extreme and nationalist explanations replaced. It's astounding that such a ludicrous place could be allowed to be open to the public in Japan, with no other similar museum offering an alternative analysis of history.

In the UK we have a director who makes an Oscar-winning movie about Ghandi, the man who did most to topple the British empire. On the other hand in Japan we have a movie about Hideki Tojo, presenting him as not such a bad guy after all!

I think many Japanese have little or no idea of what atrocities Japan committed during the war and basically they are not interested.

Try it. Ask the Japanese people around you.

Perhaps many Japanese people will vaguely say, oh, Japan did bad things in the war, but when you ask "what exactly?" they find it difficult to pinpoint anything. So you might try to mention a few things but then they start saying that, no, that's Chinese propaganda or else something like, well, maybe we did do that but there was XYZ reason, etc.

There seems to be nothing definite for the Japanese to accept as an atrocity. Vociferous right-wing patriotic groups openly question everything... there is no officially accepted truth. Perhaps part of the matter is that a lot of government held war-records have been destroyed or else what remains are not open to the public or researchers.

So for most Japanese there is a cloud of vagueness over any war atrocities that might have been committed by Japan and this allows right-wing groups to easily sow the seeds of doubt.

It seems somewhat unfair. For example, Americans don't deny the atomic bombings or quibble over the numbers killed. They accept the figures and take that as a starting point to debate the rights and wrongs of it.

I think this lack of clarity from Japan about the whole war record is what causes the problems.

As for all this idiocy that says Japan needs to come to terns with its past so that it can move on. What a stupid this to say, they are not some sick person being treated by a psychologist. It is a country that has moved into the 21st. century very well thank you. It is China that has not “moved on”, they still live in the past or to be more exact use the past to manipulate the gullible. This holier than thou attitude of the Japan bashers here who make believe that they only are only critical of Japan for Japans own good disgusts me. Try sitting in your apartment in China writing about China and it’s government and people the way you do here about Japan, what do you imagine would happen? Grow up and see China for what it is, what it still is.

imacat;

I think every country has a duty to take a long hard look at what one's >fellow countrymen have done in the past.

What matters is recognizing what was done in the past and ensuring that it isn't happening now. The injustice my country has done to the native americans, african americans, etc are all history are aren't about to happen now. All the "aggressor" nations during WWII are now peaceful democracies.

As a Brit I think I could list several episodes in history where I think >we have behaved appallingly just off the top of my head.

Execution Rocks, Long Island Sound, New York. The British chained Americans to rocks that would become submerged at high tide. Revolutionary War. Add that to your list.

Now on the other hand, here we have in Japan a shrine to the war dead (I >have no problem with that) but with an official museum next to it ?>peddling a version of history that is pure propaganda. The Yushukan >Museum is a disgrace... a ridiculous place.

I disagree. I've been to the Yushukan, spent hours looking at the exhibits and explanations. If there was any propaganda , it was the repeated mention of the extent to which European powers had colonized and raped Asian natons of their resources. England in particular appeared highlighted. To my surprise I found little as pertaining to the United States.But of course, is claiming that England had colonized parts of Asia a fact or propaganda?

I think many Japanese have little or no idea of what atrocities Japan >committed during the war and basically they are not interested.

I agree. But then most people in most countries, especially the young, care little about what seems to them to be "ancient history".

There seems to be nothing definite for the Japanese to accept as an >atrocity. Vociferous right-wing patriotic groups openly question >everything... there is no officially accepted truth.

And that's exactly why the joint Sino-Japanese study in the article is of value and a step forward.

Perhaps part of the matter is that a lot of government held war-records >have been destroyed or else what remains are not open to the public or >researchers.

That's the risk you take when you literally burn a country down to the ground.

So for most Japanese there is a cloud of vagueness over any war >atrocities that might have been committed by Japan and this allows right->wing groups to easily sow the seeds of doubt.

What allows the J-right wing to sow seeds of doubt is the Chinese side with growing numbers and expanding atrocities. And again, this is why the joint study is so valuable.

It seems somewhat unfair. For example, Americans don't deny the atomic >bombings or quibble over the numbers killed. They accept the figures and >take that as a starting point to debate the rights and wrongs of it.

That's a silly comparison. We had troops on site in a matters of days, the records of those cities and their populations were current and intact. Nanking in 1937 was a mess as were many cities in China during that period such that even casualty figures are "guessed" by everyone. At the Tokyo WAr Crimes Trials, China, represented by the KMT tried to prosecute the Nanking Massacre but was dismissed by the Allied Judges for lack of evidence. That is how "undocumented" Nanking really is.

I think this lack of clarity from Japan about the whole war record is >what causes the problems.

Japan isn't going to have any better record of 1937 Nanking than anyone else.

What allows the J-right wing to sow seeds of doubt is the Chinese side with growing numbers and expanding atrocities. And again, this is why the joint study is so valuable.

Actually, it was the JP government and JP media who instigated both J-right wingers and the Chinese government over the issue. The Chinese government was NOT aware that JP government was planning to tone down the expression of 'war aggression' through textbook screening until the JP media blew it off in the early 1980s. The media made an inaccurate report through exaggeration and it eventually upset other Asian countries in spring 1982.

Japan has stuck to the conditions of the treaty. If there were more Japan should have done I believe they should have wrote it on the treaty. Besides who decides how one country should apologize or show shame for what they have done in the past? Elected officials are all elites who are rich, they didnt come out of the struggle, or can begin to understand what happened back then. I also think if Japan is trying to apologize, doesnt that acknowledge their wrong doings in the past?

JHansen, I apologize for the term whites, I was just going off of what i read about the GEACP, as it claimed to rid the "white man". I love all races, it is just hard to not use racism in a world where i hear, haha thats why we a bombed you. Trust me, I know not all whites are the same. If you think about it, expansion, colonization, imperialism, war on terror, is all just a move for the elites to make more money and create a bigger rift between rich and poor and is not really a necessary move for the prosperity of a nation. But for the most part I agree with you. I appreciate having this discussion with you

it's not only what happened 60 years ago. it's not only the denial of what happened. Mostly, it's the poor attitude of Japanese towards Chinese that prevents relationship from really improving. There is a sense of superiority in Japan, and it is stronger against China and other asian cultures.

Yes, more than 30 million Chinese died during the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward, but the overall quality of life in China has improved 1,000 fold in the last 25 years, whereas in Japan everything is stagnated or collapsed.

@ossan

The injustice my country has done to the native americans, african americans, etc are all history are aren't about to happen now. All the "aggressor" nations during WWII are now peaceful democracies

Haha this made me laugh out loud. You know I think some Iraqi and Afghanistan families who have seen loved ones killed are going to disagree with you.

Execution Rocks, Long Island Sound, New York. The British chained Americans to rocks that would become submerged at high tide. Revolutionary War. Add that to your list

It's already on the list. That's my point. I take it carpet bombing, agent orange, etc are on your list. ..

If there was any propaganda , it was the repeated mention of the extent to which European powers had colonized and raped Asian natons of their resources.

I completely accept that European powers greedily exploited Asia. Who wouldn't? But to give that information as the Yushukan does and then to present Japan as a savior of Asia is just pure propaganda and ludicrous. But you go ahead and lap it up if you want to.

That is how"undocumented" Nanking really is

It's convenient for the Japanese. Instead of looking long and hard at the behavior of Japan's armed forces in Asia, they can endlessly debate and deny numbers and statistics.

Hey, I wonder if the Japanese are planning a war memorial for the American POWs who met an appalling fate on Chichi-jima, similar to the memorial garden the Aussies built for the Japanese POWs at killed at Cowra...

Haha this made me laugh out loud. You know I think some Iraqi and >Afghanistan families who have seen loved ones killed are going to >disagree with you

By "Aggressor countries" I was refering to the Axis powers. Which obviously excludes the United States.And just for the record, we never deliberately targeted civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. This is in contrast to our policy during WWII. Speaking of which doesn't England have blood stained hands from Dresden?

I completely accept that European powers greedily exploited Asia. Who >wouldn't? But to give that information as the Yushukan does and then to >present Japan as a savior of Asia is just pure propaganda and ludicrous. >But you go ahead and lap it up if you want to.

I'm not lapoping up anything.I didn't see this "propaganda" that you talk about. And I looked at every exhibit and explanation LOOKING for such. Since you seem convinced that it exists maybe you can tell me which exhibit? Academically, if you accept that European Powers exploited Asia, and accept the historical fact that Imperial Japan's expansion over Asia directly and indirectly resulted in the liberation and independence of several Asian nations, then just how is that Propaganda? Perhaps what you really mean to say is that the Museum doesn't show the horrors wrought upon the civilians and pows by the Imperial Japanese Army?

It's convenient for the Japanese. Instead of looking long and hard at >the behavior of Japan's armed forces in Asia, they can endlessly debate >and deny numbers and statistics.

It's also convenient for the Chinese who have managed to grow the numbers from tens of thousands to 100,000 to 300,000 all without remains or documentation to support it. Admit it, Nanking was undocumented, and that is the start of the difficulty in trying to understand and resolve this issue.

Hey, I wonder if the Japanese are planning a war memorial for the >American POWs who met an appalling fate on Chichi-jima,

Hey, why don't you ask them. I have heard that there is a war memorial for a US bomber crew somewhere in the Japanese boondocks but I've never looked deeply into it.

"we never deliberately targeted civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan"

That shall explain why only 700,000 civilians died there...

@Ossan

By "Aggressor countries" I was refering to the Axis powers. Which obviously excludes the United States.

I was referring to your word "injustice"...

And just for the record, we never deliberately targeted civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.

This must make the relatives of the families of the tens of thousands of civilians killed by US and British forces in these countries feel so much better...

the historical fact that Imperial Japan's expansion over Asia directly and indirectly resulted in the iberation and independence of several Asian nations

Do you understand the meaning of the word liberation? I know American's are losing their concepts of freedom and democracy as they allow the "war on terror" to turn their country into a police state, but this assertion is just plain ridiculous.

How about Japan's "liberation" of your country's colony the Philippines? What a wonderful "liberation" that was.

Or how about the Indonesian romusha... how they could enjoy their marvelous liberation...

Admit it, Nanking was undocumented

I'm sorry, you're just plain wrong on this point. Historians have been using both primary and secondary sources to analyze the atrocity.

>Two Japanese officers, Toshiaki Mukai and Tsuyoshi Noda competing to see who could kill (with a sword) one hundred people first. The bold headline reads, "'Incredible Record' (in the Contest To Cut Down 100 People—Mukai 106 – 105 Noda—Both 2nd Lieutenants Go Into Extra Innings".

Werner Gruhl estimates the civilian victims of Japanese war crimes at 20,365,000. Detailed by country: China 12,392,000; Indochina 1,500,000; Korea 500,000; Dutch East Indies 3,000,000; Malaya and Singnapore 100,000 ; Philippines 500,000; Burma 170,000; Forced laborers in Southeast Asia 70,000, 30,000 interned non-Asian civilians; Timor 60,000; Thailand and Pacific Islands 60,000.[111] Werner Gruhl estimates POW deaths in Japanese captivity at 331,584. Detailed by country: China 270,000; Netherlands 8,500; U.K. 12,433; Canada 273; Philippines 20,000; Australia 7,412; New Zealand 31; and the United States 12,935

imacat

By "Aggressor countries" I was refering to the Axis powers. Which >obviously excludes the United States. I was referring to your word "injustice"...

I see. Well please look at the title of this article it's about

It would be helpful if you didn't decide to jump 66 years in timeframe in the middle of an exchange.

And just for the record, we never deliberately targeted civilians in >Iraq and Afghanistan. This must make the relatives of the families of the tens of thousands of >civilians killed by US and British forces in these countries feel so >much better...

Don't see how the victims' survivors feel have anything to do with it "deliberate" or "non-fdeliberate" targeting of civilians. But as I said, please go back to Nanking 1937.

the historical fact that Imperial Japan's expansion over Asia directly >and indirectly resulted in the iberation and independence of several >Asian nations

Do you understand the meaning of the word liberation? I know American's >are losing their concepts of freedom and democracy as they allow >the "war on terror" to turn their country into a police state, but this >assertion is just plain ridiculous.

Yes I do do YOU? When a country that has been a colony of another for hundreds of years declares independence and is recognized and accepted by all other nations, that's liberated. Again, WWII is not about a "War on Terror".

How about Japan's "liberation" of your country's colony the Philippines? >What a wonderful "liberation" that was.

Howe about it? That's a poor example because there was a movement towards independence in the future and an acceptance of it already going on in the US prior to WWII. If anything all the war did ewas move it in schedule.

Or how about the Indonesian romusha... how they could enjoy their >marvelous liberation...

The Indonesians declared independence at the end of WWII and the Dutch in their great generosity RE-INVADED Indonesia to take it back. The Indonesians fought for their independence and that is one country that openly declares that the Japanese invaders kicked out their colonial masters. Was it "marvellous"? Beats me. But Indonesia did become independent of Dutch rule. That's a fact.

Admit it, Nanking was undocumented

I'm sorry, you're just plain wrong on this point.

The very text of this article Proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Nanking was UNDOCUMENTED. That's exactly why these scholars from China and Japan are attempting to resolve it. If Nanking were documented as you claim, there would be no debates and no need to resolve anything because all the facts would be at hand.

guest at 01:33 PM JST - 4th February Two Japanese officers, Toshiaki Mukai and Tsuyoshi Noda competing to see >who could kill (with a sword) one hundred people first. The bold >headline reads, "'Incredible Record' (in the Contest To Cut Down 100 >People—Mukai 106 – 105 Noda—Both 2nd Lieutenants Go Into Extra Innings". Werner Gruhl estimates the civilian victims of Japanese war crimes at >20,365,000. Detailed by country: China 12,392,000; Indochina 1,500,000; >Korea 500,000; Dutch East Indies 3,000,000; Malaya and Singnapore >100,000 ; Philippines 500,000; Burma 170,000; Forced laborers in >Southeast Asia 70,000, 30,000 interned non-Asian civilians; Timor >60,000; Thailand and Pacific Islands 60,000.[111] Werner Gruhl estimates >POW deaths in Japanese captivity at 331,584. Detailed by country: China >270,000; Netherlands 8,500; U.K. 12,433; Canada 273; Philippines 20,000; >Australia 7,412; New Zealand 31; and the United States 12,935

This is OT.

It would be helpful if you didn't decide to jump 66 years in timeframe in the middle of an exchange.

You're talking about learning from the past!! Here in the 21st Century we still have America swaggering around like a cowboy on the world stage, wading into Iraq on the basis of a lie, killing 1000s of civilians, creating massive new numbers of terrorists who want to attack the west... what has America learned?

But Indonesia did become independent of Dutch rule. That's a fact.

Unfortunately most of the romusha didn't become independent... they were dead. I suppose that is in a way a kind of "liberation"...

Proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Nanking was UNDOCUMENTED.

Google Askew and Nanjing to find a very interesting article that shows what primary and secondary documentation is available.

imacat;

Proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Nanking was UNDOCUMENTED. Google Askew and Nanjing to find a very interesting article that shows >what primary and secondary documentation is available.

FACT: Chinese and Japanese scholars are working on piecing together the events and figures pertaining to Nanking. Why? Because there is no documentation of any reliable nature.

FACT; China tried to prosecute the Nanking Massacre at the Tokyo War Crimes Trials on the basis of 100,000 deaths. The Allied Judges dismissed the claim for LACK OF EVIDENCE.

Surely your primary evidence was available at that time and much fresher too. And I don't consider secondary evidence of any value.

forgetting, everybody will have their own versions of what happened. What really happened we really don't know. But the facts are millions of asians died by the imperial army

The fact that Japanese historians and professors are still arguing that 'only' up to 200,000 were killed in Nanking whereas the Chinese state it was nearer 300,000 speaks volumes. I mean, the horrendous violence was still there; civilians slaughtered en masse for sport as the Japanese went on a demented rampage. Imagine if the Germans were still arguing over figures of how many the Nazis killed? In fact, some old Nazi sympathisers do still argue over holocaust figures but these people are nutjobs who do not represent what every German school child is taught, openly. Nanking was an utter disgrace to Japan, as was much of what they did in Asia from 1930s-45 and the fact that historians still feel they need to argue over the exact figures makes me seriously uncomfortable. Japan needs to come clean about what it did, teach it openly, make sure it isn't twisted for nationalistic ends, then move on. Growing up hurts, I know, but there is no alternative.

It would be really nice if only people would stop saying that the rape of Nanking didn't happened. It would be really nice too if only some extremists would stop seeing their country as a hero, the righteous side, and all those bullshits. No one's righteous in wars. All of us kills, though it is true that some country are far more brutal than the others in terms of fighting their enemies. Japan is one of them, and I have to tell you that I have no sentiment toward this country. It's just the way some people keeps on resisting this fact, and how the government keeps on hiding this fact from their citizens. How can they say such a thing? Does anyone ever think about how we might feel? How painful it is, to see your beloved being killed in front of your very eyes with you not being able to do anything to safe them? How painful it is to have your siblings, parents, lover and friends being killed and having the murderer simply denies their very existence? Does this means that the Japanese army didn't killed my grandpa, a mere civilian? Do they know how my family felt when some Japanese people with army uniforms and were carrying guns come to his house, taking my grandpa with them only to have my grandpa never coming back ever again? Not even his corpse came back for us to mourn over and bury. Years latter when the war ended did we know how the Japanese built a shrine for their so-called 'heroes'. They say such things, but how will they feel when it happens to their beloved?

The Rape of Nanking really did happen, and no matter how much were killed, they're all humans. It's really pointless to argue over the numbers of humans who were killed, nor offering financial help for those who were left. They won't come back. The Japanese army has KILLED them, those mere civilians who can't fight at all for dear live. Our scars won't heal, but please don't just throw all of us into a dark corner and simply forget our existence. Keep on remembering us, make the thought of what happened to us haunt you, and perhaps this won't repeat for the second time.

I think there is no necessities to use wrong number to talk Japanese army brutalities. If we can believe reports of ICNSZ*2, Maybe (200,000-200,000=less than 1,000) civils by Japanese Army. Japanese army killed 20,000 up to 35,000 Chinese Army by brutalities.

Population of Nanking Civils

Dec.7 (Chinese Army 'Scorched-earth policy' *1)

Dec.10 200,000 by ICNSZ(JohnLabe)*2

Dec.13 (Japanese Army breached the gates of Nanking)

Dec.17,18,21,27 200,000 by ICNSZ

Jan.14 250,000 by ICNSZ

*1 Chinese Army 'Scorched-earth policy' burned down hundreds of villages and buildings in a 16 kilometer radius outside the city of Nanking, There was No civils outside of SafetyZone. It was in winter, it was too cold to live outside of house.

*2 ICNSZ International Committee for Nanking Safety Zone

Even Naz1s were horrified by the massacre.

Look up Unit 731:

Thousands of Chinese civilians were buried or burned alive, beheaded, used as targets for bayonet practice, or shot during mass executions, while the coutnryside was raped and pillated. A Tokyo Times reporter visint the area commented that he had never been to he11, but if there was a he11, it was in that city.

It was common knowledge that Japanese soldiers were killing Chinese for sport and pleasure, burying them alive, pushing them into fires, or beating them to death with clubs. Many of the atrocities were witnessed by Reverend John Magee, one o the Westerners in charge of an ineffective refugee area called the "Nanjing International Safety Zone." He recorded the only known documentary of this holocaust on 16 mm film (available today on video). At the time, the film was sent by an outraged German diplomat in Nanjing, George Rosen, to the attention of the Naz1 government, and the unlikeliest of saviors, Adolph Hitler. He requested German intercedence because the Japanese Army had turned into a violent killing machine. It has been estimated that 300,000 Chinese were killed and 20,000 women were raped over the six-week period.

From Rape of Nanking (wiki page>Atrocities):

On the rape that occurred during the massacre, Chang wrote that "certainly it was one of the greatest mass rapes in world history." She estimated that the number of women raped ranged from twenty thousand to as many as eighty thousand,[21] and stated that women from all classes were raped, including Buddhist nuns.[22] Furthermore, rape occurred in all locations and at all hours,[23] and women both very young and very old were raped.[24] Not even pregnant women were spared, Chang wrote, and that after gang rape, Japanese soldiers "sometimes slashed open the bellies of pregnant women and ripped out the fetuses for amusement".[25] Not all rape victims were women, according to the book, Chinese men were sodomized and forced to perform repulsive sexual acts.[26] Some were forced to commit incest—fathers to rape their own daughters, brothers their sisters, sons their mothers.

There are records of western missionaries/diplomats. Many bodies were burned and dumped in the river. I don't know what evidence these right-wing Japanese nationalists are looking for. Sperm? DNA?

What the Chinese want first is an end to the annual glorification of the Yasakuni shrine. We should at least start by giving them that