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Do you think the International Criminal Court should be able to charge world leaders with crimes?

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As in... Do you think the International Criminal Court should be able to charge George Bush with war crimes?

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need to worry about that. In a truly peaceful world, it would be possible to take a leader to court for any misdeeds.

But the real world is neither perfect nor peaceful enough. After G.W. leaves office, he may be open, but until November, trying to sue or arrest a government's leader by anyone other than his or her own people is never going to happen.

The U.N. was created to try to solve international problems, but as we have seen, its ideals have fallen quite far. Bush ignored the U.N. condemnation of his Iraq invasion, and they haven't been able to do anything about it. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

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It's a farce and a waste of time.

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Yes they should provided the country whose leader is accused of crimes is a legitimate member of ICC.

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If you say, "Yes", then how do you propose to go into a place like Russia and arrest Vladimir Putin? Beam him up?

USAR

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Same way you go into the states and cut a shrub.

By the way anybody take inventory at the white house.

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DexJayPee, I'd pay good money to see what happens to you next.

Then I'd put it on UTube and see if I can rack up the most hits in their short history.

USAR

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If you say, "Yes", then how do you propose to go into a place like Russia and arrest Vladimir Putin? Beam him up?

Yes, with World Police America, and LA cops.

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they should provided the country whose leader is accused of crimes is a legitimate member of ICC.

Isn't that a bit like saying common thieves, pimps, murderers and rapists can only be arrested and tried if they've bought tickets for the Policemen's Ball, or if they've donated to the Lawyers' and Judges' Poverty Fund?

The ICC should of course be able to charge and prosecute world leaders when appropriate, but unfortunately the rule of Might is Right holds strong. Bush and Blair should both be in the dock, but it's unlikely they ever will be.

Sad.

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I think they should be able to, but there is no way to enforce it. Too many leaders are either too powerful or too popular in their home countries to be extradited. Plus there's the whole belief that having one's leader prosecuted like a common criminal is an insult to one's national pride.

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Cleo, there are no worse leaders in the word than Bush and Blair to you? Holey smokes.

What about Mugabe? What about Nelsen Mandela, one of the former Marxist leaders of the genocidal Black African Congress. -You think the South African government locked him up for all those years because he represented "freedom"? Heh, heh... Mao presented himself as a kindly old man, too.

Communist China's leadership? We've got executed Chinese prisoners whose bodies have been plasticized and put on public display in Ala Moana Shoppin' Center right now.

http://www.alamoanacenter.com/centerevents.htm

The Chinese deny these kinds of allegations but they always seem to find the body parts when someone in the First World needs 'em.

Venezuela's Hugo Chavez?

I think Bush and Blair would treat you a lot better.

USAR

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Sounds great. Who's first?

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Yes, the international criminal courts should be able to charge world leaders and the courts should start with President Bush on Iraq.

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I think Bush and Blair would treat you a lot better.

A pickpocket will be nicer to you than a rapist.

Remember when Clinton got nailed for lying? Remember when people said it was no big deal, that politicians lie all the time? And remember when we (I was one of these people) said that it was still a crime, and that "moral relativity" was a bad thing?

What happened to that?

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I think the ICC should apply to everyone.

There should be no saying like "I disagree and thus you got no jurisdiction over me".

Same for other international organizations like the IAEA, WTO, WHO, etc why should countries like Israel, USA, etc be free to chose which rules they fall under and which not.

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Of course it should - and remember, it is just a trial. If they did not do the crime, they go free. Maybe then we would have leaders who follow, not flaunt the law.

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Is this a coincidence? I was just studying up on this in other countries. Seems to be buzzing around these days.

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USAR -

It's an International court - gets people for international crimes (like starting wars of choice / wars of aggression and killing no one knows how many innocent people).

Mugabe is a pretty nasty piece of work, but I haven't heard of him bombing other folks' countries. Yet.

Mandela did his time.

Mao is dead. The present Chinese leadership could answer for present policy in Tibet and other ethnic regions, but unless you're a Tibetan the problem probably isn't as urgent as what's going on in the Middle East.

Hugo Chavez? Which country has he invaded lately, then?

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So Cleo, you only want Western leaders in prison.

OK. Gotcha.

But none of you've given a plan on how you're round up all these Western leaders.

USAR

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"Same for other international organizations like the IAEA, WTO, WHO, etc why should countries like Israel, USA, etc..."

-Another West-hater, probably a First World Westerner hisself.

I can see you support a one-government New World Order, ZeeBee.

-Not us. Not the US.

-Ain't gonna happen. -Wouldn't be prudent.

USAR

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USARonin.

The countries should give them up, if not face action by other countries.

You as an average Joe try to defy a court-order and guess what the cops are at your door-step. Should be the same for world-leaders.

And I don't buy the line, we won so we get to set the standards and prosecute the losers as they did after WWII, etc.

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USARonin.

How can I HATE the west if I am a westerner myself? Care to explain.

Not supporting a one-world goverment but everyone NEEDS to be held to the same standards.

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ZeeBee, how bad would you want to poke the comminist China bear? For example.

This is a moot question since no one's one-world government New World Order is gonna serve a warrant on a First-World leader.

As for America, are you familiar with the Greek phrase "molon abe"?

Molon abe.

And see what happens.

USAR

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Why mention the communist china bear? And avoid the US/British/etc goverment.

Oh, I forgot you are above the rules that you enforce on the rest of the world.

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ZeeBee, you've got those countries covered already.

It's the other you willfully ignore.

You're the one who wants to enforce a one-world government New World Order on the rest of us.

Not me.

USAR

<strong>Moderator: Please address other posters by their correct user name.</strong>

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So Cleo, you only want Western leaders in prison. OK. Gotcha.

No, Ronin. I just want the folk who go waging unnecessary war and dropping unnecessary bombs on other folks' countries to have their day in court. If the court finds them not guilty, all well and good. You could include the little creeps presently ploughing large parts of Africa into the ground too if you like - they do with machetes what B&B do with cluster bombs.

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ROFL.

Prove where I said that I support a one-world goverment. You can't because I never did.

Get real, the USA is NOT the top-dog and the rest of the world don't care about your yapping and posing.

Yeah, I can say the USA sucks, etc and neither you nor your goverment(CIA/FBI/etc) can do anything about it.

You need to realize that the world don't dance to the US tune no matter how much you want it.

Patriotism is fine and dandy but getting a real-world feel beats it anytime.

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Yes I believe the world court should have the power to bring a leader to trail in the case of crimes against humanity.

But let us get something straight, if you are some petty dictator that gets his rocks off snuffing his own people. Or maybe he maybe a HItler want to be. Then hell yeah bring his buttocks before the world court.

But if you try to bring any, and I do mean any US President to trail. You all may have a bit of a problem there.

In the words of Mel Brooks, “It’s good to be king”.......

I dont think that there is a world court that has the nutz to kidnap a US President and bring him to trail. So to all you that hate this current President, just have fun and type always all your little wet dreams.

Because all your typing is just that, a wet dream......

BTW I myself do not like the current administration but I would never turn on my President for no reason. To do that would be an act of a traitor.

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You know, there's a lot of talk in this world about democracy.Well, I think Americans are tired of the same old world leaders.Ordinary Americans believe in Europeans!Maybe what the little people want is a little less democracy,and a lot more social justice,the kind they can believe in.

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JoeBigs.

And THAT is the exact major problem that the ICC faces. People like you who can't see things in their true perspective.

NONE of the Mao, Mugabe, Hitler, etc supporters would have turned them over either.

Yeah, lets hand Hitler over AFTER he killed 11mill people(true figure), 6mill is the fig quoted by the Israeli who ignore 5 mill non-jews.

If you can't stop a person during the act of comiting wrong aren't you an accessory?

Just saying there should be a higher authority(not a world goverment) that holds leaders responsible and it should be held by all nations of the world.

IMO, the ICC is the closest we got so far, perfect = not really.

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BTW, do the FBI, Scotland Yard, Mossad speak for their goverments.

Neither does the ICC, WTO, WHO, etc represent a world goverment as you imply.

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Cleo,

Mugabe is guilty of genocide against the Ndebele tribe. If that doesn't warrant an appearance before an international court, I don't know what does. Sure Bush and others are guilty of waging war, but I think genocide is a much worse crime to have on one's rap sheet.

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USARonin.

Explain the "One World Goverment" I supports as YOU claim. WHO are they and where are they based? Lets have the facts and names? I don't know about them so tell me ALL about it.

Is it a "One World Goverment" because it would hold your country and your goverment responsible for their actions or WHAT?

How come the other INTERNATIONAL(like the "I" in ICC) groups I mentioned are not "One goverment goverment" groups that the USA supports and YOU got NO opposition to them?

Come on besides reposting the same stuff and accusations lets have your views and explanation.

Never seen you support your views with facts that hold up to the rest of the world.

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Grr. "One world goverment"

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genocide against the Ndebele tribe

Then he's a candidate for the ICC.

If Obama becomes the next president...

...hopefully he won't go around starting wars that shouldn't be started. If he does, he's no better than the rest of them and needs to be hauled up to answer for his actions.

And make no mistake; if Obama is elected, he will be just one more white Western world leader. Just his skin is a bit of a different colour, is all.

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Absolutely.

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Zen_Builder at 12:26 PM JST - 18th July Just saying there should be a higher authority(not a world goverment) that holds leaders responsible and it should be held by all nations of

Ok who will enforce this new world orders courts rules, the UN? I do not think so....Heck why dont we get the Chinese CCP government to enforce the new orders judges rules.......Well I do not think this can happen with out a real power to enforce the laws.

The only way you are going to get an army to enforce these new laws is to have the US back it up........Hm stalemate.....

To be honest the UN is a toy that all leaders love to use. There is no real power in the UNs voice unless the US backs it up, Japan pays for it and Great Britain also helps it.

I wonder how much China gives to support the UN?

No other country really matters when it comes to the UN`s suport, if any of those 3 decide one night never to give it money again, guess what? The UN is dead.

So what were we talking about.....LOL

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Why does it have to be the UN, military action or the US?

Can't you guys think beyond military force, guns, etc. Why do you need armies to enforce laws?

How about a multi-national force consisting of the best special forces/anti-terrorist groups from the world. And YES it would mean that members have to go against their leaders.

You guys seem to be trapped in we can't be touched by another army so we got a free card to do what we want. We are the toughest and nothing will happen without us saying it is good.

This is the VERY same imperial thinking that doomed other empires across the ages.

Guess what Mossad, etc taught a few guys different.

And this thinking is BS and upsets the rest of the world.

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They sound just like the mindless bullies in the school playground - We're bigger'n'you so shurrup shortie And for some weird reason they think people respect them for it.

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Charge them? Yes! Condemn them? OK. Sentence them? I don't think the International Criminal Court should sentence them . . .UNLESS it can carry out the sentence.

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The people who throw up "one world government" as an objection to the ICC are really being ludicrous.

Take the US, for example: We have federal system, but that does not do away with the state and territorial governments, and the thousands of county and city governments. What it does do is provide a way for disputes to be settled at a higher level. When two states are in dispute, they have a federal court they can take the matter to.

The people who point to the imperfections of the UN omit its many achievements. We have not had a major global conflict since the time of its establishment and, during the cold war, it provided a necessary relief valve and forum for the two major culprits in that conflict. Were it not for that forum, it is very likely that none of us would be here today to discuss this issue.

Unlike many of the Americans I read on this forum, I have not lost the belief that with power comes corruption -- and by that, the United States has become one of the most morally warped nations on the planet. It is therefore vitally important for saner nations to be able to build the kinds of institutions which can point out the actions of the temporarily insane ones. And so, yes, I think the ICC should be able to charge leaders with crimes.

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I think it's been well established that leaders are capable of committing crimes, so why not charge them?

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As a Korean, the ICC is a great idea that the world community would have the shared principles, and even more common regulations against crimes. Yet, the ICC will be applied to those countries ratify the ICC regulations. As far as I know, many countries, including Japan ratified the ICC. However, the US, China, India, Pakistan do not join it yet. So, the efficacy of the ICC is not clear.

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But of course it should. What else is the point? If any man or woman commits a crime against international law then he or she should be tried for it. If found guilty, justice should be seen to be done, and in the manner of the legal system of the culprit. So, for example, should a leader pretending to be a Texas tough guy launches an illegal war based on lies, then fire up Ol' Sparky.

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"international law"

Lessee... In Iran it's illegal for men and women to kiss in public. In Holland not only is that legal, it's legal to smoke weed. International law applies where in these cases?

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Wottock Hunt - "illegal war"

Is this the illegal war that brought to justice a dictator who was running Iraq into the ground from his many luxurious palaces, and enabled free elections?

Checking...

Yeah it is!

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Still illegal! Whats ironic is the liberators are now running into the ground financially and losing their constitutional freedoms, thanks GW!

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"Still illegal"

LOLOLOLOL

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This "International" Court seems like nothing other than an excuse for anti-Americans (ie, folks who are jealous of success) to vent their feelings of inferiority.

I didn't vote for anyone in the ICC. It's not legitimate. All such organizations must be resisted by all people who seek the right to self-government.

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Sarge:

Is this the illegal war that brought chaos to a geopolitically-vital area, created a breeding ground for terrorists where previously none existed, diverted men and material from the hunt for Bin Laden, torched a trillion dollars of US taxpayers' money, killed over a million Iraqi men, women and children and over four thousand US servicemen and women, reducing the US stature in the world and achieving Bin Laden's stated aim of destroying the US by destroying its economy?

Checking...

Yeah it is!

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But to the subject--of course the World Court should be able to hold up elected leaders to justice--ALL leaders, including Chinese Communists and USA war mongers. Whether they will have the courage and the political clout to enforce is up to the people of the world--Do WE want justice?

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YES! They absolutely should be subject to criminal proceedings - especially George Bush!

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YES!! As long as other international agencies (public and non-political) are allowed to effectively oversee all aspects of a case, investigation, evidence, witness, etcc....and insure that corruption will be dealt with as severe as murder, genocide, rape,bombings,and racism. I question the ICC's sincerity and its ability to enforce the laws equally and unbiased. Hard evidence ,no hearsay. intellegence alone varies so much from the actual source that by the the time we 'get it',tricked into acting on it, finding out that its fabricated,continue to carpet bomb , runnig thousands of missions, targeting one guy,hangin another on the way ,tryin to justify gettin another..... in other words , international means nothing if one side is totally immune from even being questioned.

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World leaders, particularly in the case of dictatorships, should be held responsible for their actions. However, it would be detrimental for the ICC to become nothing more than a political campaign to further some ideology of retribution. The United Nations have already proved countless number of times that they are wholly incapable of managing the most insignificant tasks, such as aid distribution. If we already have failure at the most fundamental foundation of a unifying government system, how is anyone supposed to take the ICC seriously? In the end, I predict the ICC will be nothing more than political rhetoricians attempting to force capitalism and democracy into a whirl pool of chaos in order to further some world-wide socialist system to support the EU. After all, the United States contributes 80% of all world aid to other countries. That doesn't even count the billions we give to countries in the EU to keep them afloat, and we are forced to to keep international favor. Personally, I believe any world-wide governing system is a joke. Countries must fight for themselves and aid only themselves. If the world doesn't care about third-world nations, then why should the U.S. be forced to pick up the tab to bring a smile to a few faces Americans will never see or meet. What we need is an enforced closed-door policy. Then we'll see who still feels the U.S. is the bane of the world.

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Also, it is humorous for people to cry war crimes when searching for some purpose of blaming President Bush. Yet when people see masses slaughtered by dictators in China, Iran, Syria, Columbia, and western Russia - not to mention the PLO, pre-war Iraq, and Hezbollah, everyone is silent. Good job guys on showing some concern for real atrocities. You are perfect examples of ignorance.

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Bush might have had an aggressive foreign policy and been a warmonger even, but it's ridiculous that so many people here consider him the most evil world leader. Perhaps you have all forgotten the Abkhaz War, Mugabe, Putin, Syria, the CCP, etc. The fact that you would equate George W. Bush (a democrat w/ a small d, not the party) with the world's worst dictators is appalling.

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IMHO, what is wrong with the UN and the ICC right now is that some nations feel they are above it all.

Look at the squabbling anything happens that they don't like they threaten to take their toys and leave.

Some nations think that the UN is there to do their bidding and if they don't get their way it is inefficient, etc. Which is funny because those same nations set the standards and rules but refuse to be judged by them or even follow them themselves.

Those same nations also refuse any changes that would make those organizations more efficient as it would weaken their own position.

In order for the UN, etc to work EVERYBODY needs to participate and check their ego at the door.

Not a case of all pigs are equal but some are more equal.

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ZeeBee, see that's the problem with nations signin' on to your one-world-government New World Order.

It ain't gonna work in the first place. But if you insist on enforcin' it upon sovereign nations then you're still gonna need Britain, Australia, Italy, the US, South Korea and others to do your dirty work.

And we be busy at the moment tryin to keep you alive on other more important real-world issues.

USAR

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USAR.

NO it is the few nations that WON'T abide by the rules that they themselves set that are causing the MAJORITY of the problems now.

Maybe go and reread "Animal Farm". ;)

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I'm much more of Bomb...Bomb...Bomb...Iran McCain.

He's a spitting of george bush between the walls of his skull.

I'll be voting for Barack Obama. < :-)

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Let me think, the ICC which is part of the most corrupt organization in the world being allowed to charge leaders with crimes... Hmm, well perhaps if everyone involved with it was first gotten rid of, the system completely overhauled to make it transparent, and actual laws were set in place to regulate what people can and cannot be charged with. Then, even still probably not. I don't think its possible to justify charging democratically elected leaders, who are held accountable by their own governments with crimes. Particularly not someone like Bush who has despite what the lunatics like to claim, committed no crimes.

All this talk about George Bush, and "illegal war" though is really just semantics. No war is really legal, not the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, nor the Chinese invasion of Tibet, but the Iraq war comes about as close as its possible to make it.

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Sure, they should be able to charge world leaders with crimes. I do that about once every two weeks or so. Why take away their pleasure?

Also, it gives people a place to meet, an agenda, stuff to talk about...it's probably very relaxing.

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world 'leaders' weilding enormous powers should be MORE accountable than average joe -proportionate to their responsibilities - yet the rich & powerful can hide evidence, control media, destroy lives & cultures-that's why they need armed forces.Expose brutality & corruption for a better humanity.

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Yes - and begin with Georgoe Bush, Gordon Brown, Robert Mugabe, the President of Iran and that other nitwit in North Lorea - the "Great Leader" (sic)

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How can it be called an Internacional court if it can’t prosecute internationally? Nobdy should be above the law. From the little guy the pulls the trgger to the big guy that sets the policy. NO MATTER which country they come from.

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YES. Why not? They are responsible for their actions. Bush should be arrested and tried NOW.

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13akio13.; Bush is not a war criminal. God even chose to speak to him, and tell him to rid Iraq of the evil of Saddam.

Heck a guy like Putin, who has betrayed his country needs to go to ICC.

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