Scanners and pat-downs upset airline passengers in U.S.

The funny thing is that all these security measures, introduced after the recent bombing scare, wouldn't have stopped that bombing from happening anyway. Why even bother? It's simply giving people the feeling that something is being done about their security.

Everybody flying regularly knows that all this just doesn't work and wouldn't stop any attacks from happening.

All this security theatre serves only two purposes a) to serve as cover-your-ass tactic for the man in charge of security and b) to sell more placebo high-tech equipment.

At the San Diego airport, a software engineer posted an Internet blog item saying he had been ejected after being threatened with a fine and lawsuit for refusing a groin check after turning down a full-body scan.

Then he should have taken the full body scan instead of a pat down with physical contact. Or was he afraid they'd see he had a tiny weenie?

But luckily for us all, terrorist are very rare and more importantly they are incapable idiots. If they would be intelligent, they would blow up the long line in front of the security checks.

So what we do is paranoid. The money would be better spent on preventing the number one death cause: cardiac arrest ...

... or protecting us from lightening strikes as more people die during the thunder storm season than by terrorist.

Under TSA rules, those who decline must submit to rigorous pat-down inspections that include checks of the inside of travelers’ thighs and buttocks.

Not to forget that "travelers" includes children. So if I as parent want to protect my child from unproven "safe" body scanners I will have it molested. And we all know how many things declared "safe" have turned out hazardous or even deadly later.

Hence this whole security madness in the US goes far too far. The Spanish and British did the right thing after their train respective bus bombing; they moved on and live their lives without paranoia.

Sadly in the US the interest of the defence industry trump the interests of the citizens. And more worrisome the pressure of the US government on foreign governments to sell this fear technology into the world is working.

I am actually happy to see that finally some US citizens stand up against this security madness as it gives hope that fatuousness hasn't yet become part of the American character.

not too much of a problem for most Japanese

Get females to perform the enhanced rubdowns to males, get robots to do the same to females. Problem half-solved!

inspections that include checks of the inside of travelers’ thighs and buttocks.

Wow!

"Spread your cheeks and lift your sack!"

"But officer, I only wanted to fly to Delaware!"

"Spread your cheeks and lift your sack, you commie draft-dodger!!"

Are these checks for EVERYONE? Or just "random" ones on people who coincidentally happen to be middle-eastern-looking?

At least they are letting people on planes.

If you don't want the 20-50x normal radiation scan -you get the hand in the pants treatment. They are pushing the pat-downs hard now in order to get people to go thru the scanner. More over-the-top Lib/Globalism, but these slaves should be getting in line to get their radiation scan.

The funny thing about this is that my wife and I have used this phrase during house cleaning for years:

If you touch my junk, I will have you arrested.

I just never thought it could have any different significance.

What I really like seeing is Sully Sullenburger finally calling it madness. I have been carping about this for years, and so has he, apparently. Basically, I agree entirely with what Johnny Edge has said and done. Everyone should go visit his blog. This security theatre is killing the airline industry and violating the public trust in so many ways. Every attempted attack has been thwarted by PASSENGERS, not these systems that pilots, MIT scientists, and security experts around the world say will not work. Pilots get frisked because.. well, why really? The pilot does not need cuticle scissors to crash a plane. All she has to do is nothing. It will crash itself, right? What are they thinking?

And if the FAA, DHS, and TSA were truly interested in security, where are the reinforced cockpit doors? We are focusing on cuticle scissors and baby formula, people.

The Tea Party should be a little more concerned about liberty and less about libertyTM, in my opinion. But no, they will let the ACLU do that for them as they cower and scrape for the billionaire tax cuts.

Remember that the friskers are not police officers, medical professionals, or any other similarly trained people. Take a look at the people looking at you naked and feeling you up. That is the face of freedom. US. 2010.

And finally, process this: Why doesn't China have this problem? Maybe the US should do what China is doing. Why is the US falling so far behind China?

Quit whining, get checked, and get on the plane and move on with your life.

How far is it to the microchip inserted under the skin?

knowitall,

You mean, at least they are letting sheeple on planes.

USNinJapan2,

Quit whining, get checked, and get on the plane and move on with your life.

Now here`s a person who loves being controlled by their government.

The "protect you from terror" reason has worn thin and its being used as a way for the elitists to gain control over your lives. And the sheeple stand by and absorb the propaganda and lies like programmed robots. Thats it that`s all.

The scanners are also coming to Canadian airports this month. Copycats.

Q: Who are the screeners? Most of them (if not all), are low-paid, questionable people that YOU DO NOT WANT TOUCHING YOU!!! Some of them are in gangs (go to LAX...) - I will say it again - Do you want these people touching you? How about a pedophile, with a badge, "selecting" young children to "pat down"??? He would love his job.... but where does it end?

Q: How many of the male screeners are gay? How many of the female screeners are lesbian?

Q:If you are selected for the full body scan, choose not to receive the radiation from the full body scan, and get patted down, will it bother you if the person touching you is gay/lesbian?

American media is inundating us with comments from 'average people', saying that if this will keep us safe, then do it! But will these measures keep us safe? The plastic explosive found in the "printer-bombs" was a type of material that does not set off alarms - bomb sniffing dogs, and sensors, cannot find this material. So the full body scan, AND the pat-down WILL NOT find this material on a terrorist...

I find it disturbing that "al-quaeda" is setting our policies:

after the failed shoe bomber, we all had to remove our shoes before boarding. -After the recent printer bombs from Yemen, we are subjected to intrusive radiation via scanners, and there is NO GUARANTY that the images will not be stored/leaked/sold in the future. Has the U.S. Government EVER been able to keep data secret?

What if the terrorist puts 2 lbs of the material up his rear? Are we all going to be strip-searched & cavity-searched in order to fly?

This is total b.s. - but this is the new world order, implementing part 2 of the plan...

pointofview

And the sheeple stand by and absorb the propaganda and lies like programmed robots. Thats it that`s all.

Sheeple or not, I'll be on the plane on the way to my destination. There are a million more important issues people should be upset about before they spend any enery on this minor inconvenience.

Piece of advice for most of you: Don't even think about flying El Al if these TSA measures upset you...

What a load of BS. Why are the yanks so paranoid about everything these days. I have only ever been to the US once (3 years ago) and the manners and ignorance of the TSA staff is just unbelievable. When going through passport control, I got shouted at for just stepping out of my line to read a sign. When I said I am just reading a sign, I got pulled aside and questioned (after being left inside a glass cubicle for all to see) I got delayed for 4 hours and missed my flight back to Japan...

The answer for me is simple, stay away from the US. I see no real benefit in going there. Secondly, there is no way I want my butt examined by some aggressive and unintelligent moron.

The next time the locals ask me why I don't go home for vacation, I'll point them towards this article

"“It’s all about everybody recognizing their role.”"

Correction.

It is all about becoming a more effective police state.

It is more about keeping the masses afraid.

It is more about exercising control over the public.

It is more about companies making profits from unneeded expensive gadgets. And lining the pockets of those advocating these machines.

It is more about extending the 911 hysteria in a time where more people die in their bathrooms every day than die at the hands of terrorists in 5 years.

My country has gone to hell in a hand cart and it seems very few people can be bothered to say so or resist the tide towards a police state.

I really don't care if they scan me or grope me either. If it stops a terrorist getting on a plane with a weapon, or deters them in some way, that's a good thing.

I really don't care if they scan me or grope me either. If it stops a terrorist getting on a plane with a weapon, or deters them in some way, that's a good thing.

They win, You lose (again). This is very, very sad.

The ones that won are the Terrorists and they don't even need to do much to keep winning.

Here are some interesting things that will melt your socks.

Breaking news. Marshalls in Florida have been using the backscatter x ray devices and saving images. Don't worry though. Just a few. Only a few. We were promised there would not be any. Travellers have specifically been assured that NONE, ZERO will be saved or leaked. Ever.

35,000 have been leaked.

100 have been posted on the internet. Go have a look on Gizmodo. Enjoy. This is the US government. Are the images safe for work? Well, if they are, then they are ineffective, and if they aren't, I would say they are a little more important than your job. This is real news.

A three year old girl was frisked in SFO because she cried when her teddy bear was taken away.

I don't really see any probable cause, so why is the government breaking the fourth amendment against everyone who flies?

"Piece of advice for most of you: Don't even think about flying El Al if these TSA measures upset you..."

Hey. You know what? My grandmother does not live in freaking Israel or Iran. Why does a three year old flying from SFO to Rapid City South Dakota to see grandma need to have a hand under her skirt to fly on an airplane? Dubuque Iowa to Kansas City Missouri? Surrender your dentures, granny and spread your legs... This is America.

Kevin: amen to most of that. When the TSA is a tool of Al Qaeda, then the Arabs don't need to oppress Americans because the TSA will do it for them.

I was looking at some of these TSA "scans" on the internet today. -And not the low-rez Gizmodo ones either. I don't really want surface x-rays of my body on the internet right now. When i am dead they can x-ray me all they want.

@tokyokawasaki

They win, You lose (again). This is very, very sad.

Please explain to us how, if we don't care and don't mind this happening to us, do we lose?

Oh, and answer without any conspiracy theory involved.

USNinJapan2: I am sorry friend but can't let you go on this. "Quit whining, get checked, and get on the plane and move on with your life."

Once you compromise freedom an liberty in favor of fear, you give up everything our country stands for.

You are being manipulated into being afraid and compliant. You are worst than sheep in the sense that you are willingly allowing the state to dictate everything to you. No better than the former Soviet Union and no better than China.

If the machines do not protect us from terror threats, which they do not, then why submit to them? And why are they there? To control us?

Increasingly we are a society that has submitted to being on camera most of our lives, having our activities monitored, filmed and recorded. We are traced by our electronic payment culture. Nothing you do is private any more. And now you are forced to choose between potentially dangerous technology and a physical intrusion. And all you have to say it "Quit Whining"?

Let me tell you something friend. Freedom comes at a cost. You must protect it, sometimes at your own risk. You must be aware of the issues and take action when something violates your privacy, liberty and protections against unreasonable searches. If you fail to do so, out of appathy or indifference, then you are part of the greater problem.

If you believe in freedom, it is time to stop being terrified sheep and start instead to resist the move towards a comprehensive police state.

Obama's brave new America.

Modern citizens have become mindless texting sheep who submit to anything, anyone tells them to do. Whether company, government or other source, people just mindlessly go along with everything.

How wrong Orwell was. You don't need a repressive state with military power, mass propaganda and strict individual control to turn the masses into robots. All you need is a proper villain, a hand full of trivial distactions (sports, celebrities, textmail) and the masses will melt into robots with zero awareness. Wonder what he would say if he could see all this?

How wrong Orwell was...Wonder what he would say if he could see all this?

He'd probably say, "Quit whining."

While they pat down genitals on grandmas and little children, CAIR is campaigning for an exception for burkha-wearers: only pat-down on the neck area allowed, everything else is a religious insult.

When asked about it, Napolitano vaguely said there would be some compromises.

So there you have it... want to travel without harrassment, get a burkha.

You can “say”, “do” and “sell” anything if the product/idea is packaged in fear. Fear of cancer/disease, lightning/earthquake, war/terrorism, etc. When building these scanners, the designers considered that someone might wear cotton, polyester or leather, long heavy dresses/winter underclothing, etc. The scan has to be strong, and if there are health concerns just label it under “necessary risk”. When undergoing a scan at a doctor’s office, the scan is focused at a specific area. These airport scans cover your entire body, whether a child or adult. Have you ever wondered why everyone rushes out of the room when you’re about to be scanned at a doctor’s office? But don’t feel bad, there are people standing by these machines all day working (is it safe to be next to these machines for a long period of time). People go to sleep afraid and wake up afraid, they willing risk their love ones being scanned over and over again, to fight wars, etc., just to ease their fears. However, people in power never risk their love ones.

Obama appointee Janet Napolitano is the head of Homeland Security. She stated publicly that the 9-11 terrorists entered the country through Canada. A complete idiot, the kind the Democrat Party rewards. We are supposed to be thrilled that a woman got the job as head of Homeland Sec and just shut up. American citizens get groped at the airport and threatened with arrest; illegal aliens get healthcare and in-state tuition in California, as the state circles the drain. Imagine the hysteria and faux indignation from the people who voted for Obama and Napolitano if anyone entering our southern border were forced to undergo the same unconstitutional procedures children as young as three are now forced to endure at the airport.

Of course the next step is a body cavity search, care of a gloved and lubricated finger that gets inserted to quickly check for any internally-inserted parts used for terrorism. They'll also do a quick prostate check for the guys.

"Please explain to us how, if we don't care and don't mind this happening to us, do we lose?"

Our constitution protects us from unwarranted search. It also protects our right to privacy. We are also protected in principle from being subjected to unwarranted danger.

A. We should be able to refuse being subjected to technology that exposes us to radiation.

B. We should be able to refuse an undue search that exposes our bodies to unwarranted invasion of privacy.

C. We should be able to refuse being physically violated by unwarranted touching.

D. We should be able to ask for and expect proper rationale for such measures. When measures like this are clearly not solving problems, we should be able to push back.

A free society should and must resist infringements upon our rights and privacy. this is not about conspiracies. It IS about the protection of liberty in a civil, free and democratic society. Fear should not replace common sense or the individual obligation to protect our national liberties.

If you don't want to go thru the TSA checkpoint (scanner/pat-down etc) the "fine" is $11,000. I understand the fines will help pay for Obama's vacation, but that is still kind of high for most people.

For a family of 4, instead of being fined you could charter a private jet and fly like Pelosi does.

Badsey and MisterCreosote. You know, this isn't a liberal/conservative issue friends. This is a fundamental liberties issue. I know you like to take shots at Obama any chance you get, but friends this would be happening on McCain's watch had he been elected. This hysteria is both GOP and DEM, because both are influenced by the same people who want to keep everyone terrified and all those companies in the black making pointless machines for security.

So how about dropping the partisanship BS for one day and joining the call to reverse the fear mongering in favor of some rational thinking about the threat of terror and our transportation systems.

USNinJapan2,

Sounds the guns are ready to be pulled from your holsters.

Are you gonna say quit whining at everything the NWO throws at us? If so, the Amendments have no value.

MrDog,

Your conspiracy theorists are your government. Do the research. They can cover up anything and the minute you question it you become a terrorist. Naive folks running this world.

Naive folks running around in this world.

This hysteria is both GOP and DEM, because both are influenced by the same people who want to keep everyone terrified and all those companies in the black making pointless machines for security.

Who, precisely, are the people who want to keep everyone terrified? Not naming them is every bit as disingenuous as what you claim of those who you believe are 'politicizing' the issue.

And sorry but IMO the Democrat administration currently in power needs to answer for this.

Or it looks like there might be consequences:

"Tea Party Nation founder: TSA scanners and body searches are abusive, appalling, unconstitutional"

CA Independent Voter Network

tkoind2, pointofview, et al.

Assuming you live in the US or travel to and from there, does this mean that you won't be boarding any commercial airliners while these current security measures are in place? You certainly are preaching impassionately as though the line has been crossed for you and submitting to these requirements is unacceptable, but what will you do if/when you have to fly somewhere?

Wow.

I don't think it's ineptitude nor CYA. It basically boils down to being at the beginning of the learning curve of what works.

Sure, right now they are going for the easy way out -examine everyone and everything (all the while, missing other measures which could make this a simpler affair.

If you were to look at how Ben Gurion operates, you'd know that they have about 6 to 7 layers of security --as you approach the airport, as you enter the premises, as you approach the line, as you engage the airline counter, as you go thru a security check, your luggage gets scanned, you get asked questions multiple times and you get profiled (no, not the PC term, but I mean, you are categorized and treated accordingly). All the while multiple people are watching you intently and looking you straight in the eye, looking for behavioral abnormalities --and they have random pat-downs as well, just for kicks.

Now, Ben Gurion is not a high volume airport, so they can take that approach --however, keep in mind, it took them a few decades to arrive at this approach. They also engaged in the obvious but not efficient method used in North America. And you say, "fine", but "can't they just take the lesson and run with it?" There are many things which people or entities have to learn for themselves before acknowledging something as superior. It human nature.

So, I'd look in this direction rather then the idiotic conspiracy theories about "selling fear", "CYA", "ignorance", "placebo", etc. When you do that you show that you have not bothered to think too much and just go with what's easy for you to accept.

knowitall. really? Had not heard that. Why? Are terrorists mailing themselves to the US now to do suicide bombings?

There was a time, long long ago, when the word "reactionary" applied to people or governments who would fly off the handle the moment any little thing happened. Now it seems the word has been redefined as "business as usual" in a world where governments and people over react to the point of absurdity.

The facts are these.... Most of you out there will die from something completely mundane and pointless. A slip in the shower, a piece of chicken down the wrong pipe, a momentary lapse of awareness resulting in an accident.

Terrorists are not in the top 10,000 causes of death friends so get on with life already.

Also...

Saying, or implying that the current methods are "theatre" is like claiming that b/c there is low crime that police are redundant. It's a low hanging fruit and it makes any attempt more difficult --tho by no means impossible. Just like a guard at a bank --they are not going to stop well prepared thieves (pull a heist), but they will deter most "amateur" stick up artists.

USNinJapan2 "this mean that you won't be boarding any commercial airliners..."

Usually I go home to the US as rarely as possible. Not that I love Japan that much, but I hate dealing with flying.

I will go home for the holidays. May submit to the pat down rather than the machine. But I will certainly join the growing chorus of people who are against this and demanding that it be reversed and the policy improved.

“It’s all about everybody recognizing their hole.”

Charming. The US has become a masochists wet dream.

knowitall.

New Airmail rules to the USA came into affect today, were announced 1st time on the 12th.

Shippers that have a regular accounts with JP are not affected, like online shops, etc. Been widely discussed on the Net and Forums for a few days now.

Nothing to see here folks, move along and quit yer whining.

trulymadlyfukai. brilliant. Well so much for people caring about their privacy and liberties. Afterall the remote chance of getting killed by a terrorist certainly outweights any trivial concerns about the constitution or bill of rights.

I mean sure, you are more likely to die from the bite of an errant Egyptian scorpion in Toledo than you are to be killed by a terrorist. But why should that temper your hysteria. Go ahead and freak out. After all, it makes money for all those lonely security products companies.

And in the end, we all feel safer right? Despite the fact that the machines don't actually protect us from anything.

Wow, what a wonderful generation of people living to the fullest extent to protect the rights and liberties of America. I can rest happy now.

Terrorists are not in the top 10,000 causes of death friends so get on with life already.

I think you are either forgetting or ignoring that terrorism isn't about killing as many people as possible --it's about terrorizing. It's an externality over which people have little control --thus seek to avoid the risk more than the numbers would suggest they should.

When you drive, you can drive defensively and thus avoid most circumstantial accidents (likewise, one can avoid smoking, or other behavior which could lead to premature death). If roadways had hatches which swallowed random autos, or subways had seats which randomly ejected passengers 200m into the air (altho let's say very, very rarely), do you think people would say "well, it's only a rare occurrence, so, I'll nevermind?"

No, there is a psychology behind it. That is why it's such a huge issue. so stop pretending it's just a rational issue.

tkoind2

I will go home for the holidays. May submit to the pat down rather than the machine. But I will certainly join the growing chorus of people who are against this and demanding that it be reversed and the policy improved.

But just not in any way that would jeopardize your boarding your flight right? If this is so critical an issue (it's a constitutional matter for you remember?) I would think that one would not acquiesce so readily just in the name of convenience. After the soap box you've been on here you'd be a hypocrite to submit to either the scan or the pat down.

But why should that temper your hysteria. Go ahead and freak out.

The only hysteria and freaking out here is on your part and the other folk upset by these security measures. Epic irony.

I think you are either forgetting or ignoring that terrorism isn't about killing as many people as possible --it's about terrorizing.

Yeah, and hyperactive security measures are such an after effect of being terrorized. In other words, it's letting the terrorists do what they wanted to do in the first place - sow fear and confusion, force the West to change how it lives and travels, keep them and their cause in the news.

DHS and the chicken little security crowd allow the terrorists to win again and again.

USNinJapan2,

Based on your last comment you have just admitted that control has reached the point of no return. The elitists will find ways to make you conform to whatever they say because they have the entire world in a paranoid state. They will implement ridiculous security measures, taxes, fees, rules etc. and you will have no choice. They no that and thats why they do it. It is very clear that the masses dont want these scanners yet the elitist do whatever they feel. If you challenge anything these days you will be disciplined somehow.

I'm already subjected to extra radiation by getting on the plane in the first place. I don't want to be a mutant. I'd gladly take the pat-down over the scanner.

Yeah, and hyperactive security measures are such an after effect of being terrorized. In other words, it's letting the terrorists do what they wanted to do in the first place - sow fear and confusion, force the West to change how it lives and travels, keep them and their cause in the news.

Not really. You are deforming the issue. Do you actually believe that the people in line are fearful and confused? (That's what you are claiming).

Israel, with the constant threat (yes, they have daily threats) have had to adapt (i.e change their ways. Did you have to look out for identity thieves 15 years ago? The landscape has changed and you have had to change how you regard your identity (or not, but at your own unmitigated risk).

As realities change either you change and adapt to new circumstances, or you can ignore and pretend they aren't there. I mean, it's cool. I ain't going to hate on you for it, but it's a bit of wishful thinking.

I mean, effit, go to any conflict area, you're most likely none of their interest, so you will most likely not be caught in the crossfire, right, so why avoid such?

Repeal Homeland Security, and repeal the Patriot Act!

I have seen reports which suggest that the scanning may not be working all that well; apparently it doesn't like pleats or thick clothing, such as sweaters. If there is a problem with the scan, then you get the pat down as well. Only "pat down" is not an accurate description anymore; touch up and grope is more like it. Enjoy!

Just one more reason not to travel to the US. And now this just as the US travel industry has been complaining because international tourists are going elsewhere rather than deal with the new visa / security procedures. As @tkoind2 points out, this is just another "reactionary" knee-jerk charade to make us feel safe. Let me see, first it was the shoe bomber = take off shoes, coat, and laptop out of bag. Then the Liquid bomber scare = no more carry on drinks, baby formula, tooth-paste, now the Explosives scare = Full body scan. If some creative terrorist comes up with a way to make a knife out of an eye glasses frame and a cell phone, will those things be banned next? Where does it end people? Terrorists will find a way. And speaking of which, how about a little more profiling instead? Serious question: aside from Tim McVie (Oklahoma Bomber) can anyone name an incident anywhere in the US or the world against American's committed by a NON Islamic/Muslim terrorist? Just askin'.

Timothy McVeigh was a CIA operative and Oklahoma City was used to bolster Clinton's public approval ratings. =Since Obama's ratings are so low (<15%) you have many Dem Lib Ops saying "Obama needs an Oklahoma city". -This opportunity becomes more probable with people protesting these scans.

You are getting a look at the dirtier side of Gov (Globalism) now since they are pushing their agenda so hard. These "scans" were not so bad when women/children were targeted -but now it is the men being targeted and the physical pat-downs have gone beyond the typical physical even a Dr would give.

(t h a t is w h y some p e o pl e are w r it ing l i k e thi s) -escaping the google text scans.

Timothy McVeigh was a CIA operative and Oklahoma City was used to bolster Clinton's public approval ratings. =Since Obama's ratings are so low (

Wow! That is some koolaid. So.....like every right-wing terrorist (and there are so many--what was that biblical group that was all arrested a few months ago?) are CIA operatives? No such thing as a right-wing terrorist. Have you NOT read Ann Ryand which recommended terrorism?

I fixed, stay home

I'm not a terrorist, just a patsy.

This is what the world needs. More human contact. You should forgo the scanner and opt for the rubdown. You'll love it. It's like a massage.

Oh no! Do not touch my body, protect my human rights and do not look at the fancy x ray machine to see what a fat bloody cow I really am?? What a bunch of BS! All you ignorant people crying about your civil liberties, just remember, all it takes is one LUCKY terrorist to get on YOUR PLANE, and if he or she has enough brains to light a match in their underwear etc..you bleeding heart liberals will be on the evening news, example United Airlines blah, blah, blah explodes over Los Angeles JUST BEFORE LANDING, some nice looking young fellow may have been hiding lots of exlposives in his underpants, but no the TSA felt guilty about patting him down so he was allowed to get on board from Paris to Los Angeles, and all 455 passengers and crew have been killed in the name of Allah for Christmas.

There seems to be some fundamental misunderstanding here. The TSA does not, so far as I know, operate outside of US airports, so it is not going to prevent terrorists getting on planes and flying to America. Of course, most other countries that have direct flights are already implementing the scanners, useless though they are. But the new directives about intimate searching are a special treat for travelers boarding internal and external flights within the US. I guess that the TSA are worried that too many people are going to refuse the scan, thus holding up the line, and so they are making the alternative as uncomfortable and undignified as possible.

I don't think I would mind the pat downs as much if I was under the impression that TSA personnel weren't just glorified, obese mall cops. And the next time I fly, I will ask for a female to pat me down. No need to not enjoy it.

Taka

Two groups are having quite the good laugh these days: manufacturers of body scanners and other "security" devices, and the terrorists.

USNin

I have cancelled 10 round trips to the US this year for the sole reason that dealing with the security measures is distasteful. I changed my plans specifically to avoid the carp. I specifically avoid US carriers and specifically avoid flying through the US. No kidding. I think a lot of other people do the same. A lot of others just gave up and admit they are sheep while muttering excuses.

I have nothing to hide, of course, but I can't handle the cognitive dissonance of bending over and singing the Star Spangled Banner at the same time. I guess you can. You get used to it in the military. You just do what they tell you to do. But I still don't get how you think this groping by the TSA jibes with your oath to defend the constitution.

How does that grab you?

"Have you NOT read Ann Ryand which recommended terrorism?"

Oh. Mr. Rat. I like you more and more each day. It was Atlas Shrugged, right? That pirate guy.... Ragnar Danneskjold. Is that it? Yes. I can't remember what his moral contortions were, but it is not so much different from Tea Party drivel. "Stealing and destroying some illegitimate world order are moral rights." or something like that.

Even John Galt let all the trains crash, if I remember correctly.

Keep fighting the good fight rat. I really wonder why the Tea Party sees nothing wrong with all the 1984 stuff in the Patriot Act. I think it gives a good indication of who is running their show for them.

M53c2 sounds so reasonable and insists that we just need to be patient enough to let the fascist state find its feet.

"It basically boils down to being at the beginning of the learning curve of what works."

Gee. I would think that 8 years would be enough. I also think that the different layers are being way overlooked by you for obvious reasons. Thinking that this whole argument is about being patted down masks how intrusive it all is. Can I list all the measures? Someone let me know if I miss anything. Visa application. Passport application. No fly list. EST list or whatever it is called. Luggage and carry on packing restrictions. Credit card vs. cash. Special meal requested. Camera surveillance at ticket counter. Did you personally pack your bags? Unusual seat request. Photo ID required. Unusual flag. Luggage x ray. Present boarding pass and photo ID. Take off shoes. Take off over garments. Remove belts. Remove prostheses, eyeglasses, etc. Remove and possibly present computing devices. Do so for every one of your children. X ray of all belongings. Metal detector. Wanding if failed. Backscatter or groping. Camera surveillance.

I count what I would consider 20 or more intrusions or surveillances of perfectly normal law abiding people BEFORE anyone gets blasted with radiation or gets groped. When is enough enough? Ben Gurion has 6 layers? Well the TSA has tripled that already, so when does this learning curve kick in sir? And all of that information is retained and routinely lost and misplaced. And now nudity or sexual assault is a requirement for flying.

Yeah. Ok. It is whining. But I tell you what. I have to do travel to communist countries every once in a while, and although I feel some twinges about privacy, it pales compared to what my family in the US will have to go through to fly from Des Moines to Virginia this Thanksgiving.

And I DO know that private jets are the way to go. Just hypothetically, if I can afford one, should I stop whining? Please let me know if that is what good citizenship is all about. Is that what Jimmy Stewart would do?

I also have cut down on my air travel. I once enjoyed flying, now it is just a hassle , and have you seen the video of the 3 year old girl being terrorized by the ignorant TSA worker.. very disturbing. I am sure there is going to be some fist flying this busy holiday travel season.

The TSA and their over the top scanning does nothing to make you safer. The only thing that stops terrorists is good intelligence. Name one time anyone has been apprehended at the airport.

lostrune2: Sadly my senator Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, the only senator to vote against the Patriot Act was defeated in the recent election. My countrymen are too fooled to ever repeal the Patriot Act, they believe the shrieking that there's a Jihadi in every boarding line.

America overeacts yet again. And a similar overreaction is the fact that items from abroad weighing over 453 Grammes (16Oz) cannot be sent by Japan Post to America from 17th Nov. If you are thinking of sending home big pressies then think again.

Please explain to us how, if we don't care and don't mind this happening to us, do we lose?

Mr.Dog are you seriously asking this question? It all seems innocent enough; 'we're at war with the terrorists, we must give up some of our civil/basic human/decency rights to "protect us". Shrug a shoulder and don't give it a thought. Until the stakes go up, and up, and up - and pretty soon you are living in a police state. Oh, it's to 'protect you brother' so no worries. There is some truth to the old 'first they came for my neighbor....(Google it if you haven't heard it before). The 'State' is famous for taking away liberties of the citizenry 'for their protection'. Usually you never get those freedoms back, and it only gets worse. Yes, it's only being searched to get on an airplane - but what's next? And for what?

A group of third world murderers get 'lucky' and kill a bunch of Americans, so now we sh*t-can the constitution and our civil rights so that the government can keep us safe. Right. Never heard that one before. I'd rather keep my freedoms and risk being blown to smithereens thank you. Although as one poster stated, if the cavity searches could be done by hot females....

I think a good portion of the male population would mind a pat down from a pretty lady...

The 'State' is famous for taking away liberties of the citizenry 'for their protection'. Usually you never get those freedoms back, and it only gets worse. Yes, it's only being searched to get on an airplane - but what's next?

Why is this always the problem? Some imaginary scenario that leeds to everyone losing their freedom. You never had the right to just board a plane without going through the security check. So now it is going to be more intense. Don't fly if you don't like it. Better yet, buy your own plane and you won't have these issues.

I get tired of everyone acting like they had some freedom to fly however they wanted to before. Buy your ticket. Go through the screening process and STFU. I've never been searched to get on a plane, but I wouldn't care if they wanted to search me if I kept setting of the detectors that have been there since the day I started flying domestically and internationally over 30 years ago.

Americans are a bunch of babies. I wish they ONLY checked for bombs and weapons (if you know what I mean).

And the next time I fly, I will ask for a female to pat me down. No need to not enjoy it.

Being America Taka you're gonna get a fat one. Hope you like the pat down. You have weirder taste than I do that's for sure.

mikehuntez,

I will be sure and request a thinner and better looking agent. And believe me, I will. That is exactly how much I hate the TSA.

Taka

just wondering how long before a few brave souls just strip it all off... after all if they want to see, just show 'em.

Have to fly to the US soon on business and not looking forward to it unless the TSA follows taka's suggestion and starts hiring Hooters girls as screeners, and then change their name from the TSA to the T&A.

Also for anyone considering flying through Canada as an alternative to the US, we have the full body scanners too, even for domestic flights.

"I am sure there is going to be some fist flying this busy holiday travel season."

Boy you nailed that one. TSA guy got punched today. Everyone is looking around for an explanation for what is going on. I think what it comes down to is that air travellers have put up with too much for too long and feel that there is no effect at all from their complaints. Frustration is boiling over. Fear is turning to anger. The TSA should have seen this coming.

A typical TSA response is to say, "How can people treat trained TSA agents this way? They are just doing their jobs." Well, the "just following orders" thing does not fly when the public never really had a chance to "agree" to any of this. And where are the reinforced cockpit doors?

Reports have come out today of a TSA agent indicted for raping a 14 year old, but allowed to view children naked on a scanner. I think he was "just doing his job" too. MSNBC is reporting how easy it is to steal images from these machines. Many news services are reporting how rich Chertoff of Rapiscan is getting from all of this.

Hereandthere: I have an idea for a protest. Spandex. Full body spandex under an overcoat. You look like a normal traveller, but off comes the overcoat revealing, well, everything. So what do they do if you say you don't want a body scan? Search you? Well. Why? If you can't see it under spandex, you can't feel it either. Now THAT would be good theater. Some goon running his hands over a fat guy in spandex, feeling and groping for ... what?

"never had the right to just board a plane without going through the security check. "

Ignorant. Yes. You did. You really did. What are you, a teenager? And you still can "just board a plane" if you have a private aircraft. Your very ignorant statement shows how far you and others have been totally brainwashed. You now believe, just as Winston Smith did, that "we have always been at war with Oceania." If you can believe it, I have news clippings from a time when the US was not at war with Iraq. I save them just for people like you. America was not always this way, and you don't know what you are talking about.

Check out the Penn and Teller web site. One of the guys was felt up at McCarran in Las Vegas, and he complained. Here was the TSA response:

You are free to go. He said no. He asked for a supervisor and the police.

You will miss your plane if you file a complaint. He said fine, he would take his private jet if he had to.

We will treat you specially if you withdraw your complaint and do not file charges. A supervisor offered to be at the gate any time he needed to fly. He asked them who would take care of the little guy's rights.

So there it is. They tried to bully him. When they couldn't do that, they tried to co-opt him. Does THAT sound like an agency that cares about dealing with the public? Nope. So tell me, at what point would YOU just give up and let the government do whatever it wants to you? And are you going to leave this battle for civil rights up to the housewives and grandmothers of America? Who can afford cancelled airplane tickets?

Name one time anyone has been apprehended at the airport.

That's totally a false analogy. That's like saying "name one time someone was able to land a hook on mr. Kan" Surely someone might want to but hasn't due to the security detail. You are also assuming such incidents would become public knowledge.

BTW, in no way am I saying that the current implementation is efficient --it's not. They have a lot to learn and it may be that public pressure will have them adapt quicker than they would have had people not protested --none the less, it would be a stretch to say it's ineffective.

It would also be a stretch to say that it's invasion of privacy. The backscatter image of you is not personally identifiable nor is it that more interesting than that of the person next to you (i.e you are really not that special). It's pure hysterics to cry "privacy". When you opt to take an aircraft, by implication, you are subjecting yourself to FAA regulation.

Now, you might not agree and you have the right to protest and vent your disagreement in a proper forum. But going berserk and making wild claims is unproductive. Use your brain, participate in constructive criticism and help to build a better way at screening for troublemakers.

The main issues are:

What can [they] do to make flying as free of terror as possible. How can that be achieved with efficiency. How can that be done with as little inconvenience within reason. How can it be scaled (to handle millions of passengers). How can it all be done while being mindful of civil liberties.

Saying "I hate it b/c, well, I dunno, my friend or some blogger I sometimes agree with and helps me form my opinions says so" is not enough.

100 have been posted on the internet. Go have a look on Gizmodo. Enjoy. This is the US government. Are the images safe for work? Well, if they are, then they are ineffective, and if they aren't, I would say they are a little more important than your job. This is real news.

Uhhuh. Those images were not from TSA devices. They were from devices at a federal courthouse. The images were obtained via the freedom of information act --i.e. they were not leaked.

Keep up your nice disinformation act.

This is all about hysteria, control and profits. Plain and simple.

Hysteria: Keep the public afraid and you keep them passive.

Control: Implement control over movement, tracking of behavior and activities, monitor communications, ID and track potential trouble makers and film everything. This is all about control. From the Patriot Act forward the US has used 911 to implement more capacity for and more actual control over the American people.

Profits: Endless opportunities for new security services, products etc... A lot of people are getting rich off this hysteria.

Solutions

Implement reasonable measures that do not violate privacy or civil liberties.

Allow public input to measures. Let the people have a say.

Stop freaking out and realistically look at the threat and respond accordingly.

Work on policies that may help avoid conflicts that lead to people wanting to kill us.

This is the change in times. The screening is not a problem. Nobody is forcing you to use the airlines. You have options of other transportation. Take your car, ride a bus, train, boat or buy yourself your own plane. Give a credit to the security. They are trying their best to keep people safe.

sfjp330. Nonsense! If you live in NY and your family is in LA how reasonable is it to drive? Get real friend!

"They are trying their best to keep people safe."

But experts agree this does not keep people any more safe than the previous measures. So how do you explain that?

Do you care more about safety than liberty and civil rights? If so, I can point you to some totalitarian states that are very safe where you can have even more of your life "made safe."

Do you care more about safety than liberty and civil rights?

Yes. If I have to be on a plane with someone threatening to blow it up because your "civil liberties and civil rights" had to be protected then I'd be a bit upset. You can opt out of that mode of transport if you so desire. I prefer the heightened security. It may not be perfect but I'm glad it's there to filter more of those from blowing up their shoes, underwear or whatnot in the name of perceived wrongs on their religion.

mikehuntez. How many times has that happened in the entire time airplanes have existed? I don't hear you trying to do more to stop the guy smoking next to you in a cafe. that guy is killing you faster and more effectively than any terrorist.

Your reaction is pure hysteria. More people will die today trying to go to work than died in all the terror attacks on planes combined. The plane is more likely to go down due to error or malfunction that to terror.

Come on people, life is dangerous. Nothing you do, NOTHING, will make you 100% safe. So why submit to things that violate your liberties if they don't really protect you? It is blatant stupidity to think terrorists are going to kill you. Unless you happen to be standing in a Taliban controlled town in Afghanistan, and even then the chances are not that high.

Calm down!

One more thing. Do you remember Mumbai and Madrid? No planes involved. If terrorists really want to kill Americans, they will find a way. And there is no insurance against that save for one thing.

Work today to make sure our policies do not invite attacks.

Security is a superstition - irrational. The insecure sheeple demand it more than anybody else.

I was thinking of going to Hawaii for a vacation. does all this happen in US Island destinations as well? If so, I am not going to get bombarded with radiation or patted down by anyone.

bobbafett. Same here. Where it not for a promise to visit family after a two year absence, I would not go to the US either. I would go somewhere rational for a vacation where I don't have to endure being treated like a terrorist.

The US has become insane with fear and security. Really sad. I guess the terrorists won after all.

I guess the terrorists won after all.

You guessed wrong. Terrorists tick a win when they breach security and cause mayhem. Altering how people are screened to introduce some added security is not "winning" in their minds nor in most rational minds.

Do you think terrorists are salivating at the fact that people are a little inconvenienced or that some people feel they are being patted down? No, not really. That is not their intent and they will not rest at that --i.e no where no way is that their goal. Their goal is to inflict instability through terror.

Just like your having to use h'ttps in your browser when doing secure transactions over your browser is not "hackers winning". Seeing AntiVirus on your computer as one precaution among many to decrease susceptibility to hackers is not "hackers winning" either (they win when they compromise your transaction). So, in that same respect adding some security protocols to air travel is not "the terrorists winning". It's more your not understanding --and more likely your misrepresenting for the sake of your apparent big-brother paranoia.

Now, that's to say the TSA is infallible and should not be questioned. There are very legitimate questions to ask of them --but saying that it's all theater and it does nothing and that doing it is "terrorists winning" is complete utter rubbish.

^ ... that's not to say....

"You guessed wrong. Terrorists tick a win when they breach security and cause mayhem."

I firmly disagree. Terrorists win when we do the following.

Allow our way of life to be disrupted.

Compromise our liberties out of fear.

Change the way we live to adjust to our fear of terror.

Engage in activities that are contrary to our morality e.g. violating privacy, subjecting people to undue search, passing repressive legislation.

The terrorists have successfuly made us so afraid that we have

radically changed the survellance nature of our society,

we have resorted to violating the very liberties and freedoms that we believe define our society. Thus failing to defend our way of life and surrendering to their campaign of fear.

resorted to unjust wars, torture and other activities that are contrary to our fundamental beliefs.

caused us to bankrupt our society fighting them.

These are precisely the kind of wins the terrorists wanted, and they frequently say so in their rhetoric today. They win, we lose.

If you want to win. Do what Spain and India have done. Pick up the pieces. Implement some rational security improvements and get on with living the way you did before the attack.

In this case terrorists lose. And lose big.

I find it hard to believe that people who go to training camps in remote inaccessible areas to learn how to handle fire arms, explosives, chemicals, etc. will find satisfaction in behavioral changes in the West.

[terrorist1: did you see that, millions of travellers in the West have to get patted down or go thru backscatter scanners --man, we won, those little effing infidels lost. Terrorist 2, eff yeah!] Do you think they actually find fulfillment in that? N effing O.

You must know about some rogue psychologists who became terrorists b/c to believe what you believe is rather implausible given their behavior.

I mean, using my previous analogy, do you have no firewall on your computer, have no antivirus running and only allow non secure h'ttp connections on your browser and refuse to use VPN cuz, well, that would give in to Hackers and Hackers would win if you did take security precautions? If you don't, you defeat your argument.

The terrorists win when people sacrifice their reason and logic on the altar of security and nations bankrupt themselves morally and financially with "wars on terror".

The terrorists win when people sacrifice their reason and logic on the altar of security and nations bankrupt themselves morally and financially with "wars on terror".

So you're saying people like Tim McVeigh, ETA members, IRA, Hezb'allah, AlQaeda seek to "win" by having nations change some of their security protocols? Man, you need to call those terrorists right quick and tell them to come back from their training camps cuz they're going about it the wrong way.

Let's not get into your conflating argument about "wars on terror" b/c that was never part of this discussion. I mean, we could take it up, but that's a whole different subject and you are just trying to conflate things for no other reason than distract people from the argument at hand.

So this new "Radiation or Rape" security choice is being implemented to detect explosives. Great, why not use another method which is 1. cheaper 2. more effective 3. a lot faster and 4. puts a smile on your face . . dogs trained to smell explosives? Our fantastic canine friends beat machines at detection every time for sniffing out drugs, agriculture, explosives, or milk bones, and their only reward is attention. I would happily submit to being sniffed up by a dog anytime.

If they figure out how to train box cutter-sniffing dogs, you may have something there.

"I find it hard to believe that people who go to training camps in remote inaccessible areas to learn how to handle fire arms, explosives, chemicals, etc. will find satisfaction in behavioral changes in the West."

Rule 1 in any conflict, do not underestimate your opponnent. It isn't the footsoldier in the training camp you need to care about. It is the guy that the combined intelligence agencies of the world cannot catch or don't know about that you need to consider.

These people are smart, funded and savy. To think otherwise if foolish.

"So you're saying people like Tim McVeigh, ETA members, IRA, Hezb'allah, AlQaeda seek to "win" by having nations change some of their security protocols?"

No, I am saying that they win when they make us compromise our way of life in favor of fear. Read my posts I think I was very clear on these points.

I think it is pretty simple really. The terrorist wants to cause terror. He wants to disrupt your way of living. He wants to cause economic and physical damage. Simple. Right?

When he blows up a plane he does the physical harm. Then follows the terror as society reacts with fear, anger and often repression. Then follows the disruption as the continued threat makes us spend money on security, struggle to reassure our people and take steps to respond.

Terrorists when especially when our reaction flys in the face of who we are. When we give up our liberties, freedoms and values in exchange for the illusion of security, then they can see the impact upon us. That is perhaps the greatest loss we submit to.

m5c32:

.....define terrorism as the deliberate creation and exploitation of fear through violence or the threat of violence in the pursuit of political change. All terrorist acts involve violence or the threat of violence. Terrorism is specifically designed to have far-reaching psychological effects beyond the immediate victim(s) or object of the terrorist attack. It is meant to instil fear within, and thereby intimidate, a wider `target audience' that might include a rival ethnic or religious group, an entire country, a national government or political party, or public opinion in general. Terrorism is designed to create power where there is none or to consolidate power where there is very little. Through the publicity generated by their violence, terrorists seek to obtain the leverage, influence and power they otherwise lack to effect political change on either a local or an international scale.

Source NY Times, Bruce Hoffmann "Inside Terrorism". Plenty of similar thoughts by informed sources on the net.

I firmly disagree. Terrorists win when we do the following.

Totally agree. These terrorist are like homicidal 2-year olds. Attention and their cause is the goal, not mayhem. They got mayhem, though - just cultural mayhem. They haven't even had to attack the US anymore, they've allowed the US to tie the rope around its own neck with unnecessary wars changing its way of life and its cherished freedoms.

Freedom for security? The worst exchange of all time. Lots of places have security. North Korea has security. Freedom is so difficult to come by yet Americans chuck it away in the name of the minuscule chance that they might, possibly, maybe be 0.0000001% safer.

I'm avoiding flying to the US and these virtual strip machines as much as I possibly can.

tigris. Very good definition.

One means of creating political change is to extort your enemy into changing. But another political win is to be able to prod your enemy into actions that paint him negatively in the eyes of world opinion.

The terrorists have successfully done exactly that when the US used rendition and torture on prisoners. They won again with Iraqi prisons and Guantanamo Bay. And still again as the US implemented the Patriot Acts and their far reaching violations of civil liberties.

US propaganda says "We are the defenders of freedom." The terrorist then attack us and illustrate that this simply is not the case and gather an increasing number of examples where we violate the freedom of our own people as well as those of the world.

We have to hold the moral an intellectual high ground in the battle against terror. Preserve our liberties despite the fear. Stick to our values and beliefs despite the threat. And never give the terrorist movement the satisfaction of painting us in a negative light or of seeing us live our lives in fear. Then WE win.

If they figure out how to train box cutter-sniffing dogs, you may have something there.

I think that the dogs only need be trained to sniff out the hormones humans release when they are incredibly tense about something like trying to get a bomb on-board a passenger jet.

.... to extort your enemy into changing.

...and divert resources. While the US has now a state of the art security 'system' wasting billions (obstructing free movement, trade, travel, 'preventive' wars) there are now more beggars on the street of big US cities than in many 3rd World countries.

Dogs... Just got back from Chicago. No full body scanners yet, but sniffer dogs on the bridge to the plane. Much more sensible and cheap as DC2020 points out.

"Uhhuh. Those images were not from TSA devices. They were from devices at a federal courthouse. The images were obtained via the freedom of information act --i.e. they were not leaked."

Made you look, didn't I? Those were federally administered machines. They stored images and feds said they wouldn't. Keep in mind that FOIA is available to ANYONE, so those leaked images were released by the feds because they legally had to. And do have to. To anybody. MSNBC has already run stories of leaked images. It is only a matter of time. Mark my words. People using these exact same scanners have misused images in England, Nigeria, and Italy already. Deny that it will happen in the US. The TSA has already promised it won't, but you know it is coming.

Think of the TSA's assaults and the invasions and the creepiness as your first taste of ObamaCare.

tkoind

"So you're saying people like Tim McVeigh, ETA members, IRA, Hezb'allah, AlQaeda seek to "win" by having nations change some of their security protocols?"

Nice try. But McVeigh targeted a building, not an airborne jetliner. The ETA does not fly planes into skyscrapers. The IRA does not produce suicide bombers screaming "Christ is King" as they try to detonate a shoe bomb 20 thousand feet above sea level and bring down a jet full of innocent people.

But you got the Hezbollah and Al Qaeda part right.

I will repeat that I have decided against spending more than 10000 dollars this year on flights to the US, and at least that much on hotels, dining, etc. just to avoid the lines and goons. That is discretion. I go someplace else on other airlines. Personally, I don't want to deal with it, but I feel bad for others who have to endure these theatrics.

SHAPIRO VS. THOMPSON 394 U.S. 618 (1969)means that people DO have a right to travel. It is not something that the government can take away if you don't agree to give up your fourth amendment rights.

Sully, MIT, and numerous experts on the matter have questioned the methods and systems used by the TSA. I won't buy the argument that something bad will happen if Americans don't give up their inalienable rights. Smart people are calling for an end to the charade, and the only thing keeping it going is a trauma that occurred a decade ago. It is not time to beef up the fences and barbed wire. It is time to start taking them down.

I can't believe somebody mentioned box cutters. I think "taking over an aircraft using boxcutters" became obsolete on about 9 12 2001. Searches or no searches, that will never happen again. But it shows that people are living their whole lives with that decade old fear and trauma.

MisterCreosote:"Think of the TSA's assaults and the invasions and the creepiness as your first taste of ObamaCare."

These scanners were in the works long before Obama took office and would be still in the works had he not won give everyone a break and actually look at the facts and history behind their existence.

Klein2:". I won't buy the argument that something bad will happen if Americans don't give up their inalienable rights"

You Americans are hilarious with all your screaming about your "inalienable rights" something you are all so willing to take away from others when it suits your own purpose like when you guys decided that all foreigner had to be fingerprinted and photographed that was fine but when other countries decided to do the same to you then and only then did you again start screaming about invasion of privacy and "inalienable rights" and then again if these scanners exist and are not used and something happens and it is found that had they had the scanners in place it could have been avoided, then you will be the first to blame it all on the inaction of Washington and the TSA and of course Obama.

But Obama was going to make the world right again. Why did he let these offensive body scanners and perverted pat downers get away with this stuff on his watch? Americans must really feel stabbed in the back by the Democrats who again failed to live up to the promised utopia they were supposed to bring with them. Poor tkoind2 is having his civil liberties invaded getting the Obama grope before getting onto a plane.

Surely there must be a way to lower the radiation on the full body scanners. I am not too keen on getting the scan but I am not into getting felt up by a stranger when I have done nothing wrong, either. And the idea of small children getting the so-called "pat-down" treatment is just allllll wrong! So is submitting them needlessly to that much radiation. I don't think that the US needs to lower its security standards, but they sure as hell need to find a better option than what they are using now. Surely someone, somewhere has the brains to work out a solution.

"You Americans are hilarious"

Hey. Thanks bud. I will be here all week.

"you guys decided that all foreigner had to be fingerprinted and photographed that was fine"

Yeah. That was me. But who told you? I was the guy who actually decided, well, me and my friend Bill, actually decided to fingerprint and photograph everyone. Then we had a party with a 12 pack. It was awesome.

"start screaming about invasion of privacy and "inalienable rights" "

Yeah. That was me. I was out this one night with Thomas Jefferson, and we were really ripped, and he started on this story about how he was going to call the invasion of privacy thing "the fourth amendment" and I laughed so hard beer came out of my nose. And then he started screaming "inalienable rights" and I said, NO, it's UNalienable!! and this lady leaned out of a window and told us to shut up.

"then you will be the first to blame it all on the inaction of Washington and the TSA and of course Obama"

No. This definitely was NOT me. This was somebody else. I was not the first. I don't even think Tyner was the first. I think Sully was the first. Guy saves a planeload of people, I think he gets the mike, don't you?

Mikhuntz, I get really tired of your selective amnesia. We KNOW why Napolitano and Obama are in the crosshairs now. It is because of that Nigerian teen. GOP screams at Obama, Obama says "not on my watch", Chertoff gets his government orders for more machines and makes out like a bandit, and now here we are with the GOP arguing the other way, but always against Obama. Let the GOP do something about gun toting texans bringing their firearms to Narita from DFW and I will believe they are not in it for the politics and the money.

I call shenanigans on the whole thing. It started as a Cheney thing against evildoers. Then it morphed into 26 layers of intrusion and it will never end unless people make an effort to roll it back. Obama does happen to be the man on the spot, but he is a toothbrush against a tidal wave of fascist crud.

peachy871 at 09:34 PM JST - 18th November. And the idea of small children getting the so-called "pat-down" treatment is just allllll wrong!

The pat down applies to all ages. However, for some children and young teens, the pat down might result in psycological problems with invasion of privacy and trust in people. Every child is different. Some children will have difficult time defining the boundaries and they might have long term problems. What about a 90 years old women in a wheelchair, does she get pat down too? In a future security procedures, it will probably get worse before it gets better.

The 'progressive' wing of the Democrat Party has, since the Wilson era, long sought complete control of the population. This is just one more step in that direction. Think I am kidding? Just listen to Sec of Homeland Security, Janet 'Big Sis' Napolitano:

" It’s all about security,it’s all about everybody recognizing their role. "

Red herring award to Klein2:

"Let the GOP do something about gun toting texans bringing their firearms to Narita from DFW and I will believe they are not in it for the politics and the money."

TimRussert:"The 'progressive' wing of the Democrat Party has, since the Wilson era, long sought complete control of the population."

Tinfoil hat award.

You do know that the Homeland security office was a Republican invention, Right?

You do know that the Homeland security office was a Republican invention, Right?

limbo - - since I fly to America two or three times a year, and since I have been flying internationally for over twenty-five years I am well aware of when Homeland Security began.

TSA are about to unionize.

That is the 'progressive' wing of the Democrat Party for you - gropers and voyeurs to be protected by federal law.

Recall Obama's bizarre campaign speech about the need for a civilian security force that could match the might of our traditional armed forces...

Tim give it a rest mate. Party politics has very little to do with this. I think you must believe breakfast cerial are lined up on the liberal left and the god blessed right. Please play a new song, you sound like a broken record.

Party politics has very little to do with this

Sorry, but 'progressives' need to be made aware that the 8 years they spent warning the world about the always imminent 'police state' BushCo were going to impose on America was one huge exercise in projection.

So the latest news is that children under 12 and certain religious faiths (Muslim women) may be excluded from the feel-up. OK, so EVEN IF these $170,000 each machines were foolproof (LOL) then, including, inside a body cavity, I can now name at least three ways to smuggle explosives onto a plane. What's even more insane than spending more than 85 million (170K x 500 machines) that are ineffective is that it's been reported (USA Today, NY Times, etc.), that 81% of the US public say they fine with these new procedures. Mind boggling.

Tim. Come on do you really see that much difference between the two parties? It is naive to think they are polar opposites. When in fact they are mirror images of each other in most of the key ways.

The party politic likes to keep you taking sides like some kind of twisted sports event. But policy does not shift that much in areas impacting topics like this.

Seriously friend, you need to stop buying into all that propaganda. If you want change, don't look to either party. Especially when it comes to terrorism and the hysteria in the US.

The classic example is that shoppers are not treated like shoplifters unless the store security personnel believes so. The scanners and pat-downs are saying that anyone who fly is a potential terrorist. How productive and effective are the scanners and the pat-downs?

People who believes that scanners and pat-downs gives them a sense of security are only fooling herself/himself. It is with this kind of belief that in the near future people won't have the freedom and liberty that was cherished by past generations. Freedom and liberty will have a different meaning in the future.

What role are passengers suppose to be playing? In the name of security, freedom and liberty are forsaken.

In the name of PC everyone must be treated with equality. Scanners and pat-downs gives a false sense of security. It is not 100% foul proof nor will it deter the terrorists. Who win in this case.

Test after test have proven that airport security can be compromised by other means. So why these scanners?

Also there is compelling evidence that these things don't work at the level promoted. So why use them?

skipbeat is 100% right. In the future we will be free to comply with everything the government tells us to do. And have the liberty to go to jail if we refuse. Wow, America the free, home of the fearful.

The WWII generation put everything on the line to defend our way of life at cost of many, many thousand lives, only to have our generation give it away because 3,000 people died on a terrible day. Shameful!

So Tim. Why is it a red herring. Here is something for you right out of today's headlines.

GOP Rep. Mica of Florida is calling for the TSA to be abolished and replaced by private contractors. Guess what. Every major private contractor contribute to Rep. Mica. Coincidence? Red Herring? Pound sand.

The same week Mr. DFW brought his loaded pistol through to Narita in carry on baggage, DFW announced a multimillion dollar contract to buy new camera systems for the airport. The contractor was a heavy GOP contributor. Red herring? I think you are hard of herring.

"That is the 'progressive' wing of the Democrat Party for you - gropers and voyeurs to be protected by federal law."

Timmie, Timmie, Timmie, the TSA is a GOP monster, baby. Bush and Cheney birthed it, fed it, and let it roust the proles while their base people were flying in private jets. Where is your private jet? If you don't have one, you are part of the plutocratic collateral damage. They duped you with the tea party and they duped you with WMD and they duped you with TSA. When are you going to get wise?

GOP/DEM, bah. TKO has the right idea. I don't care who started it. It is time to stop. Obama can't do it by himself. I don't even care who takes the credit. I think that the whole TSA razzmatazz has gotten to the point that it is just plain un-American.

skipbeat. You are basically right. There is NOTHING in the fourth amendment that prohibits searches OR seizures. What TSA lacks is any probable cause. The fourth am says that an inalienable right of PEOPLE, not just US citizens, is to be secure in their person and effects.

Because I am transgender, I don't think it is anybody's business whether I have a penis or not. Discrimination against men and women based on gender is a federal crime. Why does the US government set up machines to discriminate against me and show strangers things about my body that I don't want them to know? For many people, "touching junk" reveals way more about them than they might want others to know.

I am watching this play out. It seems pretty clear that the TSA has stepped way over the line. Given the fact that they have no oversight, I am not surprised. They will expand to suck up as many rights as they can. They have no reason to stop until people revolt. Think about it. Everyone wants to err on the side of caution, right. For that very reason, TSA was designed from the beginning to go way over the top. And it has. It has erred on the side of caution. Time to stop the erring.

"The pat down applies to all ages. However, for some children and young teens, the pat down might result in psycological problems with invasion of privacy and trust in people."

Amen peachy. What about rape victims? What about pedophile victims? What about transgender people? What about people with insulin pumps and colostomy bags?

Why do we bother keeping medical records secret when air travel requires a striptease for strangers?

How do you train a gorilla to be sensitive to that? If it were a doctor, with detached coolness, maybe that would be one thing. But remember that a doctor is a healer and advocate who is supposed to be ALWAYS on the side of the patient. Put a badge of authority, strong arms, and a uniform on a smirking ex-football player and let them rough up old ladies and three year old girls for the glory of the state? Forget it.

Welcome to the first signs of what is to come. The new American Police State. The United (sealed up solid) States of America.

If you value your freedom, you should be contacting the airlines, your congressmen and anyone willing to listen to reverse this trend. Or you can kiss liberty goodbye.

tkoind2

Don't be so obsessed with this topic. You seem to be bombarding the thread with endless messages.

And Klein2, why don't you reread what you typed? Do you have any idea at all about this issue?

Those scanners and pat-downs are there for your safety. Don't ever forget it.

smartacus. No one is forcing you to read my posts mate.

This topic is very important. Denial won't change that fact smartacus. When a government starts to implement things that violate privacy, personal liberty and our freedom then we have a moral and patriotic responsibility to push back.

The fact that so many here have this "let the government do what they want" attitude is scary. Some are the same people who freaked out over national health care.

Why ok with draconian security and not health care? Answer. Fear.

Stop being afraid. Every single one of you reading this will die sooner or later. Probably of something boring and pathetic. And usually long before you expect it. So why spend your life terrified?

Live and defend your rights and liberties. French fries are going to kill most of you more certainly than any terrorist. Stop being afraid.

smartacus: Those scanners and pat-downs are there for your safety. Don't ever forget it.

Safety comes in the form of radiation and being touched by strangers. It's okay to die of radiation. We tell kids not to let a stranger touch them. Kids are taught what are "good" and "bad" touches. People who have been scanned or patten down won't ever forget either.

Your paranoia about legions of evil left wingers out there trying to upset your Bushist world. I have heard less paranoid crystal users.

What on earth does this story have to do with any American liberals? For Pete's sake.

Moderator: All readers back on topic please.

More rigorous screening, more paranoid! Ugh!

I encourage you all to google, "Ask the Pilot". The writer, Patrick Smith, is an experienced pilot and staunch opponent of the TSA. He is also well-read in all things aviation related.

The fact is that the vast majority of bombs and other dangerous objects are brought onto planes via checked luggage. And guess what? Despite what you might think, the rate of terrorist incidents in the world of aviation has stayed relatively steady since the 1970s. The point being not that TSA regulations are working - people have proven time and again they don't - but that terrorism existed before the towers fell and we all got on just fine without letting strangers fondle our genitals before boarding.

This has nothing to do with safety, and everything to do with rampant Islamaphobia.

Yes!

At least you can count on Libertarians.

The Cato Institute - - "A “National Opt-Out Day” is slated for next Wednesday, the biggest travel day of the year."

And the honorable Ron Paul (R - Texas) has this on his site, regarding legislation he has sponsored

" My legislation is simple. It establishes that airport security screeners are not immune from any US law regarding physical contact with another person, making images of another person, or causing physical harm through the use of radiation-emitting machinery on another person. It means they are subject to the same laws as the rest of us.

" Imagine if the political elites in our country were forced to endure the same conditions at the airport as business travelers, families, senior citizens, and the rest of us. Perhaps this problem could be quickly resolved if every cabinet secretary, every member of Congress, and every department head in the Obama administration were forced to submit to the same degrading screening process as the people who pay their salaries. "

HumanTarget: This has nothing to do with safety, and everything to do with rampant Islamaphobia.

It's got nothing to do with Islamophobia. The TSA doesn't want to get sued for profiling. So it is required of everyone to play their role to be scanned and pat-downs.

As someone said, if you choose to fly then you choose to give up your rights. Some things should not be compromised.

@tigris.

Yes, I agree with your definition. However, the main thrust -that main thing they want to achieve is destabilization. You get that by executing flashy terrific acts --such as bombings. The lines, the inconvenience, yeah, they may be amused by it --but it's not their main goal.

Look at Israel --they have been dealing with terror and bombings since the early 1900s (before it was distinct nation). They have changed their behavior --they have guards all over the place in public places --people are under observation. Do you think a majority of israelis think "the terrorists have won"? No.

That is the 'progressive' wing of the Democrat Party for you - gropers and voyeurs to be protected by federal law.

TSA staff who commit sexual crimes --just as doctors would be, can be prosecuted for misconduct (felonious -skin, or misdemeanor -clothing).

Submitting to these pat-downs is not sexual molestation any more than a physical examination by your doctor is sexual molestation. Touching sexual organs is not molestation. When your partner touches you they are not molesting you; when you assist yourself to urinate or you clean excrement from your anus that is not molestation. My point is that molestation has to do with intent. When your mother or father bathed you in your infancy --that was not molestation.

I think many of you are overly puritanical and have some weird sense of sexuality and shame. It's just weird.

Back to the meat of the issue. Some people are saying that after 9/12 no-one would be caught flat footed. Yeah, that's true but it only applies to highjacking. What the TSA is trying to do is prevent detonation of explosive devices on aircraft. 12 or 100 passengers are not going to be able to stop someone on board who is about to detonate themselves.

Now, sure, there are concerns regarding the technology --how effective it is, how might it affect health of frequent flyers... but to say it's theater or that it's redundant is ridiculous and to me indicates biased or even political motivation. Reserve your objections for meaningful questions --not for your malformed blog-induced objections.

Civil liberties? Can you name a liberty being violated here? Privacy? What privacy is being violated? Your pixels (the contour of your body) is not personally identifiable. Now, I can imagine a few of you might be prudish and blush that people may be able to discern how fat/slim and or the rough size of certain body parts -yeah, sure --but do you think the same way when you go to the beach? Oh, wait, I see all those people whose shape of genitals can be ascertained. Anyone with a little imagination can imagine much better than what the machines output.

Moreover, the courts have said that while the screening cannot be without limits, it's under the fed gov't purview to figure out effective means --so by definition, you, by buying a ticket, are submitting/consenting to their regulations (what's affecting you is change -the gov't tightening the rules). Not saying you must agree or must like them, just saying that it's not an usurpation of your "freedoms". Flying, like driving are privileges not (inalienable) rights. Keep that in mind when you make your arguments.

This doesn't make any sense. Americans started all their wars and made a lot of people mad then started another war after other people got mad and now they got what they wanted. mad people out to get them. Congrats.

Now, maybe if you don't want the strip searches you paid for or will pay a private contractor for, maybe it would be better to stop wars then huh?

This is like a Hummer owner complaining about high gas prices.

This doesn't make any sense. Americans started all their wars and made a lot of people mad then started another war after other people got mad and now they got what they wanted. mad people out to get them.

While the article refers to the changes in the US. The same things affect much of the developed and developing world --terrorism is not only targeting the US. You should read more than Kyodo News and the NYT.

skipbeat. "if you choose to fly then you choose to give up your rights. Some things should not be compromised."

Utter nonsense! You should never surrender your rights. Never. Of course you make reasonable compromises. But this current security situation is not reasonable. Futher it is potentially harmful and clearly a violation of our rights.

Where does compromising your rights stop once it starts? If the government decides next that the only sure way to ID people is to put chips in them, will you go along with that? Especially if they say, no chip = no access to anything? Or will you fight that?

What if they decide that keeping everyone's DNA on record to track criminal activity, just in case. Go along with that too?

What if they ask you to surrender more rights to travel? Like revealing full details about where you are going, who you will meet while there, where exactly will you go. Then what? Still compliant and compromising?

Once you compromise too far, you don't get those liberties back and you invite futher degredation.

Quit being so paranoid. Again your bathroom, your lunch, your commute, your car, your family, your spouse, your dog, your personal care appliances, your kitchen, your heater, your neighbor and the air in your city are more dangerous to you than any terrorist. You have more chance of winning the lottery than even being close to a terrorist attack.

So why compromise your liberty for such foolish fear? What happened to the American capacity for courage and our patriotism to protect our rights?

I'm finding it harder to grasp people's crying "privacy". There is no personally identifiable information which is being broadcast. It's very ephemerally stored.

If you own and use a credit card, if you owe a mortgage, own a cell-phone, if you use Google, if you are on Facebook --if you conduct yourself as most contemporary humans do, you have volunteered your privacy more than you can ever imagine --orders of magnitude more than this scan could dream of (there is no correlation of image to personally identifiable info.

So, for people to come here and peep about privacy and rights violations is utter non-sense and quite honestly revoltingly disingenuous.

Moderator: Back on topic please.

tkoind2,

Totally agreed with you. It seems a lot of people believe in giving up their Constitutional rights to feel safe. Therefore, they are willing to do whatever is asked of them without questioning it.

Constitutional rights to feel safe

Constitutionally (as ruled by courts), the TSA has legal jurisdiction over security procedures at airports. I would love to see how you explain your fallacy.

m5c32,

You are comparing oranges and apples here. Privacy matters. Your privacy may not matter to you. Maybe the airport should have an option where people like you would go through the scanner or have the pat-downs. The rest of us don't.

skipbeat,

Ok, tell me what private information of anyone could the TSA gather (and mishandle) by instituting scanners and pat-downs?

There are no explosives coming onto planes with passengers. Explosives that wind up on planes overwhelmingly get there in cargo and checked luggage. How are you going to find those with a pat-down?

Undue search and seizure is in the constitution. Why are all people being groped and searched by dangerous machines? You say safety, but the evidence suggests that it offers no real protection. Airport security has and can be breeched. There are always new means of causing harm. Aircraft are not the only form of transportation. Terrorist have set precidents of attacking a wide range of targets. So why all the airline hysteria and excessive searching?

When someone says I must be exposed to radiation on the remote chance that I may be a terrorist they are assuming my guilt, violating my physical body and exposing me to danger needlessly. When someone feels me up in a search that is unwarranted search and a violation of my personal privacy.

What I don't understand is how so many Americans can just bend over for this. The last few generations would have been in the streets demanding that everyone responsible resign. But the mass media has been so effective in telling us that we should expect an attack any second of any day, that the sheep have all followed the line without complaint.

We claim to be a beacon of freedom, but in fact we have become a terrified collection of sheep who sacrifice our rights without so much as raising our voices. This is pathetic! This is tragic! And this is shameful!

What airports should have are rational, proven and safe means of checking security. And give up this radiation scan and the pat downs that go with it.

Explosives that wind up on planes overwhelmingly get there in cargo and checked luggage. How are you going to find those with a pat-down?

Cargo in passenger planes is also getting scanned and faces the same scrutiny as carry-on. Explosives are moldable/malleable and can be easily carried on body --just like knickers-boy.

I shall mention it again, courts have ruled (i.e unless the SCOTUS overturn this) the TSA has jurisdiction in this regard and is thus constitutional.

I don't think these scans and pat-downs will survive. Forget about defining it in terms of civil liberties, it's simply indecent and vaguely lewd. Released images of basically nude Americans on the web are especially damning. Opposition is bipartisan and will only build. Debate on liberty vs security can go on forever, but this issue hits people on a much less intellectual level: it's gross.

The courts have ruled that the TSA has jurisdiction. It has not ruled on the topic of these systems or the policies around them. That will be forthcoming.

Further, blind adherence to the law is a bad and blantant violation of the law m5c32. It was the law in the US for a very long time that one man could own another. And another that prevented women and minorities from voting. Both met with civil disobedience and public resistance. Resulting in more equitable and liberty validating changes.

It is absurd to say this particular methodolgy of searching is "constitutional" it has not been tested. It is legal, but that does not make it constitutional. Again this test will be forthcoming. My guess is, it will not pass that test as it puts undue burden on the innocent and assumes the potential of guilt. Beyond that the health risks and violation of privacy and search are likely to weigh the court against these methods.

That will be forthcoming.

That's fine. Let's let it play out in the courts. That's what they are there for. I'm not against that.

My main points here was that crying foul when there is no foul is silly. And in addition, I argue that the procedure is not irrelevant --that there is a purpose behind it and that it's not theater. However, it's not perfect and there is vast room for improvement.

None the less, the less than rational arguments people have really detract from any real insight and thus are detrimental to improvement on the system.

Released images of basically nude Americans on the web are especially damning.

That's a whole bunch of misinformation and misdirection. Those images were from other machines installed at a federal court and images released by way of a freedom of information act request.

m5c32- all of that is irrelevant I think. It shows people what strangers (TSA agents) are looking at and gives people a better idea of what's being done to them. It's the ick factor.

It's the ick factor.

The "ick" is imagined. People don't feel ick at the beach, people don't feel ick in the lockerroom showers, people don't feel ick at the head in the army.

What the TSA see is a semi-blurry outline (not a likeness) --if you can find lewdness in those images, you can find lewdness in a vegetable salad or apple pie.

m5c32. "Do you have no sense?" I ask you the same question. Does it make sense that an entire society has spent the last nearly ten years in hysterics over 911? That has killed off more our people in two failed wars than were killed that day. And for what end? Are we any more safe today? These draconian travel searches would suggest that government does not think we are safe. And your compliance suggests that you don't either.

Yet, we have managed to prevent every following attempt and the frequency of these attempts has clearly illustrated that the terrorist capacity for subsequent attacks on US airtravel are very limited and ineffectual.

So why are we still piling up more and more security?

These systems do not guarantee any more safety that those already in place before. Nor does the focus upon air travel alone keep us safe. Madrid, London and Mumbai should painfully illustrate this reality.

You have new systems that expose people to a virtual strip search, subject them to additional unnecessary radiation or offer them the choice of having their bodies violated. Is that what you call liberty or rational?

m5c32- "ick" is subjective and everyone has their own boundaries. What's fine for you isn't fine for everyone. What I'm saying is, opposition to this comes from more than a question of civil liberties or even convenience.

Here is a thought what airline is by far the safest when it come to Hijacking and bombings? Oddly enough that would be the one airline that by all accounts should be the most targeted "El Al" and why are they so safe because everyone of interest gets thoroughly search by all the high tech and low tech means available or is that just some sort of coincidence! Israel does not use these scanners because they find that "profiling" is way more accurate but then if the USA of any other western countries were caught "profiling" all those here so against these scanners and pat downs would again be screaming.

You can't have it both ways you either Profile and search like Israel or you scan and pat down everyone, pick one but unless someone here has a better idea I would say El Al's record speaks for its self as distasteful as it may seem.

"You know what TSA stands for: Touching Someone's Ass."

Jay Leno

Breaking news. Airports are starting to opt out. One in Florida, and, from what I understand, all in New York city. Bye bye TSA.

I am not thrilled about private contractors doing this at all, but it seems to have the support of the far right libertarian fringe, which means folks, maybe this little movement has legs.

Why am I not thrilled? Because even though the private sector is likely to do it with better accountability and customer service, all of our privacy will be administered and overseen by America, Inc. But, well, it certainly breaks a logjam.

"That's a whole bunch of misinformation and misdirection. Those images were from other machines installed at a federal court and images released by way of a freedom of information act request."

All right. I was going to let it go with a wink, but you won't have it, so let's consider what Gizmodo shows.

Gizmodo shows images on a machine that was ACTUALLY used to screen people. It was administered by Federal Marshalls, who are FAR more professional and responsible than the TSA ever was. Those Marshalls have apparently broken the law by storing those images AND those images were stored with facial images of each person. Gizmodo obtained those images through FOIA, which ANYONE can do. ANYONE. You do not even have to be a US citizen to do it.

More than 30,000 images.

Now M5c32 will say "it's not the same thing." I say it's worse. The machines can store images. Despite illegality, Federal Marshalls saved those images along with facial images, and through entirely legal means, those images were released to "just anyone."

On the other hand, we have a promise from TSA goons that "no image is stored or will be released". Funny. Federal Marshalls operated under the same promise, and look what happened. We all know that a simple cell phone can take any body's picture. I wonder if the TSA thought of that. I really doubt it.

Oh yeah. I am a left wing kook. Sure. But Forbes is reporting it now. Freaking Forbes. Go ahead and poo-poo that M5c32. This is turning into a tidal wave. If you want to critique my comments, how about going back to your first posts, where you said the US should use "six or seven layers of security" and I pointed out that they are already using about 25, not including luggage rifling. What about that?

"Ok, tell me what private information of anyone could the TSA gather (and mishandle) by instituting scanners and pat-downs?"

You can tell whether someone is diabetic, has a colostomy bag, is transgender, if they have a penile implant, if they have any prosthetic. Whether they have fillings in their teeth or not. Whether they have a toupee. Whether they are pregnant or not. You can also tell what they have in their pockets. Breast implants. Pec implants. I bet I could list 20 more things that are just none of the TSA's business.

Now if they announce or react to this at all, that information is then transmitted to everyone watching. Some TSA guys in Florida, I think, pulled a lady's shirt down and exposed her breasts and then laughed and joked about it, and joked about having it on tape too, "to watch later."

These are medical conditions that people do not have to reveal, and in fact, if a hospital revealed these things even to a family member, they would be sued. If you want to make a complaint about the TSA, they will make you miss your flight and forfeit your ticket. Most people just give up.

Outrage. It is building. The head of the TSA is not going to budge, so we will have a new one soon.

Dave Barry, Penn and Teller, Jay Leno. More and more smoking guns, so to speak.

The TSA scanned AND felt Dave Barry AND identified him to everybody watching. AND joked about frisking him.

The Atlantic Monthly is reporting a TSA representative as saying that the frisking is being made deliberately egregious to cow people into just going through the scanners. What? Americans were told they would have a choice, but they really don't. The TSA wants to see everyone naked, OR ELSE. It really is submission they want. It makes their job easier if people just have no choices at all.

Some members of US congress are calling for abolishment of the TSA.

Oh my. Oh my my.

And not a peep out of Al Qaeda. TSA is certainly having a bad week. One would think that Bin Laden would send at least a firecracker or pop bottle rocket for old time's sake. I suspect the TSA already knows that ain't going to happen, but they WERE hoping to keep people afraid enough at least long enough to get a few thrills and a nice Christmas goose (!), and now that is shot. Darn that pesky Constitution.

Gee Limbo, I think you are ignoring the fact that the US is not Israel and that plenty of other airlines have had fewer terrorist attacks than El Al has. I think Qantas' record speaks for itself. And Singapore Air, and DragonAir and Air Canada. No intrusions, but no terrorism either. El Al had a particular nasty patch from 1968--1971. Now they require all passengers to be personally interviewed and all luggage goes through a decompression chamber. Whether that is effective or not is interesting, but moot. What you want to say is that the US is Israel, is that it? They have a police state, so the US needs one too? Keeping up with the Joneses?

OK. I will give it a rest. I think that the ball is rolling. I certainly don't need to push it along. It looks like Americans have heard the bells and are waking up from their long sleep. Let freedom ring.

It is ridiculous. They now grope and harrass the entire flying population, instead of the only sensible thing which would be to intelligently profile likely suicide bombers.

Meanwhile, the first attack with a internally carried bomb has already happened, and the only way to check for that is of course with a rectal exam. Fun times coming up.

I wonder how many people have applied to work for TSA this week hoping to become 'junk checkers.'

Does it make sense that an entire society has spent the last nearly ten years in hysterics over 911?

I see you and your panic artist crowd more in hysterics than anyone else. I agree very strongly with m5c32 and limboinjapan. The rest are just panicing hysterical girls.

Pilots and flight crew --- now exempt Children under 12 ---- now exempt

Co-opt now in progress. The TSA is trying to defuse this and paint everyone as "panicing hysterical girls." Lotsa luck. Gee. If those people are exempt, why not anybody with a security clearance? Why not all military personnel, who have taken an oath? Why not all people with families accompanying them? Why not veterans? Why not firemen and policemen, the "heroes" of society? That would only leave a bunch of powerless taxpayers, who deserve to get probed.

235 soldiers returning from Afghanistan allowed to keep rifles and pistols, but had their nail clippers confiscated. This report from the Red State Review, a right wing blog. Not sure of its accuracy, but somebody is.

Woman forced to remove and explain a breast prosthesis. And she was a former flight attendant and breast cancer survivor.

I think MikeHuntz has missed the party line. Right wingers in the US are full on behind this movement. Tigermoth is a panicky hysterical girl? Hmm. Could this be the issue that splits the Tea Party in half? I think somebody needs to run and get in front of this parade, and it would be just fine if it were NOT the right wing, but we will wait and see.

"The rest are just panicing hysterical girls ."

I think that the choice of words is striking. It takes a big man to bite the bullet and say that giving up Constitutional rights should be part of every American's existence, but it takes an even bigger man to acknowledge that "panicing" hysterical three year old girls need to have their genitalia handled by a person in a uniform so that we can all feel "safe."

I am that panicy girl, and Tyner, and everyone else who has been told, forcefully, to give up something for nothing. Who are you? Someone who thinks that 25+ intrusive, invasive measures by government are not enough to protect an aircraft.

You, panicy little girl can refuse to fly. Simple isn't it? Or take the body scan instead of the full body massage.

My family and I decided a while ago that we would never go back to North America via the US. It's more expensive but I don't want to see my family gate raped...

I flew through London in 1980, when the IRA was alive and well, and was patted down as part of airport security procedures. It was neither invasive nor traumatic. Some of the hysterical writers above need to get a grip -- or find something truly outrageous to get excited about.

I think MikeHuntz has missed the party line. Right wingers in the US are full on behind this movement.

They are? This is a 4th Amendment issue, clear and simple. There was a very telling poll from the last pres election regarding voters' beliefs on the Constitution and how strictly it should be interpreted. The numbers - 82 percent of likely McCain voters said it should be strictly interpreted, to 28 of likely Obama voters.

Could this be the issue that splits the Tea Party in half?

You mean to say you hope (in vain) that will be the case. But you are wrong here as well. Have a look at the Gadsden flag - to be found at every tea party rally across our country - and then try and tell us this will split the tea party movement that so terrifies you.

aedfed:

" I flew through London in 1980, when the IRA was alive and well, and was patted down as part of airport security procedures. It was neither invasive nor traumatic. Some of the hysterical writers above need to get a grip -- or find something truly outrageous to get excited about. "

Were they groping your genitals? Maybe you missed what this thread is about.

Amongst the supposed stark raving mad AQ personell are a few cool heads. Does anyone else think that they may be saying "yup, we did the 9-11 thing but we ain't going to be doing that one any time soon"?

So, how about 10 "terrorists" getting on 10 trains with luggage loaded with timed bombs and getting off a few stops later? Or buses?

Amrica, an empire in decline. So terribly desperate to save what no-one else wants. And sad because there are so many fine Americans.

Flying from Brazil to NY on AA - which is like being in a prison - I was asked at check in questions like: are you carrying explosives?

Are Americans willing to have your bodies x-rayed and your children touched up just so you can get on a plane? If the answer is yes, as it seems to be from some posters, then you are a very, very sad society because the rest of the world deoesn't buy into this.

America used to be a leader...............but now????

Amrica, an empire in decline. So terribly desperate to save what no-one else wants. And sad because there are so many fine Americans.

Yeah the only ones that wanted it got kicked out of it in 1776. But we are safe from that anyway as that Empire has clearly gone down the tubes. Americans, the fine ones and the not so fine ones can decide how they will travel and if they want security they may give in to these checks. I agree the TSA could be doing the job a bit more politely but sometimes it's the customers they have to deal with that make them that way.

It is very important Americans are patted down and secure their junk; particularly because some Americans have difficulty distinguishing cameras from RPGs and AK-47s. Make us safer? Laughable. Smokes and mirrors and an illusion of posture.

Funny from a person who posts using a British comedy character, you should mint that and take it to the bank. Me thinks you doth protest too much boy, skin getting itchy? More patting and probing delays nothing but the passengers. Even you can see that, right?

People are worried about their privacy being violated by a full body scanner? Who the hell gives a crap?!

How about worries about being blown out the sky by someone who DOESN’T fit the magical “Arab Islamo-terrorist” Profile ™

After perusing this thread, I find myself simultaneously amused and horrified at how petulant, petty, and truly childish people can be.

People griped about the bag searches and the lines it generated. TSA tried to look for a more efficient way.

People griped about having to take off belts and shoes and the lines it generated. TSA tried to look for a more efficient way.

People griped about the pat-downs and the lines it generated. TSA tried to look for a more efficient way.

People griped about the restrictions of certain items being brought on board -- and in open defiance of those well-known restrictions, continued to think they could just argue their way out of them, as if they were special and the TSA agent enforcing the law was just arbitrarily being a jerk -- these little mini-dramas generating long lines. And again, TSA tried to look for a more efficient way.

Then TSA introduces full-body scanners, which would certainly speed up lines by reducing the need for the above several points, and what do people do? They gripe. And why? Because someone might see them naked!! Dear god, it’s not that kind of scanner!!

And with thousands of passengers wandering through the scanners every day, it’s not like the TSA agents aren’t going to eventually get bored with the earth-shattering revelation that human beings are, well, all pretty much the same.

In the meantime, as background noise to this seething mass of pissing, moaning, griping fliers, is the following drumbeat:

“Protect us!”

“PROTECT US!”

”PROTECT US!!”

NEWSFLASH: They're trying to amid an avalanche of self-centered jerks whining about everything under the sun!

People are morons. Absolute, irredeemable morons.

This body scanning is a joke, profile high risk individuals and quit targeting grandma and grandpa.

"“Protect us!” “PROTECT US!” ”PROTECT US!!” People are morons. Absolute, irredeemable morons."

Speak for yourself. What you miss when you read the thread is the simple fact that the TSA is not protecting anyone and wants everyone to pay the price for their incompetence. Your shrill whining and crying as though Bin Laden has a sword over your head is typical of the sheeple who will bend over for anything the government wants. I deserve freedom. You don't.

I want to make it clear that timrussert, Mikehunz and all the rest of the right posting (with the NOTABLE exception of TigerMoth) have spoken out of turn.

Ron Paul, a darling of the right, is coming down on MY side in this issue. The only libertarian stance on this issue is "get your hands off my junk." He is sponsoring the American Traveler Dignity act which would hold TSA people personally accountable for violating people's rights. Right on Ron Paul!

Once Rush and Sarah catch up, I will be expecting Tim and Mike and others to eat crow and admit that they have not been ideologically pure. You know, it really makes it hard to have a political discussion with people when they have to keep checking with radio show hosts just to get their party line straight.

Ron Paul, a darling of the right, is coming down on MY side in this issue.

Paul is a Libertarian. Get your facts straight.

The only libertarian stance on this issue is "get your hands off my junk." He is sponsoring the American Traveler Dignity act which would hold TSA people personally accountable for violating people's rights. Right on Ron Paul!

Right on, libertarian Ron Paul!

Mister Creosote, you need to understand what 'libertarian' attains to, NOT Libertarian Conservatism, and then discover who RP is and perhaps you'll be bright enough to see the equation doesn't equate to sense, logic or truth. The cheque, monsieur. Again, as many who have thought this through, it adds up to nothing but smoke and mirrors, a fallacy of safety, a straw man dipped in creosote ready to be burnt down.

Klein2:I will be expecting Tim and Mike and others to eat crow and admit that they have not been ideologically pure. You know, it really makes it hard to have a political discussion with people when they have to keep checking with radio show hosts just to get their party line straight.

What are you on about? I don't follow any Party Line like you think. Not Dem or Repub. Don't really care about US politics as much as you seem to obsess over it. But when people talk one side up or down with so much fervor as do some on here I certainly don't mind making fun of that extremism as it only shows the hypocrisy of both sides. Like for instance the Obama lovers will do anything to make this scanner issue something of the Republican's fault. But never admit that it is just as much of the Democrat's fault as well. I don't care how many people get upset because of the need for security. They can just not travel then if not willing to go through the security procedures. I'd like to say that I totally agree with LFRAgain's post above.

SimonDB:

" So, how about 10 "terrorists" getting on 10 trains with luggage loaded with timed bombs and getting off a few stops later? Or buses? "

Of course, that can happen too, and there is no way to prevent that (remember the London and Madrid train bombings).

But face it, planes continue to be the most coveted and spectacular target, and it is entirely reasonable to protect the flying public. If we could only dump the idiotic political correctness doctrine that tell us we have to be stupid and pretend that everybody´s grandma can suddenly become a jihadist martyr.

We know very well who wants to go paradise by blowing themselves up in a plane; we could easily look for them, if we were not hampered by PC.

Me: I'm not enjoying having you giving me this enhanced pat-down.

TSA guy: Would it help if you close your eyes and fantasize about another TSA guy?

TSA guy: Would it help if you close your eyes and fantasize about another TSA guy?

Nice one Sarge! (You're still a right-wing nut job, though ;) )

Ironically, the "enhanced" (intimate) pat down is the only efficient way of detecting the kind of materials that a potential bomber might use. Other than even more intimate, internal probing, this is as efficient as it gets. But, even more ironically, it is not being used for that. It is being used to punish people who don't want, or who don't want their kids, to go through the useless scanner.

I have read article after article calling for the dismantling of the TSA. Boston, Washington DC, New York, LA. Democratic representatives are on record as saying that the TSA really should have cleared this with the American people. Republicans are calling for kicking the TSA out of airports and letting private contractors handle it. Ron Paul (Creosote says Libertarian is not conservative? I will get back to that.) is saying the TSA does not deserve to be held harmless from liability. Boehner does not care, he just jumps the line. Real class there. He needs his own jet like the rest of the GOP. Biden doesn't care because he just has a beat up old chevy and can't afford airfare anyway.

And it will all come to a head on Nov. 24, apparently. It seems that the game was designed to intimidate people into opting for scanners to such a degree that things would go "smoothly". Oops. People are going to opt for groping out of spite or out of curiosity now: the same people, Creosote and Mike excepted, who want government out of their lives and waistbands.

Mr. Creosote is USUALLY all in favor of smaller government. What gives? He just loves the TSA, I guess. But it is refreshing to see that he has changed his tune and scknowledges, on principle, that big government is better for all citizens. Welcome aboard the liberal airship, Mr. Creosote. Now before you get on though, there is a little matter of a search we need to do...

Mike. This has been a big deal for me for a long time. I see the issue as representative of the role that government has taken in American life since 9/11.

Yes. I am carping and crowing quite a bit, but I see this as so much more important, symbolically, than any news in America for about five years. It has to do with rights and the posture of government in relation to those rights. There are 25 or more layers of security that people have to go through before they get on a plane, and 23 or more of them have come since 9/11. Whether we are safe or not has become moot. Americans need to make changes or face the death of the air travel industry, more complicated international relations, and general ostracism.

Pistole says that this search could have stopped the Nigeria wannabe bomber. That is a lie. Just a lie. And everyone just accepts it. It is a lie because the TSA never even interviewed or contacted this man in any way until he stepped off that plane in Detroit. People are numbed by the mantra of "better safe than sorry" and are willing to give up anything for what amounts to nothing. It is Bushism. Know-nothingism. People can be numbed by fear into doing terrible things (Karl Rove, Bin Laden, and Don Cheney all know that), and have been since 9/11. It has to stop. We have to open our eyes and stop being afraid or we will always be controlled somehow.

This is a huge test for America, not just a few headlines.

People need and deserve privacy and dignity. Americans especially because they fought a real war for it and believe in its worth. Their frustration about life in general is palpable, and most of it comes from their feelings and values being trivialized by a machine that hate created.

It is Bushism.

No. It is Obama. I realize this is just killing 'progressives' but you need to open your eyes. I flew dozens of times when Bush was in office. I resented having to take off my shoes but it was less jarring than experiences I had in Europe long ago in my backpacking days (tackled, basically, at a remote spot on the Swiss-German border, for breaking a line and stepping across a dainty little chain I mistakenly thought was there for the purposes of forming the queue ) or the indignities one endured transiting through the old airport in Seoul back in the late 80s, when the place was still under martial law .

Klein if it's a big deal to you I'm sorry you are going to have to mentally torture yourself even more believing that the evil government is out to make you fear someone enough to get them to keep the military industrial complex going and purchasing these machines from them for profit and whatever drug induced imagination you have. It's pathetic to hear the liberal crowd always talk in the conspiracy mode they are so famous for but let real concerns go as random incidents. I really wonder what kind of substances it takes to dream up these conspiracies but ignore the realities. I feel sorry for you my friend living in that world. Maybe you can just indulge yourself in more of that substance to escape.

I don't get it right-wingers. I though you LOVED this stuff. You know, having to carry your papers around to prove you're an American (Arizona)--this pat down stuff is right your alley. It is just what the doctor ordered. The only problem with right-wingers though, is that they want OTHER people checked and patted down, and not THEM. If this was restricted to people looking like Muslims, they would all be for it. Simple truth. But once it is them having to go through the paper check and pat down, then hell breaks loose. We are not sacrificing. You guys are a flippin hoot. The hypocrisy, I am sure, is fun to maintain though.

"It's pathetic to hear the liberal crowd always talk in the conspiracy mode"

Hey two weeks ago, we dealt with your conspiracy mode rants about Pelosi and Obama. Why don't you run and catch up with your tea party and GOP people who want the TSA disbanded? Or are you calling Ron Paul and John Mica conspiracy kooks?

"I feel sorry for you my friend living in that world."

I am probably not your friend, but I live in the same world you do. I just see it differently and don't share your sense of selective amnesia about it.

Funny you should bring up your experiences, MrC. I have also been hammered for crossing a cordon that was not clearly marked. But your Seoul comment is damning. When I first came to Japan, it was the first time that I saw guards with rifles and caged window military vehicles at airports. The first time ever. It was bizarre, and I had grown up in an area with a lot of military in the US.

Now, decades later, the soldiers have left Narita, but you fly to the US and everything is checkpoints, guards, soldiers with automatic rifles, orange alerts, and "show me your papers, citizen." It is not the world that has changed for the worse, it is the US. I don't think you can find anyone who disagrees with that, except yourself.

a TSA screener with 120-hours of training – someone who earns $13.99 an hour and who’s statistically more likely to leave their job than stay..is the biggest threat of all.

The Rat is right. One of the more recent advocates of an end to TSA groping is ChristianPatriots. Along with Penn and Teller, Dave Barry, several congressmen, Ron Paul, Ralph Nader and the ACLU and various citizens groups, it covers quite a broad spectrum.

Notably absent are GOP and Tea Party (take our country back, but leave the TSA alone) efforts, which can probably be explained by two words "private jets."

I am waiting for the hypocrisy to crack things open and show ANOTHER split in the GOP: Those who really want government power limited vs. the TPINOs -- tea party in name only vs. the regular GOP (Mica, etc.), who just want to make some money off of this.

Hillary just advises people to get scanned. But guess what? Some airports are scanning AND groping, not OR. Some are scanning, then groping if there is any anomaly. And some don't have any scanning, just random groping. So she is not being too helpful. Frankly, she is too busy to worry about it.

OK. I promise I will not post for at least another day on this. Sorry to test you patience everyone.

A passenger will be fine $11,000 if the person changes his/her mind after okaying to be scanned or be patten down if the person does not cooperate with the TSA agent(s).

Flying may cost a person life savings.

Notably absent are GOP and Tea Party (take our country back, but leave the TSA alone) efforts, which can probably be explained by two words "private jets."

But it was Nancy Pelosi who had a private jet. Don't you read the news? Boehner flies commercial. It is the Democrat Party that refuses to do what the world's best (Israel) do and profile people. Actually, they only refuse profiling when it will stop crime or murder. Affirmative action is racial profiling, if it is anything, but as with groping and scanning everyone these authoritarians get to decide on every single person in the system. They just love control. They can't relinquish.

TheRat:

" If this was restricted to people looking like Muslims, they would all be for it. "

Fact is, if this was restricted to young, muslim men, we would all be safer and did not see grandmas and children molested in airports.

Line up all the airplane suicide bombers of the last years, and tell us you don´t see a common characteristic.

But political correctness forces us to be blind.

Why do they need this anymore? I thought with Bush out and Obama as President, the world would love the US again...

yasukuni - Why indeed?

The a bsolute i nsanity of the TSA policy can be seen in one photo if you google for: "sublime irony: Catholic"

Is there proof TSA has stopped anyone that would have blew up a plane? I mean, everyone from the shoe bomber to the underwear man all originated from outside the US, so the TSA would have had no effect on them. The guys that committed the 9/11 crimes did not carry bombs, they carried knowledge. This enabled them to know flight patterns, pilot controls, and a way into the cockpit.

I say that the only real good thing to come out of the 9/11 attacks, with respect to security, are the doors being reinforced. And I feel having air marshals on flights is a good preventative measure. They just need to be on board, in a uniform, and have a German Shepard with them. That will pretty much prevent any shenanigans on board.

the sicilian: You are correct - TSA has not stopped any terrorists.

Final score: Terrorists - win Citizens - lose Big Government gaining more control - win!

TSA is useless.

"Boehner flies commercial."

I know. And Hillary doesn't. So what? The point is that Boehner flies commercial but will not go through security at all.

WilliB. It comes down to this: The TSA says, "We can violate someone's rights or we can violate someone's rights." You say, "OK. Violate someone else's, not mine." I say, "uh uh. Find some other way." Pistole says there is no other way, and he is just wrong. There are people at the Heritage Foundation and at Georgetown who KNOW he is wrong. People at MIT, too. Protecting freedom is not something you buy at a trade show. The TSA is going to have to back up and consider the problem again. This is not working.

Sicilian, you are almost correct, but remember box cutters. What IS correct to say is that all have been stopped by passengers. Vigilant passengers.

"I say that the only real good thing to come out of the 9/11 attacks, with respect to security, are the doors being reinforced."

They have not been. That is a huge problem. Marshals have been controversial. They generally do not like their jobs and are poorly paid. OTOH, shifting the huge TSA budget to an air marshal program might be a good idea.

"tell us you don´t see a common characteristic."

Some intelligence agency knew what they were going to do beforehand. And. I think they all had penises. However, a Russian airliner was brought down fairly recently by two women. So you put them in there, and it kind of blows the penis argument.

Latest news is that LaGuardia and Kennedy and all Port Authority airports will opt out of TSA if scanners are used. And then the contract will go to... well.. Guido and the boys instead, I presume.

A shirtless Utah boy was groped by the TSA and that was filmed.

And scientists at Livermore have an easy fix to distort body images, but not weapon/explosive images. Interesting idea. Makes people look fat or thin or short or long... anything but titillating. Livermore told the TSA about it in 2006, and they would have none of it. It is a dreadfully simple Photoshoppy kind of thing that would make a lot of people feel a lot better. But as we know, Pistole has told us there is "no other way" so we should just trust him on that.

Chertoff is slang for devil in Russian? Really?

Oh yeah. And the TSA is hiring extra workers... NOW... to deal with the Thanksgiving rush. Meaning that you will be searched by someone with less training than someone who says, "You want fries with that?"

Klein2,

"I deserve freedom. You don't."

Really now? And apparently, pompous, sanctimonious asshattery gives you the right to make that determination? I think not.

Hey, Klein, don't shoot the messenger. If you don't have the intellectual honestly to recognize the blantant hypocrisy on both sides of the argument, then there really isn't much left to say to you. You've obviously got your little ax to grind here, so grind away, Brave Soldier for Liberty! We are all in your eternal debt.

Klein: Actually, I fly Narita to the US 4 - 8 times a year, and all of those aircraft have better metal reinforced doors than planes used to. Plus, they like to station stewardess' at the door when the pilots need to take a leak. Not really a deterrent, but one or two more people to get through to get to the cockpit.

yasukuni:

" Why do they need this anymore? I thought with Bush out and Obama as President, the world would love the US again... "

LOL, indeed! That is roughly how the liberal wingnut narrative went. Probably nobody is more surprised than Barry himself. All the bowing in Saudi Arabia, all the Israel-bashing, all the brown-nosing of the muslim world.... all for nought.

Instead of getting stressed out, have some fun the next time you go through the strict security procedures at the airport. For example you could place your hands behind your head and stick your crotch out as if to say you're looking forward to what's about to happen. Or if they ask you to untuck that shirt, rip it off instead. And the same goes for the pants when they tell you to undo that top trousers button. If you're more verbally inclined, you could try these:

Excuse me, but would you mind going just a little higher, please? Oh, yes! That's the spot!

I refuse to have a member of the same sex frisk me!

Moan gently (or loudly if you prefer) as you're being felt up. A lollipop might come in handy here as well.

If you happen to be with a friend, have him or her record it and put it on Youtube later for laughs and to share with the rest of us.

This forum really has become populated by a load of liberal (clearly American)loonies who clearly cannot live in their own country and in all fairness would be better served going to live in a lawless state, such as Somalia in Africa where NONE of their self-perceived civil rights would be harmed.